Why the Navra Fund [Archive] - Somersoft Property Investment Forums

obiwan

07-01-2006, 11:52 AM

Hi,

I have been trying to do some due diligence by researching the property market (being new to PI) and trying to find suburbs with higher capital growth. Have brought a residex report and have been looking at properties within the report, and other areas. I am not having allot of success finding anything within my price range 220-250k. (I am sure others are finding them but not this black duck)

Anyway, I have been seeing allot of threads on shares of late and has got me thinking I might be better sticking my money into the stock market for a short time (12mths), to get a bit more money to increase my buying power whilst the property market is still flattish. (Any feed back welcome)

I have read allot about Steve Navra on this forum, and how great his managed funds are doing. Now this has got me thinking, about his and other managed funds.

Is the Navra fund so popular on this forum because he contributes to it and advertises his courses etc where as other managed funds are not?

Is it because he also invests in property which rings true to allot of others here?

Is it because one person recommends it, on this forum and everyone else jumps on the bandwagon??

How does his funds compare to other managed funds. I intend to do some research of my own, but thought I would put the question to others

Thanks in advance
Obi

The Y-man

07-01-2006, 11:59 AM

Steve's fund is an "active trading fund" as different from a "buy and hold" type fund.

My personal view is that there are benefits (and disadvantages) to be found in both, but primarily that one is a "income type" fund (navra) and the other is a captial gain type fund (buy and holds).

There are various tax implications as well as cashflow considerations when deciding on funds.

12 months is a relatively short time horizon for any managed fund available to retail clients. However, IF you are prepared for a scenario that your funds MAY be down at the end of the year (i.e. have that contingency plan in place!) then it may be worth considering.

Cheers,

The Y-man

The Y-man

07-01-2006, 12:02 PM

Is the Navra fund so popular on this forum because he contributes to it and advertises his courses etc where as other managed funds are not?

I simply liked his reasoning and explanation of how his fund worked - quite similar to my own share trading mentality (but a lot less riskier :) ) so I handed some money over.

Cheers,

The Y-man

Ebbie

07-01-2006, 12:36 PM

Have brought a residex report and have been looking at properties within the report, and other areas. I am not having allot of success finding anything within my price range 220-250k.
Obi, if you are looking to buy in NSW have you tried the "Future Growth (Budget)" Residex report? This report lists the top 50 lower cost (sub-$400K) suburbs from the Sydney, Wollongong, Blue Mountains, Central Coast and Newcastle areas. However, most of the suburbs to make the report are the outer suburbs of Sydney which might be out of your price range?

I've spoken to Residex and they are predicting NSW regional towns in general to show little to no growth over the next 5 years due to recent investor activity. This means you should be able to take your time to do your research with no urgency to enter the market.

In my opinion, unless you can afford to buy in a suburb with predicted capital growth, look at buying interstate, or find a property where you can add value rather than relying on capital growth, you may be better off investing in the Navra Fund to allow you to grow a larger deposit.

Keep in mind that although the Navra Fund has had very good returns, the minimum suggested investment term is 5 years.

agent007

07-01-2006, 05:10 PM

geoffw

07-01-2006, 09:57 PM

I have read allot about Steve Navra on this forum, and how great his managed funds are doing. Now this has got me thinking, about his and other managed funds.

Is the Navra fund so popular on this forum because he contributes to it and advertises his courses etc where as other managed funds are not?

Is it because he also invests in property which rings true to allot of others here?

Is it because one person recommends it, on this forum and everyone else jumps on the bandwagon?? obiwan

Probably all of these reasons are valid.

One particular feature which appealed to me was that there is no fee if the fund does not outperform the ASX200. I, like many, had seen our funds drop in value when the share market slumped- and even if the fund dropped further than the share index, the managers still took their percentage cut.

I have funds with Navra as well as with Freeman Fox (Peter Spann's group)- Steve and Peter have both been very valuable contributors to the forum, so that has influenced me. Credibility is important, and both of these people, by what they have said in the forum and elsewhere, have added a lot to their credibility.

bens

08-01-2006, 01:45 AM

How would I go about purchasing units in the Navra Fund - do you have to use a broker ?

Cheers,

Bens

thefirstbruce

08-01-2006, 02:36 AM

Obviously, Steve has endeared himself here due to his many postings, and several easy to understand investing tips. I would summarize them as:

- balance your investing between property, stocks, and cash, in a manner that allows you to maximally leverage, depending on your risk profile.

- use a cash bond to help maximize after tax cash flows to further leverage.

- use 'rental reality' to help choose when to buy and not to buy property

- invest in his fund with its unique use of dollar cost trading. Steve has said a lot about this concept, though much remains a mystery. However, the mechanics behind DCT have been around for a long time, and there is a good treatment of it by Robert Lichello called automatic investment management.
http://www.aim-users.com/

geoffw

08-01-2006, 09:03 AM

How would I go about purchasing units in the Navra Fund - do you have to use a broker ?No, you can invest directly. You do need the Product Disclosure Statement, available on the web.

See the Navra Invest site (http://www.navrainvest.com.au/index.asp?content=to_invest)

DaleGG

08-01-2006, 09:54 AM

Hi

May I also suggest that the using a managed fund (any managed fund) is a lazy way of investing? Even if it is effective sometimes....

Instead, I would personally prefer to see people learn the techniques involved in trading shares for themselves so that they actively control their investments instead of being passive.

Just an alternate view.....

Dale

geoffw

08-01-2006, 10:01 AM

May I also suggest that the using a managed fund (any managed fund) is a lazy way of investing? Even if it is effective sometimes....

Instead, I would personally prefer to see people learn the techniques involved in trading shares for themselves so that they actively control their investments instead of being passive.Dale

My problem with the active investing approach was that my pool was too small to have any diversification, which put a much higher risk, having a very small exposure. I had about $30K invested for 2 years- I don't like to have less than $10K for any single share. I made a small profit on some trades- and then lost out by having NAB for 2 years, then selling for the price I bought. In contrast my Navra fund has performed extremely well.

Andrew_A

08-01-2006, 10:12 AM

I agree completely Dale.

An interesting view point from a billionaire. The Stock Market is for Suckers! (http://www.blogmaverick.com/entry/1234000173073470/)

MichaelW

08-01-2006, 10:13 AM

Obiwan,

My experience has been similar to Geoff's last post. I bought some direct shares in small parcels and didn't make too much profit and lost some too. I bought another managed fund and held it for years losing money along the way. Then I read about the Navra fund and thier low fee structure and strong track record so decided to get in. Because they trade Aussie blue chips I wasn't afraid to leverage strongly into the fund too which has increased my profits.

In the first quarter that I've been in the fund (since October 14 2005) I've returned 6.5% or $35K on my investment. My borrowing costs (as its all borrowed) are 7.1% pa so I only need a tiny bit more profit and my whole 12 month holding costs are covered and the rest is clear profit.

I'm extremely happy with the Navra fund, but there certainly are others out there that have a strong performance record too. It depends what you're looking for in your fund, but if you need an income fund then you can do a lot worse than going for Navra.

My strategy is the same as yours broadly speaking. I''ve got all my money in shares at the moment and am using the extra income from them to help pay down my PPOR quicker. I should own it outright within two years. I'll then look to buy some IPs if the market shows some signs of life. Otherwise, I'll just capitalise my growth in my shares and keep building my wealth through shares until the time is right to buy property. Shares are certainly my preferred asset category at the moment and will probably remain so for the next 3-4 years if my crystal ball is still working...

Cheers,
Michael.

thefirstbruce

08-01-2006, 10:44 AM

I am not a Steve Navra groupie, but listen to what he says, as I think he has a much more balanced approach to investment advice, then 97% of the financial consultant industry. And I am not in his fund. I believe it doesn't do any better then the ASX 200, and that how well you do is highly dependent on when you enter the fund, as indicated by the attached performance graph.

I think there are a lot of people out there who don't have either the time, energy, or mathematical mind to come to terms with understanding the share market and economic influences on it. though I'd agree some make no effort at all, while I also accept some don't have the acumen for it.

It is sad in this ever more complicated world, that more and more personal time and energy resources have to be committed to understanding/managing money matters (tax, super, investment) and taken away from spiritual/emotional/physical health maintenance, acts of social responsibility, and nurturing of children.

obiwan

08-01-2006, 11:09 AM

Hi again,

Thanks to everyone and there inputs. It is what I like about this site, everyone is on the same path but taking different roads to get there!

There are few interesting replies out there, the one Ebbie wrote about not to hurry about getting into the property market now as Residex say is not the best time. Does anyone else have an opinion on this. I am sure other people are buying at the moment??

And it seems that one of the major attractions to the Navra fund is you don't have to pay management fees if it doesn't out perform the ASX200. But if you take that into consideration and all other returns is it still a better option than say at BT fund??

perky29

08-01-2006, 11:42 AM

I have funds in the Navra fund.
I have been pretty happy with the returns in last 12 months - but the last 3 months have been disappointing....however.....
This could actually be a good time to invest in it !! Reason is thus - they have bought when the market went down - and the 20 stocks they actually invest in have underperformed the asx200 in that 3 months. So being contrary to this means these stocks may actually "catch up" to the rest of the market over the next 6 months (but there is also a risk that some of these 20 stocks may actually continue to underperform as some of these stocks have been on a downward trend - try charting BSL for eg and you will see what I mean , I have lost a bit of paper money myself on that one :rolleyes: ).
However over the long term I have great faith in Navrainvest.

Also check with Wealthtrac through your financial adviser - ask them to send out their latest returns booklet. http://www.wealthtrac.com.au/
One of the better performing funds (for example) has been UBS Property Sec fund - with around 19% average over the last 5 years...but only half of that is income and the other half is cap growth - so if you were looking at an "income fund" then this may not appeal......although in the last 12 months ending 31/10 they have returned 16% - with 12% of that as income so they may be changing the way they return to the fund unit holders. Of course that does not guarantee future performance !!

geoffw

08-01-2006, 12:05 PM

There are few interesting replies out there, the one Ebbie wrote about not to hurry about getting into the property market now as Residex say is not the best time. Does anyone else have an opinion on this. I am sure other people are buying at the moment??I haven't been buying property for some time now. I got into the business as I wasn't too confident about the short term future of the property market.

It's like drugs. People who got into the ride when it was going wild got a huge rush. Now that the excitement isn't there anymore, there's many who are still addicted.

Peter Spann has been saying for some time that it's the wrong time of the cycle to be getting into the property market (except for a few exceptions, like land banking). The last time I heard him speak (3 months ago) he was still strongly suggesting shares.

thefirstbruce

08-01-2006, 12:24 PM

I'm keeping a close eye on property where I might get neutral or better gearing, in addition to doing a quick value add.

But my money is in cash, my business growth, and stocks, and stocks are looking like they might keep outperforming property this year. If the US fed go soft on rate rises, then I think that will counter any end of property boom downturn they have over there. And that should stop China from crashing this year, which will help our resources. I'd suggest you read up on materials and energy sectors.

perky29

08-01-2006, 12:52 PM

In the last two months I have read several reports saying that the US sharemarket will outperform Australia's.
What do you guys think of this?

willair

08-01-2006, 12:53 PM

I have to agree with Dale,i just wonder even though last years results
on the ASX are good,they may be very difficult to repeat this year
in several areas,look at it in this simple way,corporate disasters
are always easy to spot with the benefit of hindsight,Indenifying
them in advance is much tougher........i do watch the way the
Narva system trades and in my opinion and mine only some of those
stocks do carry more than the average risk.........
good luck
willair

Todd

08-01-2006, 01:07 PM

It seems that a lot of people believe that the Navra fund is good for income. Does anyone have any suggestions on a fund thats good for Growth rather than income?

DaleGG

08-01-2006, 01:18 PM

Hiya Geoff

Yes, success can be mixed in the short term as we each learn about the markets .... and ourselves....

However, it is the longer term success from this education that will bring greater rewards - finacially and emotionally - than merely passively investing in a managed fund.

Having said this, I do understand and respect that sometimes some people just want results and in this case,

feeding a man fish is better than
teaching a man how to fish

Each to their own, I guess....
Have fun

Dale

Dale

My problem with the active investing approach was that my pool was too small to have any diversification, which put a much higher risk, having a very small exposure. I had about $30K invested for 2 years- I don't like to have less than $10K for any single share. I made a small profit on some trades- and then lost out by having NAB for 2 years, then selling for the price I bought. In contrast my Navra fund has performed extremely well.

Patosan

08-01-2006, 01:54 PM

It is sad in this ever more complicated world, that more and more personal time and energy resources have to be committed to understanding/managing money matters (tax, super, investment) and taken away from spiritual/emotional/physical health maintenance, acts of social responsibility, and nurturing of children.
Oh too true !

This is a property investment forum for wealth creation. The fact that we are here means that we ARE spending more time than others away from social and family activities.

I like many was attracted here after reading a Jan Somers book where the basic principle is that anyone can become wealthy without huge IQ, investment study or large parcels for stock investment. It is supposed to be SIMPLE. This strategy does indeed work but of course we all would like to fast track things or magnify our wealth ... and why not indeed, me included. That is why we came here.

It is however sobering to remember the quote above, which is similar to that at the end of Mark Cuban's blog, linked to early in this thread. Self education in the stock market should be rewarding ... but at a cost, if nothing else time. Thus funds are not only for lazy people but for those who wish to allocate time elsewhere. I have in the past held shares privately and in funds, am aware of the benefits of both and in the future would probably selectively pick funds purely for the time aspect.

Cheeks

08-01-2006, 02:02 PM

I invest in the Navra fund. At the moment I reinvest the funds but shortly I will be using some of the distributions to lower my property debt.

DaleGG - I find it easier to invest in a fund because my property portfolio absorbs a lot of my time (I'm also trying to build a house). I actual like the passive aspect whilst still holding some money in shares. I think if I was active in shares and property whilst trying to hold down a day job I wouldn't perform as well as I wanted at any of them. At the moment I sacrifice some control by using the fund but my overall plan is still well under my control.

I do fish (property) but I also like to buy it from the Fish & Chip shop (shares) some times.

geoffw

08-01-2006, 02:13 PM

My business- my biggest investment- takes up most of my available time. I prefer to spend my time looking after my $700K investment than after my $30K super fund.

I'm very inclined to go even more passive. I have a SMSF which manages my money. That costs me a lot in time and audit fees each year. If I put it back into an approved fund and closed the SMSF I believe I would get a much better ROI on my time.

When I'm able to hand over some of the running of the business to somebody else, I may be able to spend time elsewhere.

GreatPig

08-01-2006, 07:29 PM

Dale,

success can be mixed in the short term as we each learn about the markets .... and ourselves....

However, it is the longer term success from this education that will bring greater rewards - finacially and emotionally - than merely passively investing in a managed fund.
I think so as well, which is why I'm spending the time (quite a lot actually) learning to invest and trade the market myself. Some of my investments are listed unit trusts, but I treat them much the same as any other share investment and actively monitor them rather than treat them as passive investments.

I only started learning about the share market a bit over 12 months ago, and now my investment portfolio only takes a few minutes a day to monitor and for this current financial year is showing an annualised capital gain (ie. excluding dividends) of over 20% pa. That may not be outstanding, but I'm happy with it this early in my career, and it's probably better than some of the managed funds.

Trading, on the other hand, is taking a lot more time and effort to learn and my results to date have been far more volatile. Still, I'm not unhappy so far, and am reasonably confident that with more time and refinement of my methodology, I'll be able to outperform my investment returns.

Plus it's fun. Who said you shouldn't mix business and pleasure? :D

Cheers,
GP

Ebbie

08-01-2006, 08:35 PM

There are few interesting replies out there, the one Ebbie wrote about not to hurry about getting into the property market now as Residex say is not the best time. Does anyone else have an opinion on this. I am sure other people are buying at the moment??

Personally I will still be buying my next IP as soon as I can afford to because there are bargains around at this stage of the cycle (motivated vendors), and I would much prefer to be out looking for an IP in a buyers market than during a boom. All I'm suggesting is that if prices (in NSW) are expected to plateau for the next 5 years then perhaps you could invest your money elsewhere and still have time to get into the property market before the next boom.

I have units in the Navra Fund and I'm very happy with the performance, especially when I compare it to the poor results I've had from managed funds in the past. I would like to let it compound and re-invest the Navra distributions but I'm using the cashflow to help fund my negative geared properties instead. My aim of investing in the Navra Fund is to offset the cashflow loss from my IPs and turn the entire portfolio from negative to neutral cashflow.

obiwan

08-01-2006, 08:41 PM

Thanks Ebbie for reclarifing my comment. Sounds like a good strategy

Bill.L

09-01-2006, 01:13 AM

Hi all,

I know I have been asked not to comment on "Navra" type investments, but I cannot let this go.

As a basic premise, I feel that the "Navra" approach, combining property and shares is better than most financial advisers will give. I just don't happen to agree with particular aspects of the approach.

As for people putting money in funds(any funds) now, or stating how good any fund has been over the last 2 1/2 years, then good luck.

Check how the fund performed during the last downturn in the stockmarket.
Check how your reaction will be if the market has a 25-30% tumble over a year or two, and your fund performs worse than this.
If you think it cannot happen, look at history.
If you think a fund will give you "safety" against a downturn (or someone else to blame for the loss), then think again.

If you educate yourself, and invest accordingly, then you are solely responsible.

If you expect to get ongoing gain without effort, then you are only kidding yourself, and the bad habits the stockmarket teaches will come back to haunt you.

bye

geoffw

09-01-2006, 01:46 AM

Bill

For myself, I'm aware that I'm taking a gamble in putting money into a share fund now.

And I'm very well aware that I can't predict the future based on the past.

I'm taking a calculated risk. I'm risking some of my SMSF based on my assessment of the product, and based on my assessment of the person selling the product. I'm happy with the action I've taken ("invest") based on my assessment.

But then, my SMSF is not my principal retirement strategy. Based on the amount of money, it's "toy" money. My properties will provide for my retirement.

But there are cycles which have occurred in the past, and indicators which are happening now.

My own main gamble is to put into a business now- and to work like hell to get it up and going.

That's where I'm putting the dollars. The cents are going into funds (Steve's + one other).

DaleGG

09-01-2006, 08:12 AM

Hey GP

Congrats! That news is wonderful and inspiring to all of us, so, thank you for sharing your results and success.

I hope that your continued success brings you pleasure.
From a fellow hedonist....

Dale

I think so as well, which is why I'm spending the time (quite a lot actually) learning to invest and trade the market myself. Some of my investments are listed unit trusts, but I treat them much the same as any other share investment and actively monitor them rather than treat them as passive investments.

I only started learning about the share market a bit over 12 months ago, and now my investment portfolio only takes a few minutes a day to monitor and for this current financial year is showing an annualised capital gain (ie. excluding dividends) of over 20% pa. That may not be outstanding, but I'm happy with it this early in my career, and it's probably better than some of the managed funds.

Trading, on the other hand, is taking a lot more time and effort to learn and my results to date have been far more volatile. Still, I'm not unhappy so far, and am reasonably confident that with more time and refinement of my methodology, I'll be able to outperform my investment returns.

Plus it's fun. Who said you shouldn't mix business and pleasure? :D

Cheers,
GP

Sultan of Swing

09-01-2006, 08:59 AM

redwing

09-01-2006, 09:03 AM

Plus it's fun. Who said you shouldn't mix business and pleasure? :D

Cheers,
GP

My Wife... :confused:

:)

Actually I had fun trading last year prior to buying the last IP and had some good results with ETR, REA, MGX,PCG, ZFX made a bad choice on CMQ but sold out when it bounced.

Learnt how to set stop-losses, profit stops and use triggers to my advantage, still spend some time on Aussiestockforums under another more apt name and can honestly say i think GP is a pretty smart guy when it comes to the market as well

If I get into shares this year though I'm looking more for Income and a buy and hold portfolio rather than a trading one (more ups n downs)..not sure where to start and have downloaded Navras material to review

REDWING

TomL

09-01-2006, 10:51 AM

I started my SMSF about a year ago and wow!! What a ride it’s been. All my preconceived ideas of how good I was at picking shares and investing in them went out the window real quick!!

I made 2 or 3 mistakes early on and am still paying for them I guess and after a year am just breaking even. :eek:

Looking at the positives, I’ve learned a lot.

If I had made big gains right away I may have become even more bigheaded then I already was and made some more serious mistakes later :rolleyes: . By making them early on it made me dig deep, grit my teeth and learn more.

It also taught me a lot about myself and what makes me tick. I’m not as big of a risk taker as I thought I was. I like to sleep at night.

Early on I was trying to learn technical analysis (TA) but have realised its not for me. I think I’d prefer to delve deeper into each individual company and look at them as what they really are, a business, not just a share. So now I need to learn how to read the company reports or work out which bits to look out for. I’ve decided I’m more of a ‘value investor’ and since realising this and buying stocks using this method, I’ve had greater success and more sleep at night.

I still use TA to help me get an idea of when to buy and sell though and I love reading candle stick charts. I believe they tell you a lot.

All up, I love it. As a DIY sorta guy and as Dale alluded to, it’s the learning to fish and then catching them that I’m enjoying and getting some satisfaction out of. :)

Ummm ... thats great, you've figured out your setup and entries, but what about the more important aspects of trading (and slightly less sexy things to talk about) like... position sizing, expectancy, drawdown%, risk management etc etc.

I guess what i'm saying is that when you invest in a fund, you are assuming that the fund manager has the smarts to understand and develop a proper trading strategy, they have the systems in place to FOLLOW it (no emotions), and they have the $$ to back it up and buy deep when they have the opportunities.

These are things that kill off the small investors. These I think are the things that you need to be confident about when venturing out on your own vs dumping your hard earned in a fund.

So Obi ..

When evaluating a fund, look at these sorta things - not their %returns. Dont just jump on a bandwagon, but first understand the rules of the game - then you can properly evaluate the players.

PS I agree with Bill re seeing how a fund fares through a major downturn ... see how they reacted DURING and 6, and 12 mths AFTER. If they outperform the 'benchmark indexes' then great, otherwise look deeper.

T.

Sultan of Swing

09-01-2006, 11:24 AM

Ummm ... thats great, you've figured out your setup and entries, but what about the more important aspects of trading (and slightly less sexy things to talk about) like... position sizing, expectancy, drawdown%, risk management etc etc.

Hi Tom

Yep, position sizing was one of my mistakes. I sort of bet it all on a favourite and put it on the nose, so to speak. And you guessed it, it came in third. I needed a bit each way. The difference of course is, in a horse race, when it's over, it's over, with shares, they may lose some value but you usually have a large proportion of the value still there.

I've since learned a lot about plosition sizing since then and set myself some 'rules'. Some of these I got out of Loiuse Bedford's 'Trading Game' book on TA. Although the book is on TA, it has a lot of relevence to all aspects of shares and very easy to read.

To balance her strategies I've recently bought Benjamin Graham's 'The Intelligent Investor' as endorsed by Warren Buffett. I still have a wee little way to go to catch and match Buffett's wealth. But hey, it's playing the game that counts, right?? :p

My mind set is that I'll still make the majority of my future wealth through property investment although, who knows?

Thanks for your comments

The Y-man

09-01-2006, 11:30 AM

............over 20% pa. That may not be outstanding..........

Cheers,
GP

Over 20%pa not outstanding? Wow, you must have high expectations.... :)

Cheers,

The Y-man

see_change

09-01-2006, 11:49 AM

I started my SMSF about a year ago and wow!! What a ride it’s been. All my preconceived ideas of how good I was at picking shares and investing in them went out the window real quick!!

I made 2 or 3 mistakes early on and am still paying for them I guess and after a year am just breaking even. :eek:

Looking at the positives, I’ve learned a lot.

If I had made big gains right away I may have become even more bigheaded then I already was and made some more serious mistakes later :rolleyes: . By making them early on it made me dig deep, grit my teeth and learn more.

It also taught me a lot about myself and what makes me tick. I’m not as big of a risk taker as I thought I was. I like to sleep at night.

Early on I was trying to learn technical analysis (TA) but have realised its not for me. I think I’d prefer to delve deeper into each individual company and look at them as what they really are, a business, not just a share. So now I need to learn how to read the company reports or work out which bits to look out for. I’ve decided I’m more of a ‘value investor’ and since realising this and buying stocks using this method, I’ve had greater success and more sleep at night.

I still use TA to help me get an idea of when to buy and sell though and I love reading candle stick charts. I believe they tell you a lot.

All up, I love it. As a DIY sorta guy and as Dale alluded to, it’s the learning to fish and then catching them that I’m enjoying and getting some satisfaction out of. :)

Sounds a bit like me , though my underlying problem was picking shares with too much volitility. Also Dec 2004 was not a good time to start a trend following system

I'm minimising the time involved by trading on a weekly basis , but too many of the shares I traded initially were subject to speculation with the day traders , OEX , FMG ( nothing like negotiations being carried out via the media to cause a bit of volitility) . Shares that go up quickly can come down quickly....

My turnover of shares is less now with most weeks passing without a sell or buy.

I'm applying a fundamental review to shares that come up under my original systems and I've set up a new system which only trades shares on the ASX 200 and since making those changes I'm moving forwards steadily. The current portfolio of shares are up over 10 % in the last three months with CSR and RCR both up 25 %

See Change

GreatPig

09-01-2006, 12:36 PM

Over 20%pa not outstanding? Wow, you must have high expectations.... :)
Yep. I don't believe in aspiring to mediocrity. :)

I look at it this way: whenever I'm seriously trying to learn something, whether it be a sport, a musical instrument, or whatever, I study the people who I think are the best at it and aim for what they can do. While in many cases I know I'll never get there (eg. because I simply can't dedicate my life to it like say some musicians have), at least it shows me what's possible, and I get a feel for what's good and what's not.

With shares I'm learning technical analysis, so look at what people like Daryl Guppy do. He has a weekly newsletter which I subscribe to, and in that newletter he runs a demo portfolio of about $100K, detailing selection, entry, and exit criteria as it goes along. I think he's been doing that for about 9 years now, and last I looked his average return over all that time was somewhere in the range of 70-80% pa. From memory, I think his worst year was about 45% pa, his best around 110% pa. He does use warrants for shorting though, which I'm don't, so I can't expect to profit during the corrections like he does.

But there's the bar, now I just have to practise jumping... :D

Cheers,
GP

geoffw

09-01-2006, 12:40 PM

But there's the bar, now I just have to practise jumping... :DWhen I'm at the bar, I practice shouting.

Sultan of Swing

09-01-2006, 12:47 PM

When I'm at the bar, I practice shouting.

Cool!! I'm going to Queanbeyan and I'll let you practice all you want!! :D

see_change

09-01-2006, 12:56 PM

With shares I'm learning technical analysis, so look at what people like Daryl Guppy do. He has a weekly newsletter which I subscribe to, and in that newletter he runs a demo portfolio of about $100K, detailing selection, entry, and exit criteria as it goes along. I think he's been doing that for about 9 years now, and last I looked his average return over all that time was somewhere in the range of 70-80% pa. From memory, I think his worst year was about 45% pa, his best around 110% pa. He does use warrants for shorting though, which I'm don't, so I can't expect to profit during the corrections like he does.

But there's the bar, now I just have to practise jumping... :D

Cheers,
GP

Remember that Daryl is a full time trader . Is that what you want to be ?

See Change

GreatPig

09-01-2006, 02:25 PM

Remember that Daryl is a full time trader . Is that what you want to be ?
Depends what you mean by "full time".

I would like to be able to live off it as my main source of income, but not by spending 40+ hours a week in front of a screen.

While he's a full-time trader, the time spent selecting stocks for the demo portfolio wouldn't be that much, and once selected, almost no time would be required to manage them as he has pretty strict stop/loss conditions in place. The warrant trades do seem to require more screen time, as they're often done in the same day or over just a few days and the timing is more critical, but most of the long share positions seem to just require a bit of searching based on his selection criteria and then updating and monitoring the stop-losses. With a $100K portfolio and typically buying about $20K per position, there aren't many stocks to monitor.

Even with my trading portfolio now, I don't spend a great deal of time making trading decisions and searching through stocks. Most of my time is spent learning trading in general, reading books and newsletters, reading and participating in forums, and continuing to test and refine the trading system I'm using - plus at times testing alternate ones to see if I can find something that works better. Once I have my system working acceptably, I won't need to spend so much time doing that either.

And ultimately I don't need to make anthing like the sorts of returns he's making to be able to live off the proceeds. I have enough capital to work with that even 10%-20% would allow me to survive comfortably, and see me through periods where market conditions won't let me make a profit (unless they extend over a number of years, in which case I could probably survive off just the bank interest during those times).

Of course it's still possible to envisage scenarios were I could lose a lot of money, perhaps due to '87 style crashes, a number of companies going into liquidation while I'm holding them, perhaps even my bank going belly up with a lot of my funds, but I'd never get anywhere if I worried about that sort of thing all the time. Instead I follow Johnny Howard's advice: be alert, not alarmed :D.

Cheers,
GP

TJamesX

09-01-2006, 03:38 PM

I think managed funds are a very good method of passive investment in the sharemarket. But in the end you are basically paying someone to 'try' and beat the index - just make sure you're not paying them too much. In that sense I like the 'only pay on outperformance' method.

One semi-passive way to invest in the sharemarket that everybody seems to forget is Listed Investment Companies (LIC's). They are companies that are listed on the stockmarket and invest in shares. They are passive in the sense that they tend to have a diversified portfolio of shares, and you rely on managements capability to invest, but they are active in the sense that you decide when to buy in/out of the company. Their holdings are transparent and they frequently trade at a discount to their assets.

LIC's are a great way to dip your toes into the market if you don't know a lot about shares, you can see which investments they hold. I started in the market with Argo Invetments (ARG) - just to learn a few things. I've since moved onto other companies 'in search of return'. I've been in the market about 15 months, originally bought ARG at 4.88 in Aug 04, currently trading at 6.64!!! 36% return (not including fully franked divs of about 4%). My actual portfolio return about 32% in this time - so I would have been better off with it all in ARG, which is a reasonably low risk divesified company.

With LIC's you need to look at their Management Expense Ratio, make sure it's low. Make sure the management are experienced and they have a track record (been in the market a while). A couple;

(ARG) Argo Investments http://www.argoinvestments.com.au/
(MLT) Milton Capital http://www.milton.com.au/

Ebbie

09-01-2006, 07:09 PM

Check how the fund performed during the last downturn in the stockmarket.
Check how your reaction will be if the market has a 25-30% tumble over a year or two, and your fund performs worse than this.

he has pretty strict stop/loss conditions in place.
Does anyone who invests in the Navra Fund have a stop/loss condition in place to get out of the fund if/when the unit price (or distributions) take a large 'tumble'? If so is this a manual decision to sell or is it possible to somehow set up an automatic stop/loss? Would anyone rather hold on through a crash and stay in the fund patiently waiting for the unit price to improve?

vandalic

09-01-2006, 07:51 PM

The Intelligent Investor throws you into the deep end a bit with regards to value investing. To obtain a fundamental understanding of Warren Buffett's methods I would read (in this order):

- Warren Buffett Wealth by Robert P. Miles
- The New Buffettology by Mary Buffett and David Clark
- Value Investing from Graham to Buffett and Beyond by Greenwald, Kahn, Sonkin and van Biema
- Security Analysis by Graham and Dodd

Warren Buffett combined and refined the qualitative and quantitative due diligence of Graham and Dodd, so concentrate on Warren Buffett, as he joined the best aspects of both of the value investors techniques.

Good luck :)

Hi Tom

Yep, position sizing was one of my mistakes. I sort of bet it all on a favourite and put it on the nose, so to speak. And you guessed it, it came in third. I needed a bit each way. The difference of course is, in a horse race, when it's over, it's over, with shares, they may lose some value but you usually have a large proportion of the value still there.

I've since learned a lot about plosition sizing since then and set myself some 'rules'. Some of these I got out of Loiuse Bedford's 'Trading Game' book on TA. Although the book is on TA, it has a lot of relevence to all aspects of shares and very easy to read.

To balance her strategies I've recently bought Benjamin Graham's 'The Intelligent Investor' as endorsed by Warren Buffett. I still have a wee little way to go to catch and match Buffett's wealth. But hey, it's playing the game that counts, right?? :p

My mind set is that I'll still make the majority of my future wealth through property investment although, who knows?

Thanks for your comments

Mark Laszczuk

09-01-2006, 08:08 PM

Would anyone rather hold on through a crash and stay in the fund patiently waiting for the unit price to improve?

Ebbie,

I'd be buying more units. Some of the share people on here would (and are, no doubt) tutt tutting and thinking 'stupid noob' but I don't care. I've seen first hand what the Navra fund is capable of and I'm comfortable with the idea that it will recover in good time.

Mark.

vandalic

09-01-2006, 08:17 PM

I totally agree with Mark.

If you are holding solid investments and the underlying companies remain strong, in down times buy buy buy!. Comparatively, what do people do when retail stores such as Myers have sales? run away scared that the quality of that same shirt has changed because it is now 40% off? or buy two ;)

This post does not constitute financial advice, but merely my experience and opinion :)

Ebbie

09-01-2006, 08:30 PM

Ebbie,

I'd be buying more units. Some of the share people on here would (and are, no doubt) tutt tutting and thinking 'stupid noob' but I don't care. I've seen first hand what the Navra fund is capable of and I'm comfortable with the idea that it will recover in good time.

Mark.
Hi Mark,

I'd probably hold onto the units through the downward phase of the share market cycle with the view of a recovery. Besides, isn't the idea behind DCT (as opposed to a simple buy and hold managed fund) that distributions will continue as the daily share prices fluctuate regardless of whether the sharemarket is in an upward, sideways or downward swing? A short term decrease in unit value won't worry me too much, as long as the distributions continue to cover my interest costs.

Mark Laszczuk

09-01-2006, 10:43 PM

Ebbie,

True, but you also must keep in mind that by holding onto (and indeed, purchasing more units) also carries the risk that the fund/shares/whatever won't go back up again or may not do for a long time. Personally, while I have lots of confidence in Navra (for my own personal reasons), I always keep the idea in the back of my mind that something might - and most likely will - happen. When that is, who knows? But it's part of my risk management just to keep that in mind. Incidentally, trading shares is something that I am seriously considering looking into at some stage in the near future.

Mark.

obiwan

10-01-2006, 08:12 AM

Thanks again to everybody for there replies.

I didn't think the responses would still be coming so thick and fast!

But you're not making my decision making any easier ha ha.

Can anyone post or PM a link to a stockmarket forum. If the people on there are as half as generous with passing information then I think I am on the road to financial success.
Or for that matter anything else that might be of benefit. Thanks to TJamesX for the insight of LIC's

Cheers Obi

MichaelW

10-01-2006, 08:38 AM

Ebbie,

I have a sizeable Navra holding, and don't have any stop loss mechanism in place with it. I rely on the underlying strength of the shares traded in that fund to limit any potential permanent wealth erosion. Emphasis on "permanent" there as the fundamental approach of the fund is to trade through any temporary corrections recognising the strength of the companies traded.

Case in point: the market dropped more than 5% in October (as it often does). My response was to buy in big into Navra. I put $600K in on 14/10 when the ASX200 was at 4410. Today its at 4830. That's almost a 10% improvement over the last 3 months. My Navra funds have gone up 6.5% over that period so have under-performed the index. Steve reckons there's a lot of unrealised potential in the fund as he releases value now that its back above its previous high so I might yet get a lot more performance out of it.

Either way, the recovery happened and I'm up $40K in a quarter.

I like my strategy and will keep plodding away, but for now Navra are the cornerstone of that strategy. In a few years time it will probably be property again...

PS Obiwan, check this mob out:

http://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/

Cheers,
Michael.

Mark_B

10-01-2006, 08:48 AM

May I also suggest that the using a managed fund (any managed fund) is a lazy way of investing? Even if it is effective sometimes....

Instead, I would personally prefer to see people learn the techniques involved in trading shares for themselves so that they actively control their investments instead of being passive.

Just an alternate view.....

Just wanted to echo Dale's comments (I've made similiar ones myself).

/me cracks his knuckles

<rant mode on>

I am getting a bit sick of all this Navra fund b/s.

Imho if you want to join the Navra clones / puppets / disciples (strike out as appropriate depending on your level of brainwashing) then <expletive deleted> off to his forum.

Mods what's going on here?

One of the reasons this this forum is so great is that it is impartial and not plastered with advertising, yet with the amount of Navra related threads here this place looks little better than an infomercial.

Why is discussion of his products and services tolerated so far above all others?

<rant mode off>

Happy New Year to you all too.

Mark :)

see_change

10-01-2006, 09:07 AM

Case in point: the market dropped more than 5% in October (as it often does). My response was to buy in big into Navra. I put $600K in on 14/10 when the ASX200 was at 4410. Today its at 4830. That's almost a 10% improvement over the last 3 months. My Navra funds have gone up 6.5% over that period so have under-performed the index. Steve reckons there's a lot of unrealised potential in the fund as he releases value now that its back above its previous high so I might yet get a lot more performance out of it.

Either way, the recovery happened and I'm up $40K in a quarter.

I like my strategy and will keep plodding away, but for now Navra are the cornerstone of that strategy. In a few years time it will probably be property again...

PS Obiwan, check this mob out:

http://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/

Cheers,
Michael.

So if you'd bought an index fund you'd be 60 K up , so compared with the index your 20 K down. So that's outperforming the index ??

Isn't that what Steve aim's to do ? :confused:

See Change

keithj

10-01-2006, 09:41 AM

I am getting a bit sick of all this Navra fund b/s.

Imho if you want to join the Navra clones / puppets / disciples (strike out as appropriate depending on your level of brainwashing) then <expletive deleted> off to his forum.hear hear.

A problem is that to post on the Navra forum requires payment & posters can hardly expect an unbiased response from the disciples.

OTOH, these threads often contain more sensible suggestions, such as do your own research & don't let a charismatic guru to convince you they can beat the index consistently.

Why is discussion of his products and services tolerated so far above all others?One possible reason is that the admin of this site is in business with Navra.

Mark Laszczuk

10-01-2006, 10:07 AM

Here's a suggestion to Keith and Mark. If you don't like the discussion, don't read the threads. Pretty simple really.

I personally believe in the system because I've seen what it is capable of doing over the long term. As in, Steve has shown me his personal trades over a ten year period. Is it guaranteed to perform like that over the next x years? Of course not! Am I willing, as an investor, to take a punt on it? Yes.

But I also choose to look outside the fund to place my money in other areas. My personal risk profile doesn't approve of putting my money exclusively into one area. I like to spread things around a little as I personally don't feel comfortable relying on one exclusive situation to make me money.

Mark

Andrew_A

10-01-2006, 10:31 AM

I think Steve's fund receives a huge amount of scrutiny on these forums, and understandably so as plenty of forum members are investors in the fund. I have limited knowledge of funds but suspect Steve's is a pretty decent one I would estimate. If you shine the spotlight on any investing vehicle you are likely to uncover some concerns. I don't agree with Keith's sentiments about moderation though, robust debate certainly seems to continue OK here imo.

I would refrain from participating in this thread normally except I feel Ebbie's query deserves a reply.

Regarding my exit point in the Navra fund. I received a costly lesson in liquidity of investment funds. The time line of my journey.

30/9/2005: I decided to sell all my units in the Navra fund as my own trading is doing better and I want my money back, sent an email to Navra Invest asking what the mechanics were for redeeming my units. Fund +10.2%

4/10/2005: Recieved a reply to my email from Navra Invest about selling my funds, I will have to download a form from the site and get BT to send authorization. Emailed my signed request into BT and asked for email confirmation of the request. Form emailed at 5pm on the 4th, expecting the redemption date to be the price at the close on the 5/10/2005: Fund +10.07%

5th and 6th October the XJO falls out of bed recording subsequent 100 point falls, ouch. I was expecting to receive the unit price at business close on the 5/10/2005 so I would only wear the first bad day; or so I thought.

6/10/2005: Navra Invest still haven't recieved my request from my margin lender. Now I was worried, I still haven't received an explanation about why it took two days for my request to be redeemed, I understand it was express posted as It couldn't be faxed?! Fund +8.11%

My Margin Lender: The effective date you should receive is the 5/10.
The request left us here in the morning at about 9:30am.

7/10 Navra Invest: Please be advised, we have today received the Redemption documentation from BT and will process accordingly. Fund +6.1%

I'm posting this primarily because I would like others to be aware of these issues when you are using a Margin Lender and the market takes a hit. I didn't receive a reply to my last email asking for an explanation, I tried a PM here to Steve but am not sure if he still checks them. The end of my story for the moment.

MichaelW

10-01-2006, 10:32 AM

So if you'd bought an index fund you'd be 60 K up , so compared with the index your 20 K down. So that's outperforming the index ??

Isn't that what Steve aim's to do ? :confused:

See ChangeSeech,

Spot on. And don't think this has slipped past me unnoticed. They didn't earn a performance fee this quarter and for good reason. I'm still waiting for the "unrealised gains" to materialise and am watching the funds performance very carefully. There's a large "opportunity cost" that I'm wearing at the moment from buying Navra and not the index that I'm not too happy with. I've posted several poignant questions on that very point over on InvestEd and am promised a face-to-face education session with Steve and other fund holders to explain their profit taking model and resultant unit price performance.

Anyway, there are obviously better funds out there and I'm no Navra disciple. Just when someone here posts a question about Navra specifically, then I feel its polite to post my specific, fact-based experience to date. You can do worse than park your cash in that fund at the moment. In fact, if I hadn't done so I'd be $40K less costs worse off over the quarter as the alternative for me at the time was to do nothing.

Take it or leave it, facts are facts, do with it as you will.

Cheers,
Michael.

geoffw

10-01-2006, 10:35 AM

The reason there's so much discussion of Navra products in here, is that Steve was an active contributing member to the forum for quite some time. In the same way, people like DaleGG, Rolf Latham, Rolf Scaefer, Michael Yardney and other professionals in the forum have contributed, and have in turn benefited from picking up clients. A lot of members in this forum now have funds with Steve, so there's going to be a lot of people who have some knowledge and who want to contribute views.

If people contribute knowledge, then imho they have the right to benefit from the forum. What we don't tolerate is people who seek to get something without contributing. Blatant spam as a first post is removed quite quickly. And we have had some who have started out in self-promotion mode- but who have realised what the forum is about, and contribute from their own area of expertise. Everybody gets a benefit in this way.

In this case, the opinions being expressed are not even being expressed by the person who would benefit. It's by clients who have perhaps been satisfied with the product- and some who have not.

dee

10-01-2006, 11:03 AM

I also have a largish navra fund holding.
Ive held for over one year.
The fund has underperformed the index by quite a margin. Even with high volatility recently its been underperforming. Its been quite disappointing.
I suspect many on this forum also have a large amount of their share portfolio in navra - ie >50%

It would have to outperform by a huge margin just to catch up
My plan is manage my risk better by buying
platinum international brands/ asia / japan funds
vanguard index aussie, international funds, high yield
LIC's - which have outperformed index long term, AFI (i already hold), ARG,
shares - BHP (holding already), other
maybe some property funds

I feel that this kinda portfolio in addition to property holdings would have less volatility, less risk, and great performance.

Navra fund is also quite tax inefficient
Its purpose is an income fund, for parking extracted equity within steves structure. It was never designed for growth, which I think some people on this forum are using it for.
It converts realised capital gains to income - which gets taxed
Dont assume that reinvesting capital into the fund that u get away from it being taxed. You dont get the advantage of the 50% CGT 1yr rule as its trading a lot.

cheers

The Y-man

10-01-2006, 11:51 AM

The fund has underperformed the index by quite a margin. Even with high volatility recently its been underperforming. Its been quite disappointing.

Not sure I have seen much volatility to be honest :confused: ..... if there had been, the indices would not have climbed steadily.....

Cheers,

The Y-man

Macca

10-01-2006, 07:58 PM

Bill.L

10-01-2006, 09:31 PM

Hi all,

I have a few questions of the disciples of managed funds, whether the Navra fund or any other.(plus one for the Navra followers)

Do you believe in the axiom, cut your losses short and let your profits run??? or do you make exceptions to your "normal" rules because a particular fund has such a wonderful theoretical performance??
Do you have preset points where you will say enough underperformance is enough, or do you hold "for the long term" as good companies will always come back??

Mark Lasz, When you post about how you will pile in to a fund when it is down, you should a least have the courtesy to tell the new forumites who may be viewing, that you have a personal interest as you are an employee of Navra.

Of course I know nothing about the Navra fund, but I can remember reading somewhere about how it traded a certain group of companies based on good fundamentals. If the price went down, it bought more shares in those companies, as the price rose it sold down some of those shares. As such, it should not surprise the investors into that fund, that as some stocks continue to make new highs week after week, the fund will hold less of those shares, but as other companies within the list continue to make new lows the fund will hold more of those.
Could any of the knowledgeable followers of the strategy indicate if they feel that be an accurate (short) assessment of the fund???
If it is, then where is the surprise at the underperformance compared to index funds that reflect performance of those large cap stocks that rise the most??

bye

GreatPig

10-01-2006, 10:41 PM

If the price went down, it bought more shares in those companies, as the price rose it sold down some of those shares.
Which seems to be a similar principle to Lichello's AIM:

http://www.aim-users.com

http://home.earthlink.net/~beand/cpt/aimbasic.htm

Cheers,
GP

Mark Laszczuk

11-01-2006, 01:17 AM

Mark Lasz, When you post about how you will pile in to a fund when it is down, you should a least have the courtesy to tell the new forumites who may be viewing, that you have a personal interest as you are an employee of Navra.

I was waiting for that to come up. As I have said in the past, I come on here as an individual, not as an employee of Navra. I don't see where I have a 'personal interest'? Well, not anymore than someone who may own units in the fund or shares in the company.

Maybe everyone of those people who post should 'declare their interest' also? Like I've said in the past - and will say again - I come on here as an investor, not as an employee of Navra. I am not selling anything, nor do I ever have the intention of doing so. I word my posts relating to Navra very very carefully so as not to come across as selling anything.

I made that comment Bill because that is what I would do personally, and I made that very clear. I did not, nor would I ever encourage others to do so because it is my own personal decision and it is a decision made very carefully. I most certainly wouldn't be so careless with my 'hard earned' as to blindly put it into anything simply because it was 'down'.

Your views on when to put money into the market are well documented Bill and I respect those views. They have obviously worked for you and that's great. Shame you can't accept that others like or prefer to do things differently to you. But this conversation has been repeated so many times, I'm just going to walk away from it.

Mark

Mark Laszczuk

11-01-2006, 01:28 AM

To Bill,

I would agree that your estimation of how the fund works is accurate. Yes, it buys shares as they fall in value and sells them as they rise. That's the way the system is designed. Does it have flaws? Of course! Show me anything ever produced by man that doesn't have flaws.

But I would like to ask some of the detractors this question: If it is such a bad system, why is Steve so confident that it will work over the long term (by work I mean outperform the index) that he (or NavraInvest rather) only charge a fee to unitholders if it does outperform?

Yes, I understand that this issue has been thrown back and forth for a ridiculousamount of time and will continue ad infinitum but I don't recall off the top of my head the question I just asked having been asked, so I was just curious as to what some people thought in regards to it.

Mark

The Y-man

11-01-2006, 08:10 AM

Hi all,

Do you believe in the axiom, cut your losses short and let your profits run??? or do you make exceptions to your "normal" rules because a particular fund has such a wonderful theoretical performance??
Do you have preset points where you will say enough underperformance is enough, or do you hold "for the long term" as good companies will always come back??

I've heard of the axiom, but I am too undisciplined/slack/lazy to follow it.... tend towards selling out as soon as I see a few dollars... :)

On the MF front though, I tend to hold.... not for any particular reason other than just being too lazy to do anything with it I suspect.... :p

I do occasionally attempt to "rebalance" by investing some of the returns (or proceeds of sales for that matter) into a fund that has become a bit "underallocated" due to under performance (non-performance? :D )

I have Navra funds, but they form less than 4% of my entire managed fund portfolio, and he is one of 12 fund managers I use.

If it is, then where is the surprise at the underperformance compared to index funds that reflect performance of those large cap stocks that rise the most??

As I have posted previously, there should be no surprise at all. If people think the October move was significant, they haven't seen nothing close to serious volatility......

Cheers,

The Y-man

The Y-man

11-01-2006, 08:13 AM

I do not have funds with Navra as I do my own investing, BUT with the index making new highs all the time it does suit buy and hold funds rather than the Navra type fund.

The Navra fund method really performs best in a market going nowhere.

just my thoughts on it :D

Probably more accurate to say a market channeling thru highs and lows than a truly flat market would be the ideal for a trading fund.

A buy-write fund would be the best for a truly flat market.

Cheers,

The Y-man

see_change

11-01-2006, 08:18 AM

As I have posted previously, there should be no surprise at all. If people think the October move was significant, they haven't seen nothing close to serious volatility......

Cheers,

The Y-man

I would have assumed though , that that was the degree of volitility that the fund was looking for and should be expected to perform in. Earlier this year was more volotile ( from my perception ) and my trend following system hit every stop, though ( from memory ) in October only one of my trades hit a stop .

I'd be suprised if the fund was expected to perform only when the market is extremely volotile.

See Change

Bill.L

11-01-2006, 08:48 AM

Hi all,

Mark's quote

"If it is such a bad system, why is Steve so confident that it will work over the long term (by work I mean outperform the index) that he (or NavraInvest rather) only charge a fee to unitholders if it does outperform?"

Does the PDS allow for a change in the fee structure??

If the stocks in the index always stayed the same, then the system would have a better chance of beating it over the long term. Todays top 50 stocks (by market cap and hence index weighting) are vastly different to that of 20 years ago.

That's the way the system is designed. Does it have flaws? Of course!

This is probably the first acknowledgement by a promoter of the fund. My main criticism has been centered around this point. All I ever see from the promoters of this fund are the positives. Full discussion for education purposes should spell out what these flaws are, what the risks are (not just the bland "there are risks with any investment").

Anything less is just plain advertising which should not be what this forum is about.

I don't see where I have a 'personal interest'? Well, not anymore than someone who may own units in the fund or shares in the company.

You have got to be kidding.

bye

keithj

11-01-2006, 09:11 AM

But I would like to ask some of the detractors this question: If it is such a bad system, why is Steve so confident that it will work over the long term (by work I mean outperform the index) that he (or NavraInvest rather) only charge a fee to unitholders if it does outperform?Hi Mark,

The answer is simple. Assume a fund beats the index 50% of the time - it get's a whopping outperformance fee. The other 50% of the time it underperforms and so gets nothing. So the fund manager either wins or breaks even.

How about playing heads or tails - head I win, tails I break even - wanna play with me?

If a fundmanager was really confident he would pay the unitholders for any period that he underperformed.

The other point to make is that if someone cannot lose then it often encourages them to take bigger risks.

...but I don't recall off the top of my head the question I just asked having been asked, so I was just curious as to what some people thought in regards to it.The point has been made before here (http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showpost.php/?p=150938&postcount=18).

Cheers,

KJ

MichaelW

11-01-2006, 09:46 AM

Kieth,

Good response. And something I was thinking myself. Interestingly, Navra have just changed their fee accrual process too. In the past they accrued their fees in quarters where they beat the index but only received payment from those accruals if they beat the index for the full year. That used to go a long way to ensure they actually had to outperform the index consistently before they earnt a penny.

Now, they've removed that full year check and get paid their fee quarter by quarter based on performance over that period. In other words, they can have a great quarter and get paid a nice commission thank you very much, then have a dog of a quarter and get paid nothing. They can finish the full year well behind the index but will still have been paid that nice commission in the good period that they had.

This recent change to their fee structure completely removes this "no performance/no fee" point of differentiation in the market as far as I'm concerned.

Cheers,
Michael.

Andrew_A

11-01-2006, 10:05 AM

edit....
Case in point: the market dropped more than 5% in October (as it often does). My response was to buy in big into Navra. I put $600K in on 14/10 when the ASX200 was at 4410. Today its at 4830. That's almost a 10% improvement over the last 3 months. My Navra funds have gone up 6.5% over that period so have under-performed the index. Steve reckons there's a lot of unrealised potential in the fund as he releases value now that its back above its previous high so I might yet get a lot more performance out of it.
.. edit My bolding of the text.

Michael I think this is double speak.

At any point in time the unit price of the fund represent the liquidation value. If everything was sold you would simply multiply the units x the unit price (minus commissions for share sales and other administrative costs if there are any) and that would equal the cash pile left over.

I just don't like the language 'holding much value' or 'holding unreleased potential' as I think it's true but potentially very misleading.

Every time I buy a share It has 'unlimited potential' and 'huge future value', even more so because I just bought it :) It doesn't change the fact that it's not worth any more than the price I just paid for it though. And also my purchase has 'large potential losses' built in as well. Nobody can tell the future.

Perhaps someone can explain to me what I'm missing here?

Mark Laszczuk

11-01-2006, 11:39 AM

MichaelW

11-01-2006, 11:43 AM

Michael I think this is double speak.

At any point in time the unit price of the fund represent the liquidation value. If everything was sold you would simply multiply the units x the unit price (minus commissions for share sales and other administrative costs if there are any) and that would equal the cash pile left over.
Andrew,

Again spot on. I made this point myself over on InvestEd and was assured that there is in fact some unrealised value not represented in the unit price. I'm confused by this and made the exact same point that you did above. The answer from Steve was that its all very complex and that we should probably have a face-to-face session and explain it and any other questions to unit holders. I like Steve and his company, and obviously trust him enough to put some big money into his fund, so am looking forward to the face-to-face session to get to the bottom of a few of my concerns. At this stage I'm reserving my judgement.

When I do get some hard answers to all the questions I've raised I'll post them here now that they've been aired on SS.

At the end of the day though, I've underperformed the index since being in the fund. BUT, I've still turned a 6.5% gross profit for the quarter which makes me $25,000 better off after interest expenses are taken into account. That was my point in the original reply to this thread. You can "do worse" than turning a $25K profit before tax in 3 months. Just would have been even better had I bought the index...

Cheers mate,
Michael.

willair

11-01-2006, 01:11 PM

This post gets better each time i read the updates ,and varies
from person to person,imho such personal variations may account
for the distortions in a story passed from member to member of a
investment group,Michael if you do like the numbers on your money
then unlload your holdings,and do the deal yourself you may well
find that you can do no worse,or better than the fund you are in..
good luck
willair..

Macca

11-01-2006, 09:15 PM

Hi Y man,

As this is a property forum I was trying to keep it simple.

This discussion about Navra keeps getting dragged up, with some very inexperienced people clearly not understanding that there are many different types of funds and that the performance of funds will vary according to market conditions.

They also don't seem to comprehend that when a fund states that "we do it this way" then, by law, that is the way they HAVE to do it. They cannot chop and change their strategy at whim.

There are also some experienced people deliberately stirring the pot and I think it is a little unfair to the Somers to continually use this forum to discuss the same share fund ad nauseum.

There are a lot of investment and share forums that these questions can be asked on , there are heaps of investment books available in libraries, it is OK to ask for a few pointers to these forums from the likes of you and I (and others) but , gees guys, give Navra a rest please :confused:

Lily House

11-01-2006, 09:52 PM

Thanks Michael (Whyte) for all the honest info you are providing the forum.
I, for one, would be interested in any updates as you go (your meeting with Steve) etc.
Thanks
Lily

see_change

11-01-2006, 09:57 PM

There are also some experienced people deliberately stirring the pot and I think it is a little unfair to the Somers to continually use this forum to discuss the same share fund ad nauseum.

Macca

I don't think anyone is deliberately stirring the pot... but if the same / similar questions keep getting asked again and again and some people have strongly held , but divergent views ( assuming that these views are presented in a reasonable fashion ) , should members restrain from giving their opinion ?

If people restrained from giving their opinions , then the people asking questions wouldn't get the full range of opinions existing on the forum and might come to conclusions that they otherwise wouldn't come to.

Isn't getting different opinions what this place is all about ?

Surely those on the forum who are bored with questions re Navra should have learnt to ignore these posts by now :rolleyes: ... and the rest of us :o :o

See Change

Mark Laszczuk

11-01-2006, 10:21 PM

Excellent points there see_change. Vigorous debate is what make the forum so great (if sometimes frustrating)!

Mark

Ol School Skata

11-01-2006, 10:34 PM

If your football team does not perform...do you cash in your membership before the end of the season???

Imagine this...

You buy a membership to a football club.

Part of the information package of the membership said the club will aim to beat the opposition each year by a minimum of 5 points each game,

Membership information also said this membership type is ideally suited for a full season.

You buy (a considerable sum in your language).

After about the first quarter of games and approaching half way through the season, the team does not win every game by 5 points.

In fact it lost some, won some, and drew some.

Do you decide to sell out and then go and support another football team????

Have football teams not been known sit around the middle of the table getting to near the middle of the season and then something clicks and the team pulls out a miracle set of performances for the rest of the season and wins the minor premiership???????

Does this sound familiar??

I have nothing invested in Navra Funds but have used managed funds previously.

The fund's objective is to outperform the index by a considerable margin.

The PDS states the minimum investment time period of 5 years. Some of you have invested for only 4 months and are already complaining because you are looking over the fence and seeing what appears to be greener grass.

If you have invested, one can only assume you read the PDS, as I am sure all of the "sophisticated" investors have done, made sure you understood the investment, as I am sure all the "sophisticated" investors have done, and made a "sophisticated" decision to invest!??!!?!

OSS

Bill.L

11-01-2006, 11:06 PM

Hi all,

OSS, Football teams you barrack for and buy memberships for are emotional decisions.

Are you suggesting that we treat investments emotionally??? Then again maybe some do, and you are correct!! :eek:

bye

Ol School Skata

11-01-2006, 11:08 PM

indeed they are Bill.

Only using it as an example do not try to read too much into it

OSS

see_change

12-01-2006, 08:22 AM

Hi all,

Are you suggesting that we treat investments emotionally??? Then again maybe some do, and you are correct!! :eek:
bye

Bill ... That's getting naughty :rolleyes:
though , OSS , I must admit it's not an analogy I would have chosen in the circumstances....

Having said that and digressing , when you've been following the Swans for as long as I have , and they finally do win , the emotional high lasts for a looooooong time... :cool: :D

See Change

pete_w

12-01-2006, 11:19 PM

i promised myself id steer clear of any navra thread, but ive always wondered: is it a logical fallacy to expect a fund that invests solely in stocks that make up a fair portion of an index to be able to outperform that index (to a level of %5 - 10%)? i wonder if they would be better focusing on financially stable mid caps not part of the index, that way the performance of the individual stocks wouldnt skew the benchmark with which the fund is to be judged, and maybe there would be more volatility, required for the navra system to shine as i understand it.

my $0.02 for the evening.

GreatPig

12-01-2006, 11:49 PM

is it a logical fallacy to expect a fund that invests solely in stocks that make up a fair portion of an index to be able to outperform that index
I don't think the stocks in the Navra fund do make up a fair portion of the index. According to the NavraInvest website, the current portfolio is 20 stocks, which is only 10% of the ASX200.

Of course it depends on your idea of "fair portion" though :D

Cheers,
GP

geoffw

13-01-2006, 12:09 AM

That's right GP. Any stock selected MUST be in the ASX200; it must also qualify through their own fundamental analysis to qualify for inclusion.

If you bought shares, and held them, you would expect those shares to perhaps match the index- perhaps outperform them if you selected well. But the Navra methodology is to trade them on the way up, or on the way down. It's an approach which is supposed to get good results.

One other point. If the ASX200 is on the way down, but the fund drops less than the ASX200, the fund still collects their outperformance fee. So if the index drops 10%, and the fund 5%, they charge you their percentage of that 5% difference.

But, on the other side- comparing an income vs a growth fund.

If a growth fund gains a lot, and then loses it, you've had nothing to show for that time it got higher. But if an income fund rises, and then drops, you have had income for that time when the fund was higher, which you will not lose when it drops again (unless you reinvest that income :D). That may or may not suit one's own objectives.

Ol School Skata

13-01-2006, 12:26 AM

I don't think the stocks in the Navra fund do make up a fair portion of the index. According to the NavraInvest website, the current portfolio is 20 stocks, which is only 10% of the ASX200.

Of course it depends on your idea of "fair portion" though :D

Cheers,
GP

Not all stocks in the index are treated equally tho. Some of the top stocks by market cap may account for more than an equal share of the ASX200 index, therefore can affect the index result.

ie not every stock contributes 0.5% to the ASX200 index. Some like BHP, NAB, TLS account for up to 5% or more if i remember correctly.

So a 2% movement in these stocks may or will have a bigger impact on the ASX200 index result than a company listed at number 199 (by market capitalisation) moving 10%.

OSS

Andrew_A

13-01-2006, 12:31 AM

edit... But, on the other side- comparing an income vs a growth fund.

If a growth fund gains a lot, and then loses it, you've had nothing to show for that time it got higher. But if an income fund rises, and then drops, you have had income for that time when the fund was higher, which you will not lose when it drops again (unless you reinvest that income :D). That may or may not suit one's own objectives.Geoff this is potentially misleading.

Simply selling units in a growth fund on a periodic basis would be exactly the same as receiving payment from an income fund (assuming you have a growth fund that charges you no or minimal transaction fees) and this would allow you personal control of the tax drag of the income as well.

The difference in your two examples is simply that in your first example you have taken money out of the market and in the second you didn't.

geoffw

13-01-2006, 12:42 AM

Geoff this is potentially misleading.That may be. It's not my intention to mislead.

But on the other hand, if one reinvested profits from an income fund back into the fund, you've achieved the same results as a growth fund, but potentially with a bigger tax liability (because growth stocks held more than 12 months will give you a 50% CGT exemption).

Andrew_A

13-01-2006, 12:47 AM

That may be. It's not my intention to mislead.

But on the other hand, if one reinvested profits from an income fund back into the fund, you've achieved the same results as a growth fund, but potentially with a bigger tax liability (because growth stocks held more than 12 months will give you a 50% CGT exemption).True. Also I'm not aware how easy it is to find unit growth funds with no withdrawal fees, maybe it's not easy at all.

All comes back to how much value your fund manager can add to your investment in the end. I'm not -ve geared into property at the moment so the quarterly tax hits really didn't suit my personal situation.

The Y-man

13-01-2006, 08:36 AM

Also I'm not aware how easy it is to find unit growth funds with no withdrawal fees, maybe it's not easy at all.

.

Most have entry fees but no exit fees.

Cheers,

The Y-man

TryHard

03-02-2006, 04:27 PM

On the original topic :

How does his funds compare to other managed funds. I intend to do some research of my own, but thought I would put the question to others

http://www.investsmart.com.au/funds/search.asp

(If you want to compare funds like NavraInvest, look at Australian Equity, and you'll need to tick the "Not rated" box as NavraInvest has not been operating long enough to be rated, if you want to run a full comparison. including NI)

--------------------

Off the original topic but in line with the rest of the discussion :confused: :

Wow ! Its been a while since I searched for "navra" on this forum, but I see the emotion and substantial postings still flow ! If 'no publicity is bad publicity' I guess Steve Navra would be pleased.

Clarification / Disclaimer / Disclosure :
I am a shareholder and unitholder in NavraInvest

Why ?

Unitholding because :
- I tried direct investment in shares, following some of the fundamentals mentioned here, lost some / made some / broke even after 12 months of teeth-gnashing - - anyone who suggests you can learn the sharemarket and its idiosyncracies easily is having a lend of you
- I need some additional income while awaiting capital for next property development and also need some of my funds to be liquid
- managed funds might be the lazy way out but they beat the hell out of making nothing after one year of effort
- the presentation and PDS on NavraInvest made sense to me
Shareholding because :
- I bought some shares as I see growth potential in the Company, particularly when it launches its Dow Fund

... if you want to join the Navra clones / puppets / disciples then <expletive deleted> off to his forum.

I can second Pitt St's recommendation that the InvestEd forum is very useful (if I understand that message correctly :D ) depending on what sort of information you need. Not sure how many clones etc. you'll find, as there is some pretty healthy debate - its certainly not the Steve Navra fan club if that's what's being implied :rolleyes:

I like being a member of Somersoft as there is no better property forum. I like being a member of InvestEd because it deals with a range of other investment, legal and accounting issues - a lot of the opinion and articles come from professionals in their field, which go beyond (and generally are easier to follow than) the 'opinions' you get in an open discussion - some posts in this thread being a prime example ;-) Not that there is * anything * wrong with everyone's ideas and opinions, but I prefer the less emotional discussions and clear substantiated direction

To clarify, the forum is not part of NavraInvest, it is run by another Investor Education style business in which Steve Navra is a shareholder (and founder, I think) - so you can be pro-Navra, anti-Navra whatever - I've not seen any evidence of posts being edited or refused.

I'm simply mentioning it because I think it would be a shame for investors to feel they have to choose one or the other forum - in my experience they are very complementary. Sort of liking having a wife/husband at home, and a mistress/toy boy at the beach house (depending on your persuasion). And there is certainly plenty of cross-referencing back to Somersoft from the InvestEd forum - just because some here have the name Navra knotted in their knickers shouldn't mean everyone else can't learn wherever the journey might take them ... (and before anyone goes feral, chill - its nearly the weekend after all) :cool:

I didn't invest in the Navra fund because I thought Steve Navra was the Messiah. The past and present performance of the fund, and the underlying security of the types of shares they hold, and the fund's relatively conservative nature, gave me confidence that it would perform ok for my needs. And so far it has. So does that make me right, wrong, clone, stupid ? I dunno. I'm too stupid to work that one out :p .

My understanding is the current market conditions do not suit the fund which operates best in periods of volatility, and it is correct that its not beating the index. But the performance at today's date still looks pretty good to me (the performance chart is available on the unmentionable website too).

The last distribution I received (the worst return I have received so far) meant
I DID :
. pay all the interest on the loan and left some to spend on lifestyle
. get a new rider mower the size of a small car (on which I am as flash as a rat with a gold tooth)
AND I DIDN'T :
. have to tune in to the stock market
. call my broker every day
. get to quote lots of important indices and figures
. run around yelling "Buy!Buy!Sell!Sell!" into my mobile phone.

Is it risk free ? No
Is it conservative ? Fairly
Can I get my money at short notice ? Yes
Is there regular income ? Yes
Is there growth : So far, for me, yes
Are the returns good ? So far, for me, yes
Is it better than leaving your money in the bank ? So far, for me, yes
Is it better than direct investment in shares ? In my particular situation - bloody oath :-)
Will you ever see an impartial discussion about Navra on this forum ? Pig clearing for take off runway 5. There are too many interests with an axe to grind from both sides, IMHO.

The bottom line is whether NavraInvest is suited to you depends entirely on your personal situation, risk profile, experience etc. and should be discussed with your financial advisor.

Have an excellent weekend

Peace
Carl

Mark Laszczuk

03-02-2006, 04:39 PM

Hot damn Carl, if that's not one of the best posts I've seen in a while!

Mark

MichaelW

03-02-2006, 04:41 PM

My understanding is the current market conditions do not suit the fund which operates best in periods of volatility, and it is correct that its not beating the index. But the performance at today's date still looks pretty good to me (the performance chart is available on the unmentionable website too). Carl,

Or right here if you're interested too... ;)

Nice one,
Michael.

PS. That Chart is from my entry date on the 14/10/05. As at today I'm up 6.7% and the index is up 10.63% representing a gap of -3.94% to the index. But that's still 6.7% UP! :D

TryHard

03-02-2006, 04:50 PM

Hot damn Carl, if that's not one of the best posts I've seen in a while! Mark
Might not deserve quite that much kudos mate ;-)

Or right here if you're interested too...
I knew you'd have the best figures Michael - nice one !

Happy weekend to all - time to find the sixpack of little Green Dutch soldiers I hid under the lettuce in the crisper ;-)

MichaelW

03-02-2006, 04:55 PM

appy weekend to all - time to find the sixpack of little Green Dutch soldiers I hid under the lettuce in the crisper ;-)OK,

Now THAT's woth some kudos! :D

Nice weekend all,
Michael.

willair

03-02-2006, 05:02 PM

Try Hard,
well done ,just a quick question with your Nav trade units what price are they
are they above $2.50, or are they still the same at that price?,do you think you would have problem to sell your holdings if a problem came into play.
good luck
willair/

obiwan

03-02-2006, 05:16 PM

On the original topic :

http://www.investsmart.com.au/funds/search.asp

(If you want to compare funds like NavraInvest, look at Australian Equity, and you'll need to tick the "Not rated" box as NavraInvest has not been operating long enough to be rated, if you want to run a full comparison. including NI)

What have you done TryHard you have unleashed the demon again?
Being new to this forum I was very supprised when this topic got to 5 pages long and to see it at the top of the today's post list my jaw dropped ha ha

Thanks for the opening line (on the original topic?) it is funny how the topic of the thread can sometimes change when people start to get into heavy discussions. SO thanks for helping there, I will investigate it further.

Regards Obi :D

TryHard

03-02-2006, 05:31 PM

your Nav trade units what price are they
are they above $2.50, or are they still the same at that price?,do you think you would have problem to sell your holdings if a problem came into play

Hi Willair

I guess you mean the shareholding in NavraInvest ?

They're unlisted shares and a speculative investment. I am comfortable with them because of the potential in the company's future growth, based on
$109M FUM and rising (I think it was $20M when Steve first started posting on Somersoft), and a launch into the US market due this quarter (a market which I understand exhibits significantly more volatility than the domestic market, and represents close to ideal trading conditions for the NavTrade system).

Do I think I could sell them if there was a 'problem'. A problem for me or a problem for NavraInvest ?

I purchased my holding through our SMSF. They were $2.50. I won't know what I make or lose until I sell them, or try to sell them. I don't intend to sell them, as I fully expect they will be one of the larger holdings within the SMSF many years down the track, earning a healthy dividend.

However, as I'm 38 years old, and I have to last another 20 + years to see any of the returns, I sincerely doubt any 'problem' myself, NavraInvest, or any of the shares I hold in that portfolio might encounter is going to have any real effect on me whatsoever ;-)

Mind you, if and when I make 60, I might start taking more notice. I have to survive the missus, a 15 month old maniac called Ella, two boxer dogs, a number of rather unhealthy addictions, and the traffic on the Western corridor into Brisbane, to make 39. One step at a time. No problem ;-)

Cheers
Carl