pro and cons of doing the henry kaye seminar [Archive] - Somersoft Property Investment Forums

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WebBoard

26-06-2001, 10:29 PM

From: Anonymous

Tristan, how much is this 2year course costing you?

Do you think this info will make you a investment professional. It may help you get going but at a price.

Posting here cost little.

Doing is what gives you the confidence to do it.

As to the so called things you will get out of the course. Read some of the posts from people out there in the field actually doing it. You will find that most of the lectured theories are just that. Very hard to actually do in the real world.

Maybe some of the streetwise gurus here should get together and run courses at half the cost.

WebBoard

26-06-2001, 10:39 PM

Reply: 1 
From: Sergey Golovin

I'll put $10 on table that by the end of August beginning of September (end of winter and beginning of Spring) Henry Kaye seminars would cost around about $20K.

Serge G.

WebBoard

26-06-2001, 10:56 PM

Reply: 2 
From: Miss Terious

Dear Tristan,

My words of advice to you would be.....

RUN SCREAMING, AS FAR, FAR AWAY FROM A $20K SEMINAR AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN.

I did one that cost a tenth of that, and although I did learn a lot of useful information, I still think that I have learned most from posting, reading and chatting on this forum. And that $2k could have gone towards a deposit on an IP!! *forehead slap*

Instead of spending $20k on a seminar about negative gearing, go and spend a couple of hundred at your local book store. I might be going out on a bit of a limb here, but everything Henry Kaye talks about would be contained in those very books. And you never know, you might just be able to teach him a thing or two with your new found knowledge!!

'....Now Henry, there is this little thing called POSITIVE GEARING....'

Miss Terious
(Bein' cheeky) :P

WebBoard

27-06-2001, 12:10 AM

Reply: 2.1 
From: Scott Marshall

EEEk my friend is doing it and it is 15K !!! unbelievable. I heard on the Rich dad poor dad site he is a Real Estate Agent. It makes sense seeing they rarely actually buy real estate and reap the benefits. And now that there is one doing it he decides to charge us for this "new" info.
How can he justify 15K price tag. That's a Harley Davidson!! I also heard from my friend that Kaye wants to make a Billion Dollars so he can list on the New York Stock Exchange and needs lots of dedicated "Investors" as support !!
So now he wants to rip off the septics too!!
I hear these type of ads on the radio every day and I think to myself..what's in it for them? To make ME rich...unlikely. Seminars are good, like this forum, and are funded by ads for banks , surveyors, accountants etc. who specialise in the Inv. Props. useful stuff which is constructive benefit.
In short with a 95% loan you can buy a 280K IP with your 15K
I'll let you know how my friend gets on.
Scott

WebBoard

27-06-2001, 01:17 AM

Reply: 3 
From: Terry Avery

Tristan,

In my opinion, read every post on this forum and the archives as well. Then
make a decision as to whether a seminar is worth the money.

Terry

Investment_Inst

27-06-2001, 08:20 AM

Reply: 4 
From: Nigel Kibel

Tristan,

Not everyone can learn through reading books. Many people enjoy and gain far more benefit from classroom style learning.

I agree with other posts saying that this forum is one of the best learning areas any new investor could use. And it's free.

But, if you are really wishing to undertake a training course, my advice is to thoroughly check out the alternatives. $15,000 is an enormous amount of money, and in my mind, cannot be justified.

If you wish to gain all this knowledge, plus more, and also have the ongoing support so vital for your success - visit www.theinvestmentinstitute.com.au and have a look at one of the alternatives to HK. It will save you 75% of the cost of a HK course!

Another thing you should consider. Even in a classroom style learning environment, how can you possible get personal attention and ask questions when you are one of 500+ in the room? To be truly effective, class sizes need to be small and interactive and everyone has to have the opportunity of asking questions and interacting. This just isn't possible in large class sizes.

Nigel Kibel
The Investment Institute

WebBoard

27-06-2001, 10:37 AM

Reply: 4.1 
From: Funky Whuff

Hi Tristan,
Just reading up where you are up to - and that was me about two or three weeks ago. See, I actually signed up to do the investment mastery four day event, but scrolled through and read all in the archives re:Henry Kaye, and this is what I came up with...
1. Henry Kaye has some amazing strategies, which I believe implemented with the correct attitude and desire, will succeed, however...
2. With the right attitude and desire, you can learn anything you want, without spending 15k, by reading investment books, using this forum, surfing the Net (amazing amounts of info), going to introductory seminars (but not necessarily the full courses)
3. I agree you need some professional experience and training, however, no amount of learning and knowing this sort of information (i actually went to the first day of the property genius) will actually make you more likely to put it into action - you really do learn by doing...
4. Without doing the course I have an extra 550 odd dollars a month over the next two years to invest/put into property/cover if my (un)educated efforts at property happen to lose me money (am confident they won't cause have done the research)
5. Henry Kaye's theory is actually based around negative gearing Stuart - the basis is that if you fix your expenses (interest rates over the long term) then with market growth and maximising your rental return through adding value, you will end up with a positively geared property, and sometimes in the early stages based on the taxation benefits can end up with a positive cash-flow (ie. tax rebate + rent exceeds expenses).
6. I read the brochure of the seven-day Boot Camp Mr.Kaye promotes following the four-day investment mastery, and to my surprise, it claims to cover concepts that are supposed to be covered in the four day course. I am of the opinion that if I need to fork out another 25-30k to do another seven days after i've paid 10-15k for the same information in the four day course - obviously i don't get that information in the four day course... or enough information...
I was not sleeping well at the thought of committing that much money over two years, being only 22 and having just bought my first property (owner-occupied) - and I was going to have to fly to Sydney and cover accomm and airfares (am from Melbourne) after a suitable venue could not be found in Melbourne so the whole course had to be moved to Sydney.
I believe that if you choose to do the course, you will discover many benefits, however beware of the further marketing you may face during the course, and wonder if you could achieve the same (if not better) results yourself... i liked a comment by someone while i was searching through the archives... sure if you make 100k on your first deal with the course at 15k that is a great return, but how do you think you'd feel making the same deal without spending the 15k.... what is your return on your investment then???
And really, that is what we're all here for - ROI!!
Anyway, hope this helps, however, just as long as you are comfortable with what you decide and you have the correct attitude and wealth psychology, you can't go wrong!!
Liz

WebBoard

27-06-2001, 01:29 PM

Reply: 4.1.1 
From: Sergey Golovin

I've done seminars in the past and my biggest complaint has been the fact that they pump you up, dump a huge wad of notes in your lap, and then sail off into the distance never to be seen again.

Thank you Stuart. It is great. Love it.

When I heard it first time many years ago, talking about sale of the cars with friend of mine, he said - Sign them up, give'm the keys, say thank you, turn'm around and ... and you do not want to see them again... I thought it was cruel and very unfair. But the more I am reading about property investment seminars on the forum and papers, run by the other people, the more it reminds me of my friend - car salesman philosophy.

What’s new? Same ideas get recycled over and over again… The Nature is not as generous as we think she is. Any new ideas requires lots of time and effort, collective effort I must add.

Serge G.

WebBoard

27-06-2001, 06:55 PM

Reply: 5 
From: Mr S

Just read Books and then act - Especially Jan Somers.

Cheers - Martin

WebBoard

27-06-2001, 07:45 PM

Reply: 5.1 
From: Anonymous

Any people that have parted with $15000 or more for these courses actually doing anything?

If so how about filling all the people here in on what, where and how much you have made.

Then if it is SOOOO great we will ALL sign up and do every course.

Even if we have to sell a IP or two to attend.

TerryO

27-06-2001, 08:56 PM

Reply: 5.1.1 
From: O B

Its easy to get carried away and start dreaming sometimes.
like you start thinking whats 20k when i'll be making millions.
once i do this seminar i'll have a license to print money
STOP DREAMING NOW!!
Sure $40,$100 to get you motivated but 15,000 of YOUR hard earned cash.
Start out small,safe low risk,see how you go and then build towards your goals.
Be PATIENT and before you commit yourself ask some of the more experienced investors on this site what to do with your 20 grand.
Hope this helps good luck!

WebBoard

27-06-2001, 11:05 PM

Reply: 5.1.1.1 
From: Mr Hat

IMHO...seminars which promise the world appeal to the same people that get sucked into pyramid selling ventures like "Shonkyway" where punters get stardust from promises of luxury cars and lifestyles. I have been to a couple of these Shonkyway "motivational" seminars to placate friends. The tragic behaviour of some people that get excited about the potential riches are the exact targets of these sales pitches. In the end, many drop off when reality hits, their enthusiasm wanes along with many wasted hours and sometimes many wasted $$.

Please buy all the books you like and attend all the low cost seminars you can because you will pick up bits and pieces everywhere.

$15K will take you a long way to a first investment property...this is where your wealth will start, not the empty promises from those who make their money from those only too willing to give it up.

Cheers beers

Lissy

28-06-2001, 07:51 AM

Reply: 5.1.1.1.1 
From: Felicity W.

Well, good on you for doing something, I guess, although personally after the introductory night I had two concerns about the HK course.
1. Most of his gains were made at a time when Melbourne property was booming big time, and buying off the plan and reselling before settlement requires some pretty good capital growth - I'm not convinced this strategy works in non boom times.
2. How many graduates are out there now, trying to squeeze deals on the very limited style of property HK recommends? If property prices are driven by supply and demand, I'd say there's some pretty impressive demand going on right now - if I was a savvy developer, I'd work out my prices, put a whopping big increase on them, then be very happy to negotiate down to my original price or higher, and make some course attendee very happy as well as myself. I certainly wouldn't negotiate below my price with so much demand happening.
Keep smiling
Felicity 8-)

WebBoard

28-06-2001, 09:05 PM

Reply: 5.1.1.1.1.1 
From: Terry Avery

I agree with Felicity, things have boomed and I believe that the seminar
presenters made their money before the boom so now they have switched to
telling everyone their secrets. Why would they do that if there was big
money still to be made in their style of property investment? Why increase
the competition in that sector of the property market? Perhaps they know it
is not sustainable and have switched to high priced training (it is not
education they are offering) and marketing the deals through their own
companies.

It is great that people are motivated to get out there and do it and no
doubt the converts will tell me to return to my cave. But has no-one heard
of the Hong Kong property market crash, the Japanese property market crash
or even the property crash in Australia in 1991 (which followed a boom) when
property values fell below the value of their loans. That was a scary time
for many home owners to have a mortgage greater than the value of their home
after years of paying off the mortgage. How will the banks treat IP
investors who are highly geared with security less than the value of their
loans?

I read in the papers that vacancy rates in Sydney have soared, they are
increasing in Melbourne yet developers are building huge apartment blocks
all over the inner city of Melbourne. Supply has to exceed demand soon (if
it hasn't already) and cause a bursting of the bubble that is building.
However with all the seminar graduates buying up these apartments it may
take a while before anyone realises that these properties don't have tenants
because they are promoted on past vacancy rates. Isn't anyone out there
nervous that buying off the plan now at the height of a boom and selling in
two years is a long time and highly risky?

As to the value of paying $20,000 for a one week seminar, as a trainer and
educator for 26 years I am amazed that anyone would part with that kind of
money or go into debt to do it. I know the detractors say that a university
education doesn't teach you much but they miss the point. University is
about teaching you how to think and critically evaluate without accepting
blindly what is presented to you. A seminar however is teaching you to think
one way and not to question their methods based on it worked for me several
years ago and it will continue to work (so long as you don't think about how
property cycles work and learn from history and observations of human
behaviour).

Well that is enough of my diatribe.

Cheers

Terry

WebBoard

28-06-2001, 09:48 PM

Reply: 5.1.1.1.1.1.1 
From: Anonymous

Stuart , Stuart, Stuart,

Let's cut the crap.

Just post us how much you have made and how.

1) From property

2) From selling H.K. Courses??????

All this motivational stuff does nothing if you cannot back it up with some $$$$.

There are people that can post all day on what EVERYONE should do but do nothing themselves.

Furthermore what they post is just theory.

Let's finally hear some real life stuff and not just CRAP THEORIES.

But also there are a number of REAL Investors that have been out in the street actually doing this stuff for decades. Not just weeks.

WebBoard

29-06-2001, 03:59 AM

Reply: 1.1 
From: Anthony Jackson

I've been told by my consultant that the course will VERY soon cost $20,000

Cheers,

A

michaelg

29-06-2001, 07:44 AM

Reply: 1.1.1 
From: Michael G

The question basically is;

How much does anything cost?

As much as someone is willing to pay.

So why stop at $20k?

Michael

Sim

29-06-2001, 11:10 AM

Reply: 1.1.1.1 
From: Sim' Hampel

The reason prices are rising so rapidly is that there are so many people out there willing to fork over their hard earned cash so some "expert" can make them get rich quick without any effort on their part.

Henry Kaye is running a business making money from his seminars. That's fair enough. What he is in the process of doing right now is seeing how far he can push the envelope.

While he is still getting huge demand for his courses, why not keep jacking up the prices until the demand levels off... there you have found your sweet spot - and lots of money will be made.

He is not running a charity, he's in it for the money. He's doing well - he has a great business plan - we should pay close attention to how he operates and why it is that people are willing to fork over so much money.

Remember that there are lots of people out there with lots of money and very little time. Kaye is merely providing a service by taking some of that money away from them. Notice that he doesn't require full payment up front. It's "low down, monthly payments" or something like that. Everyone can afford it (mostly).

This seems to be the next wave after multi-level marketting (MLM). Most people are either converts to MLM or are dead against it. The world generally knows how it all works, and there have been enough shonky operations around to scare people away from the good operations too unfortunately.

Anyway, now that the world is savvy to the get rich quick failures (mostly) of MLM, they are looking for something new. Well... why not resurrect an old favourite then... property investment !

I think Henry Kaye is onto the post-MLM wave and is doing a fantastic job of making himself lots of money while seeming to do a mostly honest job of it. I don't think he can puch the envelope too mach further though before the authorities start paying very close attention to his operations to make sure that the unsuspecting public are not getting ripped off.

For his property investment education and the costs therein - I personally think you are better with a decent book collection and a network of savvy likeminded people.

For his business and marketting skills - I think we can all learn a lot from him !

Anyone care to suggest how long it will be before some poor soul who lost money (through their own stupidity usually) after doing a HK course, turns around and makes a huge stink, gets ACA, Today Tonight and all the tabloid papers involved and then the authorities start investigating ?

Just my opinions !

<IMG SRC="http://members.ozemail.com.au/~sphampel/images/sim.gif" ALT="Sim'">

WebBoard

29-06-2001, 11:47 AM

Reply: 5.1.1.1.1.1.1.1 
From: Kevin Forster

If I had $10k - 20k to spend learning about IPs I would buy some books and read those and then contact some people on this forum via email and invite them out to dinner - my shout of course and pick their brains with a lot of questions. If the restaurant was really good some people wouldn't mind if you tape recorded the conversation so you could take notes later.

Maybe for some people you might need to take them out to dinner a few times to get all the information. Now you're getting some real one on one tuition and mentoring.

Kevin

yuch.

29-06-2001, 12:54 PM

Reply: 6 
From: Yuch .

The thing with all these seminars is, people get motivated for a while then the passion slowly dies. As a result, most people end up achieving nothing.

In my opinion, it's not how much you have spent on these courses but what you have done with them! If you attended the course but did nothing with it and hence not able to produce results, then whoes fault is it? YOURS! It's all about getting into the market and make things happen!!
Therefore, to make that 20K worthwhile is really up to you.

No one can tell you if $20K for a course like that is reasonable or not. If people are willing to pay $20K for it, then it makes the market price. But most important thing is to set yourself a goal as to when you want to achieve 100% COC return from using that particular strategy after you attend the seminar and stick to your goal.

I have attended quite a few courses. In comparison with Roy McDonald's courses, HK is cheap!!

Good luck seminar shopping!!

Regards
yuchun
~ The secret to success is to start from scratch and keep on scratching. ~

Ross Sondergeld

29-06-2001, 03:03 PM

Reply: 5.1.1.1.2 
From: Ross Sondergeld

Hi Stuart Davison,

Stuart said, "WOW - U either love Henry Kaye or hate him. One thing is for
sure he has everyone talking... As you all know I've signed up from my
earlier post. My mentors who will be working with me hand in hand over the
next 12 months already have purchased around $2Million of property and have
created a significant amount of equity in the transactions due to their use
of Henrys high leverage low risk strategies in less that 6 months using only
a few 000's of their own. Only a few months ago I would have thought this to
be impossible but that was because I didn't have the knowledge or
understanding of what is possible."

Stuart, I've got a question for you...

Whom do your mentors represent? Do they work for you or the seller?

Have you employed them via a written employment agreement?

Simple question, but I'd like your reply.

Ross on the Gold Coast

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WebBoard

29-06-2001, 03:35 PM

Reply: 6.1 
From: Sergey Golovin

I am glad that gambling is not compulsory yet in great country of us .

Regardless if it is compulsory or not, think of adrenalin rush, excitement, when you do go to the course. That dream ...is just step away. And you almost can see it and smell it…

I personally think that anyone who wants to do it should do it.

Only problem is - they asking a question about seminars and we have to answer it or at least try too, I think.

I guess it is very personal experience. People who finished universities they usually relay on them selves and they mental abilities more then others. And the once who did not - they do relay on someone else’s advise (regardless where it is coming from and how much it is cost).
It is just a fact of life and not a lot we can do about it. I think we have to help them to find the right way to achieve the goal but they have to do it them selves. We can not take their hand and walk them through the jungles. We can answer their question but this is as far as it goes.

Well, I do not know.

Serge G.

WebBoard

29-06-2001, 04:21 PM

Reply: 1.1.1.1.1 
From: Terry Avery

In my opinion what is there to investigate? Sure ACA may make HK and others
like him look bad, that's what gets ratings, but what substance can they
find fault with? If people enter knowingly into a contract for provision of
a service, in this case training, and HK provides that training, then he has
fulfilled his contract. Anyone who finds they cannot succeed cannot then
blame HK because there are many factors involved in becoming successful and
one of them is understanding fully what you are doing and the risks
involved.

I would imagine the contract you sign would give HK many outs for failure on
the part of the individual. For example if the bank won't lend them money
because they have none (spent it on a seminar didn't they?) or they have too
much debt (repayments on the Visa for the next three years to pay for a
seminar) then how is HK to blame?

I would be curious as to what will happen if people are paying for the
seminar using their credit cards in easy monthly installments. At 18%
interest that has gotta hurt especially if they don't pay off the credit
card balance every month. Does anyone out there realise that if you max out
a credit card at say $4,500 and only pay the minimum payment per month, of
about 1.5% per month and don't add any more to their card it will take 44
years and one month to pay back? The amount repaid will be about $17,000.
Now imagine putting a $20,000 seminar on the card. What will be the cost in
the long term? How much do you have to make to recover the cost of the
seminar plus interest? Not to mention the opportunity cost. You need to
obtain a return at least equal to the interest rate on the credit card just
to break even, the catch is you don't have the 20 grand to invest anymore.

Are seminars worth it? I have attended various seminars for work related
purposes before and I have come away thinking they are nice little earner
for the presenter and did not offer full value for money, in other words
they were overpriced. However the information they provided was proprietary
information not attainable from elsewhere so my employer had little choice.
Are Peter Spann or HK offering proprietary information not available through
extensive reading or study, I doubt it. They do however offer information of
their methods packaged into a time frame at a cost that the market will
bear. For me the cost benefit analysis does not add up but for others it may
well do so and I wish them good luck. But if 500 or 1,000 people attend
these seminars and there is one run a month somewhere in Australia then we
are looking at 6,000 - 12,000 graduates all competing for real estate deals,
getting their discounts and so on. They must be sending the developers broke
or there is going to be a flood of seriously rich people with portfolios of
$2m, $10m or $50m in property over the next few years.

Will the authorities investigate? I doubt it as there is little to
investigate. HK is offering his services and people are prepared to pay his
asking price. Now if there were performance guarantees that would make it
more interesting.

Cheers

Terry

WebBoard

29-06-2001, 04:21 PM

Reply: 1.1.1.2 
From: Terry Avery

How much does anything cost? Whatever the market will bear. John T. Reed in
his book on increasing returns on real estate explains that he keeps
increasing the rent until the market won't pay anymore then he comes back a
little to what the market will bear. It seems these seminars operate on a
similar principle, keep increasing it until people wake up and question the
value they are getting. Apparently they haven't reached that limit yet.

Cheers

Terry

Sim

29-06-2001, 07:02 PM

Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1 
From: Sim' Hampel

I was being cynical about the ACA and such... if someone screams loud enough... they will always find a story.

If lots of people scream, regardless of whether Kaye did anythig wrong, the authorities may be forced to investigate.

<IMG SRC="http://members.ozemail.com.au/~sphampel/images/sim.gif" ALT="Sim'">

Rolf Latham

29-06-2001, 11:24 PM

Reply: 1.1.1.1.2 
From: Rolf Latham

Hi Sim

Investment Source is in my opinion not post MLM, rather another embodiement of MLM, at least thats what I have heard and experienced lately.

Ta

Rolf

Rolf Latham

29-06-2001, 11:35 PM

Reply: 6.2 
From: Rolf Latham

Hiya Yuch

Fair Comment isnt it. 97 % of people fail financially at MLM, 75 % of people that join gyms dont use them beynd 3 months, 98 % of people that start a uni degree dont get honours, 40 % of marriages fail.

Value for money can only be decided by the perception and subsequent use of the buyer.

Ta

Rolf

aam

29-06-2001, 11:42 PM

Reply: 6.3 
From: Apprentice Millionaire

Hi Yuch,

>In my opinion, it's not how much you have spent on these courses but what you have done
>with them! If you attended the course but did nothing with it and hence not able to produce
>results, then whoes fault is it? YOURS! It's all about getting into the market and make things happen!!

Hear! Hear! It is so much a characteristic of the average person out there to avoid responsability and put the blame on everyone else. I was always taught: you get out of life what you put in it. It is the sow and reap principle.

Well said, Yuch!

Cheers
Apprentice Millionaire
(aka Jacques)

Lissy

30-06-2001, 09:19 PM

Reply: 6.3.1 
From: Felicity W.

Someone asked the question about paying for the course...
I know when I looked at it (it was only about $4000 then!) there was some fine print on the back of the monthly payment scheme, which basically meant that you signed over the right for them to sell your house and recoup payment if you defaulted on your monthly payments.
When I queried this, the reply was "but you're going to pay, so why worry?"
I didn't do the course...
Keep smiling
Felicity 8-)