Percentage of Pop. who buy IP's [Archive] - Somersoft Property Investment Forums

Kristine..

21-02-2003, 11:09 PM

G'day

Apparently 4.5% of those who own one property own two properties, 1% own three, and .5% own more than three, a total of 6% of all property owners.

Some of the 4.5%, when they sell their one extra property, do not replace it. However, this 6% remains fairly constant, varying slightly depending on stock market and other general economic conditions.

Given that less than 70% of the population own property, then only 4% of the population in real terms own two or more.

Lily, many people are 'gonna' do something, and as the auction / renovation / investor TV programs are popular light entertainment, then many more people are 'gonna' do it, too!

Someone said to me the other day "Kristine, you are one of the very few people I know, who will talk about money" by which they meant finance, economics, how to fund and finance, tax, investment, development etc

The following excerpt is from the AusStats website, reporting on results from the last Census. It makes fascinating reading, presenting insights into the patterns of behaviour in Australia today.

I was intrigued to read that some 22% of 2nd property owners actually inherited their most recent rental property. So they became investors by accident, not design.

URL is http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/05DC1D64F51F55F7CA2568A900136299?Open

QUOTE .......
Media Release

8711.0 Household investors in residential rental properties
EMBARGO: 11:30 AM(CANBERRA TIME) 16/06/98

Jump to: Related Links

In June 1997 there were 584,200 private household investors with rental investment property and most investors owned or partly owned one rental property only, according to results of a survey of Australian households released today by the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

The private rental market provides housing for 20 per cent of Australia's households. Private household investors own over 50 per cent of residential rental properties.

Although there was no typical investor, survey results showed that couple families represented a significant proportion (75 per cent) of total household investors in residential rental property. Many (70 per cent) of these couple families had two income earners, and 62 per cent were within the prime working age group (one partner aged 35 to 54).

The reasons for investing varied, although two thirds of household investors were looking for a secure, long-term investment. Other important motives were negative gearing, rental income or to use the property as a possible future home. While most investors specifically purchased the property to rent out, a quarter were renting out their former homes.

The average value of the rental properties, as estimated by their owners, was $146,000 although this was considerably higher in NSW ($190,000), reflecting the high real estate prices in Sydney. Just over 60 per cent of rental properties were separate houses and 26 per cent were flats or apartments. The average weekly rent was $172, although again this was considerably higher in NSW ($205).

Further details are in Household Investors in Rental Dwellings, Australia June 1997 (Cat. No. 8711.0) available from ABS bookshops. A summary of its findings is available from this site.

.......UNQUOTE

and Rolf -

shouldn't it be 40/50/30 ? I started work at 15 at Coles in The Mall, West Heidelberg, on Saturday mornings. That means I've already been in the workforce for 37 years. If I work until 65 (my eligible retirement age), that would be 50 years.

Judging by my parents example, they retired on about 30% of their last working income. And apart from my first full time job as a Spectroscopist, I have never worked a regular 40 hours per week.

However, as I have no intention of ever retiring, I would rather operate on the 60/70/$multiple ratio. It's really a lot more fun!

Cheers

Kristine

On the other hand ... I'd really love a cruise on the QE2!

Lily House

22-02-2003, 12:25 AM

Hi Kristine,

I take your point (about the gunnas) however, just from my own experience, I would not be surprised if the statistics have changed since 1997 - after all that was 6 years ago. I believe the recent boom in housing prices, along with the depressed state of the stock market, has meant a shift towards property investment. Some people now think they can't lose with property (after seeing their PPOR's double in the last 3 years) so are starting to invest there. Dangerous stuff of course.

It also seems to me that people are more aware about their retirement etc than a few years ago. And yes I think the TV shows ('Money' etc) are a large part of it.

Anyone know of some more recents stats of the variety that Kristine kindly provided?

Lily

suggo

22-02-2003, 12:41 AM

Lily House, it will be interesting to see how many actually hold on to their properties when the market does actually change for the worst. Same sort of thing happens in the stockmarket nowadays, when it is going well everyone starts investing or saying they are going to invest then..........ahhhhhhh, quick sell get out. They buy at the top and sell at the bottom, typical and very unfortunate.
Actually you saying that all your friends are saying they are going to or just have bought tends to make me think the downturn is about to happen even more. I am sort of looking forward to it abit actually, wouldn't mind raising the rents abit for better yeild results (getting together a bit of cash for a deposit (if equity doesn't make the grade) on another in a buyers market would be good too :) )

Alan H

22-02-2003, 07:09 AM

It really doesn't surprise me that MOST 'property investors' only ever buy one IP.

Buying ONE IP is not usually that difficult. In fact if you already have your own home and choose to do it through various companies it can be an extremely simple process TO BEGIN WITH. Keeping it, dealing with with the various management/maintenance/finance/tenant issues etc. and ensuring the product you purchased is actually rising in value is more difficult....

Successfully handling the above but then juggling all that is involved with TWO properties is rapidly turning into WORK. Hmmmm.........finance structure is now becoming more of an issue, DSR's, rental reliance, cross-collateralisation etc etc.

Then of course there is the third, fourth etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think a lot of people get that first IP as a result of a newspaper article, bbq or dinner party. Know what I mean? They've just heard how someone made a quick $100,000 out of property and think that this looks such an easy ride they'd better jump on as soon as possible. NB. Only problem with many of these first time investors is that they have all been to the dinner parties during a property boom and they're all jumping on the same ride :) But I digress.....

I guess what I'm saying is that post 1st IP Settlement.........REALITY SETS IN!

"Oh....I didn't realise I'd have to put up with 'tenants' as part of this process!", "Oh no.......they left marks on the carpet.....what will we do?", "We never thought about interest rates rising 3% in 2 years!", " It's been vacant now for a month.......perhaps this whole IP idea wasn't such a good idea".

Anyone ever heard the above types of comments too?

Why don't most people have more than one IP? Because it involves a reasonable amount of work, management, committment and certainly a modicum of patience at times...... and quite frankly most of the population are not willing to add all this to earning a living, raising a family and paying the bills. If you can time-mange it the rewards are there for you.

I never look at investment property or for that matter investment in anything as 'a free ride'. Usually it takes a degree of work and commitment. If I'm at a bbq and people want to talk about the 'free and easy' ride of property, while not discouraging them, I try to give some input on ways to minimise the problems as well as highlite some potential danger areas. I'm never negative, but I'd just love to see some of these people I'm talking to get two, three, four, five or more IP's........not one that they will wear like an anchor around their necks.

:)

spooky

22-02-2003, 07:58 AM

Hi Alan

I think the reason that most investors get only one IP is because they negative gear.

The term positive gearing has only been around for the last 18 months in common use circles.

There is also the mantality that one should pay less tax rather than work smarter so that one earns more money.

spooky

AndrewG

22-02-2003, 11:27 AM

Hi Tim,

Regarding what you said :

>People at work (yes still working) cannot understand the 'risk' I take with investment property.
>Do people out there on this forum experience similar 'resistance' in the way people think?

As someone who is 31 years old and now have 6 IPs (and on a fairly average salary I reckon), YES!!!! Definately people look at me and wonder why the heck I do this, and quite often think of those "60 minutes" episodes where they see the "Tenant from Hell" kicking the place down etc.

The way I figure it, I would rather contribute towards MY OWN retirement MY OWN WAY rather than just hand over money to some superannuation company which probably won't even be in business by the time I retire, and if it is, will have eroded my money through fees and crap investing anyway! I shake my head and consider myself LUCKY when I see all these reports in the papers stating how badly super funds have done etc. etc. and I'm just glad I'm doing it all for myself.

Quite simply, I see no reason other than fear, and maybe a confidence issue for other people at my work to do the same as what I have.

Andrew.

JoannaK

22-02-2003, 11:28 AM

Hi Alan,

you raise some very valid points and agree 100%.

I'd like to add, that most people do not view their property investing in the business manner in which it should be viewed.

People become too emotional about their investment properties, the tenants, the carpets, the paint, the pets etc etc.

If people started viewing their investment activities more like a business, there would be far less hassels and heartaches for them, and the whole process will then seem that much less daunting.

And so so many people fail to research properly, as we all know. I wouldn't go and open a business without doing relevant research, so why would I go and buy a property without knowing exactly what I'm getting myself into. It's more than just buying a property and then sitting back to relax and watch things happen.

People make it harder for themselves than it really needs to be, and that's probably why most don't get past the first one or two.

Kristine..

22-02-2003, 05:56 PM

G'day

Point taken, Lily, regarding the age of the statistics. It will be very interesting to see the results of the most recent census, and whether profiles in the population have really changed that much at all.

We were out to dinner last week, and all three couples had, or had had, properties other than the PPOR.

However, one couple sold their previous rental, which had been their original PPOR and which they had kept when they bought PPOR #2. But when flash & fancy PPOR#3 came along, they sold the original house. So back to sole property owners.

The other couple bought a small unit specifically for investment about 12 months ago. So far, so good.

And we've been around for a bit and have accumulated a few barnacles on the hull and are in the .5% category and have been for some time, disregarding the two which I bought in the last twelve months specifically to renovate and redevelop.

So, out of this small sample, the number of active investors who have made a choice to be investors has risen.

(Footnote edit: My husband has now told me that the other couple actually did not buy the investment unit. It went to auction and exceeded their arranged funds. And they haven't done anything since. So the status quo remains unchanged)

I have read that the 50+ generation, on finding themselves the beneficiaries of their parents' estates, are tending towards the 'retirement' property ie house at the beach, in the country etc and not necessarily a for-the-purpose investment property. (Disregard the put-it-in-superannuation brigade, the buy-shares group, and the lets-take-a-trip-before-its-too-late mob [I wish])

When I was selling in Melbourne CBD, the bulk of the enquiry came from the 50+ group, but most of the sales were to under 30s. The old 80/20 rule.

Perhaps when we birds flock together, it is easy to think that the whole population is thinking and acting the same way. However, from my dispassionate observation of human nature, the shift in and dispersion of real wealth has been slight, and has a lot more to do with the emancipation of the serving class following WW1 and the more recent deregulation of the banks, than it has to do with any real motivation from the 'bloke & blokess in the street' to create independent wealth for themselves and for their families.

I am happy to be proved wrong.

Cheers

Kristine

Off to take some muscle relaxant after a hard day oil painting the trims. 232 metres of skirting boards, plus an indeterminate amount of architrave, quad and other fiddly bits, not to mention 17 doors double sided plus two louvre doors. (No, no, not all today!)

If anyone has any really good tried and true methods of getting oil paint on with slightly less elbow grease than I'm using, please open a new thread in Added Value and I will be your slave for life. On second thoughts, what did I just say about the serving class?

Oh well, of all the gin joints in all the world, she has to walk in to mine!! The drink of the evening is gin & tonic with ice and a slice. Perhaps I better go now? Believe me, it is the oil fumes, I haven't even sipped the G&T yet!!

geoffw

22-02-2003, 09:46 PM

I have read that the 50+ generation, on finding themselves the beneficiaries of their parents' estates, are tending towards the 'retirement' property ie house at the beach, in the country etc and not necessarily a for-the-purpose investment property. (Disregard the put-it-in-superannuation brigade, the buy-shares group, and the lets-take-a-trip-before-its-too-late mob [I wish])Kristine,

A good post (as usual).

And I think the paragraph I've quoted hits the nail on the head formany.

I'm almost in the 50+ generation. And the only way that many people around me (at this age group at least) see to be able to retire is to inherit from more frugal (and perhaps more astute) parents. It's their only retirement plan, apart from the government pension.

But my parents are too healthy for this to happen. Around 75, and on annuities- so the longer they continue to enjoy life, the less the inheritance. That's quite cool. I'm here because I have a retirement plan.

Parents with assets are a copout for many.

Kristine..

22-02-2003, 10:43 PM

Hello, Geoff

Ta for the feedback.

Regarding the complexities of the human psyche and the Big C - I think it has more to do with Committment than with anything else. Of course, sitting on the fence can get to be a tad uncomfortable, but after a while your btm becomes numb and you don't notice it any more. Neither the numbness, nor the btm.

I know people who have seen the value of their superannuation drop by nearly 1/3rd, and yet not content with their employer's compulsory contribution, they continue to funnel voluntary contributions into the scheme. That's good.

I know people who bought lots of Telstra shares. That was pretty good, too.

I know people who, in order to claim the pension, deliberately spent almost all their lifetime savings of superannuation on a new car and a trip to Europe. Their assets, apart from the PPOR, are now below the threshold for the pension. That's pretty good, huh?

So why??? don't and haven't people bought property, other than the PPOR and perhaps the cement sheet cottage 'at the beach'?

Because of COMMITTMENT.

If you put a lump sum into super or shares (ignore the trip), it is a one off event. You don't have to back your judgement and take out a loan. If the fund improves in value, the investor feels smug and congratulates themselves on their good judgement. If the investment falls in value or fails completely, the investor can blame someone else, and apply for the pension, or more pension. Either way, their parent - the Government - will look after them.

Assuming, of course, that the economy doesn't fail, and that there is enough in the tax kitty to keep dishing it out.

So I shall draw a long bow here:

Are investors the mature people of society?

Are investors prepared to make mistakes, to take responsibility for themselves, their loans, and for their tenants!

Are investors the 'parent' types? What would Freud have to say about this?

Instead of envying the perceived good fortune of others, are we more inclined to watch and observe the successful Captains of Industry and those who came off the boats with two pound in their pockets and two words in English, and went on to provide for themselves, their families, and to employ other people and to move proudly into retirement, knowing they never put their hand out to anyone else for their entire adult life dating from before the age of 15?

And are investors more inclined to seek industries where the individual, by dint of hard work and perseverance, but perhaps without formal education, can succeed in a country full of amazing growth and opportunities?

Yes, I know that George Miele, musing in the laundry one day after he had retired from his career as an engineer, reflected that there must be a more efficient way to launder clothes than filling a bowl with water and detergent and agitating the clothes over a number of changes of water.

It is a matter of record that he then went on to invent the Miele washing machine, which dipped the clothing through small quantities of water thus achieving significant economies of water and detergent.

And that Miele then went out on the road himself to doorknock the sales of his machines and IN HIS RETIREMENT he built up an empire which to this day manufactures high quality domestic appliances.

But the truth remains ... very few of us will invent a cure for cancer, or a triple charged turbo washing machine, or a left handed tea cup

But ...

We can all buy another house, present it to the best of our ability, provide shelter and accommodation to another family, and in so doing, make provision for our own old age and the benefit of our successors against the uncertainties of governments and economies to the best of our ability.

So ...

It's easy!!

All we have to do is lose our fear of ridicule, our fear of envy, but most of all, our fear of committment.

And for most people, that's very hard.

So Geoff et al, it is one thing to preach to the converted, and certainly there has been a certain ground swell in awareness, but I remain convinced that the change in supposed perception has not reached the change in reality.

In my humble opinion, oh venerable and honourable forumites, the percentage of the population who deliberately buy income producing investment properties has not changed in a significant manner for the last ten years although I concede that it may change in a small way during the next ten years.

So my hot non-property investment tip for the week, is buy shares in the major recreational, tour and travel companies, in anticipation of the once-in-a-lifetime trip which all the baby boomers are about to take to celebrate their retirement!

And with the profits from the sale of the shares (sell on the rise because the demographic will not be longer than five years), buy more small investment properties in the regional 'nesting' suburbs.

Cheers

Kristine

Tim

23-02-2003, 10:53 PM

Andrew,

I have to agree with you. 6 IP's at 31 is a damn fine effort.

You are very right - It actually is fear and confidence that comes into play . As Dof Deroos says, if the figures stack up, you buy it.

Cheeers,

Tim

Donna L

25-02-2003, 02:15 PM

I'm just interested as a projection of the gunnas and the fearful, have all of you been bombarded lately by people showing you cuttings from the newspaper about bubbles bursting, units dying with a smug smile on their face saying "I told you so" ??? They love newspaper articles but totally ignore the fact that you have probably been through more property cycles than the journalist who wrote it, suffered more stockmarket crashes and yet you're still here, your properties are still rented and their values have continued to go up. Anyone else getting this?

geoffw

25-02-2003, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Donna L
I'm just interested as a projection of the gunnas and the fearful, have all of you been bombarded lately by people showing you cuttings from the newspaper about bubbles bursting, units dying with a smug smile on their face saying "I told you so" ??? They love newspaper articles but totally ignore the fact that you have probably been through more property cycles than the journalist who wrote it, suffered more stockmarket crashes and yet you're still here, your properties are still rented and their values have continued to go up. Anyone else getting this? I'm not getting that- mostly because I only preach to the converted now.

Xtine

25-02-2003, 09:04 PM

Go Kristine! (from another Christine)

As one of the 'accidental' investors (migrant Mum&Dad MADE ME DO IT), I can vouch for the fact that 'one IP does not a millionaire make' but Jeez it puts you on a 'holier than thou' stretch compared to the other 70% of the population. i.e. "What a clever girl am I. Thanks all, for those accolades you keep giving a 21 yr old. I shall just sit on my behind and pay off this investment. Gosh, there's nothing else I have to do is there? I'm already in the clever girl bracket, aren't I? Where's my Prince Charming? Won't he be so proud of me when he finds that I've added to his dynasty?

If not for a free ticket to a 'Jan Somers (and others) Seminar' years ago, it may have stayed at that. Thankyou, thankyou to my work colleague who gave me that ticket!

It took me 10 years to jump again, again, again. The power of education.

Yes, I met my Prince. He didn't have a dynasty... but he wants to build one... mmm mmmm.

Maybe the old anecdote about make millions should be reversed.
"It was damn hard to make the first million but the rest was easy"
is now,
"It was damn hard to buy the 2nd IP but the rest was easy".

Anyone else have the same hurdle?

perky29

25-02-2003, 10:18 PM

Yes Xtine,
My 1st IP was bought in SE QLD some 9 yrs ago, got burnt with many others as it was overpriced and the over supply at the time made it worse. It is only now worth what I bought it for.
Took me 8 yrs to buy another IP (a bit scared, had to convince/nag the wife for a fair while before she listened - and then bought something 10 min's down the road so we can keep an eye on it this time!!), now I am buying another and getting into wraps....this website has been an inspiration for me.
Dale , Rolf and many others who post on this website - thanks!!!

:)

Queen Bee

26-06-2003, 05:51 PM

Looking through older posts found this one and thought it was great, and needed to be back up there.

I personally thought buying my first IP was the scariest, thought I knew what I was doing, thought I did my research, but didn't have a clue. Had a mentor who really helped though, because if we'd been left to do it on our own I'm sure we would have paid way too much money.

IP No 2 was easy. Old pro's by now - we thought. Still knew heaps more than when we bought IP1 - but actually knew bugger all.

Knowledge is definately power - have been reading everything in site and I'm probably in "information overload" at the moment.

I get on this forum at night (or sneak on during the day) and learn so much, it would have taken me years and years to know what I know at the moment if it hadn't been for this forum - and I probably still don't know anything!

Everytime I find out something new I go rushing into the lounge, where my partner is trying to watch TV or whatever, and go "Guess what - did you know...!! He thinks I'm a pain half the time, cos he's just trying to watch TV and relax.

But then later on (maybe days later) we'll be discussing something to do with investing and he'll ask me something and then I'll go Well, actually I do know about that blah blah blah and on I go. Can't shut me up - because I love it!!

Cheers

cad

03-07-2003, 10:38 AM

Percentage of Pop. Who buy IP’S?

Every one is talking about investment properties, every where you look it is in newspapers, on television, doesn’t this remind you of the stock market a few years back?

My husband & I are 32 & 34, we have 8 IP’s we have never met another person our age that is doing the same thing or even on the same wave length, except for here.
So I can relate to AndrewG. Good going Andrew.

Any way our new investment strategy in the current climate of low interest rates is to reduce debt.
We plan on selling the property we currently have under construction, using the profit to pay off 2 other IP’s which will generate approx $1000pw income this will be the beginning of our retirement plan from the paid work force and the beginning to a whole new chapter in our life….working together full time to build a dynasty.

Let’s hope every thing goes to plan… will keep you updated.

Regards Cad
:D

Xtine

03-07-2003, 07:49 PM

Cad, all praise to you for the 8 IP's. Great going & here's to many more.

Isn't it funny how 95% of most peoples' circle of friends (certainly mine!) are not on the same wavelength as you/us.
Actually, I could probably extend that to 100% if you mean that
'friends'are only people that you have fun with & regularly associate with.

At your point in time, you're no doubt thinking 'Gosh, some of my friends are SO able to be doing the same as me. But they're not.

A couple we know, used to say to us, 'What's the point of going through all the hassle of an investment property when, in the end, when you're dead and gone, who are you gonna be leaving it to?' (We were dual income/no kids).

Last week, the same friends were telling me they were attending a seminar regarding investment property as they're not too far away from retirement so should be thinking about how to organise their finances.

Heard of the old saying "See a penny, pick it up, all day long you'll have good luck." ?

Aren't we all lucky the penny dropped so much earlier for us!

cad

03-07-2003, 08:49 PM

Thanks Xtine,

I wish I could surround myself with like minded people, but have given up on that quest.

Every one we know is able to do what we do, but they don’t……constantly ask advice though.

Still, I wish we began our investment journey earlier…..don’t you?

Unfortunately the only person I seem to bounce my ideas off is my accountant, he’s also a property developer & investor and those conversations are quite costly but well informed though…LOL

Regards Cad
:)

Aceyducey

03-07-2003, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Xtine
Isn't it funny how 95% of most peoples' circle of friends (certainly mine!) are not on the same wavelength as you/us.
Actually, I could probably extend that to 100% if you mean that
'friends'are only people that you have fun with & regularly associate with.

I find that these days I have more in common with other property investors than with people from other scenes I've been involved with...

And it's so much fun!!!!

One of the interesting thing said in some wealth book (I think The Millionaire Next Door or The Millionaire Mind) is that people tend to associate with others in a similar financial position....

If you associate mostly with people richer than you - you find it easier to achieve the same level of wealth.

If you associate mostly with people of less wealth than you, then they don't understand where you are going (and you possibly will become a perceived threat - too successful!!!).

Of course, opinions will vary - there's little empirical research on this...but who tends to talk you down more and who tends to talk you up - people wealthier or less wealthy than you?

(and wealth is more than money - health, wisdom, etc)

Cheers,

Aceyducey

always_learning

03-07-2003, 09:36 PM

That's what makes this forum so great, we can live 1000's KM apart in different timezones, different work patterns and availablity but still communicate our ideas and information.

The combined property IQ (PIQ) of this forum, if leveraged by any individual applied over a reasonable period of time, I would submit is enough for anyone to be a successful investor!

By combining desire, learning, goals, taking action, measure progress, adjust for changes, and doing it every day, must over time result in success.

JoannaK

04-07-2003, 06:40 AM

Hi Xtine,

Isn't it funny how 95% of most peoples' circle of friends (certainly mine!) are not on the same wavelength as you/us.

I agree completely...so much so that we've recently culled everyone that we once considered to be friends but no longer have anything in common with. That's just what happens.

Cad,

I wish I could surround myself with like minded people, but have given up on that quest.

Maybe you should try and get to one of the gatherings that happens in your state. You'll find plenty of like-minded people around

Spiderman

04-07-2003, 07:07 AM

Acey: I agree with you to some extent. Just one slight problem though if carried to extreme. If you sought only to associate with people richer than yourself, you'd have to hope that these people don't also follow that rule, otherwise they mightn't associate with you!

The social implications of a stratified society where people of one level don't talk to people on another are also damaging, and reduces the ability of people to progress. As AL says, that's what makes this forum great.

Nevertheless I agree that the beginner without good money habits or a strategy should stay away from casinos, pubs, TABs and other money sapping places whose patrons cede control of their lives and money to others. Apart from keeping your money intact, staying away stops you reinforcing bad habits from the financially uneducated that typically populate such places. Once you've got good habits and sufficient confidence in them so you can't be influenced, then a casino/TAB/pub visit won't do any harm, particularly if it's treated as an example of what not to do and an opportunity to be thankful of your achievements.

Yes, the Millionaire Mind does talk about associating with successful people, particularly in getting top accountants, lawyers, estate agents, etc. However this book also has a parable about the son of a millionaire who wanted to live in a posh suburb so he could associate with rich people (so he could be rich). He asked his rich father for money to buy a house. His dad wisely said no and would only give him enough to buy an average house in an average suburb. I don't think befriending people just because they're rich is the way to go, unless you have some common interest, and to get that you probably need to think a bit like them, ie a Millionaire Mindset!

AL: Agree 100% (all this agreeing is getting boring ; ). For me the three main factors seem to be:

1. Sufficient capital
2. Financial Education
3. The will to do it.

1 and 2 can be substituted for each other, but 3. is a necessary condition for which there is no substitute.

If you don't have much capital, it should be possible to educate yourself further to make better use of what you've got. OTOH if you have a fair bit of capital, the education required is less as you can put down big deposits and won't need as high returns.

Peter

cad

04-07-2003, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by JoannaK

Cad,
Maybe you should try and get to one of the gatherings that happens in your state. You'll find plenty of like-minded people around [/B]

JoannaK,

I don't want to sound pompous but I have tried this type of thing before only to find that everyone either owns nothing or have 1 IP and they only want to suck my brains for knowlege.

Cheers Cad

cad

04-07-2003, 02:51 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoannaK
[B]Hi Xtine,

I agree completely...so much so that we've recently culled everyone that we once considered to be friends but no longer have anything in common with. That's just what happens.

Are you for real, surely you're not serious, that's a bit extreme!!!

Cad
:D

Sunstone

04-07-2003, 09:39 PM

Dear Cad,

I don't want to sound pompous but I have tried this type of thing before only to find that everyone either owns nothing or have 1 IP and they only want to suck my brains for knowlege.

There will be people at property meetings that own nothing or just one. Why do people go along to these meetings when they have a number of IP's?

Maybe they feel that they can pickup one or two good ideas from others and learn from their mistakes/successes.

Maybe it is good for their own ego in someway or makes them feel good being able to help others. Maybe by helping someone they can help them when they need it.

Maybe the "newbies" know someone else that they can bring along to the meeting who knows a lot but is not IT savy enough to get onto the forum and know about the meeting?

At the end of the day I am sure that if you really wanted to you could put together a meeting of likeminded Perth/WA people from this forum that could help each other and from which you could develop a support base to not only encourage you at times when you need it but produce a networking tool and also be in contact with others that you WILL be able to learn from even in some small way. No-one knows everything. A great talker/speaker should be an even greater listener. We all can forget this sometimes.

I believe this is a mindset. If you think you can you can. If you think you can't.............

Something to think about.

Cheers,

Sunstone.

Kristine..

04-07-2003, 09:55 PM

G'day Sunstone

You're right!

At the recent Melbourne / MSM meeting I learnt such a lot from Go-Anna that my head was spinning for days!

No matter what we do, we can all get into a rut.

It is really important to hear what other people are doing. We don't have to rush off and mimic them, but it might be a part of the property market we hadn't considered, or a finance technique we didn't know about, and it gets us thinking about possibilities again.

The Forum is good, but nothing substitutes for real interpersonal contact with people who are not boasting or grandstanding, just simply sharing their good - and perhaps not so good - experiences with property investment.

Cheers

Kristine

Sunstone

05-07-2003, 08:25 AM

Dear Kristine,

Thanks, I remember our conversation well. :)

Well done, I am sure that a lot of others benefited talking with you on the night as well. :)

Cheers,

Sunstone.

JoannaK

05-07-2003, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by cad

Are you for real, surely you're not serious, that's a bit extreme!!!

Cad
:D [/B]

Totally serious! All our old friends are not on any sort of similar path or wavelength to us, and trying to explain what we do and why we do it to them is like talking to brick walls. They're interested in going out, getting pissed, seeing how they easily they can pick up that night, and all that other stupidity that goes along with it, so, we don't want to waste our energy on them anymore....there's nothing wrong with that at all....

Now, we're building ourselves a network of good people with similar interests and goals

Jacque

09-07-2003, 07:29 PM

Whilst I agree that mixing with likeminded investors is desirable, and I am the first to admit that I am passionate about property investment in particular, I do regard investing as only ONE part of my very busy life. For this reason, though I've made new friends I've also managed to retain the old- even those who scorn PI and come up with all the "what ifs" when our conversation turns to property. I've learnt, over the years, just not to talk property with those pals who aren't "into" it. Being friends doesn't necessarily mean you need to have everything in common and I think diversity is the spice of life, anyway! How boring would it be if we all talked about the same things all the time?......

Joanna, it sounds like you're not dumping your old pals because of their attitudes to investing- they just need to grow up!! :)

plainsong

09-07-2003, 08:49 PM

Agree with Jacque,

I learn something from absolutely everybody.. I have found that people with a deep interest in a subject quite naturally become a little obsessive about it-- but if it narrows their base of interests too much it's really not a good thing in the long run,

Big world and so much to learn,

Cheers,

brains

10-07-2003, 05:29 AM

JoannaK wrote:

"I agree completely...so much so that we've recently culled everyone that we once considered to be friends but no longer have anything in common with. That's just what happens."

CULLED???.............lovely choice of word when referring to friends, im surprised you werent "culled" first for being such a tosser. I couldnt imagine a life where i only know property investors or any one type of people for that matter.

Spiderman wrote:

"Nevertheless I agree that the beginner without good money habits or a strategy should stay away from casinos, pubs, TABs and other money sapping places whose patrons cede control of their lives and money to others. Apart from keeping your money intact, staying away stops you reinforcing bad habits from the financially uneducated that typically populate such places. Once you've got good habits and sufficient confidence in them so you can't be influenced, then a casino/TAB/pub visit won't do any harm, particularly if it's treated as an example of what not to do and an opportunity to be thankful of your achievements. "

I disagree with this guff, i have a TAB account, love a beer and like nothing better than an occasional splurge at the casino in whatever state capital im in. (Much to my wifes consternation, but thats counteracted by me not complaining about her Italian leather shoe buying habits, her friends call her Imelda :D) I consider myself financialy educated and successful and i know plenty like me.

Its called having a life as well as investing and being successful. It makes the rounded individual. Just because you consider people who do these things uneducated low lifes, doesnt mean that is the case. Maybe you should get out a bit more.

multi

10-07-2003, 11:37 AM

Wow !

This is all great mate, I really enjoyed your post.

The only thing I have troubles understanding - how you come to choosing your username? It just seem to be incompatible with TAB account.

Rounded individual - mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................

Les

10-07-2003, 05:24 PM

G'day Brains,

You said Just because you consider people who do these things uneducated low lifes, doesnt mean that is the case

I'm at a loss to understand just "who" the poster is that you referred to (refer to ".... because you consider people....") Is this the generic you that means "all of us"?? Or, just those who replied that you (Brains) happen to disagree with? Or was it just one specific individual ?

Whichever it was, it appears that "they" considered others to be uneducated lowlifes.....

....... and yet I don't see any replies where anyone else even mentioned this phrase - except you. Did I miss a reply somewhere?

I'm finding it hard to understand just what you (Brains) are getting at here...... :confused:

PS bloody English pronouns...... !!!

Regards,

cad

10-07-2003, 05:40 PM

Go Les,

Hear! Hear!:D

Cheers cad

brains

11-07-2003, 09:53 AM

Les,

The 'you' i referred to is Spiderman, re read my post and it is addressed to Spiderman. There is no direct mention of "uneducated lowlifes" but the tone of his post is self evident and the implication is clear. I found the following paragrah elitist, condescending, insulting and a dispaly of Spidermans lack of knowledge of life in the real world. Its almost un Australian!!

Spiderman wrote:

"Apart from keeping your money intact, staying away stops you reinforcing bad habits from the financially uneducated that typically populate such places. Once you've got good habits and sufficient confidence in them so you can't be influenced, then a casino/TAB/pub visit won't do any harm, particularly if it's treated as an example of what not to do and an opportunity to be thankful of your achievements. "

If he actualy went to a race meeting, city pub or casino he would see so many financially educated individuals he wouldnt know which way to look and while hes there he might just get a life.

cad,

Congrats on your most articulate and constructive contribution to the forum so far :D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les
[B]G'day Brains,

You said

I'm at a loss to understand just "who" the poster is that you referred to (refer to ".... because you consider people....") Is this the generic you that means "all of us"?? Or, just those who replied that you (Brains) happen to disagree with? Or was it just one specific individual ?

Whichever it was, it appears that "they" considered others to be uneducated lowlifes.....

....... and yet I don't see any replies where anyone else even mentioned this phrase - except you. Did I miss a reply somewhere?

I'm finding it hard to understand just what you (Brains) are getting at here...... :confused:

PS bloody English pronouns...... !!!

Spiderman

11-07-2003, 10:29 AM

On reflection, I think my earlier comments, though harsh are fair.

Note that I do not oppose people enjoying casinos, races, etc, but do agree with people weighing up what they value most, making provision for their future and taking control of their lives. Spending your life in a pub/Tab etc is hardly desirable or balanced if your family lives in poverty and has nothing for the future!

A couple of relevant points:

1. 'The Millionaire Mind', p 376 'Of the 30 lifestyle activities listed in the 12 month diary, one stands out as having the most significant inverse relationship with net worth. PLAYING THE LOTTERY. The higher a person's net worth the less likely he is to ever play the lottery'. This information came from a lifestyle survey of millionaires.

2. Recent Herald Sun reports on pokies. Studies show that they are concentrated in the lower socio-economic suburbs. The pokie purveyors are not dumb, and know where their machines make the most money!

Thus there seems to be an inverse relationship between gambling and wealth.

As you have pointed out, this does not necessarily mean that wealthy people don't gamble (look at Kerry Packer!). However for poor people with limited money and outlooks, putting money they can't afford down the pokie slot is a sure route to ruin. It also encourages the 'something for nothing' mentality, which is counterproductive. They might like doing it, but it's not necessarily doing them any good! But it's their choice, and they have a right to excercise this as you do yours!

I think we all agree that more people need more financial eduacation, and understanding of concepts like investing for the future and opportunity costs of various activities. Which for low income people can be very high indeed.

Peter

brains

11-07-2003, 10:37 AM

Spiderman, You have got to be kidding.

After rereading my previous posts, i stand by them and have come to the conclusion that you are a pompous, elitist wannabe who either cant afford to or too tight to lose a few bob on a bet, a beer or a couple of games of blackjack. The venues you mention are not as full of the seething unwashed proletariat blowing their money on gambling as you would like to imagine.

btw....the following sensationalist bit of tabloid writing of yours would do any Sydney Telegraph Mirror journilist proud. Did you go to extremes here to add weight to your weak argument?

"Spending your life in a pub/Tab etc is hardly desirable or balanced if your family lives in poverty and has nothing for the future! "

Aceyducey

11-07-2003, 10:44 AM

My personal wealh strategy doesn't involve getting rich through gambling so I have no need to spend much time in TABs, Clubs & at horse racetracks :)

Oh, and I regard alcohol as a crutch for those socially inept geek types brains talks about - don't need it so don't visit pubs much either now that the live music scene is virtually dead :)

And thankfully there are a multitude of other forms of entertainment out there.

It is possible to lead a balanced life and NEVER go into a club, pub or TAB :)

And Brains, watch what you read into people's posts - you have what seems to be a habit of reflecting your own beliefs and values onto others.

QUOTE 'There is no direct mention of "uneducated lowlifes" but the tone of his post is self evident and the implication is clear.'

This tone & implication is only self-evident to you :)

And I agree with the statement:
"Spending your life in a pub/Tab etc is hardly desirable or balanced if your family lives in poverty and has nothing for the future! "

It is absolutely true!!!!

Anything else read into the purpose of making this statement reflects your personal biases.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

brains

11-07-2003, 10:56 AM

Acey,

The pub live music scene has been in the ascendency for years now after the proliferation of pokies years ago.

If what your saying is true, then the 98% of people who enjoy alchohol must be socially inept geeks who need alchohol as a crutch.

Im not saying pubs, betting and an occasional visit to a casino is everything in life, i am saying its part of the tapestry of experiences that make a life whole and make the rounded individual and that there is nothing wrong with it and not everyone in pubs at races or casino has a starving family at home with no future, in fact you'll find the opposite is true.

Oh, and Acey you have absolutely the worse case of reflecting your beliefs and values onto others. I cant believe some of your preaching, self righteous, know it all posts. You even said yourself in a previous post that your posts are preaching, that was right after you described yourself as a 'serial entrepenuer"
whatever that is.

JoannaK

11-07-2003, 11:10 AM

Hi Guys,

Lets try not to go down the personal attack path here...this is a good thread, and it would be a shame to have it tarnished.

Aceyducey

11-07-2003, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by brains
Oh, and Acey you have absolutely the worse case of reflecting your beliefs and values onto others. I cant believe some of your preaching, self righteous, know it all posts. You even said yourself in a previous post that your posts are preaching, that was right after you described yourself as a 'serial entrepenuer"
whatever that is.

Brains, coming from you I know this must be correct - after all it take one... :)

How about we both agree to try to be a more tolerant of others' beliefs and more open to reading peoples' statements without reading our own views and biases into them?

I promise I won't accuse anyone of being elitist or unAustralian and I won't personally insult people on this forum if you don't.

BTW: A serial entrepreneur is someone who founds & develops businesses for a living - and property investment does qualify as a business in my book :).

Cheers,

Aceyducey

Sim

11-07-2003, 12:02 PM

I think a line needs to be drawn between those people who enjoy gambling for the game compared to those who become addicted to it... similarly those people who enjoy alcohol for the socialisation that usually goes with it compared to those who become addicted to it.

Yes, gambling and alcohol can become a crutch for people. Well balanced people can also enjoy these things without adverse consequences (except perhaps a few lost brain cells).

It becomes a problem when it dominates your life and prevents you from being all that you could be - and worse when it adversely affects others around you like family.

Then again, other things can also lead to an imbalance in your life. Becoming consumed with building wealth to the detriment of all others is also a sign of a lack of balance. Ever heard the phrase "take time to stop and smell the roses" ? At some point you have to live your life - and waiting until "retirement" to do that has its own issues.

Enjoy what you do - enjoy your life - enjoy your family - enjoy your friends... and most of all - enjoy contributing to our forum :D

brains

11-07-2003, 12:10 PM

BANG!! You hit the nail on the head. Very eloquently put Sim.

quoll

13-07-2003, 05:29 PM

Tim

From what I have seen these stats sound reasonable.

I work in IT, most of my work mates are well paid.
Most buy lots of cosumer goods.
Some invest.
Of those that invest some are into shares, some property.
The property ones most have only 1 IP, some have 1 IP at a time buy sell buy another. Some hold. There is only one other out of 100 or so who has more than 1 IP.

Went to one of those free 2 hour seminars, the guy asked the room of 250 or so who had an IP, 3/4 put up their hands, who has more than 8 IP, not many, who has more than 20 - 2 people left with there hands up and this was a lunch time seminar about property investing.

Once you have 3 or more IP's you are in a very small minority.

Just my 2c

Regards
Graeme

bbg2003

13-07-2003, 06:09 PM

It's also amazing how many of those "educated" people turn up to those share software seminars, racing software seminars, real estate seminars and get rich qwik seminars. They are probly the easiest targets.

As for me I don't drink(see Acey), don't smoke, don't go to pubs (same reasons as Acey), don't play lotto or gamble. And I'm not religious. I enjoy my work.

I believe in poeple, not things or saints. I'd rather have a chat over a coffee than go to the pub/club or the footy and drink or smoke that garbage. Good live music is always a goer though.

For me that's balance.

dtraeger2k

19-07-2003, 02:03 AM

Brains,

You always seem to have an extreme point of view and I have to admit i admire you and other people / things that aren't in the mainstream, so to speak. However, on this occasion you are disagreeing with both Acey and Spiderman, yet both have very valid points.

CULLED???.............lovely choice of word when referring to friends, im surprised you werent "culled" first for being such a tosser. I couldnt imagine a life where i only know property investors or any one type of people for that matter.
In response to that, I much prefer speaking to people who are financially educated as opposed to not. I have a girlfriend and a couple of good mates who are in the not section, this doesnt make me like them any less. I just get no joy out of telling them about this some kinds of things because they just dont get it. Someone called me arrogant once because i suggested that they should become 'financially educated' (shouldnt everybody?), tell me if you (dis)agree here?

In terms of gambling, what I think it comes down to is what you expect from it. To the financially uneducated, they probably believe that they're going to improve their financial situation out of it. Personally I dont mind going to a casino on occasion, especially when im interstate. This is because i find it fun -- Im fully aware it'll do nothing for my financial situation. Im fully aware that people of both catergories utilise these types of venues, however to think that theres only 2 catergories is being naive imho. Im not going to comment on alcohol/smoking.

Spiderman:

IMHO, if one has to avoid those kinds of places for the reasons you suggest, then one isnt financially educated.

Quoll:

500 people work at my office. Granted I dont know all of them, and probably never will. Yet I dont know of any who invest in direct property. Theres only a handful that I know of who invest in shares.

brains

19-07-2003, 06:14 AM

dtraeger2k,

Thanks mate, Im an extreme kind of guy....haha.

I disagree with your stament below because if what you say is correct then everyone should be into BMW cars or growing cactus or hang gliding or death metal music or whatever. My point is that money and 'financial education' isnt for everyone and neither is anything else. Some people just arent into money or (shock horror!!) property investing and theres nothing wrong with that.

To suggest everyone should be financially educated is a similar thing to Spiderman saying that people should not go to pubs, casinos and TABs.

To be financially educated is smart and responsible because todays world is so money driven but some people get so caught up in it they cant see the forest for the trees. (Im sure you read Sim's excellent post)

Thats why i dont believe in the 'millionare next door concept' but i can appreciate delayed gratification to a small extent.

You only have one life, so to me its all about making money and enjoying life and everything in it....NOW!!!.....and in the future. Not one or the other......they are not mutually exclusive.....much to the surprise of the majority of posters on here.

My sentimenbts will probably kick this dormant thread off again, but thats cool...im up for it :D :D

"Someone called me arrogant once because i suggested that they should become 'financially educated' (shouldnt everybody?), tell me if you (dis)agree here?"

suggo

19-07-2003, 11:53 AM

Brains I tend to agree with your point of view about having a 'financial education' is not for everyone, however as you stated yourself "todays world is so money driven", so wouldn't/couldn't that lead to the same situation as reading and writing?? Many years ago people could get by without having to read or write, nowadays if you can't read or write your in a pretty bad way.
With the world becoming so money driven a 'finanical education' in the future may very well be as important as reading or writing.

Just a thought!

Suggo

dtraeger2k

20-07-2003, 03:09 AM

Hi Brains,

I agree with you that everyone has different interests, and thats perfectly normal. However, i regard basic financial litteracy as a necessity as opposed to an interest. By time the people my age get to the current legal retirement age, it won't exist. Therefore, is it not survival of the smartest?

Suggo,

Thats right, but dont tell too many people hehe. We all need some tenants, right? :p Or does this message contradict with the one above :confused:

This thread has gone way off the track of 'percentage of pop who buys ips' in my opinion. Perhaps it should be split?

-Cheers

Dave

brains

20-07-2003, 05:40 AM

What do yoy mean by 'survival of the fittest'? I know some people who have low incomes and 'survive' just fine and are among the happiest people i know. They have kids, moved to the country &/or North Coast because they didnt want to raise their kids in Sydney. To them the constant battle to achieve material wealth is 'just surviving' and madness.

They have a simple lifestyle of family and friends up there and love it. They sell a bit of pottery now and then, he does a bit of handyman work in the area, makes beer, plays guitar in a local band. They have a fantastic life.

If you're referring to survival in retirement, then thats no different.
Just live a simple, non-materialistic retirement and be happy.
Dont confuse money with survival or better still dont confuse material wealth with happiness.

Youre probabaly wondering why im saying this and am also on this forum and interested in property investing . Well, the answer is that i like money and what it brings but i can accept that its not for everyone and i have an open mind. To me, what you are saying is like a millionaire saying they cant understand why everyone is not a millionaire. The answer is because its not for everyone and thats the way humans are and thats cool.

Get Rich or Die Tryin........:D

Originally posted by dtraeger2k
Hi Brains,

I agree with you that everyone has different interests, and thats perfectly normal. However, i regard basic financial litteracy as a necessity as opposed to an interest. By time the people my age get to the current legal retirement age, it won't exist. Therefore, is it not survival of the smartest?

Suggo,

Thats right, but dont tell too many people hehe. We all need some tenants, right? :p Or does this message contradict with the one above :confused:

This thread has gone way off the track of 'percentage of pop who buys ips' in my opinion. Perhaps it should be split?

-Cheers

Dave

plainsong

20-07-2003, 06:44 PM

Yes agree with that, different strokes for different folks,
everyone isnt here to concentrate on accumulating money -
there are other things to focus on in life -people arent better or worse because they arent interested in what might facinate ourselves,
Investing isn't everyone's cuppa, some would rather do other stuff, thats all.

suggo

20-07-2003, 07:08 PM

I agree with the different strokes for different folks! However you can't tell me that the majority of "poor" people are deliriously happy about the situation they are in finanically!! My bet is that most (most not all!) of the people who live a simple life live that way because they have no choice!

Brains I envy your friends and am very glad they have a wonderful life on their megre income, but I know of at least a dozen people who aren't happy with what they are earning and would like to live a life different to the one they have because of their income. So I believe that finanical education should become a must for all, not so everyone can become finanically independant or a multi, but so everyone then has a choice! What they do with this knowledge is entirely up to them but I reckon in the main it would be a damn site more useful to most than half the rubbish they teach us in school!

Just my two cents worth!

Suggo

dtraeger2k

20-07-2003, 10:25 PM

Hi Brains,

Good on them, really. You cant presume thats how they'd most enjoy life tho, if they dont know any other options exist. Just a thought, I dont mean to offend you / them at all.

-Regards

Dave

brains

21-07-2003, 01:18 PM

The relevant stamenet is 'didnt want to bring their kids up in Sydney'.
He had a pretty good middle management job and had a bright future but drcided to do the move for the simple life.

Why do you think no other options exist? There were and they knew them but decided on the simple non - materialistic life.

And no offence taken, but my point - in a nutshell - is to keep an open mind to life and to remember that as good as financial independence is, its not everything for all people and that includes lots of people who have a choice and decide on a simpler life.

In fact the North Coast NSW is full of people like that, ex successful business people - managers - investors - etc - most moved from Sydney to enjoy the beach and country. I think id like to do it one day - i know my wife would do it tomrrow.

Aceyducey

21-07-2003, 07:31 PM

A small point that seems to have been overlooked....

Financial freedom does not have to equal equal great wealth.

I've met people who own a few places outright & live off the rent.

They have no ambition to be wealthy, just enjoy the ability to be there for all their childrens' successes.

Becoming wealthy is an entirely different mindset to becoming financially independent.

However both require a good solid understanding of financial essentials (or rich relatives)

Most people I encounter WANT to be financially independent - many still want to keep working however :)

Brains, I would consider your friends on the North Coast a prime example of people who want their independence (and probably would like the financial kind too)....but aren't necessarily chasing wealth or want to give up their day jobs.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

Xtine

21-07-2003, 07:51 PM

Seems that the major difference of EVERYONE's humble opinion is the meaning of 'success'. I believe success a multi-layering thing, of which financial success is one component. I hope to retire with many IP's to keep me financially, but this may not mean that I will have achieved 'success' in life.

This is what the Poet, Ralph Waldo Emerson had to say about success:

"To laugh often and much,
To win the respect of intelligent people
and affection of children
To earn the appreciation of honest critics
and endure the betrayal of false friends
To appreciate beauty, to find the best in others
To leave the world a bit better,
Whether by a healthy child,
a garden patch
or a redeemed social condition
To know even one life has breathed easier
because you have lived.

This is to have succeeded."

Ya gotta laugh - (even that's achieving the first line of success!)

natmarie73

23-07-2003, 10:13 AM

There seems to be a confusion between "financial education" and "financial freedom or independance". I think that everyone should be financially educated even if they don't want to invest, become rich or retire at 30. Financial education is in my opinion the most important thing anyone should learn.

What causes the most marriage or relationship breakdowns? Money (or lack of). I can't believe that anyone wants to live their lives trapped in a spiral of consumer debt because they don't know how to manage their financial affairs.

While working at a large finance company I see many applications for personal finance both from low income earners as well as from high income earners. the similarities between the two is that a very high percentage of their income is already going toward paying off consumer debt. A good grounding in even basic financial education may prevent these people from becoming mired in debt or bankrupt which in extreme cases leads to suicide.

Nat:)