Not much has changed

[jahn]

Hi all
I have been occupied with lots of sidetracks lately, and haven't had a chance to check up to see how things have been going on the forum.
I got on to some of the sidetracks around the time when there was more activity with arguements, than there was with information input from across the group. (re the big bust)
This really is a great source of info for just about anyone interested in Investment property, but I got a surprise when I went to a seminar in Sydney recently and heard at least 3 people relating the fact they read, but do not participate, because they may get 'flamed' because they asked the wrong thing, or inferred the wrong slant on things. Seems a shame.
I'm still new at this, but thouroughly enjoy the learning process.
I am still in awe of the regular 'specialists' in their respective fields ( esp my weak point, economics, finances, rates etc,)
My point is, with such a diverse group of motivated people, is it possible to have less verbal attacks and therefor more info.

Any thoughts

Jahn

[superted]

I think the forum is going along nicely at the moment and is reasonably civil with very good outputs from most everyone on the topics raised.

I know what you mean for first timers though.... but sometimes a good forum arguement cuts through the bs and actually protects the newbie people.

PS: Just dont bring up bad REA stories as this is a blinkered area IMO ;-)

[Jase]

Sticks & Stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me... and it wil ltake a hell of a lot of sticks & stones ;)

But seriously folks, if the worst thing anyone ever does is flame you on a message board, trust me you are going to be fine.

Some ppl that are easily effected by the written word perhaps need to develop their 'message board skins'. And at the end of the day if a total wannker comes on & flames you for no good reason then only fellow wannkers will see it as a flame, the thinking ppl will see it as TW makes a fool out of him/herself yet again & will read "nothing to see here but foolishness, next" which can hardly damage your reputation.

I look at it like karate for whimps, except instead of bruises from sparring you get invisible flames from those that strongly disagree with you, had an unhappy childhood or who's wife now refuses to sleep with them etc.

If it ever got serious there could be a seperate section set up with the main basics of property investing for dummies (as above) & room for beginner question type threads. Which would give newbies somewhere to start in the shallows where the experts were not hunting in packs like sharks ready to rip apart the first dumb question or suggestion.

But as thats hardly happening I guess it's not really needed now is it. hehe

Jase

[Les]

G'day Jahn,

And thanks for initiating the thread!! I am very interested in what you (and others) have to say:-
My point is, with such a diverse group of motivated people, is it possible to have less verbal attacks and therefor more info
Jahn, I would like to think that could be the case, and it would be a major win if we could achieve this. Is it practical? Possibly, but perhaps unlikely. As a Moderator, I can say that we do endeavour to keep things "nice" - but, with human beings being as diverse as they are, this is a huge ask.

Let me ask people this:- "Do you always "get on" with your family? your workmates? your boss? your neighbour?" Odds are, you will (now and then) run up against people who don't agree with you.

In the end, it comes down to the individual contributors. We (the Moderators) cannot control every aspect of every post, and, at times, it becomes difficult to identify just where to "draw the line"....

It is always sad to hear that some choose not to post "for fear of being flamed". In answer to that, may I say that this is one of the friendliest forums around, and most of the people I know are only too happy to assist any new members to "find their feet". But, we can't do this by putting a gun at their heads..... i.e. they have to do it first by posting.

Where things seem to get "out of control" we (Moderators) do have the ability to ban posters - this procedure is not resorted to often, but it has happened. And it will (likely) happen again as deemed necessary.

Jahn, in the end, it is up to people to choose to post (or not) - their call !! If, at any time, there seems to be unnecessary "flaming", simply use the tools that the forum provides (click on the "Caution sign" on the top right of EVERY post - and air your grievances to every Moderator on the forum - easily).

The tools are there for each and every forum member to get assistance in dealing with posts (or posters) that are "flaming" others. Use the system, and we'll clean up the forum!! Other than that, what can we do to help??

Please tell us....

Regards,

[Aceyducey]

I have a similar opinion to SuperTed.

It's not the new posters who get challenged per say, it's posters who provide a controversial viewpoint or through a series of posts appear to be self-reinforcing a particular viewpoint.

If we're not challenging our own & other people's viewpoints a lot of the learning experience is lost.

If someone, whether a new or current poster, came onto the forum & posted completely fallacious information and that information was allowed to stand unchallenged - how does that help new investors who don't have the experience yet to distinquish it's relative value. Or, worse yet, new investors who are not members of Somersoft but find a link to the post via Google or another search tool?

At the end of the day we discuss facts, viewpoints & strategies (plus other stuff) on this forum. Facts are subject to interpretation, viewpoints are personal & strategies follow from viewpoints & facts, many can take people to the destinations they have chosen for themselves.

They are all subject to debate and need to be debated so that people can decide for themselves. It's the old 'Freedom of Speech' debate :)

The challenge online is to not take things personally...why take it personally if, for instance, someone with the nic 'Spongeface', who you wouldn't know from a bar of soap, disagrees with you - regardless of how many posts they've made.

IMHO most of the time these response posts are not meant personally, but are expressing a different viewpoint (that of 'Spongeface') and how the original post makes 'Spongeface' feel.

Interpretation of the bare words with no other tools to determine the intent (ie: expressions, gestures, personal auras, pheremones, baseball bats, etc) is very open to misinterpretation.

If the meaning seems personal, start by asking the person what they meant before opening fire - words of wisdom I'm not excellent at taking myself, but words of wisdom nonetheless.

And there are NO stupid questions...except 'Are we there yet?' :D

NB: The nic 'Spongeface' is used purely as an example & should not be taken personally by anyone using the nic or indeed having the name 'Spongeface'. In this post the nic 'Spongeface' could be equally represented by the use of another similarly nonsensical nic such as 'Aceyducey' (not to infer that anyone using the nic 'Spongeface' is nonsensical).

Cheers,

Spongeface

[Fester]

Well there is one thing that annoys me here, not that it happens very often and it hasn't happened to me, is when someone posts a query or question and they get a response "do a search"! Now they may be new, not know how to do a search, or the search results were outdated or not relevant. I would rather see someone not post with such a reply, honestly I find it rude and doesn't help the original poster at all!

[Sunstone]

they get a response "do a search"!

Dear Fester,

A flipside is how many times does one want to answer exactly the same question asked by someone who only posts once and never comes back with any thanks or further posts?

I agree that it is useful to post a link/s to a thread where the information already is but it also is a reminder to others to FIRST do a search and THEN ask for additional information or further clarification. With 110,000 odd posts it is highly likely the question has been asked before and therefore by doing it in this way it contributes to more NEW information being added to the forum.

Cheers,

Sunstone.

[see_change]

Well there is one thing that annoys me here, not that it happens very often and it hasn't happened to me, is when someone posts a query or question and they get a response "do a search"! Now they may be new, not know how to do a search, or the search results were outdated or not relevant. I would rather see someone not post with such a reply, honestly I find it rude and doesn't help the original poster at all!

Superted, the time this gets most frustrating is when someone asks a question, and there is already an active debate on the very question they have asked . This has happened many times.

Most of the long termers around here , contrary to public opinion, do have lives off the forum. Most have gained significantly from the forum and are willing to help the new newbies as they were helped in the past, but it gets boring answering the same questions again and again.

See Change

[Jas]

The tools are there for each and every forum member to get assistance in dealing with posts (or posters) that are "flaming" others. Use the system, and we'll clean up the forum!! Other than that, what can we do to help??



Just backing up Les here. I've used that very button quite a few times to send things to moderators I think should be removed.

Sometimes they where, sometimes not. But then I got an explantion why they were leaving it.

Jas

PS: SC, you're answering a post from Fester, not Superted.

[see_change]

PS: SC, you're answering a post from Fester, not Superted.

Opps :confused: :o :eek: :rolleyes:

See Change

[geoffw]

Well there is one thing that annoys me here, not that it happens very often and it hasn't happened to me, is when someone posts a query or question and they get a response "do a search"! Now they may be new, not know how to do a search, or the search results were outdated or not relevant. I would rather see someone not post with such a reply, honestly I find it rude and doesn't help the original poster at all!I've pointed a user again to an old post - http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?p=110754#post110754

There is a lot of good information on that thread, and it would have been difficult (and pointless) to replicate that sort of information. I'm sorry, but quite often, there is good information already which doesn't need repeating. If I point someone at old posts, I always mean for it to be helpful. If it comes across otherwise, I'm sorry.

If someone does not find enough information from a thread referred, they are very welcome to come back and ask more questions.

[Olly]

Not long after joining myself I suggested that information that was likely to be asked often should be kept in the FAQ section - after all that stands for Frequently Asked Questions! and I don't think it gets used properly.

As an example, there have been many posts on 'what books should I read?' and yet I remember Jas did a list of good books that others added to. I think that should have been saved in the FAQ section.

Many people have put up self made spreadsheets on how to research a location, inspect a house or keep track of their investments, but they're scattered all through the posts and are hard to find. Pity they're not all kept in the one spot i.e. the FAQ forum! It could become a 1 stop shop for heaps of resources straight away. Newbies come here for information and they could find plenty to bone up on if it were all kept in an easy to find place.
More common questions spring to mind - what is an LOC?
What are the steps in buying/selling a house? to name just two.

This sort of information isn't likely to change (OK, it might, but then we just do an update), so a tutorial on them would be a good download they can add to their info 'manual'.

Maybe some of us can take on the responsibility of a particular file being kept up to date e.g. maybe Jas wouldn't mind keeping the book list current and so on.
You long serving members know better than I the questions that are asked most often. Wanna put up your hands to make some files on them?

Then we can say to newbies in the welcome email - "there's plenty of resources kept in the FAQ section so we suggest you check that out first".

Maybe it needs a tutorial on how to search too. :rolleyes: :p

Cheers
Olly

[jahn]

Hi all
Great replies to a possible touchy subject.
Jase, agree with your post, especially -
"Some ppl that are easily effected by the written word perhaps need to develop their 'message board skins'. And at the end of the day if a total wannker comes on & flames you for no good reason then only fellow wannkers will see it as a flame, the thinking ppl will see it as TW makes a fool out of him/herself yet again & will read "nothing to see here but foolishness, next" which can hardly damage your reputation."

Les. Do not for a second think my post was inferring the moderators of the forum do not already do a great job. :o I realise the difficulty of communicating by typing only, when I read that only 10% of communication is transferred by word. The rest by such things as volume, excitment, body language, etc. (all things considered, we do damn well)
And I just learned about - "simply use the tools that the forum provides (click on the "Caution sign" on the top right of EVERY post - and air your grievances to every Moderator on the forum - easily)." Thanks

There was an appropriate reminder from the experienced campaigners re searches, and I have seen examples See Change mentions.

BTW. Acey That would have to rate one of the best disclaimers I have seen in a while. Almost a squirm. :D

[Les]

G'day Jahn,

Les. Do not for a second think my post was inferring the moderators of the forum do not already do a great job.
No, mate - I didn't think that way at all. In fact, I had planned to PM you to talk privately over your concerns, but, having seen others already responding, I decided instead to "open it up" more by posting my own reply.

And the "moderator" bit was for everyone who might not know just what happens "behind the scenes" - so it was more of an "info-mercial" I guess :D

To all, thanks for the great input so far. For any others out there thinking they might want to add, please do.

And the comment about "do a search" was well made too. Is Olly right? Is a tutorial necessary? Has anyone run into problems with using Search? (Can you FIND it? ;) )

The Search and FAQ comments also got me thinking of "the old days" - in particular, Mike's "Apprentice Millionaire" section, made up from a number of useful threads from the very first forum. This was designed to take "newbies" and lead them through the various things they needed to know how to handle. And it still exists in "Original Forum Archives" (which is really just "Apprentice Millionaire" renamed).

My suggestion for anyone starting out is to "live" in that archive for a week or two. The headings start with "Getting Started", then "Home Issues" (everything to do with buying a home), and steps forward from there thru Finance, Buying an IP, etc. The only thing to remember, is go to the OLDEST post and step forward (later ones are, I think, about seminars). A good place to start, I think, because of Mike's groupings (e.g. you want to know about Finance, go to the Finance headings (they will all be together in the archive).

In fact, here is a link to takes you to the last post on the Old Forum Archive. This is the "Getting Started" grouping of threads. From here, just step forward to find the area you want.
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4635

If others deem this useful, I'll put together a bunch of links that point to:-
Getting Started
Home Issues
Buying an IP etc. That way, a newbie could select just which area to go to. But then, should it go into FAQ? Is there a better place?

For those that HAVE looked through the archive, WAS IT WORTH IT? Some of the data may now be "too old" to be useful......


Appreciating all the input, people - please keep it up.... :D

Regards,

[Aceyducey]

As an example, there have been many posts on 'what books should I read?' and yet I remember Jas did a list of good books that others added to. I think that should have been saved in the FAQ section.
It is :)

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9652

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[jahn]

Hi

Les, does this mean I've been used. :o :D

"And the "moderator" bit was for everyone who might not know just what happens "behind the scenes" - so it was more of an "info-mercial" I guess"
Thats cool. I like to be good for something.
Re the "too old to be useful". Don't the basics remain the same ?
jahn

[geoffw]

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9652Adding to what you've said Acey.

The post you've pointed to is a part of an FAQ section- http://www.somersoft.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Though maybe there should be a link from the FAQ to the FAQ forum?

And if anyone would like to contribute to the FAQ forum, they are welcome. For instance, perhaps there's scope for someone to collate stuff into a "Landlords Insurance FAQ"?

(although, even if they did, someone else might be castigated for pointing other users to that FAQ :D ? )

[Janfan]

Hi All

Well I think one thing worse than getting 'flamed' is being ignored.
Knowing there is a wealth of knowledge and not being able to draw a response is hard to take.


Janfan

[Les]

G'day Janfan,

Well I think one thing worse than getting 'flamed' is being ignored.
Knowing there is a wealth of knowledge and not being able to draw a response is hard to take.
I sincerely hope this hasn't happened to you..... If it HAS, can you provide a link for us?

And, yes, I reckon you're dead right!!

For all of the "lurkers" that are concerned about posting, do be bold, take the step and ask a question. Some say the only "silly question" is the one you DON'T ask......

Regards,

[geoffw]

Well I think one thing worse than getting 'flamed' is being ignored.
Knowing there is a wealth of knowledge and not being able to draw a response is hard to take.Sometimes it's just because the people who read the post don't know an answer.

Unless you'd like responses from people who don't know any answer to the question :D ?

[Jen]

I can be both a scaredy cat and a sensitive soul but whenever I have asked for advice, I have received it and never had a problem with being ridiculed. :) In fact, this is the first place I seek advice about anything property-related because people are so willing to help and the knowledge is so diverse (and appreciated)

Stephen Covey in The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People stated that rather than ridicule or dismiss peoples opinions, we should celebrate the different opinions and paradigms people have and try to understand the way they see the situation. By doing this, we synergise and reach higher levels than we otherwise could on our own. (I hope that's not too deep!)

This forum has taught me a great deal and once you start posting, it's actually fun to be involved. I encourage all lurkers to join in because you must all have something you can add to the forum.
With regards to just posting links, I don't see that as being a problem. It's usually very informative and saves a lot of hassle repeating things.

[Thommo]

If any lurkers here feel concerned about their welcome, go to http://www.hotcopper.com.au/
for a bit. Feel free! Post ****! They let it all hang out there, so when you come back you'll have a built-on hard shell and appreciate a more convivial atmosphere.

I don't have the tact of a Gandhi or Mandella so whenever I have signed into a new site I have invariably upset people. (eg [of lack of tact]My lady has just come home from a night with the girls and our daughter said she was worried. I said I couldn't care less.... WRONG!)

If all else fails ...... change yor nick! Only Sim will know and he wouldn't tell.

Thommo

[Sim]

Only Sim will know and he wouldn't tell.

I would if someone paid me enough :p

[geoffw]

Sometimes it's just because the people who read the post don't know an answer.

Unless you'd like responses from people who don't know any answer to the question :D ?Sorry for such a quick reply earlier.

Just to expand a little.

I generally read most posts on the forum. I will try to respond to those posts I feel I can respond to- when I have the time.

Most days, I probably spend an unhealthy amount of time on the forum. It's addictive somehow.

Sometimes I only hjave time for a quick read, and the odd quick response. Other times I can contribute a little more.

So even if I do feel I have an answer to somebody, I can't always reply.

And when I do have an answer, but no time- by the time I come back to the forum again, that thread is out of sight, out of mind. There are a lot more threads posted after that one.

I'm sure that many people who do have an answer cannot respond immediately.

If you have a post which has not had an answer, it might be worth while a *bump* reply. That pushes the thread back up to the top of the "new" threads, and gives another chance to get an answer. Preferably, this should be done at a different time of day from the original post, and/or a few days after.

Anybody who does contribute does their best.

[Olly]

It is :)

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9652

Cheers,

Aceyducey

Yep, you're right - I missed it. Actually my FAQ forum doesn't show any posts at all and I have to constantly change the settings when I want to see what's in it. Anyway of making my setting of "Beginning" stick?

Olly