Neil Jenman

[GeeVee]

Does anyone know much about Andrea Sutton who was sort of featured on todaytonight last week? The story started out about her and her 35 properties {cashflow positive} and ended up being shanghied by Neil Bloody Jenman. There may have been something to learn.

[asy]

I saw that report,

didn't understand what in hell it was about...

As you say, it started out interesting, and I would have liked to have known more about how she did it, and her in general.

But yep, there was flaming idiot Jenman, yet again, spouting bullshyt.

I think this story deserves the "Worst editing EVER" award...

I really have no idea what it's point was.

However, a transcript can be found here (http://todaytonight.com.au/stories/367391.html) .

I'm not sure if this was another attempt at media-fear-mongering trying to 'burst-the-psychological-bubble"

Who knows?

Aparrently not channel 7.

asy :D

[Sim]

Jenman is a sensationalist.

Current affairs programs gain ignorant eyeballs from sensational stories.

The two are made for each other.

Sensationalists rarely speak logically or objectively, even if some of what they say is quite valid.

[Macca]

LOL...........

Sack the editor of that story, what a mess!!

The topics quite simply don't link together.

It starts out as a positive story explaining how people can better themselves and ends up as a rave at unscrupulous shysters.

If they had continued the first topic to its logical conclusion and explained about due diligence, Mr Jenman could then have confirmed the need for dd.

Too easy.

Macca :)

[brains]

Hi,

Why the uninamous critcism of Neil Jenman ?

He is an intelligent, erudite and honest man trying to save people from being ripped off, which is no bad thing.

Just because he has the bravery to have a differing view of real estate than everyone else, he is bellittled and criticised endlessly.

He is an innovator and innovators ALWAYS succeed, as he is now.

I have spoken to him a few times on the phone and he is neither
a "sensationalist" or "a flaming idiot".

To paraphrase the TDT story:

"Author and renegade real estate agent, Neil Jenman, is one of the most feared men in the industry"


I can read a lot of fear in this thread.

[paulzag]

Originally posted by brains
Neil Jenman is an innovator and innovators ALWAYS succeed, as he is now.

Ummm Next Computer? Wang? Sinclair? Sausage Software? Cray Computers? Sarich Orbital? DEC? All innovators, no survivors. Successful only depending on your metrics.


Originally posted by bundy1964
"Ms Sutton's passion for real estate is shared by her daughter Elira, 12, who is already a landlord of three properties."

Who would give a 12 year old a loan to buy a property?

:confused:

Umm My eight-year-old daughter owns shares with money I loaned her. Technically, her trust owns them.

When she decides to own an IP I'll guarantee the loan. When someone owns 35 Properties the rest of the family notices. Dinner table conversations become very educational.

Musicians' children often become musicians because it is a family value.

Dynastic wealth comes from the same place -- if combined with a few enterprising robber-baron ancestors ;)


Regards

Paul Zag
Dreamspinner

[brains]

"Ummm Next Computer? Wang? Sinclair? Sausage Software? Cray Computers? Sarich Orbital? DEC? All innovators, no survivors. Successful only depending on your metrics."

Are they just failed businesses or failed innovators? You could type a list all day of failed businesses, especially ones as successfull as your list above.

Innovation incurs risk, but great reward.

Generally, followers rarely succeed to the same level as innovators (but have less risk) and people who criticise innovators rarely succeed as well.

[Sim]

Originally posted by brains
Generally, followers rarely succeed to the same level as innovators

This is not the way I see it. Innovators come up with the idea - and then the established and well financed people buy the idea - innovation by acquisition !

On the flip side... Microsoft are an example of one of the best "following" companies in the IT industry - they rarely come up with an original idea - instead they take someone elses concept, re-work it and make it work. They are the masters at this.

This is why you never buy a release 1 Microsoft product... release 3 is the one which will actually work !

Counter example of course would be Apple - but then they do have a potted history of innovation through plagiarism as well as some genuine innovation.

Innovation is all well and good - so long as it is bounded in good practice and an ability to deliver. Too many people spend so long trying to come up with the better mouse trap, when if they had simply improved the delivery and management of the existing traps they had, they would have caught many more mice in the meantime !

[Aceyducey]

That was indeed a very strange story - changed halfway through from a success story to a warning....Overall it seems to me to be saying 'don't do what this person has done cause you'll get burnt'.

Tall poppy syndrome perhaps? - Or just good TV to create a controversy where there was a clear and unambiguous message.

If we're going to get Ms Sutton to a Freestylers, how about also getting Neil Jenman - it would be very interesting to hear him talk about property investment without the 'watch out for RE Agents' stuff. I'm sure he must have something else to say.....

The media has really started to pick up on him as a scaremonger - he debated the head of the VIC REI on ABC radio a few weeks back as well.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[brains]

Sim, point taken, but:

Innovation by acquisition is an oxymoron the way i see it.

I was sort of referring to people or companies who operate in an old/established industry and innovate the way they do things to be successful and get a jump on their opposition who do things as they have always been done.

And nearly every company with a "first to market" product or service will benefit while competitors are catching up.



"bounded in good practice and an ability to deliver. Too many people spend so long trying to come up with the better mouse trap, when if they had simply improved the delivery and management of the existing traps they had, they would have caught many more mice in the meantime"

Companies/individuals will not succeed if they do operate the way you describe above, regardless of wether they are innovative or not.

Neil Jenman didnt invent real estate he just trying to change the way things are done and make it more transparent and honest.

Microsoft dont generally take someones idea, they buy the company to get the technology/intellectual property, and if they cant buy the company they will unscrupulously screw the company anyway they can till they have market domination, hence their court case. They are truly the evil empire.

(even tho i use their products...haha)

[asy]

Originally posted by Aceyducey

The media has really started to pick up on him as a scaremonger - he debated the head of the VIC REI on ABC radio a few weeks back as well.



Oooh!!

What was it about??

Who won???

I looked for it on the ABC search engine, but couldn't find it. The closest I came was: this report (http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/s323652.htm) But this is the president of the REI Aust, not VIC, so I don't think it's it. Can you have a look? Thanks :)

asy :D

[Aceyducey]

Asy,

I unfortunately only heard about it second hand.

It was at evening, probably on Radio National.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[brains]

He has released a book recently and has been in the media spotlight quite a bit lately (debating everyone:-), obviously promoting his book, which went straight to bestseller lists by the way.

The Real Estate Institutes of all states are like the Law Society, a watchdog of the industry policed by members of the same industry. Its like complaining to your mother in law about your wife.......what a joke..........


The QLD government is soon going to replace the law society as watchdog over lawyers (with some type of government dept.) as it has just become a joke...and the states should do the same with their respective R.E.I.s

[davids]

Hi All,

I personally find Neil Jenman to be a very interesting haracter. If you have ever dealt with a Jenman real estate office you know that they take a different approach than mosts R/E's.

I really like to buy from them but would never sell through them.

regards

Davids

[Aceyducey]

We've taken the opposite view - we'd be happy to sell at least our PPOR through Jenman because they are good at maximising the sales price.

However we would not buy through Jenman agents because they negotiate too well on behalf of the Seller....

Give us a run-of-the-mill starving RE Agent who wants a quick sale and will pressure the vendor to accept an OK offer any day (and we don't even have to pay them the commission).

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[davids]

Hi Ace,

The Jenman system is constantly trying to employ sales staff that are not from the the 'industry' so as they can train them in there own style.

What I have found is that many of these sales people are left wanting in many areas of negotiation. Many that I have dealt with are only new to the business and fail to meet the challenge when asked questions relating to defects etc. The one big plus I must admit is that every one I have dealt with is extremely honest and upfront.

[asy]

Originally posted by brains
The Real Estate Institutes of all states are like the Law Society, a watchdog of the industry policed by members of the same industry. Its like complaining to your mother in law about your wife.......what a joke..........

Sorry Brains, I think you are a little off track with this. The Real Estate Institute(s) are not a watchdog, by any means.

They are a member body, same as any other membership society. From the REIQ Website (http://www.reiq.com.au/aboutUs/default.htm)

Formed in 1918 the Real Estate Institute of Queensland (REIQ) is the State’s peak professional association for the real estate industry and exists to support member real estate agents with information, products and resources that complement their business practices, which in turn ensures professional service for the public.

The "Watchdog" for the Real Estate industry is the relevant state Office of Fair Trading. This is the body who licenses us, and also the correct place to voice any problems you have with an agent.
I agree that the REI in each state also takes public complaints about members, and has a mediation arm who will assist in problems between the public and the Member. But don't misunderstand their function.

hope this helps clear things up :)

asy :D

[brains]

davids,

Thats a fair point but you'll find the real estate industry is absolutely full of people from other proffesions/trades/whatevers.

The Jenman way of thinking is that these people are indoctrinated in the traditional (some might say dishonest) ways of the real estate industry and so on and on it goes.

The reason they like to get fresh people is to get them in the Jenman way (some might say honest) as their introduction to the real estate industry.

You have just got to admire the guy and what he has done, all against the odds, trying to change a whole industry and its (some might say dishonest) ways.


And asy, thanks for putting me straight on that one.

[voodoo]

I'M with you ACEYDUCEY,

I would sell through a Jenman R/E but not buy off them for the same reasonsas you.

There is a R/E here on the North Coast that operates the Jenman way, and all of there properties have high prices and are on the market for a longer time than most.

I agree they really go all out for the sellers best price.

As for Jenman, Real estate Mistakes was a very good read and it surely opened my eyes about R/E's.

[asy]

Originally posted by voodoo
There is a R/E here on the North Coast that operates the Jenman way, and all of there properties have high prices and are on the market for a longer time than most.

Interesting point Voodoo..

Irrespective of whether this is a Jenman or Other agent. (I am commenting on the theory)

I have attended listings where I have told the vendors what I believe to be the true market value of the property and they have wanted to list it at MANY thousands over this.

(Don't misunderstand me, I am not always right on price, no-one is)

But, I have for example told vendors that I believe their house would fetch $180k. They are adamant that it is worth $200k.

I always told them my 'catchup theory' and let them make their own mind up.

Sometimes we listed the property at their price, with them in the full knowledge of the situation, Sometimes we listed the property at the price I intimated, sometimes we listed it in between, and sometimes (but not often!!) another agent listed it.

My 'cathup theory' is, that irrespective of what you list the property at, the market will eventually catch up.

For instance, if the property is actually worth $180k, and it's listed for $200k, once the market catches up (which may be a month, it may be a year) the property will sell.

It's just that I believe the vendor's need to be made aware that a price higher than the market price can (not always but usually), precipitate a longer time in the market.

I would rather loose the listing than list it dishonestly. I have watched agents list high (buy the listing) and have seen disheartened vendors suffer through... (I know of one agent in an area I used to work in who's often list properties at 20 - 25k over their true value, on a 160 day contract... Thats SIX MONTHS... You can't call that a good thing...)

That being said, if the vendor wanted it listed high I would comply (so long as it's not ridiculous, like $400k on a house clearly worth $100k).

What are other ppl's thoughts on this?

asy :D

[brains]

Thats interesting because my PM (north of Brisbane) reckons a Jenman real estate that absolutely dominates the market where she is, is because they list for correct price and never buy a listing.

So the Jenman R/E properties for sale in the area are usually 5% -10% cheaper than any othe R/E properties in the area.

I have bought 10 properties in my life (im sure plenty on here have bought more) and not once did i come across a sales person from the local R/E (wherever it was at the time) that didnt buy (or attempt to) the listing and then do the conditiong thing.

If only i knew then what i know now.

In 1988 i threatened to take a R/E to court (i was 27 and didnt really have a clue what i was doing), anyway, they settled out of court before the case and the sales guy got the boot....win/win i reckon.......:-)

[Kevmeister]

Brains:

Can you (or anyone else) explain what is meant by an agent "buying a listing"? Or should I just be thinking the obvious?

Also, I'm intrigued about the litigation you had with the R/E - what happened?

Kevin.

[Andrew]

"Buying a listing" is when a RE agent quotes a higher expected price than his
competitors to make you feel good and list your property with him.

They then typically condition you down over time to the true market
rates.

Read the Neil Jenman book for some real insights into how the RE
industry works.

andy

[asy]

Originally posted by brains
Thats interesting because my PM (north of Brisbane) reckons a Jenman real estate that absolutely dominates the market where she is, is because they list for correct price and never buy a listing.

The agent I was talking about who routinely overlisted, and listed for extraordinary lengths of time was not a Jenman. :)

In the area where I worked, the local Jenman agent listed about right, if anything, a little under Market. However, they wouldn't show the house unless you went for an interview with them first, and all the people who would be on the title went to the viewing.

I tried to have a look at a house I wanted as an IP. It was in the same street I lived in at the time, and I rang the agent (A Jenman agent). She asked me who was going to buy it. I told her. She then wouldn't let me look through the property unless my Hubby came with me. I told her I knew about the house, since the agency I work for had sold it some years before, and I looked through the file, which had photos in it. I told her I had finance in place, and that I just wanted a quick look at the property, and would be in a position to make an offer on the spot.

She refused to show me the property, unless I came into their office to discuss with them whether or not I was able to afford the property, and wanted me to bring pay slips and tax returns. Oh, and my (then) Husband had to come too...

I told her it wasnt necessary, as I already had finance approval, and knew what I was doing. I just wanted to look at the house, and could I meet her there. I also tried to explain that my husband was a shift worker, and would be unable to view the house for another few weeks.

She refused, again, saying that this was the Jenman Way, and that they must protect their vendors by ensuring that any prospective purchasers were able to make an offer.

Needless to say I bought a different house from a different agent.

The house in question remained on the market for another couple of months with this agent, then they lost the listing, and someone else sold it. I don't understand how this was good for the vendor.

asy :D

[brains]

asy,

Wow what a story!! Do you think that was that particular real estate operating that way, or a Jenman method they were using.

Ive bought properties from Jenman real estates before and have never come across anything remotely like that.

In fact i enjoy buying from real esates that use the Jenman method.

Kevmeister,

Goes something roughly like this:

Buying a list is when the agent tells the vendor an inflated price that their property will sell for.

The vendor gets excited and signs the 3 month (or whatever it is)
contract.

The agent then tells prospective buyers that the house will sell for a lower figure than what he told the vendor.

Now the agent then has 3 months to condition the vendor that their house is worth less than was quoted originally (the market's changed...etc....)

They also condition the prospective buyer upwards, when the two prices are the same, they will have a sale.

I heard somewhere they actually teach sales staff this technique as part of the course, could be wrong tho.

[Sim]

I've heard several other people (women) tell pretty much the same story of Jenman agents in their area - have to bring hubby along - have to prove that you can afford to buy it.

What a load of crock !

I say we pull The_Wife out of her cage and let her loose on these particular agents - they'll soon regret suggesting such things as women not being in a position to make their own decisions !

Jenman way ? I'd be really interested to see if Jenman himself invented or enforces those particular rules - or whether his intentions have been subverted by others.

I'd be prepared to forgive if the latter, but will be out to crucify if the former ! I would be prepared to listen to him talk about it though.

[Lissy]

I have a sneaking suspicion that it's not really fair to lump all Jenman agents together and say "they all do this" or "they all don't do that". In the end you're dealing with human beings, and each agency, and indeed each agent, is going to be an individual and do things their way, even if it is within the framework of Jenman's system.
Personally I've bought 3 properties through a Jenman agency, wonderful salesperson, I certainly will buy through him again. I've never had any suggestion that I can't buy anything without hubby along, I've been treated with respect and professionalism at all times.
Totally positive experience for me.

[davids]

As apposed to the 'Jenman' system, we also have R/E that now advocate 'set sales' and the way to sell. Has anyone had any experience with these types of purchases.

davids

[brains]

Ive seen it used with houses advertised in my local paper but didnt take much notice. Whats it about?

[asy]

Hi David.

Set Sale is almost like a tender process.

An agent I went through the course with (Rob Sordello) was just starting in it when we were at Uni, and extolled it's virtues at every opportunity. I have had a look, and on the surface I like it, but I will do more research into it in the next 12 months.

This is an excerpt from his website. (http://www.successioncorp.com.au/sell_property_method.htm)

THE ‘SET SALE’ STRATEGY OBJECTIVE

The best price for any property is achieved in the first 30 days, because there is always a pool of buyers eager to look at new listings. So it is imperative that your price is right the day your property hits the market!

On countless occasions we have had an offer refused by vendors in the first 30 days simply because it was the “first offer”. The property has then sold, a considerable time later for less than the original offer.

Even more important are the offers that never eventuate, either because the property is overpriced or inadequately promoted.

The traditional strategies of “For Sale” with a set asking price and “Auction” don’t maximise the sales potential. "For Sale" misses buyers because of over-pricing and under-promotion. And while, auction achieves a good promotion and concentrates on the first 30 days, a number of people are put off the process because of the tension involved for both the seller and the buyer.


While ‘By-Negotiation' is probably the best of the traditional strategies because of price range flexibility and the lack of tension, it lacks the concentrated promotion that the auction system provides.


A new system called ‘SET SALE ’ has therefore been developed, incorporating the best of the traditional strategies.


In a ‘SET SALE’, the property is heavily promoted in the first four weeks. Buyers are informed that all offers will be considered by a preset date four weeks from the start of promotion. During that time they can either make a formal offer or register their interest. We then contact all the registered buyers two days prior to the ‘SET SALE’ date and firm their offers.


THE SYSTEM

VALUATION: A valuation by an independent licensed Valuer will be obtained on your property which will be a price guide to you. On occasions we also may use this sworn valuation to help increase an offer made by a buyer.

PRICE RANGE SELLING: There is substantial evidence to support the success of the price range selling concept. Fixed prices are killers when it comes to the sale of a property because they are always priced above the market value,and people are put off by overpricing. Also,from a set asking price you can only expect to be negotiated downwards. Price range selling sets the range in which negotiations may commence.

We attract more than twice as many people to the property because they are attracted by the bottom price (the “gotta have a look price ”),and then assume the middle. As a result there are more buyers,more offers and more competition for your property. This effectively eliminates one of the two things that can stop a home selling:removing the inhibition of price. Our experience is that if the property is placed in the recommended ‘By-Negotiation ’range the end selling price will be in the top half of the range.

PROMOTION:‘SET SALE ’offers you four times more promotion in the first four weeks than a normal agent would do in 120 days. Maximum use is made of all the very best techniques such as photo signs,display advertisements,and weekly opens,to mention a few.


THE THREE PHASES
The Promotion Phase: During this period the property gets superb and constant promotion. Buyers have two options. First of all they can place an offer and negotiate immediately. Alternately they can register their interest in which case we will contact them two days prior to the ‘SET SALE’ date and negotiate with them.
The Negotiation Phase: This is when the most intensive negotiations are expected to take place and all offers are collected.
The Under Consideration Phase: This is the period after the ‘SET SALE ’date when you can consider the offers and we can negotiate actively on your behalf.


So there it is …. the best strategy ever devised to sell property. It combines the best aspects of all the strategies,and insures you get the best chance of a successful sale within weeks of putting the property on the market.


The 30 Day Marketing Plan
Whenever a property goes on the market there exists a pool of buyers who are looking in a suburb and a price range. If the property does not sell within those first 30 days,the pool of buyers is used up and all we are left with is the trickle of new buyers who are coming onto the market.

IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT YOUR PRICE IS RIGHT THE DAY YOUR PROPERTY HITS THE MARKET. Even more important is the fact that in the first month you will get the best price because buyers will not risk losing it. In the second month,they know they can negotiate a better deal and by the third month the price really begins to drop.

The problem with the traditional fixed price method of marketing is that the property goes on the market 10% above the market price, either because sellers are terrified of under-selling,or they may have an over-inflated view of their property at times. At the very least they are going to add a negotiation buffer. On the other and, buyers look at homes priced 10 –15% below what they will eventually pay. As a result, buyers are looking up to 25¾low what vendors are asking with the traditional fixed price method.

We have developed an entirely new method of marketing a property that is having sensational results. At times,the system is bringing prices above even the vendor ’s expectations. Furthermore,the majority sell in the first 30 days,especially when coupled with one of our marketing programs.

We achieve this by using an amazingly simple system. Instead of disclosing your price,we promote it using a “Buyer Inquiry Range ”. Instead of stating your price or even your negotiating range,we say to the buyers “If you are looking in this range,then you should come and look at this property because we think it will interest you.” As a result,buyer inquiry soars,and because we are not disclosing your price we can quote the buyer as much as 15% below what we expect it to bring. At the same time we can include your dream price at 10% above the market.


You can achieve what thousands of vendors are achieving each year:
A top price in a short time with little or no hassle.



Sorry if this was a bit long, but I hope it answers your question.

By the way, this was supposed to be informative, please read past their hype... Also, I am not promoting this company, (I haven't seen Rob since we left uni,) but this was a very good explanation of the system and I thought it might help. :)


hope this helps

asy :D

[littlemaze]

Asy,

Funny you should have that experience with trying to buy from a Jenman agent....I had a very similar experience when I bought an IP about 12 months ago.

I spotted the house on a website (they now no longer advertise) and I rang them up. I told them that I would meet them at the house and go through it. The agent wouldn't let me do that and insisted that I come into the office and have a chat about what house would be right for me blah blah blah. I asked him if he was serious and that I didn't have the time to come down to their office and that there were plenty of other houses out there. I also told him that we could chat when I went to inspect the house. (Thank goodness he didn't say anything about having to have hubby there or I would've hung up!)

To his credit (looking after the vendor as I was about to walk) he relented and met me at the house. He didn't give too much away about the vendor's position. I ended up buying the house $10K under the original asking price (turned out to be a urgent relocation case).

I do agree that not all Jenman agents are the same as we are dealing with people....I developed a great rapport with this particular agent and I have recommended him to my friends who were buying in the suburbs that he looks after. He even offered to take me to dinner at the Hyatt if my friends bought a house off him (don't know what my hubby would say if I was going to dinner with a real estate agent :D )

[Macca]

Asy,

referring back to your post about the Jenman agent refusing to show you the house, in Jenman's book he says that in the event the agent won't submit offers or pass on your questions to the vendor you should drop a letter in the mail box of the vendor.

He even provides proforma letters to assist in the wording of such letters.

The tone of the letter is that your agent is not doing his/her job right so I am bypassing them.

what's that old saying...............Hit 'em with a ball of their own .... (making?)

Macca :)

[Kevin Hockey]

Last Tuesday evening I met with a young couple looking at purchasing their first investment property. The wife had recently contacted a Jenman agent and asked to inspect a property. She was told she couldn't inspect it without her husband. Needless to say she did hit the roof after explaining that her husband worked long hours, was rarely home before 7pm and if she had to wait for him it could be weeks before they saw anything. They refuse to deal with any Jenman agent.

Some time ago a young couple told me they had been refused to be shown a property because they too were not "qualified" buyers. They hadn't sold their own home, in fact they hadn't even listed it yet, so they were given the old "heave ho". I showed them 1 house, they bought it, we went to their place, put it on the market, it sold in 1 week and both properties settled 1 month later. You can read what they had to say on my website.

No doubt the industry could use a better image and a cleanup of some of its practices, I don't believe that slinging mud in hope that some of it sticks is the right way to go about it. Best left to politicians at election time. His insinuation that unless you are a Jenman agent you are unethical is unfair. I have many friends in real estate, all of them very honest and highly ethical, some of them are Jenman agents too.

It's not right to label everyone the same just to suit your cause. I wonder how much money the Jenman system generates?? I've heard many times he openly reveals stats on everyone elses profitability. I was just wondering.

www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[Mark Laszczuk]

It's interesting to me these stories about Jenman agents. I wonder if most of them are tightwads like the examples... Anyways, I just finished reading 'You can negotiate anything' by Herb Cohen, an excellent book.
One idea he has if you dispute a certain rule is, go to the next higher up. If you are continuously hitting brick walls with the schmuck you are dealing with (whether it be a Jenman agent, or the clerk at the local electrical goods store) then go to the next higher up. If you don't get a result there, go higher until you do get a result. Most likely, the owner or the boss is going to be much more flexible than robot you originally spoke to.
Remember, the fishies on the bottom of the ladder are very small and often do't have the authority to bend the rules, as they may fear that their job will be put at risk or they may get in trouble over some jerk off they have never met. However, the boss/owner sees you as a walking wallet, keen to make a purchase and they will be more willing to bend the rules a little.
Back to Jenman, if you don;t get any results from the agent, go to the principal, if they give you grief, write to Jenman himself, and don't give up until you get a reply. A little bit of noise from a lot of people turns into a rumbling earthquake. Then again, you could always go to the millions of other agents in your neighbourhood too.

Mark
'no hat, some cattle'

[geoffw]

Mark,

That's not a bad book.

Another one, by an Australian, is "You can get the best deal every time", by Wayne Berry. Her presented to a Spann thing last year, and was excellent. I'd recommend that book too.

Something else which can REALLY help you to negotiate well. And that's to have children. They know all the tricks, and you have to use a lot of weapons in return.

Now a case study in what NOT to do.

My wife works for a travel agent. She had a client who organised a trip. He spent many hours organising everything. He came and paid the deposits.

Four days later he cancelled the trip.

The agency agreed to refund $400 of the $500 deposit.

The client then spent 2 hours arguing to get the extra $100 deposit back. After the agency had spent many hours arranging trips- which he decided to cancel on a whim.

He got the deposit back. But it's a lose/win situation. He's not welcome back to the agency; the client also runs a restaurant in the same (small) complex, and he's not going to get return business either. Bad will has been created on two sides.

He got this deal, but he stands to lose a lot more than $100 in the longer term.

[TOTS]

:confused: I must say that the level at which people can be fooled is stunning! The media manipulate stories so they are news or at least attract an audiance, otheres manipulate the media to make a story or promote their products. However, people do not understand the basics behind Jenman and the reasons for his system or how it actually impacts on clients. They don't understand in general the structure of real estate and it's systems, tricks, techniques or methods. Please before you take sides get informed or find a party that REALLY is informed, unbiased and independant. People wake up agents, all agents in business are not your friends, they look after their intereests first. If young Neil, or any agent wishes, we will have a true debate and discuss the real questions like real estate industry reform and why they won't remove the hidden wealth tax they impose on clients.
Sorry but this industry sucks most of the time. I'll take my tablet now!
"Chance Favours The Prepared Mind"

[brains]

Neil Jenman has had an open offer for years to debate any leading real estate figure ( eg: the head of any state's Real Estate Institute) in this country in a public forum, ( televison) about whats wrong with the real estate industry in this country and have the public vote on the winner of the debate and the loser donating a sum of money ($5k - $10k i think) to the winners chosen charity.

How many have taken him up on his offer?...... surprise..surprise.........exactly none.

[TOTS]

:) Sorry Brains but Neil and the REIV have refused to discuss the issues with me anywhere. I have asked them many times, don't believe everything you read. Remember why Jenman is there or promoted by TV, it is to give the vaneer of balance. Jenman approved agents follow blindly what he dictates do you know why? Does it bother you to know that Jenman's fees are usually higher than most other agencies? Does it mean anything that he will not discuss his fee structure on TV or anywhere in the media? In fact he has an ally in the RE Institutes as they also charge in the same manner. This could be a very long discussion! If one of Neils boy's or girl's want to discuss it lets do it here? Just tell me when!

[suggo]

I'm sorry TOTS, what is your position(are you an agent?) in this? I'm a little lost

[TOTS]

suggo I have had my own company in Vic. and sold accross the State, I also had a company that helped people sell their own properties. I now work only with investors and privately to help bring reform to what I believe is one of the most corrupt industries I have ever come accross. I only want to see the public be informed and armed with the true knowledge about how things work and operate. I have been working for some time to expose scams, schemes, frauds and bad practices.
I have not been pushing my business here, but just participating. It's been fun, informative and enlightening. This year is already looking interesting, a flyer on my desk at the moment from Jamie McIntyre "Guru"(just ask him). He has a seminar "21st Centry Academy" comming up but his Anthony Robins impersenation will be peppered with some interesting speakers ex Henry Kaye.
I hope people are not seduced but informed before they consider these style of Flim Flam shows.
Time for another pill ... sorry don't mean to preach... just be cautious.

[Lily House]

Hi Tot,

You say you don't want to be seen as 'pushing' your 'business'. Is that why you won't tell us who you are? I am curious. If I ask you outright like this will you let us know the name of your business and more about it. Some of your posts have been quite intrigueing so please let us know more. ie what you are doing, why and how (without the mystery). Of course don't reveal more than you are comfortable doing. But if you are just being shy because you don't want to be seen as promoting yourself, then hopefully my asking outright will give you the opportunity to reveal yourself. Thanks

Lily

[TOTS]

Lily thanks, my business has been with private investors till recently (Oct. 2002) but at that time I was encouraged to make what I did public ...so in Oct/Nov. I encouraged my investors to let others know what the deal was and started "Think Outside The Square" a subscriber only investment research and knowledge pool. I hold forums, with individuals, groups and Businesses. Subscribers are indivduals or corporate.
Look I thank you for the opportunity but this is not my site, so if you want to know more please drop me a line hill@dodo.net.au or call 03 9712 0197:)
I have a passion to help rid the world of parasites... the two legged kind that pretend to be helping people. If the operations have nothing to hide then great, but if they do I want you to know it so you can make an informed choice and decision.

[suggo]

Ahh ok, a noble cause Tots!

Ok, now I understand where you are coming from, are you for or against Neil Jenmam? Do you think his system is shoddy or just the amount he asks for using it?

[TOTS]

suggo good question, it's not what he charges as much as what is hidden. His internal systems and the way his system can burn out good people. It's about money, his seminars, his sales courses, his ego and methods. I believe in most believable scams, schemes, frauds and shonksters, there is some basic truths. So it's the Scams Hidden In Truths that should be addressed.
I have nothing against Neil, he is a successful and clever business man. But he prey's on those who are i'll informed and those that are uninformed, agents, sales people and public. I have an extensive sales and marketing background, his methods and tactics are all about being on your side, being ethical and I have no doubt that his people believe it. I don't - I have interviewed his staff, his agents and their staff and his clients.
You can fool some of the people some of the time...

[suggo]

Can you give us some examples of what is shonky from these interviews? As you know it is all very well to knock things but if there aren't things that can be named and identified then it is difficult to believe those slinging the mud.

[TOTS]

suggo I know nothing of you either, call me and I'll happily discuss it, but I was asked a question and I answered it.:D If you want detail then become a client!

[suggo]

Hmm, very well. I can't say that I'm champing at the bit to become a client at the moment, I think I'll wait for your website so I can understand a bit more what exactly it is you are offering.
:confused:
For the moment I am quite impressed with the Jenman system as it does seem to have the vendors interest at heart, and a ring of truth about it! However maybe in mid Feb I will change my mind!;)

[suggo]

I have another question (if I am to be billed for the answer there is no need to reply :p ) If Jenman agenices charge alot more than others then why do these people continue to pay it and not change to another system or franchise? Must be something in it for them!?

[brains]

Im not sure Jenman real estates charge more than other real estates. (non Jenman)

In the area i have 5 IPs a Jenman office absolutely dominates sales (there ar 5 other real estate offices).

I have asked the sales guy i deal with and they charge the same as everyone in the area, otherwise the punters would go elsewhere. I think most vendors/buyers arent educated enough and dont care if a real estate office is a Jenman one. The just look at the bottom line and what its going to cost.

[TOTS]

Guy's don't get me wrong all agents are not the same, even within the Jenman camp. If you ask, you will find clients that think they are the best and others say they are the worst. If you think you got or get a good deal thats great but if you pay and don't receive value for money you'll always complain.
Ask this are the agents asking a fair fee for service?
If the operate on commission are you saying then they will only work harder if I pay a higher commission?
Buyers are not loyal and will buy the property from who ever has it. In this country we have been "conditioned" to think agents are necessary. However I don't believe they are and there are alternative's. Good ones. But each client has requirements and those need to be disscussed seperately.
No there is no fee for this...:D I do this FREE but I do charge for my otheer services...
:p It's drink time isn't it!!!!!
Good questions keep up the questions and don't trust anyone... unfortunately:rolleyes:

[Jacque]

Hi Tots,

You raise a few interesting points, in that there are many sharks out there, no doubt Jenman agents among them. I've just finished listening to Jenman's Winning In Real Estate 1993 course on tape (got it second hand from the library sale for $1!) With his tactics fresh in my mind, it does strike me that he relies on the old "flattery" technique to acquire listings. He also uses the line: "Would you trust me to sell your home for you, Mr X?", to which not many people could say NO outright to his face! I have mixed feelings about Jenman and his techniques, though I admire the way he has made the public more aware of shonky practices and auction techniques within the real estate agency. As far as agents go, I believe that, like any industry, there are good and bad apples. It's just seems like it's a longer process to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

On another note, Tots, I notice that you are interested in possible scams etc within the real estate industry. Have you ever heard or had any dealings with a NSW based company called Town and Country Land Sales? The two men running it are Victor Ollis and Brad Street. Victor has been in legal trouble before in the Qld courts, but I was just curious as to whether or not you could shed any further light on them. They advertise positive cashflow properties through all expenses paid coach tours.

[XBenX]

With Jenman I think its a case of "the lesser evil"

Edit : my typing is terrible today

[Mondie]

We had one dealing with a Jenman franchise RE in SE Melb a few years back. They failed to sell the property after 2 months, took it to another agent that sold it in 10 days. In retrospect l believe the 2 months of conditioning from the first agent influenced us more than we should have let it, hence we probably sold the property too cheaply through the second agent.

The thing that has always stuck in my mid from that experience was on the night the Jenman subscribing RE agent signed us up and was leaving, as he walked into the night he said very convincingly "We wont let you down!" It raised our expectations of them and they failed to deliver.

[brains]

Were your expectations already too high regarding the sale price, hence not being able to sell in 2 months, or did the agent buy the listing?

I think even i could sell a property at below market price.

[TOTS]

Originally posted by Jacque
Hi Tots,

I've just finished listening to Jenman's Winning In Real Estate 1993 course on tape (got it second hand from the library sale for $1!) With his tactics fresh in my mind, it does strike me that he relies on the old "flattery" technique to acquire listings.
Woow Nelly you guys one step at a time.... You got it right in one, I have some of his sales training material... brain washing comes to mind. The best sale job any agent does is in convincing you to sign with them... that is why Jenman has succeeded because he places so much time in training his robots. NLP, 90% of the sales training is how to get and keep listings.

I provide my subscriber and soon will be posted on my web site the "Game Plane" which shows you how to sort the wheat from the charf, when selecting an agent, any agent.

DON'T take any coach tours... if you are truely interested in buying wholesale property I am negotiating with a group of independant professionals to asses developments and offer them to investors without any fees being extracted by middle men. That would be wholesale property, wouldn't it?

Have you heard of Wholesale Property Brokers? If they are taking a fee from the developer how can they be wholesaling property?

XBenX are you sure which is the lesser of two evils;)

Mondie your experience has been common to many people, unfortunately it is not exclusive to Jenman, but why charge such a high fee? Why use suspect techniques in training that have in experienced potential employees cold calling and discussing the sale of your home, they don't know! It's parrot work and inthe first 10 eeks or so they don't get paid as they are going through assesment.... slave labour?

brains you hit on something here, Jenman teaches the old mountain philosophy so often has the property too high. If they fail to "condition" the vendor quickly enough then they lose the property, this often means the next agent has an easy sale.

The red pill or the wine???? BOTH:D

[Mondie]

Originally posted by brains
Were your expectations already too high regarding the sale price, hence not being able to sell in 2 months, or did the agent buy the listing?

I think even i could sell a property at below market price.

l think they may have been aiming a little high, but it was the poor marketing that resulted in very little interest. Jenman is against open for inspections. The agent we switched to held one in the first week of listing and had more people through the place than the other agent did in a month. The eventual buyer seen the place the one and only OFI.

l am a big believer in OFI's; l dont see how Jenman can defend his postion on not liking them.

l can see what your saying TOTS about a large part of the focus of the Jenman system being centred on winning the listing. In the past few years of vigourous activity on the RE scene in Melbourne and Sydney, the houses have sold themselves, so winning the listing WAS selling the house. The sales skills needed to close a sale are not as vital. In a down market the skilled sales agents will really shine and the agents that can win a listing but not sell will suffer.

[Les]

G'day Mondie,

In a down market the skilled sales agents will really shine and the agents that can win a listing but not sell will suffer.

It doesn't work quite that way, Mondie - in most RE offices, the listing agent will get (say) 40% of the agents' commission, with the selling agent getting 60% (of course, the "agents' "commission might be 50% of total commission - the principal gets the rest)

So, the "listers" can still survive (especially well if they bring in twice as many listings as "selling" agents), It comes down to "each to their own".....

Regards,

[Kevin Hockey]

Mondie - You couldn't be closer if you tried.

Jacque - I too have Jenman's 1993 course tape and I attended his seminar in 1997/8 and he had changed philosophies a lot in that time and has gone more radical again since then. My regional managers are from Sydney and have told me a number of offices went broke after Neil advised the Jenman agencies to sell their rent rolls, an important source of income to any office.

Suggo - you asked why do agencies pay his fees. That is a good question, however Neil does advocate to his "disciples" that they should be independant. This is why you see so many of them as "Joe Bloggs real estate" and not franchises ( Professionals and First National are not Franchises). Not always, but a lot of the time, and this is because he knows they can't afford both.

You have to give him credit though, he sure is making a squillion bucks and he knows how to market a product.

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[Kevin Hockey]

Can I suggest Les you would have that around the wrong way. In most offices the listing agent receives 60-65% of the salesperson's portion. The selling agent receives 30-35%. This is to encourage agents to list property, without which an office wouldn't survive and to discourage someone parking themselves down the back with a newspaper and just throwing a buyer in the car occasionally and then getting a generous split of the commission.

I have never heard of the seller agent receiving more than the listing agent.

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[TOTS]

Originally posted by Les
G'day Mondie,

In a down market the skilled sales agents will really shine and the agents that can win a listing but not sell will suffer.

It doesn't work quite that way, Mondie - in most RE offices, the listing agent will get (say) 40% of the agents' commission, with the selling agent getting 60% (of course, the "agents' "commission might be 50% of total commission - the principal gets the rest)

So, the "listers" can still survive (especially well if they bring in twice as many listings as "selling" agents), It comes down to "each to their own".....

Regards,

Les in Vic. and around the country the Agency often gets 60% of the commission, the listing agent and selling agent split the rest (40%) sometimes aslow as 15%/25% split.

In a down market the older established agents often hang on and pick up the listings of the out going agents - the don't need to be the best agents, they just had to be there! I saw this many times.

Kevin you are spot on, my discussions with his left and right hand men disclosed how he wanted to achieve 600 agencies in the country. He peaked and last year was in serious danger of slipping below 300. He had to do something drastic so Jenman approved was born. He has very few agencies in inner areas because they can't compete on his commission structures.

Agents commissions vary greatly and most people would be shocked to know what the average agent actualy makes. It's the agency that makes the dollars, the long termer that picks up on the overnighters, and the gun usually leaves after establishing him/herself and gets their own agency or burns out.

how is the weather up there Kev?:D What is your position in the firm and how long been in the game if I may be so bold? Feel free to tell me to urinate away if this is a bit personel.

:p :D :)

[Mondie]

Originally posted by Les

It doesn't work quite that way, Mondie - in most RE offices, the listing agent will get (say) 40% of the agents' commission, with the selling agent getting 60% (of course, the "agents' "commission might be 50% of total commission - the principal gets the rest)


Regards,

l never realised the split but it makes sense now that you point it out. However l assume the lister cant collect a commision if the property isnt sold.

So an agency that wins listings but cant make sales is still going to be sucking the hind teat so to speak.

[Kevin Hockey]

Hi TOTS and I'm not here to "urinate" on anyone, whether you are for or against Neil Jenman. As I said his marketing skills are up there near Coke, McDonalds and many other big company's( one of the reasons I believe no-one wants to take him on - a master manipulator). You wouldn't rate their products up there for quality yet we'd all like a slice of there action.

It's easier for us in the industry to understand the full ramifications of the Jenman system, but if you listed with them, sold your property quickly and at a price you were after, you could easily become an advocate. Most people only deal with an agent every 7-10 years, a little training and you can get them to believe a lot of things, much of it comes down to ethics but I place more significance on morals. In an industry such as real estate where the potential earnings are so high it's easy to let those matters slip, unless your dedicated to a long career and a good reputation.

Lee Woodward was one of Jenman's top agents working in Dee Why. Since leaving sales to set up his training business he has begun working closely with John McGrath and by all reports has now seen how the other side works and is an advocate.

At the end of the day I'm just happy if an owner sells their property, gets a fair deal, and the best price possible for the property. I just don't believe that if you took 100 sales and compared them together, a property which has not been correctly marketed will achieve its best possible price on most occassions. Scaremongering is his style and I think that should be left with politicians.

I was told at our recent State conference that over 75 offices have left Jenman over recent months. I bumped into Barry Tyson from Mitchelton, Brisbane recently who was a staunch supporter for at least a decade. He had just resigned.

I must admit to agreeing with most of what you say TOTS but I do think you should be more open about yourself. I have posted my full name and web details not to promote myself, I just don't feel comfortable if I want to have a say but stay behind anonymity. Just like people who complain about the Govt. but refuse to vote and have their say. You are obviously experienced in the industry and have plenty to offer the forum, so tell us more mate.

As for my position, I am the Principal and Company Director, but most importantly just another cog in the wheel to get us to our goals.

Kev



www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[Kevin Hockey]

Mondie - any monkey can sell property, if a buyer wants it they'll buy it. It takes a lot of "skill" to list properties.

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[asy]

Originally posted by Kevin Hockey
I have never heard of the seller agent receiving more than the listing agent.

Kev

I agree.

any office I have worked in, and indeed in my office, listing agents get more than selling agents.

asy :D

[TOTS]

Kev I agree completely, I had my own agency and am a long term advocate for industry reform... I'm not hiding behind aminimity. I have been asking Jenman and the REIV to debate fully Industry structures and how agencies charge (commissions). Suprise, suprise neither Neil nor the REIV would discuss fees anywhere.
I started as a salesman, and was stunned by the corruption, manipulation and lies indemic in the industry. So I started my own business, helping people sell their own home. After death threats, break ins and thefts I started my own agency. We were inovative and customer focused, our clients were very diverse and were charged flat rates and not commissions, and our contractors/agents worked out of home and met regularly.
I expanded over time with up to 18 contractors/agents. investors were a big focus of what I did.
Now I only work with investors and make my income through subscriptions only. This is so I can be objective and comentate on the industry unbiased and independant. I receive no commissions from anywhere, no kick backs and no trailors, no financial or obligational conection anywhere.
My business is called "Think Outside The Square" and I work from home in Kangaroo Ground. Victoria. My name is Stephen Hill and you can contact me at hill@dodo.net.au My objective is to launch a web site shortly that will have information on all types of RE how they operate, charge, tips, tricks, methods, structures.
Highlighting how vendors rights and obligations, contracts, how to keep control, and if they want how people can sell their own home, no fees, and the best options to market.
The second part of the web site is for subscribers only, providing information as in these forums, plus scams, schemes, seminar shonks, frauds, get rich quick cautions, etc,etc,etc. objective forums on investment options, whats available, who does it, how it works, risk analysis etc,etc. availability of true wholesale property.... no agents fees, no marketing fees...etc.etc.etc.
I'm not hidding behind anyone or thing. If you think you know something about my business or me, just ask and I'll confirm it or tell you what I know.
I want investors to be able to access good unbiased information and competant reliable experts to help them achieve their goals. As far as I know I am the only site in Australia doing this without bias nor affiliation, beholding to no one. I can make a living and I will make a diferance. Join me or not, I invite you and anyone else to do the right thing.

I believe in ethical and moral business behaviour, Investors begged me to take up this challange and it has been very rewarding so far... it will continue, what the investors want will be researched and provided.

Sorry but I'm .... driven.

I ask, I question, I will not be cast aside.

 Think:) :D :cool: :rolleyes: :mad: :D :D

[Kevin Hockey]

Way to go TOTS and thank you very much for that. I hope you are successful at what you are trying to achieve, my problem however is as long as fair, ethical, hard working, decent real estate agents aren't thrown into the mud slinging, and typically this is the outcome.

The problems just aren't as simple as agents are naughty or nice. The problems come about from a myriad of complex situations ie An owner has an inflated opinion of the property worth. How does an honest agent tell this to an owner, within a reasonable time frame and still get compensated for their efforts. How do you give feedback to an owner when the property has been poorly looked after for an extended period of time, yet they think it is almost display home quality. It's possible, I do it, but not everyone has the people skills to handle it, nor will many Principals provide the right training to their staff to learn the skills.

I love my industry, it is my passion (hence why I am sitting here after midnight discussing this). The problems that lie within are just not simple to solve. Time issues, pools of buyers and tradition will see to it that RE salespeople won't be going away, they are a vital part of most owners needs to transact. Improving their performance and better education to the public..... well, good luck. To do that and be truly independant, mmmmmmmm where's the money for publicity coming from?

Thanks for telling us more about yourself. Now can I go to bloody bed please! :D zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[TOTS]

Ten years with Toyota Sales and Marketing Mgr. has taught me a thing or two. Publicity isn't that hard, maintaining conviction , now thats hard....Have a good ah day, night, whatever.

[craigc]

<reality check> REA's are you friends...... what have you bought without them......
</reality check>
know them
craigc

[investor]

Hi Tots

I'm glad you came out of your shell and tolds us abit about what you do.

What you have to realize, is that in this forum you may get your novice investor who may listen to you and what you have say, but there are also alot of experienced and hardened investors here who will not tolerate someone giving advice and opininons without exposing their sources or at least stating what experience they have. You have been giving the forum your suggestions and opininons, but you have been hiding behind a cloud of mystery. If you do this you will not be treated with the respect you possibly deserve.

Another thing the veteran forumites here hate, is if you give a broad opinion and then state that for the specifics you have to call me, e-mail me or subscibe. Let me give you some advice, if you can't post the specifics here on the forum then don't post it at all.

I'm not trying to attack you here, just trying to help you understand how this forum operates. I'm pretty new here as well but there is a certain etiquette that is followed by everybody when it comes to giving and recieving information. You obviously want to contribute to this forum which is great but be prepared to back up your opinions with facts, by posting them on this forum, if you want to be taken seriously.

Now back to the Jenman agents, does anyone, including you TOTS, know where I can get a list of Jenman agents in Sydney ?

Regards

Investor :)

[brains]

Originally posted by Kevin Hockey
Mondie - You couldn't be closer if you tried.

Jacque - I too have Jenman's 1993 course tape and I attended his seminar in 1997/8 and he had changed philosophies a lot in that time and has gone more radical again since then. My regional managers are from Sydney and have told me a number of offices went broke after Neil advised the Jenman agencies to sell their rent rolls, an important source of income to any office.


www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

Im not in real estate, but it seems to me that any real estate office that cant survive without its rent roll possibly deserves to go out of business.

[TOTS]

Investor thanks:D valid crits. I only did'nt want to be seen to be pushing my business... however I see and certainly understand what you are saying. I will be more specific or I'll shut up.
I am new to these chat sessions and value them highly.:cool:
Thanks again.
As far as a list of Jenman Agents, if you go to the Jenman site www.jenman.com.au (I think) there is a 1800 ph. no. they will give you the nearest JA for you.... don't know they will give you a list as JA have a fixed teritory and are not keen to have buyers and sellers wandering around unescorted.:D

[Kevin Hockey]

You are obviously correct Brains because that's exactly what happened. Neil no longer pushes this same hard line. Most of those offices that did sell their rent rolls and survived have indeed begun again.

It's not necessarily just about surviving though. A rent roll is about 90% of a real estate office's value. Each management (each area is different) is worth, let's say $1500 (Brisbane value's). If you can build a portfolio of say 300 and then wanted to sell and retire you would receive about $450k for the rentals, stock value which in RE is not much, maybe 50k, and goodwill is bugger all. Especially in a Jenman office where they are encouraged to be independant and use their name ie Kevin Hockey Real Estate. Take out the owner and there goes any goodwill.

So now, without managements, there's no retirement on an island in the pacific (hee hee). Yes there is plenty of money to be made just by selling, but it's just like saying the fish n chips shop down the road should be able to survive on selling fish, chips and burgers and doesn't need to sell drinks.

Have a great day guys, I have to go sell some houses.

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[TOTS]

Several years ago a large local agent in the Diamond Valley in Vic. sold it's rent roll of 1600 properties approx. for $3mill approx. The owner wanted to go into development, so his 5 odd franchisee offices as well as the main office was not able to operate a rent roll for 5 years approx. In that time they could only make money from sales, they have since gone from No. 1 agent to very much a 4-5 in the market place and several of the franchisees have changed camps or closed.
It is possible to make money from sales only but it requires a total rethink of how the agency works. Over head cuts etc.
HAGD (Have A Great Day):D

[Mondie]

Why does Jenman force agents that subscribe to his system into selling their rent rolls off?

Is it so they can supposedly focus on sales only, or is there some other reason. If it is such a lucrative and complimentary service to provide along side property sales, why avoid it?

[Jacque]

Mondie,

From what I heard Jenman doesn't like the hassles assoc with tenants- too much work, as far as he's concerned.

Personally, I think good PM's are worth their weight in gold, as it wouldn't be easy dealing with some of the lowlives out there who work the system and take landlords for a ride (one of my current tenants, for example, who hasn't paid rent since Christmas, has no intention of moving or paying and is breaking so many lease conditions it's not funny.....) PM's are really in a different category to salespeople and need to be trained as such.

TOTS, as has already been mentioned, we value transparency on this forum and skepticism is the middle name of many here. Healthy and curious questioning is often the only way to weed out the truth and, though I look forward to hearing more about your business (sounds intriguing), I would also welcome more facts about the "wholesale buying" that you are advocating. A truly great deal will win you many buyers!

I like your name "Think outside the square", as it suits the investing technique of many who post here on a regular basis. Welcome to the forum :)

[TOTS]

Jacque I appreciate the kind words and accept the crit. I'm new to this but you guys are puttingg me straight quickly... thanks:)
If you really want to understand Jenman you have to know the industry and how he came into being... by the way be as skeptical as you like, I wish to inform and not mystify.
There are a number of legal battles happening in Victoria at the moment, that if successful will impact on the national RE Industry. How would you like to remove perhaps 2/3rds of the agents from the market? There is also a movement to expand flat rate agents and best of all the introduction of true wholesale property. The competition would still be there, but the volume of agents would decrease.:cool:

[bundy1964]

Doesn't Neil spout about when the sky has fallen in on all the property prices that most of the agents will be left baking out in the sun :eek: Getting states to agree on non life threating things is like trying to reserect the Tasmainian Tigger :rolleyes:

bundy

[TOTS]

Lawyers have been trying to get access to the agents relm for a long time with out success. However there have been gains and Jenmans retoric is about publicity, self promotion... In Vic. if you act like an agent without a license you can be fined up to $50,000. Lawyers are in a position to act in the best interests of their clients, follow their directions... and sell their property.
Jenman is under attack at the moment by new groups like Set Sale etc. It ain't gettin any easier for the agents....

[Kevin Hockey]

TOTS if there has been any significant gains in the industry I don't believe it has come because of David Pilling or Neil Jenman. The industry doesn't need radicals to beat their own cause under an illusion they are doing it in the publics best interest.

The person who I believe is showing the industry how they can be successful, honest and ethical is John McGrath. I have attended many of his sessions, read his book and listened to tapes etc, and he always insists on a high standard.

Like everything, there will be those who have had bad experiences with McGrath's as well, but a positive approach without the mud slinging and from someone who has crediblity I think would be a start in the right direction.

It's all about training in my opinion. I was lucky, I had a good role model in the beginning, plenty of others don't. I do know Real Estate bashing just ain't gunna do it. And anyone who goes that road loses my respect immediately, the same as most people.

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[brains]

"I do know Real Estate bashing just ain't gunna do it. And anyone who goes that road loses my respect immediately, the same as most people. "


Kevin, Love your work, but does the above mean you have no respect for approximatley 99% of the adult population of Australia?

[TOTS]

Originally posted by Kevin Hockey
TOTS if there has been any significant gains in the industry I don't believe it has come because of David Pilling or Neil Jenman. The industry doesn't need radicals to beat their own cause under an illusion they are doing it in the publics best interest.

www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

Kev I agree to a point, don't confuse criticism's with bashing, "brains" has a point, and remember McGrath is still operating under the current RE system. Training is good and I'm all for professionalism, if the system is good and fair... I and the vast majority of the public clearly don't believe it is.

Perhaps a change, while not popular with the Industry would be best for the public. Perhaps set fees, flat fees or ????? John McGrath is certainly successful and a good agent... does that mean he is good for the public?

I have many poll's as well as those done annualy that always place agents, politicians and car salesman as the most deceptive or least respected. Do think the industry needs reform?

[Kevin Hockey]

Thanks Brains, and I do understand what you mean, however, every time I go to a party or social event and someone asks me what I do, the response is always positive and friendly. Although surveys suggest we are unpopular I don't ever get that reaction. I guess I try to take that as a positive.

Hi TOTS - I feel I need to try and diplomatically make a point here. Agents work for those who are paying us and sometimes/ often this is where the problem lies. Buyers are relying on the info provided by someone who is representing the other party. This is not an excuse for lying, deception etc, but we should always keep that in mind. No-one needs to tell me what goes on in the industry, I see it everyday, but not every complaint is an agents fault either.

Yeah I know, I'm looking at it from my side and I'm not gunna get too much sympathy here am I. :D

It's always worth a try I guess..

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[TOTS]

Kev I hope your sitting down, but I must agree! Unless you've worked in an agency you can't understand the games that happen from both sides of the counter.
I worked for an agency, had my own agency, consulted to agencies, developers and the public. The lies are certainly wide spread and the agent can often be the meat in the sandwich.
What do you suggest?

[Kevin Hockey]

Sorry TOTS, I didn't notice your question at the end. Whether the industry needs reform, I'll leave that to others to decide. I don't understand what the issue is over commissions though. As it is in all states other than Qld it is deregulated. Owners can negotiate to a figure as low as they like, and there's plenty of them who are happy to do it for nothing. Cutting commissions is catching on up here now too, just not by me.

Do you feel we are grossly over compensated for what we do?

I don't feel we are. My family has sacrificed immensely because of the hours I have put into my career, especially my 2 boys. To be successful and earn a high income in this industry you will have to sacrifice a lot. Then there's the costs too, can't be a good salesperson and drive an old car. Mobile phones, advertising of your self, licences and training the list goes on.

My point about McGrath is he is training people to work within the industry but to do it with integrity, and that's what I believe we need. The best agents are those who realise the only way to really succeed is to have repeat business and referals, and you can't do that if you are cheating and deceiving your clients and customers.

Kev


www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[Kevin Hockey]

Mate, it's like wanting World Peace. Can it be done?????

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[TOTS]

I believe it can be done and I will try to make it happen. But I agree that there are significant overheads however, I don't believe there is room for bad agents, there will always be a place for RE Agent but perhaps under a different system...Scottish perhaps or the Vendor system or perhaps the Traditional agent structure with less players. But structures like Jenman, Pilling and FSBO have basic flaws which will ultimately leave them wanting.

[New Dad Soon]

Hello Stephen,

My name is John. I have followed your comments on this site with interest re integrity and doing your bit to change the industry.

I wonder about ones integrity when I see posts such as.......

"After information on Henry K etc. (post #1)

If anyone can assist with information on this Guru please let me know hill@dodo.net.au"

"Seminars - What is a scam, inform me please! (post #1)

It's a nightmare out there, I am being told that I can get rich by following this Guru and that seminar. Then I'm told how it is a rip off and you need a good planner... who do you trust and why?"

You then go on in later posts to reveal what you are actually seeking, in order that you may use this forum as a source for your income producing website...... and I quote.....

"The second part of the web site is for subscribers only, providing information as in these forums, plus scams, schemes, seminar shonks, frauds, get rich quick cautions, etc,etc,etc. objective forums on investment options, whats available, who does it, how it works, risk analysis etc,etc. availability of true wholesale property.... no agents fees, no marketing fees...etc.etc.etc."

I wonder how many of these seminars you have attended and paid for yourself, in order to gain the material you seek.

Any other means of generating an income from the material you would otherwise obtain would make you no different to the seminars speakers ie 'recycling information that is otherwise available, with their own experience added to give it THEIR perspective??????????????????'

[TOTS]

Originally posted by New Dad Soon
Hello Stephen,

My name is John. I have followed your comments on this site with interest re integrity and doing your bit to change the industry.

I wonder about ones integrity
You go on in later posts to reveal what you are actually seeking, in order that you may use this forum as a source for your income producing website......

I wonder how many of these seminars you have attended and paid for yourself, in order to gain the material you seek.

Any other means of generating an income from the material you would otherwise obtain would make you no different to the seminars speakers ie 'recycling information that is otherwise available, with their own experience added to give it THEIR perspective??????????????????'

John I'm a little lost with what you are saying.... lets take it slow with what you are suggesting, after all I'm no "guru". I was asked very directly to say who I was and what I did for a living, having explained that and the fact I didn't want to use this forum to promote my business. Since then I seem to been questioned by people who haven't explained who they are, what they do or what there agenda is.

I have openly answered all questions asked, and yet you want to discuss integrity.

Do you feel I have a hidden agenda? Or is it that you don't like the questions I ask or the answers given?

I do research lots of areas including seminars, web sites, businesses, ASIC, ACCC, Accountants, Solicitors, Lawyers, Financial Planners, Financial Advisors, Finance Brokers, Banks and Other Finance Institutions, Property Groups, Property Guru's, Real Estate Groups, Agencies, Investors, Developers, Builders etc. All for my subscribers and the benefit of the public via the free section of the up coming web site.

Are you one of the above? Your profile says nothing, very easy to be critical... something about throwing stones. I've made mistakes, taken risks, had wins and loses. I've learnt and am still learning, I want to take that information to improve the RE industry, and protect investors from "Predators".

Is this genuine desire to help investors and the public some plot or sinister behaviour... I'm a little lost! I don't mind crits. but please explain my folly a little clearer please?

As I stated I make money one way, my subscribers! If I don't produce I don't have subscribers or a business. If the administrator has the slightest issue with anything I say or intimate, I would expect to be sent packing, is the information I've given been inaccurate? Opinions are another matter, but I don't expect to get hung for a differing opinion.

So I welcome your interest but not the implication.
:confused:

[New Dad Soon]

Originally posted by TOTS
John I'm a little lost with what you are saying.... lets take it slow with what you are suggesting, after all I'm no "guru". I was asked very directly to say who I was and what I did for a living, having explained that and the fact I didn't want to use this forum to promote my business.

All for my subscribers and the benefit of the public via the free section of the up coming web site.

Are you one of the above? Your profile says nothing, very easy to be critical... something about throwing stones.

Is this genuine desire to help investors and the public some plot or sinister behaviour... I'm a little lost! I don't mind crits. but please explain my folly a little clearer please?

As I stated I make money one way, my subscribers! If I don't produce I don't have subscribers or a business. If the administrator has the slightest issue with anything I say or intimate, I would expect to be sent packing, is the information I've given been inaccurate? Opinions are another matter, but I don't expect to get hung for a differing opinion.

So I welcome your interest but not the implication.
:confused:

Stephen

I do not sit in judgement...... unlike the 'implication'........but I see that you have yet to refute or answer my point.

You have posed as a 'newbie' by placing posts in several different forums within this site..... particularly the 'it's a nightmare out there'........ (here is another)

"Alan Burlock & Aussie Invest (post #1)

Alan Burlock? What does anyone know about this individual and http://www.invests.com.au/alan.html any and all comments welcome +or- thanks."

Only when questioned have you owned up to seeking material for your web site. You have indeed stated that you will earn money out of it...... and I certainly didn't call you a 'guru'.

What I do question..... is those that hold themselves out as righteous exposers of those crooked scammers, who themselves pose as that which they are not.

You are not using this forum to promote your business, but that isn't what I said...... I questioned the morality of launching a business based on an authoritive position (purported) and charging a fee for it, when the information being sold is not your own.

In the above you are now implying that the information gathered is part of the free section of your site...... yet previously you said....

"The second part of the web site is for subscribers only, providing information as in these forums, plus scams, schemes, seminar shonks, frauds, get rich quick cautions, etc,etc,etc. objective forums on investment options, whats available, who does it, how it works, risk analysis etc,etc. availability of true wholesale property.... no agents fees, no marketing fees...etc.etc.etc."

In my book, that is gathering opinions and recycling them rather than participating in the courses themselves, and certainly didn't sound free.

If you have participated in those courses and PAID THE MONEY then your business will be founded on knowledge and experience. Anything else is just hearsay.

OH....... my background is Law Enforcement and I have a sufficient number of properties (not posts).

[TOTS]

John I have and continue to go to most seminars for evaluation. I thought by asking for information as a novice it may through up a different aspect worth checking. With respect get out of your head that I'm selling information from what I learn off this site.... that is far from what I do. I research and provide forums and discussion structures so people can be informed and make informed decisions and choices. The information that I have found hear raises issues to be checked, not followed, I certainly don't make money from someones idea or discussion hear, I agree if I did that I'd be pushing rumour and inuendo, it must be fact.

I only joined this forum last week and it is interesting, to broarden my research and investigative options. I am pleased to hear that you query my motives, but I must say I question yours as well "What I do question..... is those that hold themselves out as righteous exposers of those crooked scammers, who themselves pose as that which they are not." What is it that you think I am?

John you stated "In my book, that is gathering opinions and recycling them rather than participating in the courses themselves, and certainly didn't sound free." and "If you have participated in those courses and PAID THE MONEY then your business will be founded on knowledge and experience. Anything else is just hearsay."

As I already stated I regularly attend seminars and sometimes pay the money, although this is not always necessary as I am invited by the operators as a guest to asses it for myself. I pay and attend because it is what my subscribers want me to do, and it is only the first step in the research process. I certainly am not rehashing others opinions, but thanks for letting me clear that up. Now you know my business is founded on knowledge and experience.

If I don't know about something or someone I find out so I can report back to my subscriber(s) that raised the issue. I constantly look for new issues that will be of interest to the subscribers, be as cynical as you like but don't shoot the messenger.

I can only repeat that I am doing this for the right reasons, that is why I have cut myself off from receiving referal fees or financial kick backs, trailors, leaders or finder fees. Hey if you find a problem don't join, thats fine, however, I'm not running a scam, scheme, fraud or shonk. I look at what is being offered, asses it, research it, validate it and if there is a problem report it, after I have adressed the issues with that person or business.

My opinions, my research, my evidence, your choice. I wish to improve the business and offer more services so any suggestions are welcome. If your background is Law Enforcement, whats your forground? Bad joke sorry.... :D. I feel you have issues with me but I am at a loss to do anything but respond. If anyone else has comments I will be glad to hear them, as long as it isn't a spanish inquirsition.

Boy it's a long day already, not even time for a drink. Have a good day guy's

[New Dad Soon]

Hello Stephen

I wonder why you would get invited to these seminars to assess them for yourself, if you are not holding yourself out as an authority on seminar scams?

So you sometimes pay. Very good. And you sometimes deceive............ just to get a better amount of feedback (I thought by asking for information as a novice it may through up a different aspect worth checking).

My motives.......hmmmm......objecting pointedly to those who represent themselves as one thing, when they are clearly something else...... whether that is giving advice while owning NO PROPERTY....... or warning people off investments/seminars/etc that you have not actually participated in

"If I don't know about something or someone I find out so I can report back to my subscriber(s) that raised the issue. I constantly look for new issues that will be of interest to the subscribers"

If you are genuinely looking to help your subscribers, and I see by one of your other posts you are offering warnings about some bloke named Alan Burlock......... offer up the REASONS based on your own experience. If you haven't got the experience, ie you haven't done a JV with this guy, then pay the money and do so.

(Running a business involves outlays in the form of Capital to establish yourself, which include the costs of research. As anyone knows, you don't start a business overnight without some form of outlay).

By constantly looking for new issues that will interest your subscribers (your words) you are soliciting information as you have done in this forum that you are then charging for (subscription = payment).

You have some real estate experience from your posts that I see, yet you are not a buyers advocate. If you are genuine about looking after your subscribers, become an advocate and get out there and work on their behalf. At least then you can speak with first hand experience....... and it would only be a matter of time before you are an authority......

[Kevin Hockey]

Hi New Dad Soon, if by your name you have a child on its way, congrats, I hope all is going well. Welcome to the forum also, not that I've been here long myself.

As you would know I have been debating things here myself, but would like to defend TOTS a little if I may, assuming I have read you correctly. We should all attend training, seminars and whatever we made need to better our own knowledge and sometimes you may even use material gathered to express your own views, I can't see any problem with that, it's all about learning. As someone else in the forum said "Life is a problem, living is about solving it". Your first post also seemed to be very direct, I would prefer to judge someone once I have listened fully to what they have to say and preferably meet them in person.

I have enjoyed reading TOTS posts, sometimes I agree, sometimes not. It's hard to judge someone from a few forum notes though. Overall I believe TOTS makes some very valid points and as we all do, he makes his suggestions from his experiences and beliefs. Surely thats what we are all about. I'm here to learn, and god knows I'll use this knowledge and pass on what I've learnt, publicly and privately.


Kev



www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[New Dad Soon]

Hello Kevin

Thank you very much for your best wishes. Only a few weeks to go, then less sleep than I get now.

Having been a member of the site for some time, I generally do not comment on peoples opinions, whether I agree with them or not. Without intrusive questioning, you will never know if the person offering the advice is a player or a talker, and as you say, a face to face meeting is often better.

(My only previous posts have been in response to a spanish inquisition initiated by a post from economic, where some forumites chose to interogate others).

I do not at all wish TOTS to think he is not welcome, valued or otherwise appreciated in trying to assist the other forumites.

Anyone who reads my posts carefully will see the issue is not his comments (which I agree with), rather the way in introducing himself to the forum. I also expressed a direct observation, not a demand for information.

My initial post stands, was correct and agreed to by TOTS, in that he misrepresented himself to the forumites in order to gain feedback. That is nothing to do with his valid opinions, suggestions, experiences and beliefs.

We are as you say all here to help each other, and the opinions and assistance offered by numerous members is invaluable.

That said....I guess I am direct when someone poses as a newbie who plainly is not..........

[TOTS]

New Dad Soon, I'm (almost) speachless... i can only assue here that there is a hidden agenda behind your comments. I've been open, honest and pleased with the general debate on this forum, unfortunately you have decided that I'm satin and I spread words of evil. I don't assume to know you and would be pleased to discuss anything at length with you, however I think any further comments will not help the issues here.
I think it's healthy to have discussion, but be honest and constructive not deceptive as you accuse me. Who are you? Where do you work and why am I the anti christ?
You have taken quotes I made and have come to a conclusion that is just wrong. Perhaps I still haven't made my points clear enough or your point of view is jaded, either way I assure you you are wrong!
I get invited to these seminars because I have contacted those operating them, informed them as to who I am, what I do, and what I am concerned about... as per subscribers concerns or mine. I inform them of my intention to attend and asses a future seminar or course. They either invite me as a guest or I pay... please tell me where the error is? Do you know the meaning of research or have you heard of mystery shopping or benchmarking? It is clear by your accusations that you don't know me or what I stand for, nor what seminars etc I've attended... Judge me not lest yee be judged.. I've been open and you?
Your other comments are ridiculious regarding business and overheads you do not know my operation or structure, again you don't know what is done with the information, how it is processed or used.
I have been an advocate, and I now feel you are definately disturbed, angry or put up to this fess up... whats crawled up your orifice?
The best suggestion I can offer you is DONT SUBSCRIBE! Complain about the weather or the cost of living, Taxes or just get a good sleep... you may wake up one the right side of the bed.
If I wronged you I am sorry but gee get a grip.

Kev... Thanks ... is that clear thinking! Didn't we discuss agents and and some of the problems with clients its not all one way... :D :D :D Perhaps it will be clearer when thee web site is up... talked with the internet people today looks like a couple of weeks yet. Have a great day... is the cup half empty?:confused:

[geoffw]

New Dad Soon,

If you were offended by the way TOTS introduced himself- bear in mind that I am the only person who responded to him as a beginner- see http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6131

I was rather hurt by responding to him as a beginner, then finding out he was just fishing. I certainly don't think it was a good way of coming in fresh into a forum.

However, he did out himself very quickly- and perhaps I should have checked his profile before posting. When I did check, it wa sthere- I don't know if it was at the start, but it was there not too much later.

I found out not very long after I responded that he was not what he said he was. I did edit my response a little, but not much. I do stand by what I said, no matter what I thought he was at the time.

Mistakes were made, but let's leave this subject where it is now.

[bundy1964]

I guess time will tell if the fisherman will bring in a catch or turn into another scum sucking bottom dweller that he wants to catch.

sceptics -r-us

bundy

[TOTS]

CHRISCO HAMPERS
Ever assumed that you save money on a Chrisco Christmas hamper? Guess again.
On a $200 hamper you may lose up to $60. And how fresh is their frozen meat?
http://www.consumer.org.nz/newsitem.asp?docid=1323&category=News

Oh is this off topic... it can be healthy to be a sceptic.;)

[asy]

I looked into the Crisco idea, not to buy it, but just out of interest.

I found it funny that they were advertising their special packs for something like $200 OR an advertised special of $18.20 per month for 11 months...

Well, if you do the math, you are actually paying $0.22 cents more to pay it off on the "Christmas special" than if you bought it outright, and obviously more than if you went and bought all the ingredients in a store.

BUT

I have to say, I thought it over and decided that this is a method of wrapping Christmas hampers (pun intended :) ).

If you are a pensioner, and the thought of $200 all at once is too much, why not pay it off over 11 months. Fair enough, you could put the money in a jar, and at the end of 11 months buy more than what they are offerring, but the reality of it is that ppl don't do that.

I guess this is a method of ensuring Christmas dinner for some.

Would you condemn ppl who buy wrapped properties? No. (Well, I wouldn't anyway). They, too, know that they are paying over the current market value of their properties, but do it anyway, to have peace of mind, and the knowledge of what they are buying.

I see it as much the same thing.

just my thoughts...

asy :D

[geoffw]

Originally posted by TOTS
CHRISCO HAMPERS
Ever assumed that you save money on a Chrisco Christmas hamper? Guess again.
On a $200 hamper you may lose up to $60. And how fresh is their frozen meat?It's definitely off topic- I'd prefer it you had answered my post directly- http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=37737#post37737

[TOTS]

I hope it's a long time before I have another day to rival this... I thank you all for the chance to be human. I am sure this will improve thingsssss. I think I'll try and lay down now asy.

geoffw they were my mistakes and I thank and appoligise to you at the same time.....

Peace on earth....

[Kevin Hockey]

I'm utterly bloody bemused.

If we have a specific question why don't we ask it. I've been happy with the answers I have received so far. To ask someone to explain an entire process here is, I feel, a little unfair.

Kev




www.nundahrealestate.com.au (http://nundahrealestate.com.au)

[bundy1964]

Hi asy
I would like to think we are above being crisco customers :D

Unfortunatly the property world seems to have more than it's fair share of shady people:eek: not so easy to do a simple number crunch to sort them out though.

bundy

[asy]

Originally posted by bundy1964
Hi asy
I would like to think we are above being crisco customers :D

Unfortunatly the property world seems to have more than it's fair share of shady people:eek: not so easy to do a simple number crunch to sort them out though.

bundy

True bundy, and more's the pity... Would be nice if the numbers told the story!!!

Oooh, and I must note, I think this is the first thread that's hit the ton!

asy :D

[Jamie]

Hi asy,

Oooh, and I must note, I think this is the first thread that's hit the ton!

Hehehe... what a thread to hit the ton...

We go from Andrea Sutton to Chrisco hampers :D :D

Gotta love the forum...

Jamie

[suggo]

Hmmm, interesting!

I must say that I can see the "TOTS issue" (don't you love becoming an issue TOTS) from both sides here. I do think that TOTS came into the forum in a bit of dodgy way, and at first I was pretty wary of what he was about (still am a little, I look forward to the website to help clear things for me). I can also see that his entrance was also a way of testing the waters as to what sort of people post here. I mean if he had been inundated with scheme offers and JV's etc, he probably would have thought this to be a very shonky grouping of people and he probably would have been right. Once he saw that the advice given was genuinely trying to be helpful and was upfront and honest he did reveal himself to us as the person he actully is.

TOTS, I do feel however the Satin following things were abit over the top. New Dad is obviously wary of people that aren't upfront and it will take time for him to accept you because of this, him coming from a law enforcment background this should not surprise anyone.

Just thought I would try to look from a middle ground, hope I have helped and not hindered.

Oh and how about that Neil Jenman fellow....that's what this thread is about isn't it????:confused: :D

[TOTS]

suggo thanks but I deserved it, you are right and I was "a pain", but believe it or not time will show it was for the right reasons. I am learning about these forums and I have not been active in them before... wow what a learning curve... have taken my pills and earned a drink today.:D

[Sim]

mmm... no mention of Jenman in a long time. Time to move on. Thread closed.