National Investment Institute (NII)

[Economic]

This message is based on my personal experience with this organisation. I just want to highlight some of the events that occured and hopefully by the end of this post, people are a little more informed then previously.

For me it began as a simple information session about property. I was told about this seminar through a friend, who spoke highly of the seminar. He told me that just by going to this seminar you will learn things that is not only easy to understand but the information presented is useful, common sense and implementation is easy with the right learning instruments.

I went to this seminar that my friend so strongly encouraged and must admit, I did learn things I was previously unaware. I learnt a little about deposit bonds, mezzanine and how to accumulate properties relatively easily and in short periods of time.

I filled the questionaire form that was handed out at the start of the night and returned it at the end of the seminar. When leaving the seminar, I spoke to my friend and advised him that although there was good information, I thought the seminar was a bit of a sell. I do not like seminars where they really encourage you to do the course and all they ever do is promote themselves.

The next day, I received a phone call from NII to arrange an appointment and discuss further the information presented at the seminar. I saw this as another opportunity, to learn a little more.

I attended the consultation and was in a small meeting room, that almost felt like an interview. I was provided a questionaire and on this form I completed some section on a scale of 1(lowest) to 10(greatest) on things like "How confident I was to take action" or "My tolerance level of risk" etc etc.

In this interview, the consultant saw my score of 6 for taking action and after working with me for a little while, that 6 became a 10. I was motivated and encouraged. I felt good as he gave me examples and how I was able to relate to them, thinking that I can take almost any action I want. After a lengthy discussion and feeling like I was floating on clouds, confident, fearless of risk and determined; He came up with something like "You can have all this for $100 a week". At that point in time of feeling great, I thought to myself what's $100 a week, when I have been guaranteed my money back if I do not succeed. I started asking a few more questions like:
1) What is the total cost of the course? I was told $15000
2) What exactly do I get for that $15000? I was told 5 seminars some additional information sessions and the huge DVD collection (24 titles from memory)
3) How many properties do you own (the consultant)? I was told a couple, but due to some circumstances he was unable to be fully implement the NII system.

I asked more questions and was still in a state where I wanted to go home and think about it. They pressed on me to sign up and at one point they involved another consultant to also convince me. I still thought I needed time to think about it. After some more persuasion, I decided to sign myself up.

After thinking about it driving home, I sought comfort by calling my friend and telling him about it. He thought I had made a great decision and I would not regret it. That made me feel a little more comfortable. However that night as I reflected on everything that was said and kept thinking about the cost of 15K, I was thinking up strategies on how I can pay this amount off quickly. I also thought that the cost was a bit much for the service that was to be provided.

In the end I cancelled and I was allowed to cancel. I did this immediately the next day. I do not know what would have happened if my deposit was taken. My opinion and advise to others I have listed below.

1) The seminar is the initial soft sell.
2) The consultation is the hard sell. If your the type of person that can be persuaded easily, DON'T GO. If your the type of person who is sceptical (like me), I suggest make your decisions at home where you can really reflect on what was discussed and not having the pressure in the consultation.
3) $15K is an excessive amount of money to be paying for a course. It is actually $20K by the time you pay off the interest over 4 years @ $100/week.
4) If NII was so concerned in educating people, then what is the reason for charging astronomical prices? Universities might charge that sort of money for a 4 years course and that includes text books and alot of lectures/tutorials.
5) Typically property CAN and WILL go down at times. It just so happens that we have seen an excessively long growth in real estate.
6) This leads on to "Expectations" or "Expectations Theory". This assumes that people perceptions of what is occuring now, will continue to do so in the future. If you are unaware of this theory, grab yourself an economics Textbook.
7) Property is not the only wealth generating investment available. Shares have outperformed Real estate in the long run (but I guess that is for discussion in other threads).
8) Assuming you have the so called guarantee, that NII will make you $50K or get a full refund plus an additional $2000, but what happens if you lose $50K? Will NII refund you that money? You see under NII there is never any downside risk. If there is they never make you aware of it.
9) Mezzanine finance is high risk. Do a word search through yahoo etc and when you read into it, you will see that it is not safe as NII make it out to be. High returns usually mean HIGH RISK.
10) Henry Kaye is becoming wealthy, not through his investment strategies but the expensive courses he conducts. I read somewhere in this forum that 1,000 people @ $15K each, provides him with $15Million. A hefty amount for some seminars.
11) I spent $150 on some books and I would probably learn more from them than I could at his seminar.
12) If anyone has been to a NII seminar and they try and convince you to go, know for a fact that these people are receiving a commission of $500. I know this because my friend told me about it. I went along as a favour for him.

Anyway, ultimately it is your own decision. I have gone through some issues in my dealing with NII and my expressed opinions about them. Hopefully some will benefit from my post.

Regards,
Eco...

[asy]

WOW.

What an absolutely magnificent post.

Thanks Ecomnomic...

Very well done, and thank you...

asy :D

[Sunstone]

Dear Economic,

Congrats on taking the courage to put up this post. I appreciate you taking this important step.

Feel free to ask for more help anytime mate.

Cheers,

Sunstone.

[Kevmeister]

Thanks Economic,

I concur that you've made a great post, and for having the fortitude to express an opinion which to some is not very palatable.

It would seem the major gripe I keep hearing about this course is the cost, not necessarily the quality of the information.

My friend did this course not that long ago when it cost $10K I think. I learned a lot from him "by osmosis" simply by chatting about what he'd learnt. I suspect there are things he has learnt which he hasn't told me, however.

Personally I wouldn't spend $15K on a course. It is simply too much money.

In my friend's case attending the course acted as the catalyst for him "getting off his bum" and doing something. I think he has 5 or 6 properties "on the boil", including some off the plan developments etc.

I therefore liken the NII course perhaps to a Weight Loss Centre. You can read about dieting and maintaining a healthy lifestyle, but often that's not enough to motivate you to do something (eg. if you want to lose weight). A Weight Loss Centre charges you, provides you with similar information, albeit face-to-face, often sells you "diet food", but the biggest difference is they provide more motivation [and encouragement] than most books can provide.

Just like weight-loss centres, some are more economical than others. Some don't require you to buy food, just attend the meetings, etc. Often the degree of information is equivalent, so is the degree of motivation, yet the prices still vary.

All that said, I still don't believe the NII course is worth $15K but I can see the reason for its existence, and the reason people take up the offer. Considering a large percentage of people attending these courses still remain complacent and never do something, I wonder whether these people would have simply been better off placing $15K in a decent managed fund for the next 40 years - at least that would be better than nothing.

As for me, I hope to attend the Steve Navra course in Melb in Feb 2003. The cost? The princely sum of $286.

Kevin.

[Bear924]

I had no idea what mezzanine finance was so I looked it up on the net and thought I'd post it for anyone else who was interested. Definition from IFY finance (I think??)

Mezzanine finance is a form of risk capital that combines the characteristics of conventional bank lending and equity funding. It is often used where the provision of traditional bank finance is considered too risky by a lender.
In return for accepting a higher funding risk, the mezzanine lender receives a higher rate of interest and a stake in the company’s equity. Mezzanine provides a distinct advantage to a company’s shareholders as it is less dilutive than traditional forms of equity investment.

Traditionally mezzanine has been used to bridge a funding gap in conventional management buy-outs and buy-ins. Times have changed. Mezzanine finance can now also be considered a stand alone funding solution, often as an alternative to more expensive equity finance. Mezzanine is now commonly used to provide acquisition finance, development capital, replacement capital as well as finance for the more traditional management buy-out, buy-in scenarios.



For this system to work do you borrow heavily using mezzanine finance, hold property for 2 years and then sell at a profit and therefore repaying loan and making a profit??

[Kevmeister]

Sorry, Bear, I didn't understand much of that at all...

[Lily House]

Thanks for that Economic - a very interesting read.
I'm just glad you had the option of cancelling the next day.

I would never pay $15,000 for a seminar - that is enough money for a deposit on a (small) property.

Lily

[Luke]

Very informative Econonomic.... thanks,

I have a cousin who went through a number of levels of the HK's NII courses, and even worked for someone in the group to do so. Within 12 months he was absolutely sick of working for them, seperated from his wife... but yet absolutely defended the idea of spending $7 - 17,000 on them. My impression was he was brainwashed. He didn't like their ethics, he hadn't been able to put their system into work, and his life was a mess, but still he thought the courses were the best thing out. Unbelievable.

I have taken one of this forums (NigelW's) law of investment courses: (which is loosely)
Never spend more than 1-2% of your net worth on any financial training or education process.

I'm sure there are exceptions... but I think it's a gem. And when I and my family are worth 1.5 million, I'll think about spending $15k on a course... maybe. Until then, I'll stick with mining this forum for more gems, and 'investing' in some of the $20-30 books that cover the financial sections of the bookshops.
Cheers
Luke

[Ross Sneddon]

Hi Eco

A good Post and plenty of courage.

A friend of mine asked me to go with him to a NII course about nine months ago.

Valued at $65 (I think) but free on this night etc.,

The conference consisted of watching a video presentation for 1 1/2 hours, not live nor any live speaker, just a video. I stayed for its entirety but watched at least 100 people or about 50% walk out progressively during the evening. Of those who remained I believe that most considered it a joke.

The punch line at the end was the course, valued at $35,000 to $40,000 but you can have it for $17,000 if you sign up within a week. etc., etc.. We will ring you and decide if we will accept you.

Two months ago, in a moment of weakness I agreed to go to a second conference but this time all about commercial investment.

To my surprise, we were told several things:

NII have only been in existence a short while and investing in residential real estate for 4 1/2 years

Six months ago, they "discovered" commercial Real Estate and now realise the huge amounts of money they didn't make and lost on residential and are now into commercial in a big way. Six months and now "experts", crap.

The whole point was that they now know how a valuer values Commercial Real Estate and they can now "work the system".

We were given a very expensive glossy promotion selling a Melbourns CBD property. I didn't wait till the end this time and walked out.

You made the right decision Eco. You can invest your money far more wisely elsewhere.

Regards

Ross

[091202]

I've just completed Investment Mastery. It's bloody great and here's why.

1) They are a results oriented organisation. You learn from and emulate people with a track record in property.
2) They get heavily into the details you need at every stage of a project saving valuable time.
3) The manual is well written, an excellent reference.
4) Support and ongoing meetings keep you mixing with like minded investors.
5) The IM weekend was packed with Real Estate Agents, property developers, builders, accountants, investors - a great mix of movers and shakers.

Choosing this course was a huge and agonising decision for me, but I can see now that for me it was worthwhile. Of course you need to be serious and you need to have the mindset, time and energy to implement.

Be like Henry and learn from everyone! My next investment will be Somersoft PIA software.

Cheers,

[Bill.L]

So 091202 you turn up to this forum without bothering to inform us of your experience,location or name other than a bunch of numbers.

Do you REALLY expect anyone to take you seriously in your advertising?? Give us some solid information to go on, for example how you have personally used this great information to further your property investment. Location of properties, price paid, yield expected, cap growth, etc.

Get a life, stop spamming, and contribute if you wish to be listened to in any way.

bye

[XBenX]

agreed, that post seems mighty dodgy

apologies in advance if im wrong :)

[asy]

Originally posted by 091202
Choosing this course was a huge and agonising decision for me, but I can see now that for me it was worthwhile. Of course you need to be serious and you need to have the mindset, time and energy to implement.


OK "date",

I'll give you the benifit of the doubt, I'll believe you aren't spamming :D



Questions for you:

What did you LEARN?

What was the pearl of wisdom that was worth the $$?


I am not being facetious, and I agree, HK's methods CAN suit some people, but I believe that they will, in the long run, harm more than they help. But that's just my opinion, prove me wrong! please!!

Also, just a comment, you may get more sympathy for your posts if you include a name, not just a date. This level of anonymity really induces suspicion! :)

asy :D

[Ross Sneddon]

Hi Date

I won't comment further on NII. I am suspicious of your comments.

I agree that your investment in a PIA program will be most beneficial.

I have been using PIA for a decade from when it was very simple and initially ran in Dos (I think) and have bought and upgraded every version since then to the most recent and current version.

I use it many times per week, have compared it with many others and while others may have some features which are attractive, I have found nothing that can really hold a candle to PIA.

That will be a good investment for you.

Regards

Ross

[Aceyducey]

There's nothing than turns me off attending courses such as the NII's as much as anonymous posters extolling their value.

If a real NII graduate would like to step forward, name themselves and have coffee with me and was still willing to say how much value the NII has provided to them I'd be more inclined to believe it.....

Any takers? I'll pay for the coffee!

Hey moderators, any way to track down the IP of 091202 and find out who they are? I'd find it very interesting if they were posting from the NII's offices or such.


Cheers,

Aceyducey

[Sim]

Do you really think that any NII graduate would dare show their face here after the villification that occurs everytime this topic is raised ?

I think you should all take a very close look at your motives and the way you present yourselves. Economic posted a very well thought out and considered post - do we want to spoil that effort ?

Sure, "date" posted something which smells a little like spam - or at least bait - but it was well written and not abusive - and all of a sudden we're in attack mode again.

I suggest we all need to learn to stop the cynicism and the negativity - we are starting to become a rather clique oriented forum, which is not good for anyone. Are people not entitled to their own opinion ?

Consider this a warning - posts which attack other posts or other people (as opposed to just questioning them in a reasonable manner) will be deleted.

And no, I am not interested in tracing the IP address ! Who really cares ? There are much more important things in life you should be worrying about !

[Aceyducey]

Sim,

I think you're reading too much into my message (and possibly others)

I'd love to question an NII graduate in a reasonable manner. Preferably face-to-face over coffee as this is the best way to really get an understanding of a system.

Personally I have no opinion on the NII, except the poor impression I get from anonymous posters, which I get on ANY TOPIC on which there are anonymous posters.

I'm surprised to hear about the villification of the NII on the forum, I haven't been on the forum long enough to have seen this.

091202 if you have fears about your safety on this forum, message me privately or email me. I want to hear what you think.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[Robert]

Hi Acy

Just a quick notation. This figures you put in for an IP address (IP of 091202) is not an IP Address. The normal view of IP addresses are 1-3 numbers followed by a "." in this style.

xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx or it could be xxx.x.xx.xxx as long as there are dot's and that the number does not exceed 255.255.255.255

Cheers
Robert

[Aceyducey]

Robert,

I didn't put in any IP addresses & know how they're formatted - I'm in the industry BTW :)

I suggest you reread the posts a little closer.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[asy]

OK,

I agree with Sim, and I apologise to date if my post sounded sarcastic in any way, it wasnt meant to be...

I am truly interested in what you learned in the course.

I have heard many people say "it's fantastic", but whenever they are asked exactly what they learned, they can't say.

Now, I understand that you can't always remember everything when asked (I don't either!!), but I just wanted the broad outline of what it taught.

Also, I think a copy of PIA will do wonders for you. It is very good. :)

asy :D

[Economic]

I found this article in the Australian Financial Review dated December 7 2002.

This is a little more evidence to be cautious. Lucky for me I was.

Deposit bonds lure unwary: Macfarlane

Reserve Bank of Australia governor Ian Macfarlane warned on Friday that investors using deposit bonds to buy units or apartments might face losses when they eventually took possession of their property.

Mr Macfarlane said deposit bonds - which are sold by insurance companies - made it easy for people to enter the market by buying off the plan with a much smaller outlay.

"Now you can go along to an insurance company [and] buy a deposit bond for hundreds of dollars, not thousands of dollars [for a deposit]," he said.

"The insurance company will then guarantee the developer that the deposit will be paid upon completion and you just sit back and wait for 18 months. The cost to you is negligible.

"Then suddenly in 18 months, when you take possession, then you've got to get the full finance and that may be a point you start having regrets about what you did 18 months ago, which was so easy to do."

Mr Macfarlane's renewed concern about an overheated investment property market came at Friday's semi-annual appearance by the RBA before the House of Representatives economics committee.

It followed data showing strong growth in building approvals for higher-density property in October and continued growth in house prices in the September quarter.

Deposit bonds have become popular among property investors because they enable people to delay putting down a 10 per cent deposit.

The deposit bonds, which cost about $700, effectively let people enter the market without a deposit.

Mr Macfarlane said the reduced amount needed to enter the property market was one of the reasons for the housing boom.

"People can actually make these investments on almost 100 per cent gearing," he told the committee.

"It is so accessible that people on very modest incomes are being persuaded by the big seminars that are run by the property development companies that they can get rich too by buying these apartments.

"If the investor is quite wealthy and has their own home with a lot of equity in their own home, they just tighten their belt.

"If something happens, if they lose their job or there's a divorce, then they actually could conceivably realise quite a big loss."

Earlier this year the RBA forecast that the housing market would cool this year. However, after recent strong data, it now expects that the market will not slow until 2003.

Figures released this week showed building approvals surged by a record 69 per cent in October.

Mr Macfarlane described the latest approvals data as "bizarre" and said it was unlikely most of the new projects would be built because some developers were already shelving projects.

Regards
Eco....

[Rolf Latham]

Hi Economic


On a slight tangent, a client I sat with last nite said I want to fix all my loans because Mr McFarlane said that the RBA would raise rates by up to 2 % over the next 18 months.

I tend to ignore the media where possible so this may be what the RBA governer said.

I cant help ponder what liability lies where for someone that fixes on such advice and in the event "loses" tens of thousands of dollars.

One would argue that a "reasonable" person would assume you could not get a better assessment on interest rate moves than from the RBA itself.

ta

Rolf

[Sim]

Originally posted by Aceyducey
I think you're reading too much into my message (and possibly others)

I deliberately didn't name posts - it was a general comment about what has happened in the past with NII posts. If people don't like the NII and the way it operates - then sure, post your concerns (like Economic did) - but people in general tend to get a little hysterical about the whole thing.

Originally posted by Aceyducey
Personally I have no opinion on the NII, except the poor impression I get from anonymous posters, which I get on ANY TOPIC on which there are anonymous posters.

Ahh... but are you not anonymous too Aceyducey ? How do people know who you are ?

As to the post in question - an opinion was offered, and people are entitled to their opinion, especially if they are able to express it in a calm and rational manner.

I am not defending the NII - other than their rights to free speech. Economic posted a good warning about his experiences with the organisation. If other people have concerns, then feel free to express them. But please also let people express their positive experiences or opinions. People should be able to weigh up the pros and cons for themselves.

There have been some very good posts in this thread - please don't think I am criticising everyone here.

Let us keep the hysteria and the "let's bag it because everyone else does" to a minimum folks.

[Bill.L]

Ok Sim

As the first of the attackers of "date" my comments may have been taken as a little negative. However this thread was started by economic with a detailed personal example of his(or her) negative experience with the marketing style of NII.

"date" has effectively attacked economic by totally disagreeing with economic with enormously helpful comments like "bloody great".

I have no personal experience of NII, but I do have a problem with ALL the so called guru's who run expensive courses, be it property,shares, commodities, or motivational!!

The VERY best sources of information have always been practical books by people who have found a method that is successful for themselves and been prepared to share. Jan's books are perfect examples.

This forum with the knowledge that resides amongst it's contributors is definately worth much more than any course, no matter how much it costs.I dips my lid to you all.;)

My original questions to "date" stand. Please give us some EXAMPLES of how the NII course helped you??

sorry for the long post

Bye

[Aceyducey]

Hey Sim,

If someone wants to know who I am they can simply ask.

I only use a nick because most people do.

And there is a difference between someone who uses a nick, posts regularly & provides a working email address and someone who posts once using the date as their nick and has an email address that bounces (I've tried it).

Cheers,

Craig Thomler
(partner of Jas)

[Sim]

Originally posted by Bill.L
The VERY best sources of information have always been practical books by people who have found a method that is successful for themselves and been prepared to share. Jan's books are perfect examples.

The VERY best sources IN YOUR OPINION ! :p

Originally posted by Bill.L
My original questions to "date" stand. Please give us some EXAMPLES of how the NII course helped you??

I would also like to see this - many of the posts in this thread have requested such information - which would add a lot of value to the discussion. 091202 ?

[091202]

NII strengths are in teaching people about due diligence, settlement terms, valuations, tenant agreements, negotiation, mezzanine, avoid using your own money, creative financial concepts, JVs and teamwork.

They are weaker at renovation strategies, adding value and don't focus much on stuff for the average joe. They cater more for the serious deal making/sophisticated investor you might say. But its a mix of people at all levels. Some of the most successful people have formed into groups or syndicates. Others don't apply the knowledge and waste their time.

They have good support structures with informal meetings, Q&A sessions, excellent for networking, great opportunity to learn from like minded people. How do you quantify having an informal Q&A with the chief of an (independant) major finance broking organisation? It has a club vibe that I personally find very appealing.

Agreed that books may offer better 'bang for the buck' but, it's sometimes not what you know but who. It's sorta the next level up from books if you are super committed to bigger property deals and networking.

[Mark Laszczuk]

091202,
Based on what you have posted, it seems that the course is clearly not for beginners. As you yourself mentioned, most of the stuff is not for the average joe. I don't know if you are able to answer this question, but I will ask it anyway.
"Why, if the course is not for beginners (I assume) does the NII direct it's marketing campaign at those with little or no experience in real estate investing?"
I'm not trying to be a smartarse or anything, this is a genuine question.

Mark
'no hat, some cattle'

P.S. You still haven't told us what the course has given to you personally.

[asy]

Thanks for that date!

I understand what you said, and appreciate you posting it, but I still wonder if it's worth the money.

Don't misunderstand me, I understand that sometimes you (the generic 'you', not you personally :) ) need to be shown something in a 'course' manner, before it sinks in, and to make it workable, but having read through what you feel you got from the course, I don't think there's anything there that couldn't have been learned here on the forum, as an example.

This comment is irrelevant as to whether it is NII or anyone else, so don't think I am attacking you or NII... I'm not...

Just the psychology of the "Packaged_info_for_big_bucks" versus the "find it yourself" method is interesting.

I have often said, there are only two types of currency, money and time... I guess in your case you invested money... You could have invested your time and found out the same info... I just find it really interesting to find out what others do and think about this...

asy :D

[Bill.L]

Sim

Yes It's my opinion that books are useful. But if I REALLY tried hard I think I could find one or two others on this forum who found Jan's books of benefit.:p
Also Sim, I think that the contribution you make to this forum is fantastic in both time and effort and I ernestly thank you for it, however it doesn't mean we can't have a difference of opinion. Now at the risk of being deleted ......



"date" as you have obviously been monitoring this thread please answer some basic questions about how this course helped you. What you have written says many glowing things about NII but does little in the way of practicalities. You claim that (spending the amount of a deposit of an IP) on this course has helped you. So tell us where it got YOU.

This is now the third time I have asked this and your replies are very scant in any detail. I don't particularly care which mover or shaker you may have met at NII, the advice on this forum is definately more bang for buck than spending 15K.

Again I ask, What did you invest in and how did it perform as a consequence of your involvement with NII??

Please explain???


bye

[michaelg]

Hi,

Okay, you want to hear it facts from one that turned to the darkside, from someone you know?

Right, I did the HK Mastery course when it was $3k, I've also spent money on Mcknight courses, Brad Sugar and Option trading courses, in leiu of books and mentors, seminar's help "jump start" my quest for information.

Anyway the basics of HK, when I did it were;

1) Know thy area - if you select a very small area and know it well, then you can judge bargins when they occur.
2) Know thy tenant - target a niche tenant - cater to their whims to enable you to increase rent
3) Know thy fixtures - keep up to date with the latest trends in fixtures (appliances, lights, door handles), ideally learn to co-ordinate, and they shop for "cheaper" copies of such.
4) Understand deposit bonds - this is to learn to use little money down
5) Split the contracts - if you can get the developer to split the contract into house&land you can save $$$ on stamp duty.
6) Negotiate discounts via bulk buy - this I think was the big play and cornerstone of the technique. Forming "buying groups" to acquire multiple properties.

My mind did open to new ideas and ways of thinking, but...

I was not comfortable with;

a) Buying property at those price ranges $300k+
b) The speculation involved in needing to onsell
c) The servicing level risks
d) The time needed for research (I live out west, and market was East Syd) - too much of a commute

I'd still attend a seminar if I thought to topic was interesting, I'm the kind of person that needs motivation every now and then, but if you can find a mentor, then you're infront too. Books are good for learning terms, but for some, converting text into actual working examples can be hard. People absorb information differently (visually, auditory, touch). This forum is good for auditory, but lacks visual aids, whereas people who's strongest sense is touch would need a hands-on workshop to understand.

This is where investment groups and meetings help.

Maybe when Michael Croft runs a course, he could do a hands-on workshop, eg he sets up a syndicate, the "seminar fees" go into that, that buys a house - and everyone works on the project learning and taking turns doing stuff, then at the end of the course the house is sold.

A pass/fail mark is whether there's a profit or a loss :P

Just a thought.

Michael G

[Aceyducey]

Thanks for your posts michaelg & 091202, they give me a clearer picture of what the NII are about & what type of material to expect.

Has anyone thought of setting up a site listing all the different Investment Seminar/Course/Materials providers in Oz where the people running them can give their spiel, they can be sorted by area/skill level/knowledge required to do the courses & 'graduates' can give their views on the programmes?

Open to abuse I know, but would still be handy to allow newbies to quickly get a level of assessment about what's on offer. I've seen a lot of posts lately from people asking whether a specific course or book/writer is any good.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[geoffw]

AceyDucey,

Anyone posting negative details about a course opens themselves to litigation for less than favourable opinions posted.

Two (at least) members of the old forum have been threatened with lawsuits for comments in the forum. In fact, I think one just posted out emails after investigating property marketing companies.

[Sunstone]

Dear Geoff,

Personally I feel that the whole issue of lawsuits is well overdone and a whole scare tactic.

Should one person be scared for writing or doing anything simply because they are scared whether someone will sue them at sometime in their lives? (Should you be scared by something that you have written in one of your 471 (so far) posts 20 years in the future?)

On a website how on earth would you be tracked?

-Through the persons name?
-Through the persons e-mail?

Free speech is encouraged.

Saying that you will "SUE" someone is the biggest false scare tactic in the book but a good tool for negotiating with someone who doesn't have a lawyer.

Opinions should be and MUST be encouraged on this forum. Otherwise how will we learn if we are all just sheep and have exactly the same opinion?

That is one of the great parts of this forum. If we take it away we take away a huge part and benefit of this resource -interactivity and free speech.

Cheers,

Sunstone.

[geoffw]

Sunstone,

I agree that it's not a very good thing not to be able to express an opinion.

The two people I mentioned in the previous incarnation of the forum both had very real threats of lawsuits. It was not just a vague thing. Both, from memory, had to withdraw from posting on on anything for some time (at minimum).

As much as we don't like it, "free speech" isn't really as free any more.

I agree that opinions must be encouraged. And I have stuck my neck out big time in offering opinions.

But, it is still a public place. And, if I say something bad about a company or a service, then that company may choose to sue me. If I really do damage their reputation, unfairly, then perhaps it is in their right to claim that I have caused them economic damage. Though I hope it is not "unfairly". Though that might not even be a defence.

However, I would hope that if I offered an opinion about a broad thing, and not a company specific thing, then I would at least be covered by some sort of site disclaimer. I understand there is something somewhere on the site that mentions something about "advice is personal opinion only". It is something I have raised privately with a Mod a while back, but I have not heard back. That disappoints me.

A slight diversion back to the original thread. Michael G's post, to me, is a very good example of a good balanced post. He gives positives, and negatives. He's done the course, and is not giving any hype. It gives the sort of information which others were looking for from "date". Though there is still the possibility that the course material has been updated- and that MG gets into trouble for misrepresenting. Or even for revealing state secrets (like the Canadian minister who called Dubya a moron :D )

[Sunstone]

Dear Geoff,

Part of my reason for posting on this was that Economic and I had detailed discussion with regards to whether he posted.

I take my hat off to him for having the courage to post information which will help other people on this forum and perhaps get NII to rethink it's marketing tactics.

Property is not bad -but the way it is sold and marketed can be. An alternative viewpoint is that perhaps they (NII) need to relook at what their "customers" really need and can be benefited by and also the price tag etc etc etc.

I stand by what I say with regards to him being safe legally.

Again if all of us were so scared to post due to legal repercussions (which are impossible to take place without any identification) we would not have had the benefit of "Economic's" post and the forum would have been poorer because of it.

These types of posts should NOT be discouraged. However it alerts ourselves to how much personal -easily identifiable information we may permanently post.

On another side Aceyducey does have an interesting suggestion about a list of property investment courses.

Cheers,

Sunstone.

[geoffw]

Sunstone,

I totally agree that what Economic posted is valuable- and my hat also goes off to him. It was also a good balanced post, and very well done.

My caution comes about, not from how I would like things to be, but from how things have happened in the past.

The two threads from the old forum make very interesting reading on the subject:

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=20549#post20549

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3666

[XBenX]

no one should feel they need to censor _anything_ that they post

Just PM me your message and Ill post it for you if you wish :P

People can go ahead and _try_ to censor - but 99% of the time the ones that attempt to censor you are the ones that have something to hide - hence if you state the truth (and can prove it) you will have no problems

edit : removed lame joke :)

[Sunstone]

Dear Geoff,

Your posting of the previous links is certainly useful.

However despite all of Gail H's discussion the point is that if you choose not to be identified, then on this forum all discussion on risk becomes irrelevant.

If you post your real name, phone number, address etc etc then yes you could be tracked down if someone was terribly enthusiastic or vindictive...............

Do we know more what happened in the Harvard Securities matter? No.

Anyway the simple point is that whilst lawyers exist, (And yes I do have my own.) the world should not be run from a fear perspective.

Like XBenX said let's look at the positive side of this so that it can be of benefit for all on this forum and not a discouragement to post.

Cheers,

Sunstone.

[Mark Laszczuk]

Sunstone,
I think XBenX (are you straight edge Ben?) put it perfectly when he said: "if you state the truth (and can prove it) you will have no problems". The problem is not in the posting, but the ability to prove what you are posting is able to be proven.
The reality is that if you post something that can be considered libelous, even if it is the truth, but you can't prove that it is, then you can get yourself in serious trouble. That's the facts. I don't like it anymore than you, but the laws are there to protect the public from having reputations damaged by lies.
Sure, you could post anonymously, but that doesn't really help. Cause if the group/person you target can't find you, then they can just as easily threaten to sue the Somers' for having libelous slander on their forum. Do we really want to put them in that position?
Look, I'm all for exposing shonky practices and people, but you also need to understand that it is very easy to get on a forum like this and post pure lies about anyone you want. Human nature dictates that there will be more than enough people all too eager to believe whatever you post. Then they go and tell their friends and their friends tell their friends, etc. etc.
The large majority of people in our society like nothing more than to gossip and tear others down, I'm sure you would agree. And this is part of the reason why libel laws are in place.

Mark
'no hat, some cattle'

[geoffw]

Something else I came across in the archives- it would seem as if I can just give advice and be sued-

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=27914#post27914

Which leaves me way open.

However, having posted those previous links, it would seem as if many other companies have been mentioned in an unfavourable light in the forum, and nothing has happened as a result of the postings.

Over the years, in the forum, there have been a lot of positives and negatives about the Investor's Club.

The founder of the club, Kevin Young, did actually post on the forum in rebuttal to things which had been said.

Whatever I think of the club, I respect the use of the forum in that way, rather than in the threat to sue.

[XBenX]

yup mark, straight edge

im suprised ppl on the forum know about that kind of thing :)

[Ross Sneddon]

Hi

Sometimes people who work in say this industry of Property, if we look at it in the widest sense can find themselves in a difficult position.

Lets say they are a Real Estate Agent, a Mortgage Broker or a builder or what ever and happen to be at a weekend Bar-b-que having a chat with other like minded people. Not official, all casual, just people meeting in a friendly manner and enjoying the company, a few drinks and a burnt sausage.

Over those few beers and the cooking of the snags, one of the professionals casually says, "I think that such and such a development is going to be a good one. I would put my money there". Just casually. He is not trying a sales pitch.

And someone else in the group at the Barbie then later privately invests funds in that venture and two years go by and the development goes belly up.

The "investor" can come back and sue the "professional" for loss of assets. Even knowing that the advice was given over a weekend Barbie and the offeror of the casual advice was mildly affected by a couple of drinks.

The advice doesn't have to be in a business situation.

Professional Indemnity Insurance costs money each year and is expensive, but the litigant attitude of some people is sometimes hard to fathom.

As professionals, we are all open to being sued on this forum. Perhaps we all need to consider a pseudonym if that works.

Regards

Ross

[New Dad Soon]

Hi All,

Just thought I'd point out a couple of things in support of the moderator comments about the replies to Economic.

Firstly, posting the NII experience of Economic would be very considered. And some of the replies were supportive, encouraging and sounded mature.

It is however, only an opinion, (and one that Economic has a right to post).

Another point of view could be that becoming a full/part time property investor is like starting a business. How many people out there have the courage to go out and work for themselves full time and take that chance? We all know that many people never could due to FEAR of FAILURE.

Were you to ever start a business, you would need start up capital or money to buy a franchise. In other words, you cannot just begin without a financial commitment of some sort.

How large that commitment is, depends upon the scale and value of your intent.

Now, if you want to just buy two or three properties and live happily ever after, then there are plenty of books to guide the way.

BUT....... If, like most of us, you want to leap frog the 'crowd' and get out in front, then surely you have to make a substantial commitment in order to gain the knowledge. By that I mean in order to become a 'player' in the industry, whether it is property or shares, you have to gain years of knowledge/experience SOMEHOW.

Now, can you go out and do it in years yourself, or pay for it and learn quickly, apply it straight away and accelerate your earnings to pay for the education just as quickly. That depends upon the individual, and their a) ability b) motivation and c) determination

Economic is entitled to withdraw from a course as the focus/fear is upon the cost of the education, not the intent of what to actually DO with it, and I believe any other decision would be wrong.

This is no different to being concerned or having 'buyers remorse' if you had just purchased a $250k book shop ( I have a friend who did this), and realised the enormity of the undertaking.

I was dismayed to see that an alternative opinion offered was attacked and proof of legitimacy demanded like a pack of wolves.

Why then, do the forumites attack someone who supports an opposing point of view? (and I note that some of the active regulars refrained)

eg Give us some solid information to go on, for example how you have personally used this great information to further your property investment. Location of properties, price paid, yield expected, cap growth, etc. (deleted the personal stuff)

You have no right to demand any person to provide details as proof. There are some people offering opinions in this forum, who do not even OWN an IP.

Some time ago, my friend researched a large number of franchise businesses. Curiously, the point of view is not dissimilar

1) The seminar is the initial soft sell. (So was the 'Franchise Expo' she attended)
2) The consultation is the hard sell. (The 'Interview' with the company trainer, followed by the 'tour' of the head office)
3) $15K is an excessive amount of money to be paying for a course. It is actually $20K by the time you pay off the interest over 4 years @ $100/week. ($250,000 inc stock is a lot of money to buy a job when you pay it off over 10 years)
4) If NII was so concerned in educating people, then what is the reason for charging astronomical prices? ($250k for a franchise? why not go and set up your own book shop with lots of stock? ANSWER... because the business model has been proven to WORK)
5) Typically property CAN and WILL go down at times. It just so happens that we have seen an excessively long growth in real estate. (Typically, not everyone likes to read, it just so happens that Australians consume more magazines per capita than just about any other nation)

There are alternative points of view to EVERYTHING. That is what makes life so interesting.

Personally, I have attended MANY courses (inc HK) and I got something out of ALL of them. I now invest FULL TIME.

Until then, I wouldn't have had the b***s to buy a $1.1mil block of t/houses with $1, or a block of apartments at $90k below VAL, or three developments with DEP BONDS and so on.

So before you go harrassing someone else, remember, it is an arrogant person who says they can learn no more, because no matter how much you know, there is always somone you can learn from.

[Kevmeister]

NewDadSoon:

I think you make some very good points, but I think the following should be said:

1. I don't recall anyone criticising Economic for his open and honest appraisal. The criticisms were levelled against 'Date', whose first (and possibly only) posts were taken by some people as possibly unsubstantiated and/or unbalanced praise for HK.

2. I don't think you can fairly compare a HK course with a franchise. HK offers nothing but information, well perhaps a self-help network. If all a franchise offered was information, would you pay $250K for it? I don't think so. Most franchisees are investing in a franchise on the strength of the franchise itself (ie. it's name, a'la McDonalds, Baker's Delight, Subway, whatever), not the information.

3. In some cases these franchises are not proven to work, and this is no different possibly to HK's information. Sometimes buying a franchise amounts to nothing more than "buying a job". Franchises are no more a "guaranteed" way to become a millionaire than investing in property using HK's methods. As a franchisee, you may end up with a lemon in terms of an outlet's location. As a property investor, you may end up with a lemon in terms of a property's location, or physical problems with the property itself.

4. The point is that in either case additional due diligence is required on the part of the buyer. HK merely equips his students with enough information to hopefully make an astute decision.

I personally have a neutral attitude towards HK. But when I see the cost of his course compared to other "benchmarks" like a University course, it is *very* expensive.

[Sim]

Originally posted by Kevmeister
But when I see the cost of his course compared to other "benchmarks" like a University course, it is *very* expensive.

This is not really an apples for apples type of comparison. In many areas you will see increasing prices as the level of speciality increases.

For example, you could get a 1 hour generic overview of some particular software technology for less than $50 ($50ph), or you can go to a detailed 1 day seminar for about $500 ($62.50ph), or you can go to a deeply technical hands-on class for 2 days for about $2000 ($125ph), or you can get my time one-on-one for something around $250ph.

Or you could get all of the information for free on the 'net ! - that is if you are prepared to do the work to find it and are happy about not having someone to explain it all to you.

See what I mean ?

[asy]

Originally posted by Sim
Or you could get all of the information for free on the 'net ! - that is if you are prepared to do the work to find it and are happy about not having someone to explain it all to you.


Well said, Sim...

goes back to my theory of two types of currency... Time and money...

and NDS, just for your (and anyone else who wants to know's) information, I do not currently own ANY property, IP or PPOR. Just in case that makes the information I try to give out any less valuable, then I apologise. :)

asy :D

[Jamie]

Hi asy,

I can only speak for myself, but I think the information that you share is invaluable and Im glad you take the time to share it. I believe your personal investment situation is irrelevant.

Your apology is NOT ACCEPTED!

Jamie. :p

[asy]

Thanks Jamie.. :)

asy :D

[Kevmeister]

I second Jamie!

[Ross Sneddon]

Hi asy

I have followed many of your posts and threads on this forum and respect your comments enormously. You have been free with them all, no strings attached and they are accurate and well thought out. I agree with others, "No apology is necessary".

I have been to seminars and heard speakers spruiking on about how clever they are in property investment.

Many use the reasoning of how many properties they claim to have bought and sold as proof of their guru status. They claim hundreds of properties, thousands of deals and millions of dollars and now own dozens more themselves. They are experts, you ask them and they will tell you so. They claim this as proof.

I attended one seminar not so long ago where the speaker boasted how he could teach you, for a substantial fee, how to do it yourself.

He claimed, "Only last week I bought 45 units and last month I purchased over 200 properties", or something like that.

In reality he MAY have paid the insurance premium for a number of Deposit Bonds. But that is not buying property, no settlement took place. Me thinks they speak with forked tongues.

There is nothing wrong with using Deposit Bonds or purchasing more than one property at a time but in the numbers that these people claim, I have my doubts.

Having many properties or few or none at all at this present time is not the important issue. It is the knowledge and the giving of that knowledge as advice that is important. Thankyou asy.

Then I was always a knockover for a redhead.

Regards

Ross

[Bill.L]

I agree with Jamie, and would also add that other forumites who may not have IP,s like Kevmeister, and Mark NHSC, are valueable contributors.

Newdadsoon
I was about to let that one go through to the keeper, but I just had to have a nibble outside the offstump.
My original objection to the reply of "date" was that he didn't tell us anything, he advertised the course.
"Economic" had gone into detail about his experience which was negative, but he backed it up.
The courses run by some of the self professed guru's that cost many thousands of dollars usually end up being a total waste of money. I'm talking property, shares and commodities here. I know of people who spent $10,000 on a weekend commodities course only to find that the info was very basic, of no practical use and advertised heavily the future $5000 refresher courses!! No it was not me.

Going to cheaper courses/talks like Jan's seminars or Steve Navra's weekend would be informative, cost effective, and motivational. You then have plenty of money left over to buy as many books on IP's as you need for further information/motivation.

bye

[mustapha]

I wen't to the NII seminar about one month ago. I found out about the seminar from a door knocker who was offering free tickets. I am new to property investment so I thought that it couldn't hurt for me to see what the deal was.
The seminar basically consisted of:
* Success stories of ordinary people who have done the course and now have many properties
* Warnings about 98% of people not being able to support themselves in retirement
* Asking audience to establish high goals (i.e what would you do if you didn't have to work?) and then asking "Can his be achieved on your current lifestyle?"
* Brief descriptions of strategies such as mezzanine, deposit bonds, buying off the plan etc.

THere was actually very little information on the details of the course (costs, duration etc.). At the end you could register your interest in a free consultation (again it couldn't hurt) to discuss how NII methods can be applied to my situation.

The first half of the consultation involved again setting goals and describing my financial situation and how I couldn't afford to retire. THe consultant then glossed over the NII methods and how I could make money with low risk easily.

It wasn't until the last 15 mins of the consulation that I was told that the course costs were: $695 sign-on + 95$ per week for 4 years (all up approx $15,000) or $13,000 up front. The most alarming thing for me was that they wanted me to pay the sign on fee on that night. I don't know how people can turn up to a consultation and decide on the spot to spend $695. The justification for the fee was that you would make $15,000 with your first property in less than 6 months.

Other things that had me worried were:
*"We only put highly motivated people through the course. Are you willing to extend yourself out of the comfort zone or are you going to let your chance slip. You seem like a motivated person because you have come this far". The people who were at the course were picked off the street. This same thing would have been repeated to all of the other people who attended the consultation.
* The lack of any documentation of the specific details of the course (not the glossy brochure with the single mum on $25,000 who now owns $1 million in property). I did ask but there was nothing available for a $15,000 dollar course.
* He left to go for a drink for 5-10 mins. I thought that it was odd for a drink to take that long when a possible client was waiting and that he was probably getting advise on what to tell me.

I told the consultant that I would think about it after I did a little bit of research. He questioned where I would be able to find this info as most of the people who advise against the course could likely be people who don't own any property. I replied that I could find info on the internet, friends, family etc. (I wish I knew about this forum then). I asked if I could speak to any people who were doing the course and he suggested that I should attend a meeting that they were having on the weekend to speak to participants.

The next day I watched ACA and the HK story so I didn't bother attending the meeting. I am glad that I attended the seminar and consultation as the grim retirement details did give me the will to look into property investment rather than relying on super. I may have missed a great opportunity but listening to other comments on here, I think I made the sensible decision.

[Lily House]

Good on you mustapha - thanks for sharing.

Good Luck
Lily

[Tibor]

Interesting thread, differing opinions.

I've also done some of the seminar professionals' courses when they were rather affordable. I also read lost of books from the same as well as other people. I have purchased a couple of properties using some of the advice I was given by the books and the people.

After all my opinion is ;

The only seminar where I was not only given some excellent ideas
but real solutions was the $289 (I only paid $149 for it) Steve Navra seminar. He is obviously not in the seminar game.

While I highly respect all the other seminar runners (they have already achieved what I am aspriring to achieve), and they are brilliant in their own ways, they provide a sometimes working, sometimes not working type of solutions which is definitely not suitable to everyone and any time.

Their knowledge could be gained for under $500 from books and magazines as well as frequenting forums like this and talking to other investors.

To me $7,000 is 10% deposit on a cash-flow positive property in Logan, $10,000 will include the closing cost (as well as the $500 for education) as well. Now what will help me better in the long term? Getting 3 days with Mr or Mrs Marvellous or buy a real property?

I guess its just me, but rather buy the property and let others to purchase the seminars.

Tibor

[NigelW]

Originally posted by Tibor
Interesting thread, differing opinions.

After all my opinion is ;

The only seminar where I was not only given some excellent ideas
but real solutions was the $289 (I only paid $149 for it) Steve Navra seminar. He is obviously not in the seminar game.


Tibor

Tibor

I certainly agree with you about the Navra course. But to the list of worthwhile seminars I'd have to add Geoff Doidge/Paul Eslick's.

I've done Geoff's general property seminar plus the renovation one. Admittedly I did them a while ago when they were still below the $1k mark (from memory). So at that price they did represent REAL value. Whilst I don't specifically use many of Geoff & Paul's reno techniques, he did open my eyes to the possibility of kick starting the capital gain and cashflow through renovation. And that has been a VERY profitable relevation for me in the years that have followed...

I guess as they say - "the teacher arrives when the student is ready"

I should add though, that I stick by my rule of education spending - you shouldn't spend more than 1%-3% of your net worth on education. Particularly when there's this forum and a whole range of $29.95 books which get you into a guru's head at the local bookstore!!!!

Cheers
N.