Dear Sim

[Tandella]

Sim,

You have now closed 3 threads on the topic of Derivex. Why ? None of the other moderators have felt the need to step in and exert authority to that extreme.
Granted that it may have got a little personal at some points between certain members, but on the whole I felt it was generally healthy debate.
I for one had been interested reading the views of others and was actually learning alot from the discussion about various investment techniques and strategies. Why would you want to surpress that ?

[Aceyducey]

Healthy debate?

There were no actual facts involved in the discussion of Derivex.

In fact it was pretty clear that some posters hadn't even read the documentation currently available.

Wait until the facts are available & then the topic will be debatable.

I agree with Sim's decision.

We can debate investment techniques and strategies in other threads - Tandella, perhaps you should start a thread about this.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[Tandella]

There were no actual facts involved in the discussion of Derivex.

No facts ? at all ? Not one statement of truth in the entire discussion ? I disagree.

In fact it was pretty clear that some posters hadn't even read the documentation currently available.

I agree with that though :)

Wait until the facts are available & then the topic will be debatable.

And agree with that.

I agree with Sim's decision.

But have to disagree with that. If the topic of conversation does not interest you, then you have the choice of not participating. Change channels, but don't turn off the TV so that the rest of us can't watch.

There were other moderators that participated in the discussion too, so to me that would indicate it was also of interest to them.

Consideration for those keen to participate or learn from the topic of discussion is all I am asking for.

T :)

[madmurf]

Hi

Already PM Sim about the closures. No reply as yet.
It must something to do with a rule about if it dosnt exist them we cant talk about it.
Now if I start a thread about a company that has the name of XXX and is going to give loans out for 0% interest is that OK???

Cheers ;)

[Simon]

Why don't you head over to PI.com. There is a free for all about Derivex there.

No need to worry about facts or knowledge - just hook right in.

Cheers,

[madmurf]

Simon

Tried www.pi.com and www.pi.com.au and both sites dont exist.

Cheers :D

[Tandella]

Try this one murf :
http://www.propertyinvesting.com/forum

T.

[agent 86]

Tandella,

I'm glad Sim closed them down.

No new stuff was coming to light.

You can always start up a new one though.

Suggested title "My Derivex IFHL has come through." :)

A86

[Aceyducey]

Why don't you head over to PI.com. There is a free for all about Derivex there.

No need to worry about facts or knowledge - just hook right in.
Yeah some real belligerents over there.

Not enough Grasshoppers.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[Rolf Latham]

Hi Tandella

Ill speak for SIM ?

He would have shut it because its getting too long, feel free to start another thread where the other one's left off.

ta
rolf

[Peter 14.7]

Dear Tandella

In response to your post I advise:

1. Sim has probably not replied to your question because his is overseas with work. Probably asleep.

2. All Moderators discuss in the Moderator Forum these types of decisions jointly. We debate, reach consensus and Sim acts on the groups decision as Administrator.

Whilst still new to the game from what I have seen and learn't is decisons one way and another are made with a number of considerations in mind:

personal attacks
intention of the posts
spam
and yes value

In the case of Derivex the threads commonly became hearsay and implications without much facts. I personally even defended them because some posts were simply silly.

"I have a friend who has a father who use to do this and hunt corporate that and he says, in no relation to Derivex , that ...."

I use and support Somersoft because we all learn from sharing our opinion based on experiences or public comment, but there is a point, where comment becomes repetitive and hence wasteful.

I know personally I never before closed a thread to email until Derivex droned on..

Let ASIC do thier thing and let them come back or close.

My thoughts, Peter 147

[quintets]

Tandella,

I've noticed the moderators are a bit different from PI. And so it would be. It's a different site. They seem stricter on people being civil to each other. Heck, I started a poll on Derivex which got nipped because it was deemed "irrelevant speculation". I was extremely annoyed, but when I thought about it, there's a difference between "interesting" discussion and "important" discussion. I didn't complain. The forum is moderated by volunteers and it takes alot of time to wade through the posts to make sure things stay civil. Derivex is a pretty explosive topic and I'm personally more interested in the facts.

After the first moon landings, there was a saying about the huge, emotional debates about many aspects of the voyage.

"Before the landing, it's speculation. After the landing, it's obvious"

As far as locking down the thread and stopping questions, I've only seen one instance where someone took an unanswered question in a closed thread to the new one started up. Given the huge number of replies and views on each of them, that's pretty indicative that the majority of the discussion was just "yes it is, no it isn't" chit chat.

Having followed the Derivex thread from almost day one in both forums, I don't think there's anything really new to add. If someone wanted to start one, I'd almost say it should be moved to the Coffee Lounge until after the ASIC decision. But I probably have better things to do with my time until something solid from ASIC pops up.

Everytime Sim kills a Derivex thread part of me says, "Thank God!!"

Jireh

[Tandella]

He would have shut it because its getting too long
But the last thread only lasted 5 pages :
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18965
I've read other threads about eating habits, cigarettes and petrol on this forum that have had longer lives than that ! :)

Not to start another Derivex thread (I'll leave that to someone else), but it seems that Consumer Affairs is in the picture now too (for those who weren't aware) :
http://www.interestrate.com.au/fullnews.asp?DT=Full#12683

T.

[Tandella]

Peter,

Thanks for the explanation and clarification. I wasn't aware that Sim acts on behalf of ALL moderators, as in the past I believe I have seen moderators themselves wind up threads...

T.

[Thommo]

Tandella, As one who has posted on this subject more than I would have chosen to, I am usually thankful when Sim closes the threads.

The battle lines have been drawn but little new, and definately nothing conclusive, has been posted for a month. Most of us simply say "If it happens, I'll have a bit of it". Sounds fair to me! I hang in there because I resent being called an idiot by a paid assassin of the establishment.

I believe it is possible, but not yet convinced it will happen.

Thommo

[qaz]

I think this thread should be in the help/feedback section.

[Andrew_A]

If we combine enough controversial topics in the one thread perhaps it will get locked as well :)

[quintets]

Nah...just start bagging Subway. If you're lucky, you might get banned.

:D :D :D :D

Jireh

[nat r]

Thommo...does this comment from the head of Consumer protection at ASIC sway your thinking on how possible this product might be?

'As people continue to borrow more, ASIC is seeing more schemes like this being advertised. It's high time that people realise that loans without interest are just pie in the sky', Mr Tanzer said.


Note: before you start into me, I don't write what is on the ASIC site ....I just understand it.


Nat

[Wazza007]

Hi Nat

Again I ask what has the statement below got to do with Derives these stories relate to offshore investments using a buyers club

Whats it got to do with Derivex??

Im not having a go here Im just trying to understand Nats point??

[investor]

Maybe we should just stick to threads like :

" How many ips have u got ?"

" What stage of the clock r we at now ? "

" Has investing made u a better person ?"

" What do u think the RBA will do next month ? "


Regards

Investor :p

[Jamie]

'As people continue to borrow more, ASIC is seeing more schemes like this being advertised. It's high time that people realise that loans without interest are just pie in the sky', Mr Tanzer said.

Nat

"An amazing invention, but who would ever want to use one?"
U.S. president Rutherford Hayes, after participating in a trial telephone call between Washington and Philadelphia in 1876.

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
Charles Duell, commissioner of the U.S. Office of Patents, urging president William McKinley to abolish his office, 1899.

"There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom."
Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize winner in physics, 1920.

"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?"
Harry Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927.

"I think there is a world market for about five computers."
Thomas J. Watson, IBM chair, 1943.

"Television won't hold on to any market it captures after the first six months. People will soon tire of staring at a box every night."
Darryl Zanuck, head of 20th Century Fox, 1946

"640K is enough for anyone."
Bill Gates, Microsoft chair, 1981.

"There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home."
Ken Olsen, president, Digital Equipment, 1977.

Nat,

Wasnt there a period in history where everything we take for granted now was actually "pie in the sky"? You dont think splitting the atom and putting a man on the moon were a little harder to conceive at that point in time than what Derivex is currently offering? Since when did any person or civilisation progress by approaching things with a closed mind?

Jamie.

[nat r]

jamie...I'm sorry but cliches like that are meaningless.

Keep in mind all the quotes you use were related to the potential size of the market not the reality of whether an invention worked.

Nobody doubts the size of the potential market for an interest free loan....just the better educated or more informed amongst us (including ASIC) know that the concept is fanciful and does not work.

Have your ever heard of a Pepetual Motion Machine...they work on the same basis as the Derivex fudning model but unfortunately suffer from similar problesm. There was a book written by Thomas Pynchon called "The crying of Lot 49" which explored this in more detail.

Can I suggest you do some private study on Future Value, Present Value, Interest Compounding, Cross Currency Swaps and Risk Free Rate and then review your thoughts.

Only trying to help you build your knowledege !!


Nat

[Wazza007]

It's high time that people realise that loans without interest are just pie in the sky', Mr Tanzer said.


Additional Funding to Expand Interest Free Loans Scheme
21/05/2004

At the annual No Interest Loans Scheme (NILS) Forum in Melbourne today the Minister for Family and Community Services, Senator Kay Patterson, announced extra funding of $50 000 to employ a National Co-ordinator who would work with the 75 NILS providers across Australia.


Im confused :confused: arent these both Govt departments, surely ASIC wouldnt make such a broad sweeping statement if it wasnt true?

Nat?

[nat r]

NILS are loans of upto $800 to help the destitute, homeless or very low income earners thru a period of financial hardship....ie a govt handout that has to be paid back.

Nothing to do with home loans or car loans.

[Monopoly]

http://www.nilsnsw.org.au/comm/what_are_NILS.htm :)

[likewow]

This is funny! A thread about Sim pulling Derivex threads has turned into another debate on interest free loans, somebody stop it!!!!!......its outta control!!!

ps: Guys, have to get up early to stay ahead of NatR, who if she did have a vested interest in all this (which Thommo has been calling for her to disclose) would hardly be debating about it on a property investment forum. I would think there are much bigger fish to fry.

[nat r]

You don't have to get up early to beat me.....you have to stay up all night !!!

[likewow]

You don't have to get up early to beat me.....you have to stay up all night !!!

Love your modesty but it is a little bit funny :D This forum needs a few more characters.

[aussierogue]

These threads, and the the brainstorming that comes with it, have been the only area where this HUGE THING has been debated. Stopping the debate because it offends a few peoples sensibiities of order and structure is - well - the moderators prerogative.

I agree the forum needs characters....good onya nat!!

[geoffw]

Nah...just start bagging Subway. If you're lucky, you might get banned.Not really. Mods can close or pull threads- but they can't ban. And if one mod pulls a thread, the other mods can overrule :(

(actually, if one mod pulls a thread, the whole jumper might fall apart).

[Wazza007]

NILS are loans of upto $800 to help the destitute, homeless or very low income earners thru a period of financial hardship....ie a govt handout that has to be paid back.

Nothing to do with home loans or car loans.

But it is an Interest free loan is it not?

Thanks Nat I know exactly what these loans are for but where in your post do you mention that the ASIC comment THAT ALL INTEREST FREE LOANS ARE PIE IN THE SKY state that it is relation to car or home loan? I know what the ASIC story was about and it has nothing to do with Derivex.

And you are so funny haha stay up all night.. :) you crack me up ;)


'As people continue to borrow more, ASIC is seeing more schemes like this being advertised. It's high time that people realise that loans without interest are just pie in the sky', Mr Tanzer said.

Note: before you start into me, I don't write what is on the ASIC site ....I just understand it.


Nat

[qaz]

'As people continue to borrow more, ASIC is seeing more schemes like this being advertised. It's high time that people realise that loans without interest are just pie in the sky', Mr Tanzer said.

Mr Tanzer has obviously never heard of islamic mortagages.........

Nat, do you have some peice of evidence or knowledge we don't?. Because I don't see how anyone here can conclusively say whether Derivex is worth its salt untill we see a PDS (product disclosure statement) and know the details of the loan.

[nat r]

Gaz...do you actually realise how the islamic mortages work in terms of interest compounding and the zero coupon effect ....or are you just firing from the hip here??

Likewise a PDS can say what ever it wants, that doesn't mean the product works ....would an instruction book for a time machine make you belive that there is such a thing and futher more that it works??

As a kid did you ever write to Santa Clause telling him what you wanted ???...do you still think he is real because the presents turned up on xmas day??

I'm running out of ways to simply explain that the underlying principals of the product do not work.

[always_learning]

Getting back on the track of this thread, I have been a forum member for a few years. In that time I have had several comments/postings/pictures even my signature things "pulled", most of these I believe have been extremely over sensitive reactions IMHO. If this forum was a public service and financed by the governement I would have been outraged by it.

However Somersoft forum is a private entity it's existence is due to Jan and Ian Somers and of course the moderators efforts, so they can pull, push, edit, delete anything they like. Nobody hear can stop me setting up my own forum and enable people to abuse, defame and slander as much as they see fit for as long as they want. So we have a choice to accept dare I say a
benevolent dictatorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator) or start our own dictatorship. However looking over at the "dark side" www.propertyinvesting.com, it just isnt as good or as "nice" as Somersoft.

BTW I will start a thread on the possiblity of interest free home loans, in which the "D" word is prohibited :)

[likewow]

Getting back on the track of this thread, I have been a forum member for a few years. In that time I have had several comments/postings/pictures even my signature things "pulled", most of these I believe have been extremely over sensitive reactions IMHO. If this forum was a public service and financed by the governement I would have been outraged by it.

However Somersoft forum is a private entity it's existence is due to Jan and Ian Somers and of course the moderators efforts, so they can pull, push, edit, delete anything they like. Nobody hear can stop me setting up my own forum and enable people to abuse, defame and slander as much as they see fit for as long as they want. So we have a choice to accept dare I say a
benevolent dictatorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator) or start our own dictatorship. However looking over at the "dark side" www.propertyinvesting.com, it just isnt as good or as "nice" as Somersoft.

BTW I will start a thread on the possiblity of interest free home loans, in which the "D" word is prohibited :)


You should try the free-for-all using usenet newsgroups. Absolutely no holds barred on the unmoderated newsgroups and the moderated ones are only a little better (or worse depending on your view). Lots of fun but not for the thin skinned.

[Aceyducey]

Thread Closed












Hah! Got you!

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[qaz]

Thread Closed












Hah! Got you!

Cheers,

Aceyducey

Shoulda saved that for your 5000th post. Looks like its close.

[Peter 14.7]

Getting back on the track of this thread, I have been a forum member for a few years. In that time I have had several comments/postings/pictures even my signature things "pulled", most of these I believe have been extremely over sensitive reactions IMHO. If this forum was a public service and financed by the governement I would have been outraged by it.

However Somersoft forum is a private entity it's existence is due to Jan and Ian Somers and of course the moderators efforts, so they can pull, push, edit, delete anything they like. Nobody hear can stop me setting up my own forum and enable people to abuse, defame and slander as much as they see fit for as long as they want. So we have a choice to accept dare I say a
benevolent dictatorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator) or start our own dictatorship. However looking over at the "dark side" www.propertyinvesting.com, it just isnt as good or as "nice" as Somersoft.

BTW I will start a thread on the possiblity of interest free home loans, in which the "D" word is prohibited :)

Thank you Always Learning, Kudo on the way.

I looked up the definition and it sums up Somersoft pretty perfect I think:

a "benevolent dictator" is the person that effectively holds dictator-like powers over that project, yet is trusted by other users/developers not to abuse this power.

The term is used humorously, because the "subjects" of the project leader contribute voluntarily, and the end-product may be used by everyone.

A dictator in this context has power only over the process, and that only for as long as he or she is trusted.



Thanks for the support of us Mods.

Peter 147

[the.j1]

I am using it for my second - Cos I was got! Thanx Aceyducey

[Sim]

If we combine enough controversial topics in the one thread perhaps it will get locked as well :)

You forgot Henry Kaye (topic used to start some fantastic flame wars) ... but then that turned into the biggest "told you so" we ever had, didn't it :p

[Sim]

"I think there is a world market for about five computers."
Thomas J. Watson, IBM chair, 1943.

Pet hate ... bad misquote.

Comment TJ made was about a sales trip they made, trying to sell some early IBM computers. They estimated a world market for IBM's computer ON THAT TRIP of up to 5 machines. I think they made something like 12 sales that trip - blew their expectations away.

I've got the full story somewhere - I'll have to track it down, it's quite fascinating.

[Sim]

#1 most common reason threads get closed is to prevent (or stop) flame wars

#2 most common reason threads get closed is because they get too far off topic

#3 most common reason threads get closed is for fear of legal repercussions

Thread is now closed for all of the above reasons.