Investing and Spirituality

[knightm]

I was reading the "How on earth do you sleep at night post and came across a post from Brenda that fascinated me but was largely ignored:

When Hubby and I first decided to go in property investing, it wasn't all our decision.

We did an awful lot of praying and asked our Lord a lot of 'what ifs'. When we did take the plunge, we did it in the knowledge that it was with His blessing.

It gave us comfort that, come what may, we would be taken care of. So in we dived into property investing and we're doing 'swimmingly'.

Cheers Brenda:)

Firstly thanks brenda for putting your view out there. I thought it would be interesting to hear what other people think about faith and finances? I am interested to know what beliefs might be represented on the forum and how people feel their spirituality interacts with their property investing activity?

[Mark Laszczuk]

knightm,

As an avowed agnostic who has spent many many many hours reflecting on spiritual issues, I've come to the conclusion that it is up to the individual basically. Some people find comfort in prayer, others just dive in the deep end head first then learn to swim.

The way I see it, 'spirituality' in the broadest sense of the word doesn't have a general link to investing, but it does have a link to each individual's investment path. Whether that link be something like Brenda's 'prayers for guidance' or someone on the other end of the scale, like myself who doesn't take spirituality into account when investment decisions need to be made.

Horses for courses and all that. As long as we all achieve our goals, it's all good.

Mark

[Chilli]

I am sort of with Mark L on this.

One interesting thing I have noticed and not sure how to explain it, is that for me, whenener my investment decision was purely money driven, the performance was just OK, but nothing special.
However for those investments where the decisions were not just to make money but to also help someone, or for reasons other than making money (kind ones of course) , they (the invetments) somehow became big winners.....

[Rixter]

knightm,

As an avowed agnostic who has spent many many many hours reflecting on spiritual issues, I've come to the conclusion that it is up to the individual basically. Some people find comfort in prayer, others just dive in the deep end head first then learn to swim.

The way I see it, 'spirituality' in the broadest sense of the word doesn't have a general link to investing, but it does have a link to each individual's investment path. Whether that link be something like Brenda's 'prayers for guidance' or someone on the other end of the scale, like myself who doesn't take spirituality into account when investment decisions need to be made.

Horses for courses and all that. As long as we all achieve our goals, it's all good.

Mark

Mark,

I agree totally. IMHO I dont want to see another religion/spirituality thread again.

As you said its horses for courses and what ever floats your boat is fine for you, and you only!

[knightm]

salsa - does that mean you are thinking there may be some sort of karmic thing with your deals? The universe(or God/whatever word you use) is rewarding you for win-win situations? Is it just a couple of experiences or have you developed a theory on it?

rixter - why would you want to stop other people discussing their own motivations? Isnt this the very spot to reflect on what is going through your mind as you make property deals? What if that includes some otherworldly stuff? Are we supposed to censor it?

[Glebe]

I'm religious - my god is the dollar.

[monoply]

If your a Christian, you pray about everything you do in life, and that definitely includes investments.

[knightm]

I'm religious - my god is the dollar.

so the more money a deal has in it the more spiritual it is!

[Rixter]

rixter - why would you want to stop other people discussing their own motivations? Isnt this the very spot to reflect on what is going through your mind as you make property deals? What if that includes some otherworldly stuff? Are we supposed to censor it?

Hi knightm,

I dont recall stating I wanted to stop people discuss their motivations.

I said I personally didnt want to see a religious/spiritual thread again on SS. My oppinion is brought about by the recent religious thread that doesn't prove anything except get ppl hot under the collar. IMHO religious/spirital topics should be directed to religious/spirtitual forums , not property forums.

Thats my oppinion but I respect yours also.

cheers

[knightm]

Hi knightm,

I dont recall stating I wanted to stop people discuss their motivations.

I said I personally didnt want to see a religious/spiritual thread again on SS. My oppinion is brought about by the recent religious thread that doesn't prove anything except get ppl hot under the collar. IMHO religious/spirital topics should be directed to religious/spirtitual forums , not property forums.

cheers

I wouldn't want to see general religious discussion here either - I was asking about people's thoughts on how their faith/religion/spirituality effects their investing. Is that more relevant to this forum rix? I am not here to debate the pros and cons of different faiths etc. Just to hear if people draw strength or guidance or something else from that area to use in investing.

[pieman]

yes please no posts about faires, father christmas, easter bunny etc.
They have no place in a property forum
cheers
ht

[Carolyn]

I hesitated for a moment before responding to this thread. Always such a touchy subject.
I think Religion is often confused with Spriituality in our society.

I mentioned Bill Zheng's course in the orginal thread by "Corsa" and it is exactly related to some issues that have been raised here.

What are your inner motivations, what you dwell on in your mind is who you are, meditation to receive what outcomes you want.. and other very left field things. Definitely have to be ready for this journey - not for everyone.

I don't believe that I am a religious person. But I do believe that our will's, subconscious and our "energy" that we put out daily effect the life that we do and can have.

Just my beliefs , and definitely am an advocate of each to his own. But I do think it's funny that civilisations that have exsisted for so many thousands of year all seem to follow a similar train of thought.

[wish-ga]

I understand where you are coming from rixter. People did get very vehement in that particular thread. But since this is a thread devoted to "faith and finances" it isn't going off track so posters who don't agree might just abstain instead of flame.

I would be very interested to hear people share and hope this thread can be supportive and constructive. We all have different experiences in life that lead us to where we are. Some people find structured religion resonates and others not so much. I would like to hear from people of faith.

Apropos of absolutely nothing; Two of my favourite sayings;
Prayer changes he who prayeth
(perhaps this leads to clarity of decision vs 'hand in the sky' concept)

Thank God for unanswered prayers
(a Muslim friend of mine shared this with me, I think of it often. And her too)

[Chilli]

Knightm,
Only what I have noticed re. my past investments.
I don't believe in the existence of any "being" that rewards me for good or punishes me for bad things I do. In this sense I do not have faith and I am not talking about religion. My theory of karma is along the line "same frequencies can communicate and share the power synergy" (hence good attracts good and bad attracts bad).

[knightm]

thanks salsa - interesting experience and theory

wishga - good post

I think even though people get all upity when the R word is mentioned I dont know why some people cant mellow out and share experiences. The whole forum is based on the idea that we will all do our own thing, express personal opinions and respect each others views. Why should this be any different? I haven't pushed any fundamentalist view, neither has anyone else as far as I can tell - apart from the view that its not ok to bring it up :confused:

[ren-A]

I trust my prophets

[geoffw]

For me, it wasn't anything about religion directly- it was more that my upbringing made me feel uneasy about wealth building. It was OK to go and get a good job and work hard (protestant work ethic)- but accumulation of wealth was not quite right.

[DaleGG]

Hi

I have mixed thoughts here...

I see many investors and some have a faith that they follow and some do not. As a rule, I would not say that one group prospers more than another, but, those that have a genuine belief in the goodness of what they do and maintain their integrity along the way seem to enjoy the journey a little bit more than those that are out to screw anyone and everyone.

Mind you, I also see the worst kind of people...those that pray on their knees on Sunday and prey on their neighbours all week long! That is, those that have a faith when it suits them but do not live according to their faith.

Have fun

Dale

[geoffw]

Well put Dale. Thanks.

[knightm]

Thanks for all replies - dale I agree nothing worse than hypercritical religious types, if you they going to bother on sunday then why not live it for the rest of the week, coz who are they kidding?

Geoff I grew up with the same feeling of certain types of money (white collar degree based proffession wages) are ok but others (entrepeneurism) are not. Funny that different parts of the (christian) church vary on this. I now seem to know many more business owners and investors who also have a faith. I guess I have gravitated towards them coz something in me was looking for that.

The bizzare thing is that from my study of the original protestant work ethic, saving and investing was a core part of any good citizens responsibility.

[lizzie]

for me the spirituality concept is more a case of being honest with myself - and this can only happen when my inner voices are all quiet (yes, there is many more than one). it is more like a brief meditation to ensure that i am thinking with my mind instead of my heart - although the gut instinct has a very good habit of being right.

i believe that for many, that is what prayer actually does - centres oneself for calm reflection. being honest with oneself.

i use the reflection/meditation in moments when i stand in the middle of a property after doing all the due diligance and calmly ask myself "do i really want this property?" surprisingly enough the answer is often "no" but it is very exciting when i feel "yes" and a yes hasn't let me down yet.

i hope that makes sense ...

[thefirstbruce]

I think it is unfortunate that religion has got such a bad rap in the last 50 years. On the whole, I think many religious groups do a lot of good, which is ignored by the media due to religion being uncool. All the focus these days is on paedophilic priests and intolerant fundamentalists. Meanwhile, more and more of us are insisting our kids have a private school education where solid Christian values and discipline are paramount.

And I am yet to see a group of atheists do as much charitable work as the Salvation Army.

I think it is better that people at least try and stand for something rather than nothing, or everything. I see so many people who get into serious difficulties in life, and have no sense of orientation, or foundation upon which to find hope to move forwards with courage.

Until one loses all support from the world and money, they aren't likely to know the value of a faith in something bigger than their ego/intellect. Life has many ways to throw humble pie at us, and my attitude is that it is better to have a strategy to deal with that than not.

I have seen many adolescents and adults saved from suicide by religion. And I have seen several adolescents end it all because they believed in nothing.

How does all that relate to investment???? Well, to me, at the end of the day, I am not investing solely for my benefit. When thinking of investment, I contemplate where resources are most needed for the greatest good. After I have gathered some ideas together for investment, I meditate on them, and seek guidance from within. Eventually I get a green light or red light feeling. Whether that is from a God, or just a calmer broader sense of good will within me, is debatable.

That's what works for me.

[qaz]

I hesitated for a moment before responding to this thread. Always such a touchy subject.
I think Religion is often confused with Spriituality in our society.

I mentioned Bill Zheng's course in the orginal thread by "Corsa" and it is exactly related to some issues that have been raised here.

What are your inner motivations, what you dwell on in your mind is who you are, meditation to receive what outcomes you want.. and other very left field things. Definitely have to be ready for this journey - not for everyone.

I don't believe that I am a religious person. But I do believe that our will's, subconscious and our "energy" that we put out daily effect the life that we do and can have.

Just my beliefs , and definitely am an advocate of each to his own. But I do think it's funny that civilisations that have exsisted for so many thousands of year all seem to follow a similar train of thought.

I agree 101%. Spirituality and religion aren't necessarilly one and the same. I'm not a spiritual person but I don't consider myself religious.

[Kennethkohsg]

Dear All,

1. I wonder if members has similar equally fascinating property investing experiences as I have experienced to date.

2. Some time in June 2003, I was in Cairns to do my own research and to invest there. From my own research and HTW's research studies, Cairns was then in 9-10 o' clock rising market and I reckon intuitively by my own understanding of the operation of the property cycle within the Cairns Property Market, we could then see the property about to surge strongly till the end of 2004. We knew that we could make some monies investing in the Cairns property market in July 2003 and exiting out from the same market before December 2004.

3. My brother-in-laws and I tried to invest into the Cairns property market but for one reason or the other, the deals simply could not proceed on successfully. This was despite that we already have our loan pre-approvals in place, from Westpac Bank before we proceed to sign the agreement to purchase property....However and strangely enough, all the deals simply fallen through because of the some banking system related problems. We tried to do some new deals through St. George Bank, again it was not successful, for one reasons or other.

4. On the other hand, we have no problems investing into the Perth property market during the same period of time.

5. Why is this so? I cannot explain it myself;- other than to believe that there is some sort of a Divine intervention involved (and probably also some spiritual lessons for me to uncover and to learn for myself too).

6. Likewise, when I was trying to sell off one of my Perth properties at the beginning of this year, somehow, I intuitively knew beforehand that the house which was meant to be sold off eventually, was my third new IP house at Lot 1664, 15 FitzGibbon Road, which was then under construction.

7. I tried putting my first IP house for sale in Jan 2005 but failed to achieve a successful sale. Then I tried putting my second IP house for sale at $10,000 below its bank valuation price for sale too in May-June 2005 period as a motivated vendor, again, I was also not successful then. Somehow, I also come to learn intuitively and to believe that every house will have its own rightful owner at the appointed time, if God be willing.

7. My third IP house was then still under construction and somehow at the very last minute during last week of June 2005, I manage to get an overseas buyer to buy off this property off-the-plan at the previously pre-determined house price of A$370,000, not a cent more or a cent less and with a long settlement date, which seems to fall in nicely, with my own plans.

8. Consequently, I got to keep back my first 2 IPs houses.

9. And interestingly enough, after I have inked the sale agreement to sell off my third IP houses, then "out of the blue", I start to have potential buyers proactively chasing after me (while I was then in Melbourne) to purchase my second IP houses in July-August 2005 period, despite no sale advertisement was made.

10. So for me, the property investing game has indeed been a highly fascinating and exciting journey of learning to trust God and living by faith in His Providence. What I have learnt from my own humble experiences is that Man can plan what he wants to but ultimately it is God who will it and make things happens in our lives.

11. So for me, property investing itself has been some sort of a spiritual experiences of learning to trust our Divine God!

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

[thefirstbruce]

Kenneth, I know a lot of very poor Christians who also believe they should trust in God, and not do anything off their own bat, to help themselves. There's got to be a balance in there about relying on Divine Providence.

Further, I wonder whether you see a problem, as an investor, with driving the price of housing up, and making it more difficult for first home buyers to get into the market.

[Kennethkohsg]

Kenneth, I know a lot of very poor Christians who also believe they should trust in God, and not do anything off their own bat, to help themselves. There's got to be a balance in there about relying on Divine Providence.

Further, I wonder whether you see a problem, as an investor, with driving the price of housing up, and making it more difficult for first home buyers to get into the market.
*************************************8
Dear theFirstBruce,

1. "Trust and obey", that's the key to our Christian faith.

2. Does that mean that all Christians should invest in property then? Personally, I believe that God works in a miraculous way, in His Providence.
To each his/her own, according to his/her respective calling in life by God.

3. I agree with you about having a balanced view on God's Providence. But then, what exactly does this entails?... Only the affected individual will know if he has sincerely and honestly been obeying God in his/her own llife ... or been listening to his/her own human fears and greed desires instead.

4. In this respect, I am still learning to understand God's Will and learning to obey Him as faithfully I can as He has enabled me to, by His own Grace, from the way He is teaching me in my own life.

5. You ask me, "whether you see a problem, as an investor, with driving the price of housing up, and making it more difficult for first home buyers to get into the market.".... What exactly are you trying to say with your statement? And what exactly is your underlying concerns and beliefs behind this statement, please? Is there a biblical basis that I should take note of, as a Christian?

6. Looking forward to your kind clarifications and learning from you, please.

7. Thank you.


regards,
Kenneth KOH

[thefirstbruce]

*************************************8

5. You ask me, "whether you see a problem, as an investor, with driving the price of housing up, and making it more difficult for first home buyers to get into the market.".... What exactly are you trying to say with your statement? And what exactly is your underlying concerns and beliefs behind this statement, please? Is there a biblical basis that I should take note of, as a Christian?

regards,
Kenneth KOH


Kenneth, it is well known that the last boom was driven by a massive increase in investor activity, not by owner occupiers. A boom is when there are more buyers around than sellers. That drives prices up. First home buyers get frozen out of the market because they have to go back and save a bigger deposit for a few years, or maybe 10. If you think about it, this can have serious repercussions, like delaying the young from starting families, or deciding not to have children at all.

If you haven't thought about these things before, then that's fine. God didn't want them clouding your investment decisions.

However, recently, even Bernie Fraser has become sensitive to the social problems of freezing the young out of the property market.

[Kennethkohsg]

I am sort of with Mark L on this.

One interesting thing I have noticed and not sure how to explain it, is that for me, whenener my investment decision was purely money driven, the performance was just OK, but nothing special.
However for those investments where the decisions were not just to make money but to also help someone, or for reasons other than making money (kind ones of course) , they (the invetments) somehow became big winners.....
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear Salsa,

1. Well said.

2. I have similar experiences myself and I do observe similar things happening to some of the investors around me in their real lives too, to a certain extent.

3. I believe that this is some sort of a spiritual principle governing the "mysterious" nature/operation of money:- where monies is being circulated for a good cause, it will return many folds back to its own rightful owners.

4. For your kind update, please.

5. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

[Kennethkohsg]

Kenneth, it is well known that the last boom was driven by a massive increase in investor activity, not by owner occupiers. A boom is when there are more buyers around than sellers. That drives prices up. First home buyers get frozen out of the market because they have to go back and save a bigger deposit for a few years, or maybe 10. If you think about it, this can have serious repercussions, like delaying the young from starting families, or deciding not to have children at all.

If you haven't thought about these things before, then that's fine. God didn't want them clouding your investment decisions.

However, recently, even Bernie Fraser has become sensitive to the social problems of freezing the young out of the property market.
**********************************************************
Dear thefirstbruce,

1. I can understand if some young Australians are getting frustrated and sensitive about being priced out from some of the more expensive property markets.

2. However, to blame all the investors in general, for such plight as faced by the young Australians, is totally a different thing, altogether. (We should be looking at problem-solving instead of "blaming" someone.)

3. It's like deliberately failing to understand the underlying operation of the human greed and fears and herd mentality, driving the market forces of supply and demand and house pricings in the Australian property markets.

4. If we examine it at the vary basica fundamental level, the people who are likely to get hurt are the very people who are ignorant of themselves or/and ignorant of the property market operations. Perhaps, it's time for them to realise the importance of such life education and to realise that this is another important aspect of life in a modern society.

5... Would you not have confidence in your own Australian Govt that they are still actively managing the situation well under its own control.

6.... Imagine the repercussions, if the investors' monies were to start leaving Australia for some overseas markets instead? Would Australians'welfare be better off and better served, as a result?... I am not sure if this will indeed be so!

7. In Singapore, the property market is almost "dead" - no market "pulse" so to speak;- as a result of lack of sufficient incentives for new investors to take the risks and as a result of the tight-control over the property market by the Singapore Govt. Many Singaporeans are now living with negative house equity presently, some 40% below their market peak in 1996. Yet the young Singaporeans also got priced out from their 1st home because of their falling wages and high housing costs too. So, is this really what you want for Australia too?

8. Likewise, Russia and China have similarly tried closing their doors before, to their own detriment. Now the 2 Communist Govt have also realised that they have to open up its economy to the global markets since 1990s.

9. I am wondering where you see God is, given the present situation and given your present line of thinking. To me, God is well in control of this situation. So is the Australian Govt, I believe.

10. It is indeed sad for a society when people decide not to have babies simply because it is "too expensive". In the longer term, can the Australian society truly afford this declining birth rate trend?... This is one important issue which govt in many developed countries are all trying to address, given the modernisation trend and change in the woman roles. To me, your Australian Govt has done well to a certain extent by encouraging skilled migration, beside trying to boost its local fertility rate with all kind of pro-family incentives and care arrangement.

11. For your kind update, please.

12. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

[Kennethkohsg]

For me, it wasn't anything about religion directly- it was more that my upbringing made me feel uneasy about wealth building. It was OK to go and get a good job and work hard (protestant work ethic)- but accumulation of wealth was not quite right.
************************************************
Dear Geoffw,

1. Interesting.

2. However, what's wrong with wealth accumulation from your perspective and upbringing? What's exactly are you "uneasy" with?

3. Looking forward to learning from you, please.

4. Thank you.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

[knightm]

Kenneth, it is well known that the last boom was driven by a massive increase in investor activity, not by owner occupiers. A boom is when there are more buyers around than sellers. That drives prices up. First home buyers get frozen out of the market because they have to go back and save a bigger deposit for a few years, or maybe 10. If you think about it, this can have serious repercussions, like delaying the young from starting families, or deciding not to have children at all.

If you haven't thought about these things before, then that's fine. God didn't want them clouding your investment decisions.

However, recently, even Bernie Fraser has become sensitive to the social problems of freezing the young out of the property market.

tfb

this is a really interesting issue - and I think it is an ethical question we should all think about, including people of faith but no only them. Most investers, even the nonreligious ones wouldn't like to think of themselves as cold darwinists.

Some extra ponderings on the topic of creating booms that make it harder for poeple to buy ppors as an ethical dilemma

1 - If I only ever buy in a slump, am I hurting anyone?

2 - If no investors bought, there would be a shortage of rentals and rentals would go up, what would that do to the first home buyers wanting to breed? (I am one)

3 - Is one person buying 1 or a couple of ips really going to effect the price of a town/suburb/nation?

4 - given the above question, should we think of ourselves as individuals or a collective force?

5 - should first home buyers be able to buy a home near work/family etc as a right? or is this a privelage, choice etc (eg for me to buy any freehold dump with a backyard near my family would 500k - is that unfair?)

Keen to hear more on this

[thefirstbruce]

1 - If I only ever buy in a slump, am I hurting anyone?

Depends if you outbid a first home buyer I suppose. You could argue you are competing against the younger buyer to provide for your own retirement. They could argue that if they have to pay more for a house, then they will delay having kids, and you won't have anyone providing services to you when you are older, unless we start importing labour from Asia. I am not a raging leftie, but I do accept that self interest cannot be pursued without consideration of its affects on others. And I feel these effects are unhealthily ignored on this forum.

Whether you hurt anyone also depends on whether you sell at the top of a boom, in the knowledge that prices may come down. Obviously your buyer is going to take a loss in that situation. You might ask yourself whether you would sell to your young nephew at the top of a boom for market value.


2 - If no investors bought, there would be a shortage of rentals and rentals would go up, what would that do to the first home buyers wanting to breed? (I am one)


It is always easy to dumb down an issue by referring to the extremes of it. This is as naive as saying drinking 10 litres of water in an hour can kill you, therefore drinking any water is bad for you. The recent property boom was fueled by an extraordinary increase in PI. Previous to this, rental demand/supply was in reasonable balance.


3 - Is one person buying 1 or a couple of ips really going to effect the price of a town/suburb/nation?


One person doesn't cause a boom like the last one we had. So this question is irrelevant.


4 - given the above question, should we think of ourselves as individuals or a collective force?


And that's the beginning of wisdom.


5 - should first home buyers be able to buy a home near work/family etc as a right? or is this a privelage, choice etc (eg for me to buy any freehold dump with a backyard near my family would 500k - is that unfair?)

Fair/unfair.....at the end of the day, we get the society we allow to unfold. Is it fair that the strong suppress the weak? Will it be fair when we have an economic downturn and people start getting laid off work and have to firesale their $500k house for $380k.

I have learnt not to expect fairness in life, but to try to do all I can to create it, being guided from within. If we all start not giving a toss about the next guy, we will quickly live in a hell on earth. It is trust and honour and integrity that allowed modern civilization to develop and be sustained. Lose that and it won't matter how much property you have because you won't keep it for long.

[knightm]

sounds like you have a real problem with the ethics of r/e investing. How do you sleep at night? Or ar you just playing devils advocate?

[thefirstbruce]

sounds like you have a real problem with the ethics of r/e investing. How do you sleep at night? Or ar you just playing devils advocate?

Just looking for a win/win. And to invest in its true sense. Buying IPs and passively waiting for a stack of others slower off the mark to come along and drive prices up doesn't quite cut it as smart investing to me, certainly not the smartest thing for the country as a whole.

If Australians invested the money they do in property into efficient business, then I believe we'd be better off as a nation. However, the tax laws don't favour that currently. But my guess is negative gearing advantages for IPs won't be around in present form for much longer.

[aussierogue]

Excellent sentiments Bruce.

What is apparent is that you have given thought to these issues even though you/we dont have all the answers.

Noone has all the answers, and any decision made will have consequences, good and bad - and thats the truth. Thats all we have even when investing. Sometimes its the motivation and not the transaction that counts....

So invest with goodwill and honesty and then trust in the process......hang on - isnt that called 'faith'.............

They are inseparable imho.......any attempt to seperate them causes a distortion and even though you may think you win, without an overall ethical element to your investing the chances are is that someone is losing, whether that be someone else or even yourself (without yu even knowing it)

gets back to win/win as alluded to b4..

[knightm]

Agree tfb that buying low and selling high is just long term trading - and not investment in the truest sense.

Re: winwin For me where the rubber hits the road is how I treat the people I am directly effecting. So I dont like kicking out tenants just to renno - would prefer to buy a prop thats already vacant or work with the tenants so we are all happy. Also have had tenant applications with tica histories etc. Have taken a chance on them and they paid the rent fine - they were gratefull to be able to clear their name.

Small things I know but like you just looking for ways to do things with a sense of ethics.

I am open to big picture ethical discussions too, but for something like property investment its built into the capitalist system of private ownership and trade.

to critique ip investing as right or wrong simplistically is useless as it needs to be considered in context.

maybe a better question is "Is it ethical to use money to earn more money?" Coz at the end of the day thats what all investing is - using capital instead of sweat and time to make money.

[Kennethkohsg]

tfb

this is a really interesting issue - and I think it is an ethical question we should all think about, including people of faith but no only them. Most investers, even the nonreligious ones wouldn't like to think of themselves as cold darwinists.

Some extra ponderings on the topic of creating booms that make it harder for poeple to buy ppors as an ethical dilemma

1 - If I only ever buy in a slump, am I hurting anyone?

2 - If no investors bought, there would be a shortage of rentals and rentals would go up, what would that do to the first home buyers wanting to breed? (I am one)

3 - Is one person buying 1 or a couple of ips really going to effect the price of a town/suburb/nation?

4 - given the above question, should we think of ourselves as individuals or a collective force?

5 - should first home buyers be able to buy a home near work/family etc as a right? or is this a privelage, choice etc (eg for me to buy any freehold dump with a backyard near my family would 500k - is that unfair?)

Keen to hear more on this
****************************************************
Dear Knightm,

1. Australia is a much blessed country and has plentiful of land supply, as compared to Singapore, whose 4 million people are squatting at the truly land-scarce, small little red dot.

2. I think the real bottomline issue is one of lifestyle choices and affordable housing and our own attitude towards living preferences.

3. As most Australians choose to live exclusively only in certain ("seemingly" more desirable) areas and choose to compete with one another for the so-called limited land area, it is a matter of time, where some Australians, who are entering the same market late, will eventually be priced out of their 1st home, at one time or the other.

4. Today, living in Sydney CDB area is expensive and not readily affordable to most young Australians.

5. However, if the abovementioned social phenomenon continues, it is a question of time when living in the Melbourne CBD area and eventually all the other Australian capital cities ( and even the future new cities/towns) will eventually become unaffordable too over time.

6. On the other hand, if we choose to live within our means and to live in the more affordable areas ahead of its future booming times, we are unlikely to be priced out as long as we are prepared to adapt and live in the seemingly "less desirable" places in Australia, which may one day turn out to be one of the new big winners in the near future.

7. So, if we are pragmatic, we may start off as renting a house to live in. At certain time in life, we would be able to upgrade ourselves as a house owner eventually, given the Australian great dream and aspirations as long as we can remain productively employed. People who rent a house to stay, is not neccessarily "poor" as other thread discussions have shown.

8. I can safely and comfortably make this claim for Australia and for Singapore where some form of demorcracies exists. However, such opportunities may not be so readily available in certain societies.

9. For your kind update and further discussion ,please.

10. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

[Kennethkohsg]

Re: winwin For me where the rubber hits the road is how I treat the people I am directly effecting. So I dont like kicking out tenants just to renno - would prefer to buy a prop thats already vacant or work with the tenants so we are all happy. Also have had tenant applications with tica histories etc. Have taken a chance on them and they paid the rent fine - they were gratefull to be able to clear their name.

Small things I know but like you just looking for ways to do things with a sense of ethics.

I am open to big picture ethical discussions too, but for something like property investment its built into the capitalist system of private ownership and trade.

to critique ip investing as right or wrong simplistically is useless as it needs to be considered in context.

maybe a better question is "Is it ethical to use money to earn more money?" Coz at the end of the day thats what all investing is - using capital instead of sweat and time to make money.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
Dear KnightM,

1. Well said... in particular "to critique ip investing as right or wrong simplistically is useless as it needs to be considered in context."

2. To answer your question, "Is it ethical to use money to earn more money?" Coz at the end of the day thats what all investing is - using capital instead of sweat and time to make money" - since Australia ( and Singapore) are basically shares the same free entreprises and capitalist system, I would think that the answer will be self-evident unless we first try define the word, "ethical" and find some basic common ground in its definition and its present inherent "ethical" dilemma faced by some individual investors living a such a society, whereby they face some form of inner (self-)conflicts between their personal life values/beliefs vis-a-vis some of the existing social values or human behavioural/thinking norms and trends with the wider Australian society.

3. For your kind update, please.

4. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

[Kennethkohsg]

[QUOTE=thefirstbruce]1 - If I only ever buy in a slump, am I hurting anyone?

Depends if you outbid a first home buyer I suppose. You could argue you are competing against the younger buyer to provide for your own retirement. They could argue that if they have to pay more for a house, then they will delay having kids, and you won't have anyone providing services to you when you are older, unless we start importing labour from Asia. I am not a raging leftie, but I do accept that self interest cannot be pursued without consideration of its affects on others. And I feel these effects are unhealthily ignored on this forum.

Whether you hurt anyone also depends on whether you sell at the top of a boom, in the knowledge that prices may come down. Obviously your buyer is going to take a loss in that situation. You might ask yourself whether you would sell to your young nephew at the top of a boom for market value.

QUOTE]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
Dear theFirstbruce,

1. Interesting reply indeed.

2. You said, "I do accept that self interest cannot be pursued without consideration of its affects on others. And I feel these effects are unhealthily ignored on this forum."

3. While I can and will like to agree with your statement to a certain extent, I am also sure that some forum members will also argue and point out that "Wealth Creation" and "Ethics" to not truly mix well. i.e would we, as investors, rather be "right/fair", rather than be "rich" in our property investing activities?

4. While some investors can be both rich and right/fair at the same time, others may not. Nor do they believe in such kind of thinking/life philosophy, as illustrated by the exchange of views/words between the highly vocal Neil Jenman and his own critics.

5. You said, "Whether you hurt anyone also depends on whether you sell at the top of a boom, in the knowledge that prices may come down. Obviously your buyer is going to take a loss in that situation."...Sometimes we can be right about our own market assessement/prediction and some times we are proven wrong by the actual reality in the real time market developments.

6. Likewise, I think that a wise/resonable buyer should do his/her own basic research and due diligence first before investing. To me, this is basic self-responsibility and choosing to invest safely and wisely.

7. To invest without doing proper research and due diligence first, is like intentionally choosing/opting to be the (lazy) big fool who has willingly "asked" himself/herself, to buy the house at the market peak price.

8. Should the vendor then, be held responsible for the buyer's laziness and mistake in this case?.. I do not think so, honestly speaking.

9. You says, "You might ask yourself whether you would sell to your young nephew at the top of a boom for market value." To me, I will reply you as such, "... provided my nephew chooses/bothers to ask me in the first place;-, otherwise how am I to know that he is going to buy the house and at such a time as the market peak ? And/OR even IF I have wisely/proactively cautioned him, does he really bothers to listen to his own uncle's words vis-a-vis what he has heard from some of the so-called "gurus" in the market.". It's is his own choice and responsibility when he makes the decision himself and he will learn to "grow" up himself eventually and learn who to listen to and who not to listen to.

10. While I subscribe to your principle of "do to others what I would want others to do to ourselves", however, IF some people intentionally choose to remain ignorant and choose to remain un-educated about the property investing game intentionally, are we then, to be truly blamed for their deliberate ignorance?

11.... And if we proceed to pro-actively "preach" such ethics/teachings to them, we may also be openly accused of trying to impose our (Christian) views/ethics on them. So, what leave us then?

12. For your kind update and further discussion, please.

13. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

[Kennethkohsg]

[QUOTE=thefirstbruce]
3 - Is one person buying 1 or a couple of ips really going to effect the price of a town/suburb/nation?


One person doesn't cause a boom like the last one we had. So this question is irrelevant.

[I]
QUOTE]
***************************************
Dear theFirstBruce,

1. From your own a/m answer, it is clear that you are fully aware and knows for a fact that one single investor does not cause the property boom/bust;- (rather it's the collective works of the herd instincts that collectively drives the market;-), yet you had still chosen to ask me the same question by implications;- if I am troubled and responsible for (indirectly) causing/contributing to the problem of seeing young Australians to be priced out from their housing, as an investor?"

2. So, I am not sure what exactly are you trying to say in your original question? ..." that as good Christians/people, we should not invest in property?"

3. Please clarify your questions and its underlying thinking?

4. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

[lizzie]

maybe a better question is "Is it ethical to use money to earn more money?" Coz at the end of the day thats what all investing is - using capital instead of sweat and time to make money.
ah yes - but is it ethical to expect future generations of taxpayers to fund our retirement and medical expenses?

i think we have an obligation to invest now, to self fund when we get to old to work, instead of demanding our grandchildren pay our pittance of a pension and expecting them to pick up the tab for all the concessions we would be entitled to plus the hip replacement, denture work, heart bypass, pharmacutical benefits scheme etc.

if that means we finish work earlier than others, and pour our investment dividends back into the community to keep they cycle of money turning, then that is also an obligation we have.

p.s. i totally agree that faith and religion are two different entities - i have faith and belief in a greater force, but i do not believe in any religion. for some reason the universe offers more assistance and opportunities to those who work hard to make them happen. ;)

[Kennethkohsg]

I have learnt not to expect fairness in life, but to try to do all I can to create it, being guided from within. If we all start not giving a toss about the next guy, we will quickly live in a hell on earth. It is trust and honour and integrity that allowed modern civilization to develop and be sustained. Lose that and it won't matter how much property you have because you won't keep it for long.[/QUOTE]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Very well said indeed!

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

[thefirstbruce]

***************************************
Dear theFirstBruce,

1. From your own a/m answer, it is clear that you are fully aware and knows for a fact that one single investor does not cause the property boom/bust;- (rather it's the collective works of the herd instincts that collectively drives the market;-), yet you had still chosen to ask me the same question by implications;- if I am troubled and responsible for (indirectly) causing/contributing to the problem of seeing young Australians to be priced out from their housing, as an investor?"

2. So, I am not sure what exactly are you trying to say in your original question? ..." that as good Christians/people, we should not invest in property?"

3. Please clarify your questions and its underlying thinking?

4. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

Kenneth, all I am saying is that we think about the repercussions of our actions a little more honestly and clearly, a little more intelligently.....And not hide our heads in the sands of obfuscated self justification and herd greed.

Then, let your own conscience/God guide you.

I raised the issues that I did, because they are real issues, with real serious consequences for the future of Australia.

I don't have specific answers as AussieRogue correctly noted. But if we all think and work a little smarter and insightfully, then we'll have better options to ask God help us choose between.

[Kennethkohsg]

Kenneth, all I am saying is that we think about the repercussions of our actions a little more honestly and clearly, a little more intelligently.....And not hide our heads in the sands of obfuscated self justification and herd greed.

Then, let your own conscience/God guide you.

I raised the issues that I did, because they are real issues, with real serious consequences for the future of Australia.

I don't have specific answers as AussieRogue correctly noted. But if we all think and work a little smarter and insightfully, then we'll have better options to ask God help us choose between.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear TheFirstBruce,

1. What does the Bible truly says about property investing per se?

2. Let me ask you back, "As a investor, do you honestly think if you have "sinned" against God or/and offend your own good conscience by investing? Why?

3. As a fellow Christian, I am honestly and sincerely interested to learn from you, as to why this is so or/and has to be so when the Bible has not specifically written about this subject?

4. In the sanctuary of our own hearts, IF we have indeed, already judged and honestly "condemned" our own worldy actions/behaviours because it is at "conflicts" with our own Christian values and beliefs, then I believe that we have not truly honoured God by our own actions/behaviours/beliefs in our own hearts, honestly speaking. To a certain extent, I believe that we have also "sinned" against God because we have NOT truthfully and honestly "living by faith" as we have been exhorted to.

5. You said, "I raised the issues that I did, because they are real issues, with real serious consequences for the future of Australia. " Do you not think that I am also raising an equally important and basic Mankind issue like housing, for you (and the other interested members) to ponder too further and on a more deeper level, whether the land concerned is in Australia, Singapore, America, Indonesia or otherwise?

6. Why think of ourselves as "Australians" only and not as fellow members of the same MANKIND/human race, as God will want us to see oursevles instead?

7. Do you seriously and honestly believe and think that God only wants "Australia" to be inhabited by/for "Australians" only, as this secular world of politics will want all of us to believe?... I humbly pray and ask that His Holy Spirit will further enlighten you on this issue and also on your own thinking, to as to acheive a deeper level of self-understanding, please.

8. Please quietly sit back and reflect over this issue deeply with a cool head before responding to me. Please re-read all my postings on this thread again if neccessary before you respond further.

9. As far as my own personal Christian teachings and understandings are concerned, I am also prepared to stand corrected where neccessary, please.


10. Let us set aside our own emotions and objectively examine the topic and its related logic/argument, in greater depth, for our own mutual good and collective learning purposes.

11. Thank you.


With Brotherly Love,
Kenneth KOH

[Mark Laszczuk]

I'm kinda confused by your views myself tfb. I don't understand where you're coming from with the whole 'investing in property might make it harder for others to get into property' view. Do you honestly believe that it is harder for young people to purchase property now than it was say, 20 years ago?

Yeah, we're coming off a boom. Yeah, property is overvalued, it's part of the cycle. There is always property somewhere that young people can afford. It might not be where they want, but they can get it if they really want it. The question is, are they willing to work for it and find ways to afford it? Why is it that you see examples of couples on small incomes in their own homes and at the same time see couples on large incomes contining to rent because 'they can't afford their own place'?

Look at Kristine's children - they can afford property on very very small incomes. Yes, they are IP's. Yes, they live at home. However, a young couple with a double income wouldn't have trouble finding a place to buy if they really wanted it. If they can't find something now, what's the harm in waiting a few years for prices to come off? Or until they are able to save a larger deposit?

Like Kenneth said, it's up to the individual to take responsibility for their own actions and decisions. Can you explain to me why, as an investor I should take into account whether Joe Blow can or cannot afford to buy the property I would like to purchase as an IP?

It's not 'me vs. the world' but I don't see why not taking into consideration why some couple can't afford the property they want for whatever reason - usually due to their own attitudes of 'I want the best and I want it now' should stop me from purchasing if I can. Taking that view, I wouldn't purchase anything - ever. Then I'd end up on the pension and totally reliant on Govt. handouts.

As investors we all work damn hard and sacrifice to differing levels to be able to afford to purchase those IP's. So again, can you explain to me why purchasing a property that in turn drives the value up is such a bad thing?

Let people take responsibility for their own choices, don't blame those that succeed.

Just one more thing - with this attitude of yours - why do you invest in property?

Mark

[thefirstbruce]

1. What does the Bible truly says about property investing per se?

2. Let me ask you back, "As a investor, do you honestly think if you have "sinned" against God or/and offend your own good conscience by investing? Why?



Kenneth, I am not a master student of the Bible. I doubt it says anything specifically about property investing, just as it says nothing per se about smoking dope or injecting heroin or listening to rock music. The Bible is difficult to interpret because it says many things, applicable to different circumstances, apparently. If you read Genesis or Daniel, you'd be a vegetarian. If you read elsewhere, you'd eat meat.

Though the Bible says a lot about usury, and inconsistently so. Some parts say you can charge foreigners interest, but you can't charge your brother. Other parts say you can't use usury at all. If you haven't studied this, then I recommend you get an electronic Bible from BibleOcean.com.

As regards investing, one can invest 10 hours a week in buying shares that one hopes someone will pay 10% more for tomorrow.

One could also invest those 10 hours a week in volunteering their time to build a hospital or school in an underprivileged town or suburb. And make substantial friendships for life.

Or one could invest 10 extra hours a week building their business so as to employ 5 extra staff, and export goods overseas and help balance Australia's trade deficit.

At the end of the day, I am trying to elaborate that passive property investment isn't the pinnacle of smart investing. And that a balance is required between how much property is procured by investors versus owner occupiers. When that balance is thrown off, there are serious social ramifications, that you don't seem to be accepting Kenneth. I can assure you these issues are of serious concern to all levels of government in Australia.

[thefirstbruce]

I'm kinda confused by your views myself tfb. I don't understand where you're coming from with the whole 'investing in property might make it harder for others to get into property' view. Do you honestly believe that it is harder for young people to purchase property now than it was say, 20 years ago?


Yes Mark, I do believe that. As does the RBA. They have published several studies recently on housing affordability that you might like to have a read of. Compare the median price of metro homes vs median household income for a start. Then throw on top of that, that more households now rely on dual incomes; and stats for full employment now include those who can only find part time or casual full time work. Then consider the average age women first became pregnant in the 1960s versus now, then throw in comparative average family size then and now. Then factor in that household income in those days was generally dependent on one wage.

Then consider that one of the largest factors driving down affordability is the growing size of major cities. Thus there is more competition for housing close to job markets.


Yeah, we're coming off a boom. Yeah, property is overvalued, it's part of the cycle. There is always property somewhere that young people can afford.


Affordability has never been this overvalued before, esp in the capitals.

Yes, I suppose there's always somewhere people can afford property, especially if they've got time for a 3 hour commute to where the jobs are....

You mightn't have heard Ian McFarlane tell young people to leave Sydney and go and live somewhere else. Unfortunately, he didn't tell employers to move jobs out of Sydney too.



It might not be where they want, but they can get it if they really want it. The question is, are they willing to work for it and find ways to afford it? Why is it that you see examples of couples on small incomes in their own homes and at the same time see couples on large incomes contining to rent because 'they can't afford their own place'?

Look at Kristine's children - they can afford property on very very small incomes. Yes, they are IP's. Yes, they live at home. However, a young couple with a double income wouldn't have trouble finding a place to buy if they really wanted it. If they can't find something now, what's the harm in waiting a few years for prices to come off? Or until they are able to save a larger deposit?


Mark, you are ignoring one of my major thrusts, that of the impact of lower affordability on fertility rates.... You are also ignoring that there are now significant time and $ costs such as HECS necessary to compete in the job market. As you might be aware, we are exporting more and more unskilled jobs.

Feel free to write off my concerns as irrelevant rants, but these things are being discussed by the Coalition, Labor, the minor parties, the ATO, and RBA right now, in an effort to stop property investors imposing more hardship on first home buyers. If you expect negative gearing to offer the same benefits in 5 years time as it does now, then I think you are in for a big surprise.



Like Kenneth said, it's up to the individual to take responsibility for their own actions and decisions. Can you explain to me why, as an investor I should take into account whether Joe Blow can or cannot afford to buy the property I would like to purchase as an IP?

It's not 'me vs. the world' but I don't see why not taking into consideration why some couple can't afford the property they want for whatever reason - usually due to their own attitudes of 'I want the best and I want it now' should stop me from purchasing if I can. Taking that view, I wouldn't purchase anything - ever. Then I'd end up on the pension and totally reliant on Govt. handouts.


Mark, you might know a lot of people who want the best now, but half the workforce earns under the median income. Do you know what the minimum wage is Mark? And how long it would take to save a $30k deposit on that, as well as pay rent?





As investors we all work damn hard and sacrifice to differing levels to be able to afford to purchase those IP's. So again, can you explain to me why purchasing a property that in turn drives the value up is such a bad thing?


Go and read some of the stuff coming out of the RBA. THen go and work in an unconditioned meatworks in Rockhampton 40 hours a week, or as a roofer....for $15 an hour....then you'll know some others' ideas of hard work.



Let people take responsibility for their own choices, don't blame those that succeed.

That sounds very much like "me versus the world" Mark



Just one more thing - with this attitude of yours - why do you invest in property?


Property is one thing I invest in Mark. I invest in business and shares and people. When I invest in property, I aim for a win/win scenario. One where I can fill a hole in supply/demand dynamics. I try not to sit back and passively wait for property to magically go up in price.

Further, it is only in the last 2-3 years that the issues I have raised have become acute. And I am constantly trying to adapt/evolve my investment philosophy into something more informed and constructive. Passive property investment doesn't take a lot of brains Mark. In fact it'd be the dumbest form of investment I can imagine.

I gain satisfaction from working smarter. It makes me feel I am growing as a human. Finally, I am trying to stimulate a bit of deep thought and rational debate on the long term consequences of investing in property, as opposed to investing in other things that have better outcomes. I accept that not everyone has the acumen or inclination to think astutely or rationally about the matter. THey are the ones that will have the hardest time adapting to the inevitbale tax changes re the negative gearing of investment property

[Mark Laszczuk]

tfb,

Some interesting points there. I don't agree with most of them, but that's okay - if we all agreed on everything, nothing would change.

I would like to address some points there however.

Feel free to write off my concerns as irrelevant rants, but these things are being discussed by the Coalition, Labor, the minor parties, the ATO, and RBA right now, in an effort to stop property investors imposing more hardship on first home buyers. If you expect negative gearing to offer the same benefits in 5 years time as it does now, then I think you are in for a big surprise.

- Where did I write anything you said off as 'irrelevant rants'?
- How are investors imposing hardship on first home buyers?
- Can you honestly tell me these 'discussions' by the major parties aren't just fluff to score votes? Little Johnny doesn't seem to be too concerned about the working classes, given his IR legislation.
- Please point out in my post where I mentioned negative gearing.

Mark, you might know a lot of people who want the best now, but half the workforce earns under the median income. Do you know what the minimum wage is Mark? And how long it would take to save a $30k deposit on that, as well as pay rent?

TFB, I have always earned well below the median income. I am very well aware of what the minimum wage is - I've been earning it or close to it for most of my working life, sometimes below it. I am also very well aware of how long it takes to save $30,000 on close to the minimum wage while renting - because I did it. And I was renting in St Kilda, which isn't exactly cheap. Like I said, there are people that are willing to take responsibility and there are people that refuse to.

Just to let you know, I have a friend who was on the same wages as me who bought a house 3 hrs away from work - yes, she travelled three hours each way daily to get to work. Ideal? Of course not! But hey - she has the option of using the growth in that property now to buy something closer. Would that growth happen now? Not likely, but there are ALWAYS options. Making excuses for people based on low affordability doesn't solve anything.

Go and read some of the stuff coming out of the RBA. THen go and work in an unconditioned meatworks in Rockhampton 40 hours a week, or as a roofer....for $15 an hour....then you'll know some others' ideas of hard work.

How dare you! You have NO idea what my working history is, you have NO idea what I've had to do to get to where I am today. How about you leave emotion out of this discussion and get down off your soap box? By the way, $15 an hour is more - significantly more - than the wages I've earned for most of my working life.

Let people take responsibility for their own choices, don't blame those that succeed.

That sounds very much like "me versus the world" Mark

Explain to me how that is 'me vs. the world'.

I gain satisfaction from working smarter. It makes me feel I am growing as a human. Finally, I am trying to stimulate a bit of deep thought and rational debate on the long term consequences of investing in property, as opposed to investing in other things that have better outcomes. I accept that not everyone has the acumen or inclination to think astutely or rationally about the matter. THey are the ones that will have the hardest time adapting to the inevitbale tax changes re the negative gearing of investment property

What is it that you are saying here? Again, what does negative gearing have to do with anything I discussed?

We have a number of issues relating to population and housing, etc here in Australia, but to point the finger at investors and accuse them of being the ones that are holding first home buyers back is, in my opinion, nonsense. It solves nothing and the real issues get left behind. Without investors in the market, - for the Govt. - housing everyone would be a nightmare, nigh on impossible. But you're a sharp guy, you knew that already.

Mark

[thefirstbruce]

We have a number of issues relating to population and housing, etc here in Australia, but to point the finger at investors and accuse them of being the ones that are holding first home buyers back is, in my opinion, nonsense. It solves nothing and the real issues get left behind. Without investors in the market, - for the Govt. - housing everyone would be a nightmare, nigh on impossible. But you're a sharp guy, you knew that already.

Mark

Mark, negative gearing has everything to do with what I am saying.
Don't take my word for it.
But please consider reading some of these links, esp the RBA one. It will explain in detail much of what I have alluded to above:
http://www.rba.gov.au/PublicationsAndResearch/SubmissionsToParliamentaryCommittees/productivity_commision_inquiry_on_first_home_ownership.html
http://www.domain.com.au/Public/Article.aspx?id=1130720521159&index=NationalIndex
http://www.domain.com.au/Public/Article.aspx?index=PropertyNews&id=1130720521242
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/23/1087845011162.html?oneclick=true
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2004/s1086667.htm
http://afr.com/articles/2004/06/23/1087845008042.html

[taylord68]

Mark, negative gearing has everything to do with what I am saying.
Don't take my word for it.
But please consider reading some of these links, esp the RBA one. It will explain in detail much of what I have alluded to above:


nice link list tfb,
whilst I didn't read them all, I found the RBA one worth reading if only for the content to help me continue to understand that housing over time continues to be one of the key pillars of my overall investment plan. The article provides an insight into the current govt thinking and provides info to check my overall strategy and potential steps I may need to plan for in that strategy delivery

thanks for the thought provoking concepts.

[knightm]

Wow I love watching how these things become a beast all their own!

Good posting everyone - esp tfb for persevering with your points. Sometimes u have a blunt way of saying things that gets people upity but thats fun on these forums ;)

Agree boomers may cause serious distortions in investment property market ratios and this is likely to cause amendments (rollbacks) to neg gearing to lessen the attractiveness of ips. Is this ethics or just the way things are? I dunno.

Also tfb interesting point that ips aren't the highest form of investment. I agree, and beleive that it is not unethical of itself (providing housing is better than providing an adictive and lethal substances like cigarettes etc), but not inherently good either.

starting a business from scratch, coming up with ideas to solve problems, directly employing staff - is definitely more active, more creative, and probably a "more pure" form of making money but still has the potential to be done with good or bad ethics.

I guess if we cant ask ourselves some hard questions then we wont grow - simple as that.

[monoply]

Other reasons property is out of range for a lot of first home buyes have been mentioned before, but I will mention the again.

As mentioned people in this age, watch tv, and read the glossy magazines, and want the best first up, rather than starting at the bottom in a lesser suburb, and upgrading over time.

Also young people dont want to stay at home with mum and dad, until they save up a deposit. They want to move out at 18, into a nice apartment, and live the fast life with friends.

While I think its harder than ever to enter the market now for first home buyers, its still achievable for anyone who saves, minimum 10% of what they make. People can save a deposit on the dole even if they need to, although they would need to look in a rural/country area.

Cheers
mono

[Kennethkohsg]

And that a balance is required between how much property is procured by investors versus owner occupiers. When that balance is thrown off, there are serious social ramifications, that you don't seem to be accepting Kenneth. I can assure you these issues are of serious concern to all levels of government in Australia.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear theFirstBruce,

1. No, I think you have mis-understood my position.

2. I do agree with your position and concerns on this issue specifically.

3. What I am in effect saying are as follows:

a. To each his/her own, as far as property investing is concerned. This is because as property investors, we all have different callings in life and we all have different life attitudes/values system towards wealth creation and personal life ethics, especially those with different religions and values system.

b. To me, Monies/Wealth creation is and of itself is not evil, according to the Bible. It is our love of MONIES ( which in itself is considered as a form of idol worshipping or for that matter, if our love for other things, people, activities etc), that cause us to love God less or/and cause us to replace God in our own lives, is the root of all evils.

c. There may be some Christains who have the mistaken beliefs that God wants all Christians to be "poor" and that being rich (in this earthly) life is something that all Christians ought to shun away from. I do not agree with such kind of inaccurate and presumptous Christain teachings/positions at all (as I personally believe God wants all His children to prosper) though I also do agree too that it is easier for the poor and the meek to enter the Kingdom of God, than the rich people in general, as is presently taught in the Bible.

d. There is always 2 sides to the same coin/argument, (and I am not trying to justify myself here. Neither do I need to here, as I am very clear what I am doing vis-a-vis my own Christain faith).

e. To some people, investing in rental properties can help to create jobs and cause the Australian economy to boom/sustain over a longer periuod of time as well as helping the Australian Govt to help provide low cost affordable housing to help some Australians to have a roof over their heads through the house renting option. To others, they seem to "blame" the investors for exploiting the poor indirectly and profit themsevles at the expense of the poor and yet at the same time, they fail to a provide a pragmatic and cost-effective answer to house the poor adequately and failing to appreciate the positive benefits of investors buying into rental properties.

f. Australia is a much blessed country and has plentiful of land supply. At the root and basic issue of housing affordability, is definitely not one of natural land supply per se;- but rather the Man-made economics concept of "limited land supply" and its subsequent land pricings, as created by the Human Race.

g. Why the housing is made "un-affordable" is fundamentally, a result/outcome of people's lifestyle choices and their competitive human nature to bid up the price of certain seemingly socially desirable areas selfishly, until the land prices becomes un-affordable to the other people.

h. Examining this basic social phenomenon in a greater depth and at a more basic fundamental level, we can see MAN is actually trying to "selfishly" acquire and to keep what he/she perceives to be the "best" lands wholly for themselves, without due regard to share with the general public, even though the ultimate " best" lands ( as deemed by God) need not neccessarily be the most expensive ones.

i. Thus, the issue of housing unaffordability is a MAN-made problem, and as a result of the herd instincts and Man-made concept of (limited) land supply and land pricings economics.

j. We always have a choice not to follow this same selfish herd instincts. Not do we need to at all if we truly and sincerely beleive and trust God as the source of all our Providence.

k. We can always choose to live in more affordable areas and discover/appreciate or/and help create, the natural beauty in the new or/and more affordable suburbs, by God's Grace.

l. While, it may sound idealistic and self-sacrificing though to being deemed ridiculous by some, by deliberately choosing to live in the seemingly less socially desirable and thus more affordable areas, we are in effect, actually showing our love and respect and to intentionally deferring/allowing our neighbours/others to have the seemingly better lands for themselves as was socially/collectively perceived at this point in time, while we try to learn look to and trust God for His Providence and Blessings in our lives with respect to the so-called housing benefits.

m. Eventually, other people start to see/ discover the same beauty in the new/more affordable suburbs and start to compete for them and evetually bid up the land prices there until they become the new hotspot growth areas.

n. Thus, if we are realistic and pragmatic, we can always look to live in the new affordable areas/suburbs or/and to consider renting in the prevailing expensive suburbs which are being perceived as socially more desirable.

o. Human choices always come with a price and a trade off.

p. It is up to each of us to be self-responsible and to live responsibly and realistically with our own means especially in respect to our own housing choices.

q. Blaming others/investors for causing the suburbs to be priced out is not a healthy nor a fruitful solution.

r. Assuming if we all choose to follow para k-n , instead of blindly following the present herd instinct, by creating more supply of new socially desirable areas to live in, it will not be as easy for us to be priced out for our own housing needs, as it is now and provided all the Australian peoples are willing to co-operate with one another to make this a reality for themselves and their own children/future generations.

s. Personally, I do not think that MAN will eventually grow to "over-populate" the Mother Earth. Not do I think God will allow it. It is however, up to Mankind to find his own place on Mother Earth and in the Great Universe that God has created.

4. For your kind update, please.

5. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

[Kennethkohsg]

[QUOTE=thefirstbruce]Kenneth, I am not a master student of the Bible. I doubt it says anything specifically about property investing, just as it says nothing per se about smoking dope or injecting heroin or listening to rock music. The Bible is difficult to interpret because it says many things, applicable to different circumstances, apparently. If you read Genesis or Daniel, you'd be a vegetarian. If you read elsewhere, you'd eat meat.

Though the Bible says a lot about usury, and inconsistently so. Some parts say you can charge foreigners interest, but you can't charge your brother. Other parts say you can't use usury at all. If you haven't studied this, then I recommend you get an electronic Bible from BibleOcean.com.

QUOTE]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear theFirstBruce,

1. My Christian faith is a simple one of LOVE, as was/is taught by and summed up by Jesus Christ Himself in the Bible into the following 2 commandments:

1. Love the Lord, Our God first... with all our hearts.
2. Love our neighbours/others as we will want others to love us"


2. Personally for me, it not what we eat or/and do that actually sin against God per se;- rather, it is when we fail to love/to acknowledge God and His presence in our own lives be it in all our thoughts, actions, behaviours or/and failing to love others as we love ourselves.

3.To state and sum up our Christian faith simply and in the positively sense, we are simplyl called to show/manifest and spread His Spirit of LOVE among our fellow Mankind.

4. For your kind update, please.

5. Thank you.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

[Kennethkohsg]

Other reasons property is out of range for a lot of first home buyes have been mentioned before, but I will mention the again.

As mentioned people in this age, watch tv, and read the glossy magazines, and want the best first up, rather than starting at the bottom in a lesser suburb, and upgrading over time.

Also young people dont want to stay at home with mum and dad, until they save up a deposit. They want to move out at 18, into a nice apartment, and live the fast life with friends.

While I think its harder than ever to enter the market now for first home buyers, its still achievable for anyone who saves, minimum 10% of what they make. People can save a deposit on the dole even if they need to, although they would need to look in a rural/country area.

Cheers
mono
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
Dear Monopoly,

1. Very well said indeed.


Dear theFirstBruce,

1. I think Monopoly has summed up one part of the equation on your house non-affordability issue, very well in her post, which I think that you may have failed to acknowledge, in the first place.

2. Secondly, it is also interesting to note that whether it was 20 years ago, 30 years ago or now, the proportion of house ownership in Australia between owners-occupiers and rental housing (as owned by investors) has remained largely and consistently around 70% and 30% respectively. What conclusions can we then draw from this interesting observation?

3. So how, many people do you personally reckoned, were actually being priced out of the housing affordability across time, if we were to conduct a longitudinal studies?...OR is this housing issue, actually caused by more young people trying to live beyond their means unrealistically and having to make some adjustments to their own housing need expectations realistically speaking?

4. Why do you think that Australian Govt continues to encourage the investors to continue to invest into the rental housing sector through their deliberate policy of providing generous tax benefits for the property investors? Are they some constructive roles played by these investors concerned, as far as the Australian Govt is concerned that you are prepared to acknowledge? If so, what are these social and national benefits gained by Australia through property investing by investors?

5. For your kind update and considerations, please.

6. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

[Kennethkohsg]

Dear theFirstBruce,

1. I just want to share with you this property investing experience that I have, at the Anchorage Estate, at Rockingham coastal suburb, which is some 45 Km south of Perth CBD.

2. When the land price was about $58,000-$68,000 per vacant lot back in 2002, the local people who have been living there during all these time, did not believe in buying into this coastal suburb then.

3. I first invested into this suburb in late 2002/early 2003 on 2 pieces of vacant land for about $72,000-$75,000 per vacant land lot, the local people continue to ignore the suburb.

4. Now, fast forward to the present day in 2005, when Australand no longer has any land for sale again after its last Stage 17 Land Release, yet a lot of the local people are now begining/keep on wanting to buy into this same Estate (which they chosen to ignore some 2 years back) now even though the vacant land price has risen to some $180,000 per vacant lot in the resale market.

5. Such is the nature of our own human behaviours and the operation of the herd instincts.

6. I am sure that we can all expect to hear soon that some Australians will similarly complained about going to be priced out from this coastal suburb too, in the near future.

7. So, do we blame the local people for ignoring their land and getting low values for their land in the past or do we blame the new investors for causing the land values in this suburb to rise?

8. I will like to hear your own personal views in this case.

9. Thank you.


regards,
Kenneth

[thefirstbruce]

4. Now, fast forward to the present day in 2005, when Australand no longer has any land for sale again after its last Stage 17 Land Release, yet a lot of the local people are now begining/keep on wanting to buy into this same Estate (which they chosen to ignore some 2 years back) now even though the vacant land price has risen to some $180,000 per vacant lot in the resale market.

5. Such is the nature of our own human behaviours and the operation of the herd instincts.

6. I am sure that we can all expect to hear soon that some Australians will similarly complained about going to be priced out from this coastal suburb too, in the near future.

7. So, do we blame the local people for ignoring their land and getting low values for their land in the past or do we blame the new investors for causing the land values in this suburb to rise?



regards,
Kenneth

Kenneth, in response to your many points above, I respond thus:

- if you are happy in not pursuing a more enlightened way to accumulate wealth, other then to buy property that the herd will drive up in price out of ignorance, then that is where you are on your investment journey. I am merely trying to point out the folly of believing the herd will run forever, and the lost opportunity of smart people not taking a more informed approach to investing.

- My views remain partial to those expressed in the links I provided above. Please absorb them before further discussion, as they will clarify many of the issues I have tried to express above. They are the views of the governor of the RBA and respected Australian tax experts. I don't claim to have made them up when contemplating my navel in the desert :)

- As for what Christianity is and isn't, I'm happy to leave that up to scholars.

[Kennethkohsg]

[QUOTE=thefirstbruce
- if you are happy in not pursuing a more enlightened way to accumulate wealth, other then to buy property that the herd will drive up in price out of ignorance, then that is where you are on your investment journey.
[/QUOTE]
**********************************8
Dear thefirstbruce,

1. I am definitely open and more than happy to learn from you (as well as the other members) other new/more enlightened ways to build/accumulate wealth if you care to show and teach me how, as long as it is line with our Christian faith and values system.

2. Thank you.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

[Kennethkohsg]

- My views remain partial to those expressed in the links I provided above. Please absorb them before further discussion, as they will clarify many of the issues I have tried to express above. They are the views of the governor of the RBA and respected Australian tax experts. I don't claim to have made them up when contemplating my navel in the desert :)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear thefirstbruce,

1. As the present thread concerns "Investing and spirituality", the issues referred by you is best discussed separately under another new thread separately.

2. It is said, "Politics is dirty". Do you really belieive and trust the politicians over what they have said publicly?... Sorry, I generally don't, myself.

3. To me, politics is actually a game of public persuasion to influence and to seize the power to rule the masses. I always have to remind myself why a particular person is saying what and for what openly stated purposes and (undisclosed) intentions/motives, especially if that person is a known politician... Is the contents of the speech/opinions experessed meant for public consumption only or truly reflective of what a particular politician truly believes and means what he/she said.

4. Yes, I will read and check out what some of the top civil servants in Australia are saying what they want to say about a particular subject but I have to also bear in mind that it is ultimately the politicians which rule the country, who will actually decide how a particular policy is to be decidced/played out ultimately.

5. To me, often it is what that is "unwritten" and "unstated publicly" by the politicians/govt that is truly important for me, as to real reasons/rationale underlying a particular public policy which the Govt/politicians are introducing for the first time in general.

6. For your kind update, please.

7. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

[thefirstbruce]

Kenneth, I am trying my best to make money ethically, though I am also here on the forum to learn from others.

Some of the things I am considering at the moment are medium term accomodation, storage sheds, auto car washes, and a combined health spa/gymnasium - all in regional areas of Qld where there is demand for these.

Other things I am invested in currently are an earthworks business specializing in boulder walls, a telecommunications tower installation business specializing in very remote tower installs (this is soon to expand into manufacturing the telecommunication towers). And my physiotherapy business.

I am also researching with a psychologist, a software backend module for online introduction sites such as www.rsvp.com.au, which aims to apply scientifically validated compatibility criteria. Some might question the ethics of this, as I did when i first pondered it. However, I have come to believe the advantages outweigh any disadvantages...

I suppose at the end of the day, to invest ethically and wisely is to open one's eyes and talk to people openly every week about business and opportunity and where there is legitimate demand for goods or services....then provide same more cost effectively, more intelligently, and with superior service.

[thefirstbruce]

P.S. I am finding it more and more true as I get older Kenneth, that you must feel you have Life/God behind you on an investment. If you do, then you'll move mountains. You seem to have a resilient nature Kenneth, one that I think could move mountains too, if you felt the support of your God.

[Kennethkohsg]

Dear theFirstBruce,

1. As the Lord leads and His Holy Spirit reveals, I learn to wait patiently upon His Guidance and learn to walk humbly in His ways, putting in practice what I have learnt from Him, into my everyday life, as He has enabled me too, in my own property investing journey to date.

2. To me, the wealth creation process through the property investing has been very much like the process of physically farming a land crop, there is always a time to work, time to wait, time to harvest, time to celebrate and honour God but in all our doing/actions, waiting, harvesting and celebrations, we must always remember God and His Wonderful Grace and take time to commune with Him on a daily basis.

3. Beside our own human labour to till and add fertilisers to the ground, there is always the Sun and the rain that will cause the crops to grow and prosper the land by itself while we wait for the right time to harvest it in due course.

4. Unless we acknowledge God and the intrinsic roles played by Mother Earth in our own farming and nurturing process, it is unlikely that the planted crops will prosper and be ready for harvesting in due time.

5. Thus, it is not the wealth per se that I am actually pursuing through property investing but a spiritual journey of caring and sharing myself and God's Love with my fellow Mankind, through this property investing and trying to learn how to harness the newly found wealth to do God's works and to give them away meaningfully as God will want it too, so as to help make this world a better world for all to live in.

6. I think this is also what you are also trying to achieve through your other ways of wealth creation. Commit them to the Lord in prayer and as long as He is with you, I am sure He will cause your projects to prosper too in due course.

7. Thank you.



God Bless,
Kenneth KOH

[alwayscurious]

I am listening to this at the moment on tape.

I find it interesting to note that many of the millionaires that he interviews have a strong religious faith and use prayer & seeking guidance to help them
be courageous and allay their fears.

Interesting.

[thefirstbruce]

I'd agree that if you want to do something big, that is ground or rule breaking, then you need more than ordinary determination and drive from deep within....the sort of drive that is impossible when one's conscience is split.

[rodimus]

“As human beings,
we need some of the greens,
that’s why god created money.” :p

Ok seriously, for me, as your spiritual understanding grows, the more happy and abundant you become. Having more supply of money, without making it something to lie or cheat for, and without any negativity about having it. Ie, without making it something you worship.
Guilt and concepts of sin attached to money is unnecessary. Money is just paper and metal coins, and we attach value to it. We do not say paper is evil or metal is evil, therefore those who say money is evil (sin) is not condemning the object, but their own subjective concepts of money.

Yet if you have lots of money without spirituality, you can feel really empty inside.

[Kennethkohsg]

“As human beings,
we need some of the greens,
that’s why god created money.” :p

Ok seriously, for me, as your spiritual understanding grows, the more happy and abundant you become. Having more supply of money, without making it something to lie or cheat for, and without any negativity about having it. Ie, without making it something you worship.
Guilt and concepts of sin attached to money is unnecessary. Money is just paper and metal coins, and we attach value to it. We do not say paper is evil or metal is evil, therefore those who say money is evil (sin) is not condemning the object, but their own subjective concepts of money.

Yet if you have lots of money without spirituality, you can feel really empty inside.
******************************************************
Dear Rodimus,

1. While in general, I agree with what you have posted to a large extent, I also wish to specifically point out for accuracy sake, that in the Bible, it is written that it is the LOVE for MONIES is the root of all evils (and not MONIES per se alone which you have correctly pointed out too in your post) .

2. To me, this clarification is important and I wish to further emphasise it here because I know that to some Christians, (including myself previously), we sometime "mis-read" the Bible and have wrongly presumed and generalise that " it is MONEY (per se) that is the root of all evils" and therefore "monies is bad", thereby developing a wrong Biblical concept of "Monies". Consequently, as you have ocrrectly pointed out, I did some time felt "guilty" in the past about having monies as a child as I came from a middle class family background,.

3. As I grow up in my own Christian faith and search the Bible myself and re-learn this truth about "Monies", I came to realise for myself that actually God wants Christians to prosper and to be rich and wealthy on their earthly lives, both spiritually and materially ( just as he has prospered Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Job and the Israelites when they are obedient unto Him in the past). Hoever, the materially rich Christians will have to continually bear in mind that their given material wealth actually belongs to God Himself and that they are mere stewards of God's monies, and to manage the givden monies undeer their stewardship wisely, to carry out God's works and do good deeds on this earth. The moments we forget that, and try to selfishly assume/exert our own human control of our own material wealth and allow our love for Monies to supercede our own love for God or/and use/hoard the given monies selfishly, we would have sinned against God, as it is written in the Bible. And soon we will start to realise that the given MONIES will start to leave us, by itself eventually.

4. On the other hand, it is interesting to observe that when the MONIES is properly managed and put into correct use to do good deeds and to serve others and make this world a better place to live for all, the entrusted MONIES will (inevitably) soon multiply itself and return manifolds to its rightful owners who have exercised good stewardship over it.

5. Having said this, however I am not saying that therefore all Christians should start to accumulate monies during their earthly lives as a form of godliness. Each of us has our own specific calling in life and not all of us are called to create/accumulate wealth for the Lord's sake. Ultimately, what truly counts and counts most to God, is our own attitude towards Him and how we value our own relationship with HIM, irrespective of whether we are materially rich or poor, despite our different social standing status, different races, different languages, different cultures etc.

6. You are definitely right that when a person have monies without spirituality, they do sometimes feel a big emptiness in their lives and that the richer they get, the more empty they find their own earthly lives to be until such times that they beign to realise their true life destiny and learn to share/give away part of wealth to do charity works or/and find new joys in sharing their wealth with the poor and the rest of the world, and subsequently to re-discover the true meaning of life for themselves. Others find that due to their increasingly emptiness in their own earthly lives as they get richer materially, they start to abandon/ignore/neglect their material wealth and start to search for the true meaning of life for themselves. Eventually, some of the these previously rich people, some time give away their wealth completely and begin to discover new happiness for themselves being an average "joe", being truly contented with their simple lives, embarking/pursueing their own spiritual journey, for they have discovered the new and true meaning in their own lives, having found the new un-describable joys which they have not experienced previously.

7. Such is a mystery of life... and the "elusiviness" of wealth as some people would have eventually discovered for themsevles.... some with new found joys for their new meaning in life, others with much life regrets for themselves, spending most of their earthly time chasing after the elusive wealth and its illusion of being rich in life, working very hard and spending their entire life-time accumulating the MONIE but only to see it taken away/lose it during their old age.

8. Thus, I believe, to each our own, and depending of our own life calling, we will eventually DO what we are called to do in life if we are to attain true happiness during our earthly days.

9. For your kind update, please.

10. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH.

[wish-ga]

Dear Thread
I don't think I can come around anymore. I am leaving my key under the mat at the front door. Switch out the lights when you are done.

wish-ga

[Rixter]

RIP, A-men.

[skater]

I agree! Let the thread die.

[Bargain Hunter]

I agree! Let the thread die.

Why... you know it will only rise again on the third day. :D

Cheers

Andrew

[Bantam Roosta]

The best way to keep a thread going is by putting in comments such as you have Wish-ga, Rixter & Skater.

If you want a thread to die don't reply to it. You will only create more debate and as you can see if you have followed this thread is that there has been more then enough debate on the issue and comments such as the ones you continue to put in have already been dealt with.

Stop reading the thread. You know what the subject/content is. If you are not interested, don't look. I happen to be interested and wish to read the comments people have.

BR

[Rixter]

The best way to keep a thread going is by putting in comments such as you have Wish-ga, Rixter & Skater.

If you want a thread to die don't reply to it.

BR

No its not! :eek: :rolleyes:

[markpatric]

******************************************************
Dear Rodimus,

1. While in general, I agree with what you have posted to a large extent, I also wish to specifically point out for accuracy sake, that in the Bible, it is written that it is the LOVE for MONIES is the root of all evils (and not MONIES per se alone which you have correctly pointed out too in your post) .

2. To me, this clarification is important and I wish to further emphasise it here because I know that to some Christians, (including myself previously), we sometime "mis-read" the Bible and have wrongly presumed and generalise that " it is MONEY (per se) that is the root of all evils" and therefore "monies is bad", thereby developing a wrong Biblical concept of "Monies". Consequently, as you have ocrrectly pointed out, I did some time felt "guilty" in the past about having monies as a child as I came from a middle class family background,.

3. As I grow up in my own Christian faith and search the Bible myself and re-learn this truth about "Monies", I came to realise for myself that actually God wants Christians to prosper and to be rich and wealthy on their earthly lives, both spiritually and materially ( just as he has prospered Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Job and the Israelites when they are obedient unto Him in the past). Hoever, the materially rich Christians will have to continually bear in mind that their given material wealth actually belongs to God Himself and that they are mere stewards of God's monies, and to manage the givden monies undeer their stewardship wisely, to carry out God's works and do good deeds on this earth. The moments we forget that, and try to selfishly assume/exert our own human control of our own material wealth and allow our love for Monies to supercede our own love for God or/and use/hoard the given monies selfishly, we would have sinned against God, as it is written in the Bible. And soon we will start to realise that the given MONIES will start to leave us, by itself eventually.

4. On the other hand, it is interesting to observe that when the MONIES is properly managed and put into correct use to do good deeds and to serve others and make this world a better place to live for all, the entrusted MONIES will (inevitably) soon multiply itself and return manifolds to its rightful owners who have exercised good stewardship over it.

5. Having said this, however I am not saying that therefore all Christians should start to accumulate monies during their earthly lives as a form of godliness. Each of us has our own specific calling in life and not all of us are called to create/accumulate wealth for the Lord's sake. Ultimately, what truly counts and counts most to God, is our own attitude towards Him and how we value our own relationship with HIM, irrespective of whether we are materially rich or poor, despite our different social standing status, different races, different languages, different cultures etc.

6. You are definitely right that when a person have monies without spirituality, they do sometimes feel a big emptiness in their lives and that the richer they get, the more empty they find their own earthly lives to be until such times that they beign to realise their true life destiny and learn to share/give away part of wealth to do charity works or/and find new joys in sharing their wealth with the poor and the rest of the world, and subsequently to re-discover the true meaning of life for themselves. Others find that due to their increasingly emptiness in their own earthly lives as they get richer materially, they start to abandon/ignore/neglect their material wealth and start to search for the true meaning of life for themselves. Eventually, some of the these previously rich people, some time give away their wealth completely and begin to discover new happiness for themselves being an average "joe", being truly contented with their simple lives, embarking/pursueing their own spiritual journey, for they have discovered the new and true meaning in their own lives, having found the new un-describable joys which they have not experienced previously.

7. Such is a mystery of life... and the "elusiviness" of wealth as some people would have eventually discovered for themsevles.... some with new found joys for their new meaning in life, others with much life regrets for themselves, spending most of their earthly time chasing after the elusive wealth and its illusion of being rich in life, working very hard and spending their entire life-time accumulating the MONIE but only to see it taken away/lose it during their old age.

8. Thus, I believe, to each our own, and depending of our own life calling, we will eventually DO what we are called to do in life if we are to attain true happiness during our earthly days.

9. For your kind update, please.

10. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH.

I guess this is the bible according to Benny Hinn!. :D
Somehow I don`t think a true christian would care too much about material possessions.
Why would you spend one cent on "lavish anything" when it can go toward helping someone in need.

I`m not buying that one!. :rolleyes:

[Kennethkohsg]

Somehow I don`t think a true christian would care too much about material possessions.
Why would you spend one cent on "lavish anything" when it can go toward helping someone in need
***************************************
Dear Markpatric,

1. What is your own understanding as to the proper Christian views with respect to the subject on "monies/wealth" then? And How does it relates to your own property investing then?

2. I would be further interested to know the kind of issues that you are having against Benny Hinn himself or/and his Christian Ministries or/and for that matter his preaching of the Christian Gospel? Are you suggesting that he is not a "true Christain" too?

3. To me, it is OK for you to disagree with my own personal views of Christianity as we all learn and grow at different pace and at different faith levels and as we all constitute to different parts to the Body of Christ and His Church Universal...HOWEVER, I think that it is quite a different thing for one to think this is how GOD can and should work and no other way!... and to start to introduce term such as "true Christianity"...Isn't that the very kind of attitude and thinking for some of "suicidal" terrorists too':-"that only my (version of the) Islam religion is true and count mosts " and that no other religions (and other versions of Islam) else matters!

4. By what you have posted, do you not think that in a certain way, you would also be LIMITING our GOD in how HE operates in our earthly lives as you would want to believe what is and what is not, that actually constitutes, "True Christianity" yourself?

5. I look forward to learning from you, please.

6. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

[Mark Laszczuk]

Kenny! Mate! Good to see you back. Where have you been hiding?

Mark

[Kennethkohsg]

Kenny! Mate! Good to see you back. Where have you been hiding?

Mark
************************************
Dear Mark,

1. All these while, I was actually in Australia, busy overseeing my own house construction in Perth, relocating my things/"office" from Scarborough Beach rented premises down to my Rockingham house, travelling around with my eldest daughter receeing/visiting some of the Australian colleges in Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra for her college education in 2006 as well as travelling around together with my whole family Melbourne-Cairns- Perth for a family holiday.

2. Frankly speaking, I am only recently back to Singapore since 17th Jan 2006 and will soon be flying out to Perth again on 2nd Feb 2006, to help settle my daughter down at Murdoch College and her homestay in Perth, as well as to oversee the settlement for another piece of vacant land purchase at Lot 2012, Anchorage Estate.

3. It is only when I'm back in Singapore whereby I have my own home PC and broadband service connnection where I can afford the much time required to quietly read and to contribute my own inputs to this forum, being slow in gathering my own thoughts together and to type them out onto the PC, when making my own contributions to the forum.

4. No, I am not "hiding" around... I'm busy/SAFELY travelling around in Australia and in Singapore openly.... and I am glad that the Australian Police has managed to arrest some of its own potential terrorists suspects so as to reduce the risks of seeing similar (suicidal) bombing incidents from being conducted on its own homeland grounds. Hopefully, Australians can also better learn from the Cronulla racial riots incident, to practise more social tolerance and to become a better multi-racial, multi-religious, multi-cultural nation as well as not to take their own freedom (of speech and self-exprerssion) for granted but to exercise it with due diligence and in a highly responsible manner.

5. Thank you.


Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

[geoffw]

visiting some of the Australian colleges in Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra And you didn't eve drop into Subway Belconnen? Your education was incomplete ;)

[markpatric]

***************************************
Dear Markpatric,

1. What is your own understanding as to the proper Christian views with respect to the subject on "monies/wealth" then? And How does it relates to your own property investing then?

2. I would be further interested to know the kind of issues that you are having against Benny Hinn himself or/and his Christian Ministries or/and for that matter his preaching of the Christian Gospel? Are you suggesting that he is not a "true Christain" too?

3. To me, it is OK for you to disagree with my own personal views of Christianity as we all learn and grow at different pace and at different faith levels and as we all constitute to different parts to the Body of Christ and His Church Universal...HOWEVER, I think that it is quite a different thing for one to think this is how GOD can and should work and no other way!... and to start to introduce term such as "true Christianity"...Isn't that the very kind of attitude and thinking for some of "suicidal" terrorists too':-"that only my (version of the) Islam religion is true and count mosts " and that no other religions (and other versions of Islam) else matters!

4. By what you have posted, do you not think that in a certain way, you would also be LIMITING our GOD in how HE operates in our earthly lives as you would want to believe what is and what is not, that actually constitutes, "True Christianity" yourself?

5. I look forward to learning from you, please.

6. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

Kenneth everyone knows where they are on the road to home, to a great place or whatever you want to call it, some care some don`t and while it is true that you must help yourself before you can help others, the fact that we continue to question our commitment is a good sign imo. ;)
Therefore it doesn`t matter what I say in jest or otherwise about Benny Hinn or others with a similar beliefs but it matters only really what they think about that ultimately.

Having said that we really need to judge others in order to guide the way to our own path, but I guess maybe we should keep it to ourselves, unless we want to point out issues which I suppose we think might help others.

[sue78]

If your a Christian, you pray about everything you do in life, and that definitely includes investments.

yes that's right.

We know a couple who don't budget at all but managed to come up with $50k for a house deposit only after working for just 2 years. They always give 10% income for tidings and, in addition, supported their pastor financially for 6 mths last year. They have callings to bless friends, people from church, guest speakers, donations. They have even given their last cent to tidings and had no money left for food.

I don't know how true it is...but they say they don't know where all the money in their bank come from. The girl is an accountant and she said that they have spent more than they earn yet they managed to come up with $50k cash deposit on the day of settlement. They were also blessed with a late model BMW.

They are all our best friends so we know everything they have been through. It's very inspiring to know that you can put your faith in the lord, bless others and know that god will look out for you. With my husband and I, we are not blessed often but when God bless us, I noticed that he does it abundantly.

[Chilli]

"but they say they don't know where all the money in their bank come from. "
If they spend more than they earn and still have money in the bank then probably they are spending someone else's money due to mistakes made by the bank ?? Certainly that would be my first thought if I was in that situation, not "the Lord is rewarding me coz I have been good"

imho if we do good deeds expec