Moving to Canberra

[marc1]

This may be an unusual question, however I trust many would be able to answer.

I am considering moving to Canberra, and this includes of course sell my home in Sydney and buy over there. When I am interested in discussing the RE aspect of the move, I would also welcome other's opinions and their own experience of life in the ACT.

Are there Sydney expatriates living in Canberra? Which one are the good suburbs?

I would be looking in the $500k price range for a house in the city or alternatively some acreage not too far out.

I welcome your thoughts and when obviously likes and dislikes are subjective, I value your opinions in favour and against.

Thanking you in anticipation. :)

[geoffw]

Marc

I have spent a number of years in Sydney, as well as in Canberra. When I was single, I couldn't wait to get out of Canberra and back to Sydney- the social life for a single person then was hard to find, and I really didn't like the winters (living in a very badly designed house, eneergy wise, didn't help).

I lived in Sydney for a number of years, and really enjoyed it. I met my wife, we lived in England for a few years, and then came back to Sydney. MrsW really didn't like it- the humidity especially- so when a job came up in Canberra, we moved.

I found that, with a family, Canberra is an excellent place. There's a lot of very good facilities, and it's very easy to get around- with a car! The private schools are nowhere near the cost of the equivalent schools on Sydney, and there's lots of opportunities for sports and other events for the children.

I'd suggest that perhaps you could investigate keeping your place in Sydney and letting it out- it may be worth while to keep an asset like that going.

When you look at real estate in Canberra, there's really only one website- www.allhomes.com.au - some of the most comprehensive information for any RE website in Australia.

And of course, there's a great Subway in Belconnen :D

[Phil_H]

And of course, there's a great Subway in Belconnen :D

And Geoff didn't mean we have trains here ... that's one form of public transport we do lack ;)

Cheers

Phil

[marc1]

Thank you guys, and yes, I have still kids in school.

One thing that no website nor RE agent will be able to comunicate is the knowledge of which one are the "good" suburbs and wich one to be avoided.

When I first arrived Sydney in 1988, I had a mental map of my City of origin with the different social strata and their corresponding lable.
However to be able to build a new map with similar lables for Sydney prooved difficult. Very difficult, in fact it prooved almost impossible to put the necessary questions into words without rising an eyebrow or two. In time I learned.
I would like an accelerated basic course for Canberra.

Where do you buy if you have money?
Where do people with money live?

:D

[coffee]

Marc1,

Sales/price data for suburbs, if you are interested in more detail to compare other properties in a street/suburb...

http://www.propertyguide.com.au/stats/act

Marc1 where will you be working ? that would make it easier for us down here to give some feedback on schools/facilities/sporting/shops & properties in general work area etc

Geoff

[Steve Navra]

Hi Marc,

Some years back I moved from Sydney to Canberra, specifically because it was such a wonderful place to bring up and educate the kids.

I have always lived in 'Big Apple' cities . . . JHB - NY - SYD; however I fell in love with Canberra and it still remains my fav Aus city.

I moved back to Sydney only because I started the MF company, and it would have been untenable to staff it in the ACT.

Please come by and visit me in Nth Sydney if you wish and I will give you much insught regarding your questions.

Regards,
Steve

[units4me]

I reckon Canberra's a fantastic place. I try to get up there a few times a year to see the Kangas in action at Manuka Oval. I'll drop in for a footlong next time.

[geoffw]

And Geoff didn't mean we have trains here ... that's one form of public transport we do lack ;) Of course, there is an excellent ladies' weight loss/health centre on the southside. Unfortunately, you must take the bus or drive- the subway doesn't extend that far :D

http://www.healthyinspirations.com.au/locations.php at Erindale

(I'm not the only one with a business in Canberra- this is lucky Phil's)

[marc1]

Marc1 where will you be working ? that would make it easier for us down here to give some feedback on schools/facilities/sporting/shops & properties in general work area etc

Oops I missed that bit.
Ok that is a hypothetical of course.
I would be transferring to one of the government departments be it Centrelink, ATO, DEST, Defence. My wife is a GP so will be looking for a partnership in a local medical centre or family practice. One girl in year 8, another aged 25 is a lab technician working for a state hospital would transfer to your local hospital, has already a job offer but is not game to lead the charge.

What is best? to buy a nice house inner north, say Campbell and thereabouts or buy acreage say going out of town via Northborn, seen some nice places there...or would you look somewhere else? To be able to live on a farm and work in town so ridiculously close sounds ideal.

[geoffw]

It's a bit difficult- the departments you mention are in different areas over Canberra. ATO has divisions based in different locations as well. Thay can be 20km apart- but it will only take 20 minutes to drive.

Living on a farm- well, that's a lifestyle choice. It is possible, and many people do it- but some who have done it have moved back into the city sa well. It's more difficult just to pop in to get milk or a newspaper, and it can be especially difficult for a girl in year 8. And don't forget the rising petrol prices.

What about school for your daughter? Did you want a good private school, or would you prefer a government school? You may wish to plan your location around a school, and use that to determine where you're looking for a job.

Spend some time looking around- and perhaps even plan on renting for a while to get a feel for what the various suburbs are like.

[Lplate]

Marc
I lived in Pearce, Forrest and Hughes when I lived in Canberra for 12 years (then found sunny Brisbane, it's yummmmmmy).

That general locale is handy to many areas. Hughes for example is near the big Woden shopping centre, there is a big high school and Woden Valley Hospital. Woden is a centre for public transport. There is also the opportunity to get reasonable size blocks in Hughes.

The Howard government is highly centralist and Canberra will remain a growth area for a long time.

I think you are better of selling and buying on the same market, but maybe renting will offset the risk of not liking Canberra for some reason. :D

[Muz]

.... When you look at real estate in Canberra, there's really only one website- www.allhomes.com.au - some of the most comprehensive information for any RE website in Australia....

Fantastic website GeoffW :D

[Lplate]

marc1

You did ask for the pros and cons. Now for the possibly contentious bits:

1) there is not much for young people to do in Canberra;

2) it is a company town. Sure not EVERYone works in the PS, but they do derive income from it (this could be the attraction for you though);

3) too bland, not enough variety in daily living (explains the exodus on the Friday nite flights and for holidays); and

4) it is hard on a spouse if not working at least part-time. The chateau collapsible in the fridge could beckon. :eek:

Many people love Canberra but it helps if you are more of an 'inland' person and you have pay TV.

I liked my time in Canberra but someone has a lot to answer for creating a public service town. Yeah I know, there are service industries etc etc and contractors are not really public servants (just ex-PS :p ).

OK you can turn the turrets this way now, however marc did ask for subjective comments and it is not all peaches and cream in the ACT. :p

[Spiderman]

Marc
I lived in Pearce, Forrest and Hughes when I lived in Canberra for 12 years (then found sunny Brisbane, it's yummmmmmy).

That general locale is handy to many areas. Hughes for example is near the big Woden shopping centre, there is a big high school and Woden Valley Hospital. Woden is a centre for public transport. There is also the opportunity to get reasonable size blocks in Hughes.


Forrest is nice, close to Manuka, but I doubt $500k would go far. Red Hill is overpriced for what it is and you can't walk to Manuka (or anything really).

I agree Hughes is good, as is neighbouring Garran (where I used to live). From either it's a short bus trip to Civic and Woden. If you're lucky, you might just get something modest for $500k in either of those two.

Suburbs like Farrar and Pearce are further out and have less public transport. But both are close to Southland.

Reid is dear and close to Civic. But it's not near big shopping centres like Woden or Belconnen. For slightly less the inner north (eg Ainslie) has lovely old houses on big blocks and are handy to the shops at Dickson.

Cook and Aranda are near bushland, so are good if you go walking behind Black Mtn. Both are also not far from Belconnen and Civic.

Peter

[ggumpshots]

This may or may not be important but
Are you aware that you would not be buying a property , just buying a lease. For a family I think it is an excellent place to raise a family with excellent facilities......there must be a 1000 km of bike paths by now.

[geoffw]

Spiderman

Your assessments of the suburbs are good. But I think Canberra locations are different from Sydney locations. In Sydney, many people tend to work in CBD/North Sydney/Chatswood/Parramatta- and can get to any of these places by public transport.

In Canberra, people tend to drive a lot more, so proximity to work or school becomes more important- especially with petrol prices now. I'd suggest to marc that he finds his general area for work/school/medical practice location first, and then try to find a house within striking distance after that.

ggumpshots

Your point is a very good one, and it raises another possibility. Because you are buying a lease (for up to 99 years), the stamp duty on an investment property is deductible in the year in which it is incurred. A number of people buy an ACT property, let it out for a year or so, and then claim the stamp duty in full in the first year. They then move in to make it a PPOR.

[marc1]

Lease?
What happens after 99 years?

[ggumpshots]

Lease?
What happens after 99 years?
I guess you go back and re sign at a negotiated price

[WillG]

Lease?
What happens after 99 years?


The ACT government was talking about the idea of turning all 99 year leases into 999 year leases some time ago. Not sure what happened as a result.

I am not sure what happens when the 99 years are up but there are some properties in Canberra that will be getting towards 99 years.

I concur with everything everybody has said. Inner south and inner north are the better (more exclusive) areas and you should be able to pick something up for $500k but it will not be a mansion.

As GeoffW said, it all depends on where you will be working and your kids will be going to school. Canberra has satelite cities/zones (Tuggeranong, Woden, Civic, Belconnen & Gunghalin) with Civic being in the middle. All of the Zones have large shopping complex's, schools, etc

There are some rural areas (Hall, Wamboin, Murrenbateman, Bywong, Royalla, Burra ..) around canberra within 30 - 40 minutes drive however you may not get much for $500k unless it is under 5 acres.

Good luck

[GPSNetwork]

Canberra is very nice, just a little on the quite end, my in laws live in Gangalin and I tell ya the place is exploding with new estates shopping cenres, major retailers ect.. Not a bad place..

[Lplate]

marc1

Maybe some can give advice on less attractive suburbs too.

There is a lot of wealth in Canberra but there could be pockets where people struggle. This can bring social problems.

For instance, I am not presently a fan of Narrabundah because it seems as though the residents neglect their properties and do not take pride in maintaining the community facilities. Examples of degrading assets could be the tennis courts and the shopping centre locale.

I would not discount public transport. The ACT bus service is first rate and it would be a shame if one did not take full advantage of it wherever possible. :cool:

LPlate

[geoffw]

For instance, I am not presently a fan of Narrabundah because it seems as though the residents neglect their properties and do not take pride in maintaining the community facilities. Examples of degrading assets could be the tennis courts and the shopping centre locale. There is downmarket Narrabundah and upmarket. Areas on the east of Sturt Ave and Jerrabomberra Ave (eg Narrabundah College) are still Narrabundah, and very upmarket.

I wouldn't (yet) live in downmarket Narrabundah myself- but I missed out on the opportunity to pick up a property a few years ago very cheaply- I thought that a downmarket area like that would go nowhere. It boomed. So did the rest of Canberra of course- but I was blinded bu predjudice.

[Programmer]

Spiderman, another Garranite!

I was born-bred in Canberra (yeah, OK, ha ha) and still have a brother and sister there. I 'got out' because it was just too much of a 'smallville' for me at that time. It's changed alot since though, and I wouldn't have any problem going back - especially with 3 kids. However, as no doubt your partner will find, it also has believe it or not, a very healthy trade in drugs. I mention this because while it is still a great place for kids - Canberra is no longer the shy country town I grew up in. It hasn't been so for years.

I agree with Geoff re Narrabundah. There were, and still are, very wealthy people in that area. Go have a look, that's the best way.

If you want the really good areas then the 'triangle' is for you. But 500k is not going to buy much. Campbell is nice, and pricey. In the south, Garran, Deakin, Hughes. I haven't seen O'Malley for a while - the houses themselves are very big and pricey, but many are also awful.

Forest is nice, but VERY expensive. Yarralumla is gorgeous, but again, getting very expensive. In that same region, Red Hill (big bickies), Manuka (pronounced MAANAKA, not MANYOUKA). These are all well established areas.

I would assume you'd rather a newer market for the practice? Not that you can't go taking clients with great service, just some thoughts.


In Canberra, people tend to drive a lot more, so proximity to work or school becomes more important- especially with petrol prices now. I'd suggest to marc that he finds his general area for work/school/medical practice location first, and then try to find a house within striking distance after that.

Agree again with Geoff, and the 'good' areas might not be the 'best' for establishing a new practice. Whatever, it's going to be a tradeoff between the services Geoff mentions.

I haven't mentioned Tuggeranong Valley (further south, used to be called 'nappy valley' - but that's a bit dated these days) and Belconnen because I generally like them less - however don't discount Tuggereanong because there are some really nice areas - and possibly far more lucrative for the practice.

You'll be aware there are heaps of issues to consider. What type of practice (re demographics of client base), public or private schools/religious or not, etc etc.

Cheers,

[Aceyducey]

Hi Marc,

We moved to Canberra for lifestyle reasons coming up on two years ago.

We chose Canberra because of the (more) laid back lifestyle than Sydney or Melbourne (have lived in both), excellent schools, wide variety of activities and culture, differentiation between the seasons, country-style living (5 minutes from paddocks with sheep & cows) but city convenience, closeness to various places (3 hours to Sydney by car, 2 hours to the snow, 1.5 to the beach) & because we could afford a substantially larger house without slowing down our investing (similar purchase in Sydney of comparable size and location would have cost 4x as much and set us back about 3 years...and you never recapture the compounding).

Canberrans typically split into Southside and Northside, so people who've lived south don't favour the north and vice versa - but both offer some excellent places to live.

We chose the Belconnen region, mostly because that's where we found the property we wanted to live in, but frankly there are few 'dog' suburbs in Canberra and nowhere is far from the business areas or bus routes.

Personally I'd recommend the settled areas, as they have the tree lined streets, larger blocks and bike paths, but you can buy a new place for similar prices about 10 minutes further out - which is a long way for a Canberran to travel.

North and South Canberra both have some very nice areas, but the Civic shopping centre is quite dead on weekend and I don't reckon the facilities are as good as further out such as Woden, Weston Creek or Belconnen. Personally I like the Belconnen region due to the walking tracks, good placement of shops, the markets, because it is well established (but not too old), perfect for families and an easy ride to the lake at Belconnen, or a more challenging (40min) ride to Lake Burley Griffin. Plus I live 2 minutes from a horse riding place for when the kids are a little older, 5 minutes walk to their school and 10 to their future high school and it's convenient to all the highways (though admittedly a whopping 25 minutes drive to the airport).

I find Tuggeranong a bit far out and not so good for public transport - it's rawer and hotter (as trees were cut down more recently and haven't regrown to the same extent as in more established areas. Gungahlin is OK, but the shopping centre remains a bit congested with the new extensions and new suburbs keep appearing, so it's growing fast - a micro Brisbane :)

There's not the same distinction as in Sydney or Melbourne as to where people with money live. Mostly they live in Sydney or Melbourne :)

Much of Canberra is upper middle class. Money and schooling is not as important as it is respectively in Sydney and Melbourne, nor is your footy code. Instead it's more related to the networks you belong to, sporting groups, work, etc. It's actually quite nice as there's no 'keep-up-with-the-Jones' mentality or school snobbery & no-one blinks an eye or treats you differently if you're worth a couple of mil or only a couple of thou.

Generally it's said that it takes 10 years before you're considered a local and if new in town it can be a challenge to 'break into' existing networks. Jas & I had existing networks down here so it was a trifle easier, but one key reason I re-entered the rat race was to meet more Canberrans, rather than spending all my time on the phone or email with my friends & business contacts elsewhere in the country.

Nothing's going to happen when the leases are up except they'll be rolled over (except maybe for an inner city horse stud or two). You can't go destabilising a city by making people feel their houses aren't secure. So this really isn't a worry. Frankly if the government tried anything they'd find themselves without any staff :)

And frankly for all the talk of nothing to do in Canberra, well we've not found that to be the case. We've gotten into the sports, city events, courses (attending and teaching them), choirs, lecture series and generally enjoyed the surroundings - walks, parks, picnics, BBQs, etc.

The old thing about all Canberrans leaving the city every weekend certainly has not been our experience, though they are a highly mobile and well-travelled bunch.

There's a limited but decent selection of pubs & clubs if you're young and social, and the drug problem is nothing compared to any of the major cities, or many of the small country towns (where there IS nothing to do!). The selection of restaurants is excellent and the crime rate is low.

Sure you can find bad things about the town if you look hard (ie: sometimes it's full of politicians), but not to the same extent as in the bigger cities.

There's a shortage of medical professionals in the ACT as they get drawn to Sydney, so your wife will have no issue securing a job anywhere in the state.

Why not come visit Canberra mid-November for CRIN's Big BBQ and Steve Navra's presentation and stay the following day to visit Floriade.

You'll get a feeling for the city and get to meet and start building a network of contacts with lots of local investors (who can tell you where to buy).

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[luckyone]

All I can say to you is don't come to Canberra if you can't handle 9 months a year of Winter! I absolutely hate it here because it is cold for way too much of the year, isn't located near any decent beaches (no, I don't like Bateman's bay much). The social life is fine here though, I do like that aspect and it's relatively easy to find a decent job.

If you choose to live here, I would definitely say to live in Gungahlin. The lifestyle out here is amazing (I know cause I live there) and it is growing rapidly and likely to provide good growth over the next few years. It feels close to everything too. I work in the middle of the city and it only takes 15 minutes to get to work in the morning, as long as you don't go down Northbourne (go the back way through Watson and Ainslie). On the downside, it does get very windy in Gungahlin and of course it is very cold.

On the other hand, areas like Belconnen and Woden are more central and have excellent facilities already provided. Personally, I don't like Belconnen as I see it as the new nappy valley cause it is relatively cheap compared to other areas (especially Charnwood, don't buy there to live in it, may be ok for rentals though) but I do really like certain parts of Woden.