Making the Transition.....

[sbe]

More than once there's been posts asking about full time investors etc.

I'd like to hear from anyone who has made the transition from the "security" of PAYE, to full time investor (or developer, renovator - whatever).

How did you do it?
What did you need set up?
How much $ reserve did you have?
How did you eat?
Particular struggles / hardships?
Advice / warnings?
Strategies...
Anything else to be aware of?

:( Sigh - I really am sick of working....It gets in the way of playing with property....But the scarey step of moving away from the income - and how do you service loans, live etc!!!

Of course, anyone who hasn't done it yet, but thought out strategies - feel free to contribute !

Simon.

[kierank]

sbe,

I was asking the same questions when I was thinking of starting my own business. The best advice I was given was "Just do it". That is, resign and start today.

I now give the same advice to anyone who asks me how to start a business. Yes, there will be times when you won't sleep at night; there will be times when you can't pay yourself (years back, I went for two months without pay), etc, etc but, if you can make it thru those times, not only will you learn a lot, you will know that it was meant to be.

Am I glad I did it? In a word, yes!!! After 14 years, we now run a business with 8 staff (including myself and my wife), have some great products, some terrific clients, ...... Now, I consider myself unemployable.

I believe full time investing in property would be much the same.

KieranK

[duncan_m]

Originally posted by kierank
sbe,
I was asking the same questions when I was thinking of starting my own business. The best advice I was given was "Just do it". That is, resign and start today.


This echoes the likes of Robert Kiyosaki's thoughts etc.. where he relates his experience of sleeping in his car at night as he had no home whilst they built the business.. or some such tripe..

Perspective changes with 2 little kids, a 2yo and 3yo, the "just do it" line wears a little thin, I would never expose my children to the potential instability that such a move would bring.

So does anyone have any more realistic thoughts or stories to relate on the subject?


Duncan.

[JoannaK]

I agree with Keiran, you've just got to take the risk and go for it.

When I set up my property management business it wasn't really a matter of choice - I just had to start my own business. I was sacked from every single job I ever had (and I was only 23 at the time, and I'd had something like 8 different jobs - it came to the point where my resume looked ridiculous), and I needed to find some sort of income security from somewhere.

So, I had $3,000 in the bank, i bought a computer, the necessary software (which the supplier let me pay off in installments), I did some calcs about how much business I'd need to generate so I could at least pay my bills (I didn't even think about profit at this stage), and I paid my rent up for 6 months so I didn't have that added pressure. Then I went to work establishing the business.

I just did it - I did what I needed to do at the time to get the job done. I had the conviction and belief in myself that I could do it no matter what (plus a point to prove to those who thought I couldn't do it). Sometimes I had to get a night job to support myself, and sometimes i didn't. I had to sell my first IP because of the strain it was placing on me, but that was a OK too.

It's hard, and if I'd have known how hard it was, I probably would have been too scared to do it and continued to work for a wage, but at the same time, I had no choice but to do it. There were many nights when I just couldn't believe the dire straits I was in, but I always believed that it would get better, and it did.

The business took longer than I expected to get itself going and in the middle of it I had a jealous ex who took me to court over some business issues, which was very disheartening and draining.

One word of advice I would give to anyone considering doing something for themselves would be to make sure you've got a good support network. I was yound and alone, and I couldn't talk to anyone about anything I was going through. None of my friends understood, and my Dad just thought I was mad...his advice to me was "why kill yourself, go and earn your $600 a week and be happy". So, have a good support system, people who know what your goals and ambitions are, and just do what you have to do.

Am I glad i did it? I wouldn't have it any other way! Like Keiran, I am now totally unemployable. I just can not (and would not) work for anyone else except for myself. I don't need to worry about a weekly wage or a boss, or collegues or anything like that.

When I sold my business and jumped fulltime into development it wasn't such a difficult move as I had a reasonable financial base to start from, and good cash reserves, and started off small, and this time I had great support from Roy and our families.

Now, I'm crusing and could not be happier. I don't need to work, but I still do, and life is great.

So, as Nike says, Just do it! If nothing else, it will be the most fantastic and thrilling and exciting and terrifying experience in your life!


note: I just read Duncan's post - Duncan, you have a very valid point about childred and other dependants, and I guess in this situation, you would need to be much more mindful of how your actions will affect your family. I was lucky I didn't have that to worry about.

[WillG]

I haven't made the transition to becoming a full time investor but I have been forced to change jobs. I hadn't done an interview in years or made a lot of contacts but ended up with a better job.

Some people(like me) have to be forced into doing something to make it work. Giving up your PAYE job to transition into business or full time investing may just be a matter of 'just doing it'

[ani]

I enjoyed that JoannaK:)

I wear that "unemployable" tag also.

After years of working for my self, I went PAYG for 18 months and loathed it except for the regular paycheque and the great people.

I left a month ago and decided to go full steam ahead with property.

The PAYG experience taught me that I work better when I am hungry and out of my comfort zone and have to create opportunities and create income. I'm naturally lazy so need to provide my own kick up the backside:D

Yes it is a bit scary sometimes but also exhilarating!

So as you say "Just do it"

PS: I understand having dependents means providing for them but I still think you can create your own "hungry"mindset.

[beech]

good thread SBE,

just wondering Ani if you can tell us a little about creating opportunities and an income?
What did you do if you dont mind?

Darren

[natmarie73]

I don't have a high enough risk tolerance to just resign and start out on my own no matter how much I would love to - (and yes I would LOVE to be self-employed) But I am slowly working toward eventually being able to support myself and run my own business by studying part time and getting qualifications as an accountant, paying off as much as I can on my PPOR over the next 6 years so when I graduate I won't have to worry about being homeless, and also acruing as much property as I can while I am working for the man so that if I need to I have some equity or assets to sell, as well as rental income.

I guess it comes down to knowing what your risk tolerance is and working within it to do the best you can to improve your life or achieve your dreams.

Nat:)

[kierank]

Originally posted by duncan_m
This echoes the likes of Robert Kiyosaki's thoughts etc.. where he relates his experience of sleeping in his car at night as he had no home whilst they built the business.. or some such tripe..



Duncan,

I have never read any of RK's books but I can assure you that I did not make this post because I thought my comments were tripe.

I was deadly serious. In fact, one person I gave my "Just do it" advice to was my brother (10 years my junior). At the time he took my advice, he was working in a pizza shop (10 years experience). I told him to "Just do it". Now he owns a lovely PPOR by the bay in Brisbane, has two pizza outlets in Brisbane (turning over $1million pa) and has a goal to own 5 outlets and then retire before he is 40. If he didn't "Just do it", I believe he would still be working in a pizza shop for someone else. Every time I am with my brother, he (and his wife) thanks me for that advice.

Originally posted by duncan_m

Perspective changes with 2 little kids, a 2yo and 3yo, the "just do it" line wears a little thin, I would never expose my children to the potential instability that such a move would bring.



I was exactly in this situation. When I "Just did it" in starting my business in 1990, I had a daughter 6 yo and a son 4 yo. There were times as they were growing up that they were concerned that they were couldn't approve their schooling or even put food on the table. We always assured them that we would always have a roof over our heads (at one stage, we were seriously thinking of selling our home because we were short of cash), food on the table and afford their schooling (at times, we couldn't see how). Now the kids are 19 and 17. The daughter is in second year, full-time Uni with two part-time jobs (last year, she earnt over $11,000 and paying for her HECS as she goes). She has already asked about investing in property and we are looking at helping her in this area. She has inherited that "Just do it" attitude; we can see she will make a success of her life because of it.

Our son is in his final year at a well known (and expensive) private school in Brisbane; last Xmas, he went to a boarding school in Shanghei, China from late Nov until late Jan (his choice, not ours - no time for holidays for him). As a result of this trip, he has matured into a "man"; one that any father would be proud of. We remind both of our kids on a regular basis that it is our business that has allowed us to give them the education and the qulaity of life that they are receiving. Yes, we worked hard (didn't have annual holidays for years, worked public holidays and weekends, etc). Yes, there were times when we didn't have money, etc, etc. But without "Just doing it", we would NOT have what we have today!!!

Originally posted by duncan_m

So does anyone have any more realistic thoughts or stories to relate on the subject?



My thoughts and story was very, very real and those who know me know how sincere and giving I am (ask people from BIG). This is a very serious topic and I would NOT post tripe in this thread. I am glad to see that others have similar experiences to mine and support what I was recommending.

Regards,

KieranK

PS

I understand that some may say that the approach is risky. To me, the biggest risk is TO DO NOTHING!!!

[RPI]

I am preparing to go into property fulltime. My strategy is to put a years wages (net) into separate bank account with no passbook, keycard etc. I'll setup an automatic transfer into my living account to pay myself fortnightly wages as if I was still at work. Now there are better uses for my money than sitting in an account for a year but there are a couple of reasons for this:
-sleep at night factor
-supporting young family
-it gives me 12 months to make money

This gives a sort of balance between just do it and security.

[Aceyducey]

RPI,

Why not put that year's salary in an offset account against one of your mortgages...

That way you get a bonus 6% payrise for making the move :)

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[wayneh]

Like your thinking RPI!

Another possibilty with your wage for the year, is put it on an IP with a revolving mortgate (but limit it to your years salary)

But I am going a few steps further:
Paying of PPOR with subdivisions and Trick and Flicks all the time while trying to balance buy and holds with + CF until finacially able to do what I enjoy.
I started in Dec 2002 and am heading that way by early to mid 2004

Just my thoughts.

wayneh

[Queen Bee]

Originally posted by duncan_m
Perspective changes with 2 little kids, a 2yo and 3yo, the "just do it" line wears a little thin, I would never expose my children to the potential instability that such a move would bring.

So does anyone have any more realistic thoughts or stories to relate on the subject?


Duncan.

Actually Duncan I "just did it". I wanted to stay at home and look after my two youngest children full time and my partner had no formal qualifications. If I went back to work I would earn more than my partner but I decided I didn't want to miss my kids growing up. I have a 15 yr old son and I felt he missed out alot because I was a solo mother then and worked all the time.

My partner had a variety of jobs that paid minimum wage and was always getting laid off (not sacked). He got laid off from his last job because his boss didn't like his attitude (i.e. he was right). We were both really depressed, we had no money saved and a mortgage to pay, my Mastercard was ticked up to the hilt.

After about a week of both of us moping around I stood up one night and said "why don't we go into business and do what your boss was doing, but do it better, because I know we can.

There were all these obstacles in the way, put there by us. He's far more conservative than me when it comes to anything (I travelled around the world by myself when I was 23yrs). So I finally convinced him that we should do it. It wasn't as if we had any money to lose, we didn't have any money to spend either though. I tried to get a top up on my mortgage to start the business but they told me they wouldn't lend me any money because how was I going to service the mortgage (cos now there was no money coming in).

So then, that's how I discovered that you must think "outside the square to get what you want". The first time I rang the bank I had a gut feeling that they wouldn't lend me the money for a business so I had just rung up without telling them who I was. Because I had a plan in mind.

A week later I rang again, told them I wanted to put some new windows in my house and I needed $10k. That's fine they said, and 2 days later the money was in my account.

I must admit I did alot of research, found out everything I needed to know, and so we decided early on that I would run the business and he just wanted to go to work like an employee. That was fine with me. It's really horrible scarey when you first start, and there are some sleepless nights, and sometimes we have 49 cent spaghetti for dinner, (the kids love it). We just made sure that we didn't go into overdraft, and we got deposits for our jobs.

It's totally changed our whole outlook on life. We will never be the same people again, and even though sometimes, when we've got absolutely no money in the bank will still seem to fall on our feet. Our kids see more of us, my partner can now coach junior rugby for our sons team and we'll never go back to PAYE.

By taking that first plunge into business - it enabled us to quite easily take that first plunge into Investment Properties. Some friends were freaking out and others just thought that since we were in business we must be making sh..t loads of money to be able to buy property. They don't understand how you do it.

I don't feel that I was exposing my kids to potential instability - I was exposing them to life - I was exposing them to a better future - maybe a future where they wont have second thoughts about taking the plunge and "just doing it".:D

P.S. Since January, I've had another baby, paid off my own house and bought two IP's.

[Aceyducey]

Way to go Queen Bee!

We too did not get serious about investing until the first child came along....

Duncan, Children can give you more reasons to succeed (or at least a good kick in the backside). And they have no concept of what stable is anyway. Kids are happy with what they have until us adults teach them only to be happy with what they don't have :)

NEVER let your children become the reason you're not successful...if so, what will your future relationship with them be like?

BTW: working for the Man is also instable, you're actually far more secure working for yourself :)

Cheers,

Aceyducey

[duncan_m]

Originally posted by Aceyducey
Way to go Queen Bee!

NEVER let your children become the reason you're not successful...if so, what will your future relationship with them be like?



Acey, Queen Bee etc

Thanks for the additional thoughts and extra detail.. The kids certainly aren't holding us back. We've acquired many properties in the last few years.

The move from PAYG to Full Time investing is still a little way off despite the obvious success that some of you have with equally onerous and important dependents to think for.

Cheers, Duncan.

[Gordon Gekko]

Hi All,

Interesting thread. Here is my 2 cents worth.

Own our house, positive IP and three young children who mean the world to us.

We sold our 2nd IP, $50k profit to live on for the next two or so years.

That is right, we went part time in our jobs so we could be with our children whilst they are going thru a important part of life, Kinder, primary school.

Some might say, get more money for them and they will be better off.

You can never replace these years and i wouldn't miss them for any amount of money.

In two years time, there is plenty of time to make their future secure.

And whilst the kids are at school, we are planning for our future.

My 2 cents.....:D

Good luck to all

Gordon Gekko

[Mikhaila]

I reckon “Just do it” line is a bit overdone here. It is plain stupid to “just do it” without proper analyses and reasonable plans. Odds are heavily against you – just look at the rate of failure for small businesses statistic. I believe it often seams that you “just did it”, but in reality it wasn’t “just”. Let’s be fair to people who still PAYE. If you have an idea, passion, made competitor analyses, went through “what if “ questions, educated yourself on a subject than by all means go for it, do it, and do it now. Don’t let uneducated/lazy/jealous people to stop you.

You are MUCH better doing what you do best. If it is your day job – great, if it is full time investing – even better. Simon, you ask who made a transition to full time investor (renovator, developer …). This is a huge difference between full time investor and developer/renovator. When you change to renovator/developer you really change your day job nothing more. People above talk about setting small business or becoming self-employed. It is great, but I could not identify somebody who is investor full time. Am I wrong?

[kierank]

Originally posted by Mikhaila
I reckon “Just do it” line is a bit overdone here. It is plain stupid to “just do it” without proper analyses and reasonable plans.

Mikhaila,

I feel that proper analysis and planning is also overdone. When we bought our first business, we went to the bank for a loan. They wanted a Business Plan which had to include a Marketing Plan, an Operational Plan, a Staffing Plan, a Competitors' Analysis, Forecast Profit and Loss, etc, etc.

For heaven's sake, we were buying a takeaway shop that sold hot chickens and hamburgers. We weren't setting up a new airline!!! We went to another bank and they gave the loan based on my income.

KieranK

[Mikhaila]

Originally posted by kierank

I also feel that proper analysis and planning is also overdone...

For heaven's sake, we were buying a takeaway shop that sold hot chickens and hamburgers. We were setting up a new airline!!!


Hi KieranK,

Well, what can I say… I stand firmly by my view. Hope you never run out of luck. If you have tips for next round of power ball please share :)

[Aceyducey]

Originally posted by Mikhaila
I could not identify somebody who is investor full time. Am I wrong?

Mikhaila,

What do you define as a full-time investor?

I now work full-time in my investment business - meaning that I don't work full-time in anyone else's business.

My investment business includes property development work (reno end). I am not running a small business in this - I don't do this work for other people, only on my own properties (at this stage).

I know of a number of other people on the forum who also qualify as full-time investors under this definition and there are more who chose to continue at a day job despite having the choice to stop.

Yes I do have a business plan for my investment business. Spent six months putting it together - AFTER I stopped other employment. There is such a thing as too much analysis, but it's better to err on the too much side - less risk that way :)

As for your points on small business failure - I've started six businesses (excluding my investment business), several are deceased, the others no longer owned by me (either by ex-partners or onsold) - this is since I left uni, there were a few projects & one business before then :).

If you look at small business failure rates the quoted key reasons small businesses fail are lack of knowledge/education & lack of cash flow. But the key reason people don't start their own business is fear...of what? personal & financial failure.

A business failure is not a personal failure, it's a learning experience & while the small business failure rate is high, many of those people get back in there and go on to make their 2nd, 3rd or 4th business a success. And somehow, despite the pain, it is possible to survive financially - even bankrupcy is not the end of the world...I know people who had to go bankrupt several times before making their fortunes.

Finally, I believe you can learn what you need to know to be successful, you don't need to stick to what you have done well in the past.

I believe this because I've done it, I've seen many others do it & basically because we are all born knowing nothing and good at nothing. What you are good at is a choice, what you enjoy is a choice, whether you are successful is a choice.

So get out there and break free of your comfort zone!

And remember, it takes twenty years to become an overnight success :)

Cheers,

Aceyducey

PS: I really do have a tendency to preach at times don't I :) Sorry, I'm passionate about success & get concerned when I see a post that talks down peoples' chances of succeeding.

[JoannaK]

Originally posted by Aceyducey

What do you define as a full-time investor?

I now work full-time in my investment business - meaning that I don't work full-time in anyone else's business.

My investment business includes property development work (reno end). I am not running a small business in this - I don't do this work for other people, only on my own properties (at this stage).



Agreed 100%. Investing is work. Investing is a business. When you become an investor (which includes developer, renovator, flipper, wrapper), whether it be full time or part time, you are running a business. You must be business minded in all that you do. What AceyDucey does and what I do, and what others do on this forum is the business of investing, whether it be full or part time.

[sbe]

Thanks for the replies guys (in the non-gender sense).

In terms of just do it, that's half the reason I even have IP's.

{Sorry, this is going to be longish.....}

Advice for newbies - If I listened to what everyone said, I wouldn't own any. The what if's, how can you afford it, look how much you'd owe etc etc. would drive you nuts.

In the end, we figured the loan was 95% of the value. We kick in and reno a bit (worst house, nice court). At the time, the numbers looked pretty good, and really, it was going to cost us around $20pm to buy a house.

The reno was done by my wife (very hard worker), myself, and a little help from family. We set up TV/Video so that kids could be with us with the electronic baby sitter. I think at the time they were 3,2 and 0.5 years old. Ah the wiggles....

A lot of hard work, and a bit of sacrifice (I don't mind the kids seeing us work - they get to appreciate what's involved in all this), the house was worth $30,000 more than we paid for it (less $10,000 we spent). Strange how it still didn't click yet - DOH!

In summary - :eek: very nervous time for us, and a big leap of faith. We were doubling our debt etc, but looking back, best thing I ever did (wish I'd bought more then!!!)

I do have to be mindful of providing for family (Wife, 3 boys currently 9,7 and 5). You also need to take into consideration each person's personality. For some, just do it is exactly what they need. Others need heaps of analysis and planning. I'm probably somewhere in between....

My trouble at the moment is my IP's are neg. geared, so it needs income to feed it. The area I invest in is usually good rental demand and fairly good yield, although down with the boom, currently around 6% gross yield.

Of course, with my normal detailed planning (cough cough), I figured I had some equity, so just settling on another house now (finance just went unconditional, settle 30 days).

I've seen some of the cashflow + IP's - Brenda etc - where do you guys find these ! You inspire and amaze me!

Personally, until I can beat down some of the debt, I can't see how to make the jump - which is why I posed the question. Some of you guys have thinking that's inspiring - JAKK for example. How do you find land for 75K. I did a search (in Vic) - out back of nowhere and that's about it.

I know there's a way, just got to figure it out.....

PS. My bent - I'd love a business (don't know what, but something flexible where I can determine the hours, and get paid lots for doing stuff all), and rennoing properties (maybe develop - would like to do some units). My wife and I love seeing how a dud house can be made nice. Bad habbit - we do that for any house we walk into, including friends! Oh, and taking time off to be with kids, etc.

Thanks for the idea's guys, and keep them coming !

Regards to all,

Simon.

[Lissy]

Probably the only down side to quitting your job to go full time investing, is your ability to source loans. It may be a little harder and cost you a little more.
That needs to be factored in!
I'm a full time wrapper, and despite the strong positive cashflow, at the moment it's still my hubby's boring PAYG income that convinces financial institutions to lend me more money for more houses and more positive cashflow.
When that changes and the business cashflow is sufficient to keep securing loans and feeding us, hubby will be out of his job so fast they won't see him for dust...
So that's my plan!

[SEASON]

this question about how people make a transition from PAYG (or even from been something like a self-employed consultant) to going BIG................financially independent..............i mean not having to work.

has anyone of you guys ever thought of or actually interviewed successful people one-on-one? if yes, what was your experience?

(hopefully you guys see how my post is related to this thread)

[JoannaK]

Before I set up my business I asked for and got a meeting with John McGrath. He was basically unemployed with a vision when he started his agency, so he was the best I could think of at the time to get a few pointers.

I picked his brains for about 2 hours, and it was fantastic. He was so genourous about the info he was passing on. I walked away full of energy and enthusiasm and conviction and ideas. He gave me heaps of ideas on how to market myself, and grow the business.

[SEASON]

excellent, Joanna!

thanks for sharing your experience:)

interviewing a few successful people is one of the steps i'd like to take as i'm beginning my journey towards financial independence.

then, once i've done my hard yards and reached my goals (however long it takes), i'd love to be in the position when i'm asked to share my experience with others..............

actually, there are some great posts in the archives here from Joanna, Jakk Thewife and many others about how they made it. Fascinating reading- from real people

[Mikhaila]

>>>What do you define as a full-time investor?

In short, it is the nature of the income you have. If you have to work ( for yourself or somebody else) than it is a job/employment. If you choose to work and there is enough passive income to support you than it is full time investing. The work in both cases can be anything. If renovation/development is your cup of tee and you choose to do it – that is fine ! My apologies to all forum renovators if my previous post slightly hurt somebody. By my definition being self-employed, having your own business and still have to work is not quite good enough to call yourself full-time investor. And yes, Aceydusey, it all about the choice. Hope it defines enough what I mean by full-time investor.

DO NOT “JUST DO IT” – I re-read my post and can not find where it “talks down peoples' chances of succeeding”. I feel just the contrary – it should help people to succeed and make a choice – the informative one not a guess. I am passionate about the subject as well. I get concerned when see posts like “So get out there and break free of your comfort zone!” or “Just Do It!” or “NEVER let your children become the reason you're not successful...”. These are powerful, inspirational words but they can hurt far more than suggestion about making analyses and research. In fact, these/similar phrases used in sales scam seminars to push people. I feel it is not right. Especially, if you look at some your own postings it clearly confirms that you did not “just did it”. I repeat – it is unfair on new starters to bombard them with such phrases as it may give false hope.

I am self-employed(not real-estate related business) for the last six years, have two kids( 2 & 4). Invest in property(started in 1997/98) as it looks like the best way to financial independence and ability to have a choice. So far we have 5 properties. It was a time when I seriously traded the share market now I do not trade but invest but with a lot more knowledge behind my belt. Unfortunately, I “just did it” at the beginning and it was not a happy story. I love to be full time investor one day using my definition of the word.

Season, talking about interviews with successful people, there is a book you may like – “Ordinary Millionaires” by Jim McKnight. Wonderful inspirational reading.

[kierank]

Originally posted by Mikhaila

Hope you never run out of luck.

I never will. I read a book many years ago titled "How To Make Your Own Luck" by Bernard Gittelson. Basically, its mesage was that you make your own good luck - a philosophy I was lived for the last 10-15 years and which I pass onto others.

Originally posted by Mikhaila

If you have tips for next round of power ball please share

IMHO, a person doesn't need luck to play Powerball; they just need to be stupid. I don't play it so I can't give you any tips. Sorry.

KieranK

[Mikhaila]

Originally posted by kierank

IMHO, a person doesn't need luck to play Powerball; they just need to be stupid. I don't play it so I can't give you any tips. Sorry.
KieranK

It was a joke about the powerball tips unless you did not get it. So there is nothing to be sorry about :)

As for the philosophy, it sounds good. Hardly believe, though, the book teachers not to do proper analysis and planning. Well anyway, I understand and respect your point of view – “I feel that proper analysis and planning is also overdone”. You know mine as well. It is great to see two different opinions.

Cheers

[SEASON]

it's good to see differences in opinions on this forum - after all, it breaks uniformity and promotes healthy growth in us as individuals!

Mikhaela, i'll take a note of that book, thanks

anyone esle wants to comment on the topic of transition?

[sbe]

Definitions aside, some of the issues I see are:

* Money for living (need to eat, drive etc)
* Ability to get finance
* Ability to fund work
* Having appropriate deposits available
* Getting things balanced so the IP's dont require my money in.

My thoughts were if I have a sum of money, I could use part of that to live off, part to fund deposits / purchases and works, perhaps using some of Jakk's examples for development etc.

I think at the moment, the best I could arrange would be around $120,000 (pulled from equity, and would max out borrowings from Banks for quite a while).

So, if you had $120,000, a young family and debt to feed, what idea's can we come up with? Our cash burn rate is probably around $45,000-$50,000 after tax PA.

Any other issues I haven't thought of?

Thanks to all.

Simon

[ani]

Simon

Can you do what you do now part time or on a consultancy basis?
Say 2 days a week - Just do enough to pay for food and day to day expenses and keep your 120k intact for property stuff.

I have gone back to doing a bit of bookkeeping from home for clients. Also phone coaching an accounting programme which I can do from anywhere. I can basically do it as and when it suits me as long as I get the BAS' in:) Leaves me mostly free to go and look at places, do renos etc.

[Note to Nat - you could look at doing the same as me - there is a severe shortage of good bookkeepers - I turn down work all the time]

Think about what you currently do and see if there is any facet of it that would work in this way.

Cheers
ani

[natmarie73]

Thanks ani,

Yes, it is something I would definately look at doing. I have not started my accountancy degree yet but as I get more knowledgeable I will look at every opportunity that comes my way and would help me become self employed.

Perhaps you could send me some more information!

Nat:)

[WillG]

Hi sbe,

I see 'money for living' as the trickiest one to realise.

Do you currently have enough passive income from your IP's to live from ?

Agree with ani. Why go 'cold turkey' ? Work your way into it by going part time or take half a year without pay to see if it will work. You will probably have enough time to manage/maintain your IP's and prepare the large majority of your tax returns to reduce expenses.

Cheers

[ani]

Nat

PM on way:)

[natmarie73]

Thank you so much ani! :)

[sbe]

I was thinking of dropping off days from work. For a while I was working 5 days in 4 (Ie same hours as a normal week, longer days, take Wednesday off) that was pretty good.

Gave me one day off and same income.

Only trouble is, that can be cancelled due to workload (like until July at this point!).

That is certainly one of the idea's I've been thinking about for a while. Slowly dropping off one day, then another until maybe 2 days per week.

To answer to other question, my IP's are Neg Geared, so cashflow is negative - nothing to live off...:(

[WillG]

After reading a post on 'paying interest in advance' ... Would paying all or a proportion of next years interest in advance be a possibility. It may give you a great tax return this year and some good passive income for next financial year.

[SEASON]

sbe,

i know of someone who borrowed to cover his family's living expences.

he found a passive investor with money to finance him and did 2-3 large property trading deals splitting profit 50/50.

i'd probably do this if i had enough experience

cheers

[Splinter Wood]

Hi Sbe,

I think there are many people in your situation where you would like to leave the 'work force' and do your own thing.

What I notice though, is you don't appear to have a real 'plan' - just a shopping list of 'needs'.

Firstly, money and being wealthy will not make you happy - in fact probably the opposite is more common.

Secondly, I would strongly suggest you do some serious planning re your life by:

1. Establishing your Values and
2. Set you Life Goals.

(then get off your *** and DO IT)

I think you may need some help with this as it is not an easy task. Read some books, maybe do a course, and become familiar with the process, realizing that most people (over 95%) do not bother with this process - hence they all work for someone else !

Once you establish your true VALUES, you can then go about setting your REAL GOALS - and amazingly all those questions you asked at the begininng will be answered - and will also have a different meaning.

Good Luck

SW

PS: The harder I work - the luckier I get !

[duncan_m]

Originally posted by Splinter Wood
Firstly, money and being wealthy will not make you happy - in fact probably the opposite is more common.



Maybe its just me, but why do have a constant barrage of people who feel the need to step on the soapbox and sprout forth the above advice as though they have some deep and profound insight into life and money..

I see no value in your response Splinter.. what have YOU done and what is YOUR plan.. thats what the original thread was seeking; specific advice about how other people have gone about doing it.. Coming in late in a discussion and seeking to second guess peoples lack of goals and questioning their maturity about wealth offers no value and borders on being offensive in my humble opinion.

Duncan.

[Peter Parker]

You've all heard the expression 'from shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations'.

My theory is that (assuming you are or are becoming wealthy) about the the most important thing to do for your kids is to ensure that they continue this so that they can also live well in the future. This requires them to have a set of values conducive to success.

I doubt that this can be taught by lectures about 'the starving children in India', etc. However it can certainly be learned, mainly through parental example.

As a parent you have a huge control over their early memories (ie when the child is 4-6 years). Every person has a narrative about themselves that starts with their first memory. They consciously and subconsciously repeat it in their mind and it sets the starting point of how they seen themselves and their progress through life.

If the child's memory starting point is at a period when the parents are struggling, this can be a good thing. Especially when the parents are stating their aim to adult visitors and you're within earshot.

In my case I was brought up in a single parent home. I first heard my mum state her aim of owning a house & 7 acres of land when living in a housing commission house in 1982. She quit her secure PT job the next year, moved to where she wanted to live, rented a house for a year and got a new PT job.

One of the worst houses in the area (being the only one that could be afforded) was purchased and paid off within 9 years. This was then sold (with OK cap growth) and used to buy the sought for 7 acres around 1992. The aim of 10 years ago had been realised. And the capital growth on that place has been at least as good as anything in Melbourne over the last few years! Expenditure was tightly controlled, though it included a 6-week overseas trip in 1986.

It was not until I had left home that I realised that though our material living standards were lower than for most other people, the achievements detailed above were considerable (IMHO), and I regard myself as fortunate to have witnessed them.

It's too early for me to regard myself as a success. However if your kids have memories of your achievements akin to the above, I believe that this should help innoculate them against the 'shirtsleeves syndrome'. This is one of the greatest gifts you could give. And the chances are they won't hang around asking you for money as they'd have enough of their own!

Peter

[kierank]

Originally posted by duncan_m
Maybe its just me, but why do have a constant barrage of people who feel the need to step on the soapbox and sprout forth the above advice as though they have some deep and profound insight into life and money..

I see no value in your response Splinter.. what have YOU done and what is YOUR plan.. thats what the original thread was seeking; specific advice about how other people have gone about doing it.. Coming in late in a discussion and seeking to second guess peoples lack of goals and questioning their maturity about wealth offers no value and borders on being offensive in my humble opinion.

Duncan.

Please wait while I get of my soapbox .... :)

I thought Splinter was offering good advice. Reading between the lines, I believe what Splinter was saying is as follows:

1. A lot of people work really hard (either for themselves or others) but they don't become wealthly.

2. Others work really hard (once again, either for themselves or others), become wealthly but they aren't happy.

3. Then there are others who may or may not work hard, may or may not become wealthly BUT they are happy.

If I understood Splinter correctly, I believe he/she is proposing that if one establishes one's core values and sets one life goals, then one will be happy as/when we achieve them

I think this is good advice. For some of us, we will need money to achieve our life goals (not always the case, look at Mother Theresa). For some of us, we will work hard to earn that money (others will try the sharemarket, investment property, the horses, Lotto and some even try robbing banks - not my recommendation).

Finally, as each of us will have different core values and different life goals, one would expect our lives to be different. In my own family of two brothers and two sisters (basically the same upbringing), we are all different - all have different core values, all have different life goals, all have different lives. That is what makes the world so interesting.

Sorry, I am back on my soapbox again!! Bugger!!! :D

[MLC]

Just do it? Sort off.

We've set a date to get out of the race and into investing full time.

THE PLAN

Short Term
Save
Learn

Medium Term
$150K in cash (currently sitting in 100% offset)
50/50 joint venture with another investor (similar savings).
Combined 900K in equity, debt 400k.

Buy residential houses for renovation, sell some and keep some hopefully turn a nice profit.

String in some Developments along the way.

Borrowing Low Doc at 7% on 70% LVR will cover type of property we will be looking at.

Cash flow/budgets forecast conservatively for next 2 years for the JV team.

Use $100K for backup/living costs, wife no kids low living costs, backup money should last for 3 years worst case with no profits from ventures.

Current IP's interest prepaid until July 05.

Long term goals......

Still undefined

JV Team skills Consist off:
Experience in building
Experience in Planning/buildings
Arms & legs
Great Attitudes
4 Drivers Licenses

JV Team needs:
More knowledge on Trusts (just bought "Trust Magic")
Financial structure setup (still to seek professional advice)

Fall back position 2 (or maybe 4) members of the JV go back to work to provide cash flow.

Deadline Dec 2003 then we'll "Just Do It".

Cheers:)

MLC

[duncan_m]

Originally posted by MLC
Just do it? Sort off.

Fall back position 2 (or maybe 4) members of the JV go back to work to provide cash flow.

MLC

MLC, thanks for that, nice detailed information, lots of value.. How did you manage to find 4 buddies that are that trusting, close and compatible to pull that plan together? Hate to be one of the Joint Venturers that ends up back at work!

Duncan.

[Jakk]

G'day all,

The term "Just Do It" has earned some notoriety in recent years. Seems to be used quite often.

Does it mean throw caution to the wind and just get on with it or I would think more like, get off your **** and have a go at something that you have a strong belief that you can succeed at.

This is, believe it or not, a Property Investors Forum, just look at the top of the page, The Golden Rule that almost everybody agrees on is the neccessity to do your Due Diligence prior to making a decision.

Another Rule that often is mentioned here is the one where, If your decision will cause you many sleepless nights, then that decision is not right for you.

So if we put these 2 rules together, we would be going against all the good advice that we come in here for, ...if we Just Did It.
To leave our jobs and put our family in an unstable situation WITHOUT first determining that there was good reasons to believe strongly and I do mean strongly, that we would better ours and our families position by doing so.

I am all for chasing and living your passion, whatever that may be, but we also have to be responsible and this responsibility should not be taken lightly.

So where does one find the answer, The answer my friends is within yourself, only you will know if the time is right, no one else can determine that for you.
How strong is your passion, do you have the burning desire required to fulfill it to the max......then go forth and prosper.
Do you have doubts?........if so, ascertain the worst that can happen and have a plan B. (going back to work for the man aint that bad, just the pride hurts a lot).

We only have one life, and I believe life is a game, not a gamble, a game. Don't gamble with your life, but do learn to play the game........and have a heap of fun doing so.

stepping off the soapbox..............NEXT...

regards

[Brenda Irwin]

Well said Jakk,

You know half the fun of having ips & a job is the claims for the expenses & depreciation on the ips against the tax paid from wages. It's like xmas when the big fat cheque comes from the ATO for my husbands tax return.

Unfortunately, I don't have a paid job & my tax agent says I have to pay tax to claim a tax loss. No sense of humour, my tax agent.

Cheers Brenda:D

[always_learning]

There are 168 hours in a week, most people "work at work" between 40 and 60 of them, leaving you with around 110 hours every week to do other stuff. The good news is that you can choose what you do with your 110 free hours, waste it watching TV, getting pissed etc or use it profitably. My question is "Are you doing all you can do with the time you have?". In many ways I think you can move into another area in a serious way and keep the day job, its not easy but what progress comes easy?

After you have made it a success then you can think about quiting the day job.

Dont ask me to rate how I am going with the above!

[bkw319]

I like your post Jakk. :)

[Mikhaila]

Always_learning, I couldn’t agree more with you. Good and very wise words indeed.

Talking about practical advice, we have a general plan and guiding principals:
1. Calculate how much is required to cover your today’s needs and reasonable wishes per year. This is a net amount you need to get from investments annualy to stop working. This figure is 2.4mil for us.
2. Once the first step is done the rest is really easy. This is just a matter of accumulation of income earning assets till you reach your target. In gross terms we are more than half the way to the target. In net terms only quarter of the way.
3. Have more than 12 months living expenses sitting somewhere (offset/similar account preferably if you have mortgage on PPOR). We keep between 12 to 18 months reserve. The magic 12 is purely due to our believe that it is enough time to sort whatever needs to be sorted and continue with the journey. Also really bad economic times unlikely to be around for more than 12 months or so.
4. One step at a time. Concentrate on your next deal whatever it is. Put all your resources, power and skills. No distractions or excuses. Once a deal closed, have a rest, take your time to relax.

[Bill.L]

Hi all,

I know I'm late jumping into this topic now, but just have to have my 2.2c worth.

I'm in the just do it camp. I may take a lot of time and study and false starts, but eventually if I believe in something, I'll "just do it". Will it mean losses?

Yep-sure I've had many of those but I pick myself up and continue, often having Jakks plan B to fall back on.

A snippet of information from one of Jack Schwagers "Market Wizards" has always meant a lot to me. This person used to volunteer at an aged care nursing home and talked to many people near the end of long lives. He found that the only regret that any of them had was in NOT doing something that they had always thought of trying. None of them seemed to regret the mistakes of things that they had done.

bye

[Ned]

Likewise, I'm coming in late - apologies...

I was interested in your post always_learning - my view is that while we may spend 40 - 60 hours at work, we actually waste a lot of it, for a variety of reasons - getting a coffee, talking (socially) to others, procrastinating, not have DETAILED plans and SPECIFIC goals.

I've been guilty of this and have found that in times when I'm under a lot of time pressure, I get more done in a short space of time that I have in the past week. This is the 80/20 rule at work - 80% of our achievements come from 20% of our effort, 80% of our problems come from 20% of the causes etc etc.

My point is that we all have the same amount of time, it's just that some of us use it well, and some less so (I'd consider myself in the "less so" camp a lot of the time).

For example, how is it that Brenda bought 20 houses, kept a job, raised a family, presumably had a good time etc, while others (me included) had the same time, probably worked as hard, but achieved a lot less? The same can be said for any high achiever... it's use of time.

I think most people need to undergo 'time revolution' as opposed to 'time management' - theres no point doing the same things "more efficiently" - In my case i've realised that 80% of my results have come from just a fraction of my effort (not even 20% of my effort).

So, based on the above, my plan is now to focus on exactly what I want to achieve, and make specific plans to do it, and not get led off the path along the way. This includes being disciplined in eliminating 'time wasting' things which i find easy or enjoy, but which don't help me reach my desired outcomes.

It has taken 6 months of lurking on this forum, while at the same time re-evaluating my long term goals, working out exactly what I want in life, talking to my wife, and interviewing/talking with a lot of people who I think are successful in their area. You may say that this has been 'wasted time' - in fact the opposite is true. I now have a plan for the next (hopefully) 60 years, and its taken a (ralatively) small investment of my time and focussed effort.

So now I don't undertake anything that doesn't meet these requirements. This has been very difficult personally for me to do, as I'm the type who wants to help everyone and be everyone's friend. However as a result, I now feel in control and I'm enjoying a sense of directing my life - I've still got a long way to go, but I'm on the road.

So my philosophy/guiding light now is look at what you are doing (before you look at how you are doing it), and ask.... is this the BEST use of my time, given what I want to achieve.

sorry for the legth of this, and thanks for the opportunity :)

Ned

[kierank]

Originally posted by Ned

So my philosophy/guiding light now is look at what you are doing (before you look at how you are doing it), and ask.... is this the BEST use of my time, given what I want to achieve.



Ned,

Welcome aboard. I thought your post was great.

As well as looking at WHAT you are doing before you look at HOW you are doing it, I believe the first and most important question is WHY you are doing it (that is, what is the purpose, the outcome, the impact of what you are doing).

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Ned]

thanks keirank, couldn't agree more, appreciate your reply
Ned

[sbe]

Thanks for all the input guys.

Splinter - I did have a plan - set in early 2000, just after getting IP#2.

From memory (its at home) it was (in 2000 dollars)
Rental income of around $20,000
Managed Funds $100k @ 10%
StockMarket $100k @ 6%

Total income $36,000 before expenses, and no debt. Timeframe to complete was by age 40 (currently 35)

I've passed the income part for the property (did that with IP#2).

I've since adjusted the plan - more money (KIDS!) and time- More IP's, the managed funds I had are now the same as when I bought them 2 years ago :( and I don't have the time to properly learn and monitor the stockmarket - yet.

I agree with several of you that its all what you do with your time though. In the last 12 months we've fixed up one IP from bad tenants, renovated & landscaped another, done work on another, worked on family home, and about to settle on one more for good luck, which will need work. No wonder my house isn't finshed yet!

In terms of making the transition - I probably know the answer already - but didn't want to put too much detail up front as they may limit peoples idea's. Plus, I was seeing if there was anything revolutionary I hadn't thought of.

For my personal SANF - I take my responsibility to my family very seriously, so nothing that could be too bad for them. Having said that, it wouldn't hurt the kids to see some hard application either.

I do appreciate all the idea's and feedback. I think it's also helpful for anyone else pondering the same thing.

For me, the hardest thing was having no mentor. This is all flying blind for me, and I've only discovered RDPD, Jan Somers and this forum very late in the peice, so couldn't get advice from here.....I'm also not used to sharing personal information.....

I figure it's a while longer in PAYE, at least until I can change from -ve gearing.

Encouragement for others...
To think, I was told at age 23 from RE Agent that the best I could hope for was a small shack out back of nowhere......

Thanks guys.

Simon

[darren b]

After many years dreaming about it, I went full time into real estate full time 15 months ago.

How did you do it? - did about 30 wraps to replace my previous income. Reduced my expenses. Sold all my negative geared properties which were eating me alive. Looking at getting into bigger deals now, such as commercial, but I have very strict rules in that I need at least 12% return.

What did you need set up? - a minimum of 60k per annum in passive income. I dont need a big lump sum sitting in the bank, besides I'd use it anyway to buy more property.

How much $ reserve did you have? - bugger all, but plenty of passive income. Money in the bank is overated. I get wrappees cashing me out regurarly anyway.

How did you eat? - no problems. Have a wife and kid to, so im not on my own.

Particular struggles / hardships? - not really, although a bit more challenging to get finance with property being my sole source of income. This will get better in time.

Advice / warnings? - make sure you replace your job income with passive first. Start of with small deals first and graduate to the bigger deals slowly. I'm in the process now of moving upto bigger deals. Get a mentor/mentors who have been very successful investors.

Strategies... - wraps and true positive cashflow properties only. All my alligator (neg geared properties) were liquidiated, to fund the positive ones.. I have done a few renos, but got bored with dealing with unreliable tradesman.

Anything else to be aware of? - take your time, its not a race. It doesnt happen overnight.

[sbe]

Thanks Darren. Informative, reassuring (given you've got family too), and instructive.

I can see your logic on the neg gear stuff, but I'm still loathe to get rid of current property for a few reasons. Costs in selling, loss of further growth. Some are neg geared by choice to free up PPOR a bit.

Plus, I actually like them all. I've even lived in one for a year between houses. I only buy places I'd be willing to live in myself.

I agree it's best (in my mind anyway) to build up passive income to soften the jump.

Finance - low doc's or something alternative?

Cashlfow Positive - If in Vic, rough area? Rural?

Thanks Darren.

[darren b]

I can see your logic on the neg gear stuff, but I'm still loathe to get rid of current property for a few reasons. Costs in selling, loss of further growth. Some are neg geared by choice to free up PPOR a bit. - thats ok, whatever suits you. I just didnt see the point of holding a property that was worth 180k, that rents for $170 per week.


Finance - low doc's or something alternative? - you name I've done it all. Low docs were my last resort, did about half a dozen. My financials are ok to get 80LVR from major banks, but definately now have to stay away from mortgage insurers.

Cashlfow Positive - If in Vic, rough area? Rural? - regional, outer melbourne. some rough areas, but those areas have double too. I bought alot before the boom.

Also looking overseas now. Having the time to travel makes you realise rental returns in australia are a joke.

[XBenX]

Originally posted by darren b
I can see your logic on the neg gear stuff, but I'm still loathe to get rid of current property for a few reasons. Costs in selling, loss of further growth. Some are neg geared by choice to free up PPOR a bit. - thats ok, whatever suits you. I just didnt see the point of holding a property that was worth 180k, that rents for $170 per week.

i think the idea would be sell it if its not going to grow at a significantly faster rate than your +ve property

but keep it if its is growing at a significantly faster rate than your +ve IP (if you can afford to hold it)

Originally posted by darren b

Cashlfow Positive - If in Vic, rough area? Rural? - regional, outer melbourne. some rough areas, but those areas have double too. I bought alot before the boom. [/B]

thats the way to do it.... but is this a long term play for you ? when will it double again ? sure its grown 50% a year now but what about the previous 20 years ?

From what Ive read and researched the growth rate of these properties is not the same as CG type properties over the long term

if someone can show me where Im going wrong and CF +ve stuff does grow at the same rate as CF -ve CG orientated property over the long term then Im IN... im selling up and going CF +ve (maybe im just leaving something out)

[Sim]

One of the best "soap box" type threads I've read in a long time - keep those opinions and suggestions coming.

[Splinter Wood]

Gee Duncan,

Sorry for jumping on the 'soap box' Perhaps you shouldn't invite anyone to contribute in the future(Q2). Apart from that, the post was for Sbe - not you. As far as acheiving the status the thread is about - maybe I have done so wise one. Did you bother to think about that ??

If you don't like my post - fine -no sleep lost here. No need to reinforce your ignorance though - as you obviously missed the point. The advice requested, and hence shared / given - has substantial value to most individuals.

Many of these people however, may not yet realize the value of setting plans - and even less, the importance of underpinning any plans with values. You have quite succinlty demonstrated you are one of these people - especially if you took offense.

Now you have a reason to send a nasty reply. Quote away !!!

SW

=======Relevant quotes============


QUOTES
Q1. Of course, anyone who hasn't done it yet, but thought out strategies - feel free to contribute.
Simon.
Q 2. So does anyone have any more realistic thoughts or stories to relate on the subject?
Duncan
Q 3. Maybe its just me, but why do have a constant barrage of people who feel the need to step on the soapbox and sprout forth the above advice as though they have some deep and profound insight into life and money..
I see no value in your response Splinter.. what have YOU done and what is YOUR plan.. thats what the original thread was seeking; specific advice about how other people have gone about doing it.. Coming in late in a discussion and seeking to second guess peoples lack of goals and questioning their maturity about wealth offers no value and borders on being offensive in my humble opinion.
Duncan.
============END QUOTES============

[sbe]

Splinter wood (how did you get that one?)

Relax - I for one didn't take offence at your post. It is a reasonable post to question plans (although you did assume a little ;) - like that I didn't have one. I did - just didn't advertise it).

The thread was as much for me as anyone else.

I deliberately left it open and little detail to get everyone thinking. I think we got a good cross section of covering the basics (ie a plan!), to more advanced stuff.

While I knew the likely outcome, I just thought I'd see if anyone had an angle I didn't.

For example, using cap growth into cashbonds or simply borrowings to support myself.

No harm in getting you guys thinking outside the square. It helps everyobne, as this is a public forum. We all grow together :D

Cheerio

Simon.
(Who has to work a while yet.....:( )

[Splinter Wood]

Thanks Simon,

Understood anmd appreciate you feedback. It's OK I am relaxed, occassionally need to fire off the odd angry shot.

One important thrust on my initial post (When Johnny came late) - was that if you have your values in place, all the decisions i.e. what to do, how to do it, and when to do it, will appear. Hence maybe one of your motive behind the thread.

One real gem and often unheard advice was that you need to establish that passive income. Many retirees and would be retirees don;t understand this and they retire with a lump sum with a light calculation of cost of living over and estimated time frame - but they often come to grief realizing the increased cost when you are not working. Obviously you would be working still, but in your own show.

The idea to start off small and let time take care of the natural increases the property business will afford you. As such you need to survive this period, and still enjoy life and your family i.e. without the stress of 'we haven't made it yet' or 'we are going to be on poor street for a while' kinds of fears.

Having solid values in place will prevent you swaying from the mission and avert poor decisions which are commonly made when people are under duress i.e take too big a risk, jeopardize the business.family, investments etc. It will also give you peace of mind and confidence that you are doing the right and not wasting time (also refered to by a poster in this thread)

Being your own Property guru is still a business and so should be treated as such. Note the number of new business failures is very high (75 - 85%). Main reason.............. cash flow.

My philosophy on this is work out an 'optimal' level of any business and aim to stabilize your business at the optimal level. If you need to expand, then set up a separate unit and set it running with same view. Bit like a mum n dad corner store which is always busy and lucrative. They don't usually buy the house next door and build a bigger shop. Most suffering and failure, is due to over expansion. I know I am dreaming - but the world would be a better place if this was a standard business principle.

One thing at least is we would have lots of nice corner stores. Wouldn't it be nicer if we have to go to supermarkets ??

I miss the family run butchers and bakers days.

All the best.

SW

[crusty]

Paitence.....

Thats all it takes and before you know it your baker will be back down the end of the street not in some huge Lowy shopping centre ...

We have to remember that life is a cycle, at the moment your baker is in a shopping complex or is that everyones Bakery , as all the malls are now excactly the same.

So a few more years and we will see the local Baker back on the strip shop with an individual identity and no doubt much cheaper rent than our 3 richest person in Australia charges, and a Face to greet you in the morning ......:)


Thats my DREAM as i own a local Bakery and i hope that is why People want to come to my Bakery.



Crusty

[kierank]

Originally posted by crusty
Thats all it takes and before you know it your baker will be back down the end of the street not in some huge Lowy shopping centre ...



Take it easy :D :D. My kids own shares in Westfield Trust (bought with their child endowment money) and they have made some very good dough (all pun intended!!!) from these shares over the last 18 years. Same as my thoughts on the banks - don't put your money in their savings accounts as a longterm investment - buy their shares instead.