Docu-Movies

[Andrew_A]

I saw two excellent movies this last week.

1) Fahrenheit 9/11: A powerful experience. Watch the worlds most dangerous man perfecting his golf drive and reading kindergarten books. Excellent section at the end where Mike Moore tries to recruit children of the members of congress for the war in Iraq. Mike's a bit loose with the facts but the message is not spoiled for this.

2) Touching the Void: Never ever give up. A lesson in the power of goal setting.

WaySolid

[asy]

We went and saw Touching the Void...

It was a magnificent film, and I agree, a lesson in effective goal planning...

The courage and tenacity shown were awe inspiring.

I do have one comment though, it's also a lesson in PLANNING!!!

They had nowhere near enough supplies and equipment, they were cocky and didn't adequately prepare for the risks.

Other than the fact that they ran out of supplies, and couldn't even get water is one thing, they would have been uncomfortable, but in nowhere near the danger they ended up.

*Techy stuff*
Having done a little(!) rock climbing (well, belaying, I always enjoyed that more than climbing) I couldn't understand why they only had one belay device. and why they didn't have a bloody grigri with them!!! Fancy only having two 9.5 ropes... No spare at all!!!

When one of them had to lower the other one, and they had tied the ropes together such that the bottom guy had to take the weight while the top guy unclipped and moved the rope past the knot so that the top rope was now in the belay device... Had they had two belay devices and a spare Carabiner he could have simply held the weight on the top device while he set up the other side of the knot in the other belay device, then unclipped the first... that would have alleviated much of their eventual problem. Oh, and, I hear you ask, what belay devices did they use?? A stich plate!!! No grigri in sight... One set of prussiks each... you get the idea...

Don't worry, I haven't given away the movie, it pretty much tells you what's going to happen in the first few minutes, This movie is about the ride, not the destination.

All in all, it was brilliant...

I think I'll wait for 9/11 to come out on video, but Touching the Void is DEFINATELY one for the Big Screen Experience.

asy :D

[GreatPig]

Touching the Void
Haven't seen the movie but read the book.

How to put someone off mountaineering in one easy step :D.

GP

[GreatPig]

Asy,


belaying, I always enjoyed that more than climbing
Wow... I never thought I'd ever see anyone say that! :D


I couldn't understand why they only had one belay device. and why they didn't have a bloody grigri with them!!! Fancy only having two 9.5 ropes... No spare at all!!!
In a word... weight. In the high mountains speed is critical, and all that gear weighs a lot. Yeah I know, one belay device mightn't sound like much, but a grigri is heavy and bulky compared to a sticht plate and can't be used for abseiling. You don't actually need a belay device to belay anyway: you can belay using just a carabiner, although it's a bit harder on the rope. And a spare rope is a major weight and bulk addition, especially when it most likely won't be used. In many cases, being slow is potentially far more dangerous than not having a spare rope.


Had they had two belay devices and a spare Carabiner he could have simply held the weight on the top device while he set up the other side of the knot in the other belay device, then unclipped the first
Not as easy as it might sound. How would he unclip the first with Simpson's full weight hanging on it? To lower someone past a weighted knot generally requires using prussiks (or jumars) and setting up a pulley system - all of which would be very slow compared to just having Simpson take his weight off the rope for a moment.


One set of prussiks each
That's all that's normally needed. Two loops is enough for most things, although a third can be useful. However, where a third is useful (eg. crossing knots), it's also quite slow and in the high mountains a climber might prefer to risk doing it with only two to speed things up (plus under normal climbing conditions they wouldn't be prussiking over knots anyway).

GP

[asy]

Hiya GP

Agree absolutely with everything you said, I understand the weight issue, grigri's are about 100g, whereas sticht's are what? 20g?

I guess my point was that they seemed very blase in their approach...

As to your comment:
Wow... I never thought I'd ever see anyone say that!

yeah, used to make me very popular around the gym and cliffs...

Have medical issues that prohibit climing much past a 10.. :(

Although my ex used to climb mid 20's. Must say, could I take back some of the more impressive catches... hehe (I'd be a widow instead of an ex.. lol).....

Great fun though...

Assume you climb?

asy :D

[Jas]

I recently saw Fahrenheit 9/11 too.

I found it powerful propaganda. I've also hunted down a very good rebuttal to it.

While you have to be aware of biases in things like this, I like that there are links to Michael Moore's rebuttal to this one within the document. I spent a morning jumping from site to site.

One thing I'd point out to you Waysolid, that recruitment campagin was edited. There was a senator who paused, agreed that it was a good thing, agreed to help and commented that his newphew was in/going to Iraq. It was cut to 'the senator paused'. Not really fair IMHO.

There's a lot more.

http://www.davekopel.org/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

Jas

[units4me]

Fullofs**t 911.Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. What a load of biased crap, full of errors and 'convenient omissions'. :mad:

[geoffw]

Like any political comment- it will not usually change the opinion you already held, it will usually reinforce ideas you had already.

F911 is already very well known. People who agree with the opinions already will probably go and find it fantastic. People who don't agree to start with will either not go, or go just go to find what errors have been made.

Units, some more facts and a little less emotive language would help to present your own case better.

[Thommo]

My son bought me "Stupid White Guys" (I have no idea why) in which he first started his anti-Bush rant. I "disapprove strongly" of Bush and read that bit but in the end could not finish the book.

Maybe we need a new headline hunter to do the big expose' of Moore. :p Poetic justice!

Thommo

[GreatPig]

Asy,


grigri's are about 100g, whereas sticht's are what? 20g?
Can't say I've ever weighed one, but certainly not much. I use a type of ATC myself.


my ex used to climb mid 20's.
Well I've never gotten that good, probably because I never seem to have time to practise these days. Outdoors I've climbed up to 20, and the odd bit of 21, but haven't led anything significant over 19.


Must say, could I take back some of the more impressive catches
You must have had well calloused hands then :eek:. I remember one occasion where a belayer ended up with quite bad rope burns on his hands after catching a big fall.


Assume you climb?
Unfortunately it's mostly past tense these days. I seem to be in a perpetual state of trying to get back into it :D.

Earlier this year I finally managed to build a woody (small bouldering wall) in my garage, so at least I can do some training now. I used to go to a climbing gym once a week, but the gym has moved further away and I never seem to find time. And now that it's been so long (probably 2 or 3 years since I last climbed outdoors), I'm losing contact with the people I used to climb with. I'm still a member of a local club though (or still will be when I get around to paying the due membership), so I'll have to start getting to their meetings again.

Talking of which, the next one is on Wednesday...

GP

[asy]

You must have had well calloused hands then :eek:. I remember one occasion where a belayer ended up with quite bad rope burns on his hands after catching a big fall.

Well, mine is more past tense now too, since the ex-ing.. hehe

I remember one catch on an overhang, was just asked to release more rope so that he could make a high clip. I had just released the rope and noticed the hand on the little dicky hold was starting to tremble... Got the sign, reeled the rope in, and just as I got it locked off he fell. And fell hard. I had to duck while I was still reeling in as he bounced about a metre off the ground. The adrenaline rush was fantastic...

The best compliment I ever received was immediately after this from an old (!!!) climber who came over and said, "I've been climbing for almost 50 years, and I think that's one of the most impressive catches I've ever seen. You can belay me anyday!".

I gotta say, I miss it.

We used to have a roof climb, my ex made all the holds himself and set it all up with a self-belay system (no way I was sitting outside for hours at 1am belaying him!!!). It was great. I used to put my son in the mossie harness at 3yo and hang him off the ropes off the roof... saved having a swing.. hehehe :)

asy :D

[GreatPig]

I had to duck while I was still reeling in as he bounced about a metre off the ground.
Phew... for a second there I thought you meant he hit the ground and bounced back up a metre! :D


We used to have a roof climb, my ex made all the holds himself and set it all up with a self-belay system
I bought proper holds from the same place as the climbing gym, but I didn't bother with belays. It's only a couple of metres off the ground so I just got some old mattresses. I was fortunate in that just as I was completing it, the local council had one of their collection days for old junk, so I joined the ranks of the scavengers :).

The only problem is our little fox terrier likes to lie on the mattresses while I'm practising on the roof :eek:.

GP

[asy]

Phew... for a second there I thought you meant he hit the ground and bounced back up a metre! :D

Well, things *might* be differrent now... Now he MAY just bounce.. lol

(Actually, even after all he's done, I don't think I could drop anyone climbing... funny that, don't you think?)


I didn't bother with belays. It's only a couple of metres off the ground

His system was a ROOF climb, not a wall... It was the full length of the verandah roof, and about 2.5m off the ground, it was a sight to behold. (Even our landlord was impressed... hehe)

He made the holds using marine ply layers and sculpted them with a grinder. Then he coated them with a hard plastic coating he made himself (he's an industrial chemist) and finished with sharp sand in the final coat of the coating.

His self belay system was a 10mm rope slung from one end of the roof through crabs to the other end where he had a big bag of sand, just a little heavier than he was that hung off the ground, when he fell, the sand counterweighted. It worked a charm.

asy :D

[Lissy]

Would you two like a private room? :p ;) :p

[geoffw]

Would you two like a private room? :p ;) :pNah, a private rock climbing wall should do it :D

[GreatPig]

Hey, the real thing beats a movie any day! :)

Well perhaps not the aspects like Joe Simpson encountered...

GP

[sbe]

Jas,

I've watched part of the movie so far. Still debating if I'll watch the rest. It's so obviously condescending (and a documentary wouldn't have to be).

I found that link the other day - lots of good info, and he even links to Michael Moores site for rebuttal info.

Definitely lots of convenient edits, outtakes etc.

Everyone should read that site's rebuttal. It even has side comments like the school backing up Bush not running out and scaring the kids etc.

While some of the points do raise some questions....a lot of it is just selectively editied crap.

[Jas]

Yeh Sbe,

Fasinating stuff.

My friends and I got into a long late nite converstation, ranging from his choice in outfit to his production and editing style.

Just watch Horaldo to see Moore's audience. They are a scary bunch of people.

Jas

[Andrew_A]

Mike Moore also conveniently forgot to mention Australia as one of the coalition for the war in Iraq, which was annoying.

Everyone should read that site's rebuttal. It even has side comments like the school backing up Bush not running out and scaring the kids etc.

So instead of being paralysed not knowing what to do, he was deliberately playing it cool so as not to scare the kids? Planes were crashing; but the kids got to hear the end of the story. I think I preferred the first scenario more :)

WaySolid

[Aceyducey]

Mike Moore also conveniently forgot to mention Australia as one of the coalition for the war in Iraq, which was annoying.
Australia is very rarely mentioned as one of the coalition outside of Australia.

We're just not significant.

Our troop commitment wasn't that large either.

Cheers,

Aceyducey