Are poor people evil?

Alrighty, I *finally* found it - been looking for it for a few days and was really bothering me. Anyway, here's one for all the conspiracy theorists. It's an excerpt from the book 'The Best Democracy Money Can Buy' by Greg Palast and he's being told a little story by one Joseph Stiglitz - former chief economist at The World Bank, who grew a conscience and now fights for the other side. Here's a link to the guy's webpage so you know I'm not making him up - http://www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/bio.cfm.

The excerpt is on page 154 in the chapter 'Sell The Lexus, Burn The Olive Tree' and is the last paragraph on that page (in my edition anyway).

'For example, Stiglitz told me about an unhappy meeting, early in his World Bank tenure, with the President who had just been elected in Ethopia's first democratic election. The World Bank and IMF had ordered Ethiopia to divert European aid money to its reserve account at the U.S. Treasury, which pays a pitiful 4 percent return, while the nation borrowed U.S. dollars at 12 percent to feed it's population. The new President begged Stiglitz to let him use the aid money to rebuild the nation. But no, the loot went straight off to the U.S. Treasury's vault in Washington.'

Note that this only happened in the last ten years or so, as Stiglitz worked at The World Bank from 1997 - 2000.

Well there you have it. Straight from the horse's mouth. Now I know that there are going to be people that claim it's all 'lies' or 'conspiracy theory nonsense'. Whatever. A statement from the man who actually made it happen - proof that the United States Government stole aid money from a nation for profit.

This happens all over the world. It's happening everyday. Money and assets are continuously being siphoned from the poorest countries and given to the rich, who often use them to make money from the people they stole from. How can anyone honestly believe that people living in poverty (hell, even people who have jobs that pay a sustainable wage) in these countries have a choice when the richest countries in the world strip them of everything they own?

Mark

Aceyducey said:

Faulty logic - again you're taking a few facts, adding a twist and coming up with a conclusion that simply matches your worldview. If you can accept that others may be incorrect, can you also accept that your beliefs could be?

Aceyducey

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Dear Aceyducey,

1. I did not "originate" that belief. It was translated from a Chinese proverb. While it may sound "foreign" to Westerners, nonetheless it is popular proverbial wise sayings among the Chinese peoples.

2. Previously, I did not understand the logic and wisdom behind this saying and belief, when I was young. However, from my own life experience and reading I now begin to understand why it is naturally so and realise the wisdom behind this saying.

3. You need not agree with me on this;- nor is it important to me whether you agree with me or not.

4. Yes, I do allow that my personal worldview and opinions can be wrong at times but definitely not everytime, I hope... that is why I always look forward to hearing your/other people's views to see if there is something new that I can learn, re-learn, revise and correct where neccessary, as far as my own personal thinking is concerned.

5. I shall look forward to learning from you regarding how to truly "Listen without filters"

6. Thank you.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

Kenneth,

I always enjoy your posts. You are one of the most open, humble people I have ever come across in my life and it's a joy to read your thoughts.

Mark

This is the first time I've read this thread because from the title it appeared that we were just going to bag out poor people for their negative attitudes yet it appears that we can take RK's message and apply it to the greater universe.

RK was not relating this proverb to the whole world and everyone in it. He was sighting the example of the US, not that different form Oz, where the government funds 'unprofitable' agendas. He pointed out not just the tendency to fund programmes for the poor but also the corporates.

He was giving an example in a bubble that the amount of government funds given to 'support' the poor and other activities would be better spent on other agendas.

Funding fourth generation unemployed does not decrease unemployment. Giving money to people who do not know how to make it grow is a waste of resources. In the example from the bible, the master was upset when he was given his money back yet the government gives money away daily without any expectation of a return let alone break even.

This approach is like giving someone who has lost their arm aspirin for the pain. The asprin thins the blood and makes the person die sooner, while never actually treating the injury.

What needs to be done, I do not know. I only know that continuing to give money to those who squander it and then expect more is not the answer.

Certainly there will always be people who need our support, we are not all born equal and we are not all given the same opportunities in life. When a challenge comes some will fold while others will be emboldened.

I believe the problem that RK is highlighting is not that people get brought down because of challenges, it is the very opposite. That people do not grow and improve in our country because of the lack of challenges.

Regards

Andrew

Kennethkohsg said:

5. I shall look forward to learning from you regarding how to truly "Listen without filters"

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I would too.

It appears to me that it is either very difficult or impossible.

It would put everyone in a state of perpetual questioning in which no assumption is safe nor sharable.

Every nuance of every word in every sentence would be contestable.

So would non-verbal intonations, body language and questions of motive.

If we deconstructed everything all we might be left with is a pile of rubble that we'd have trouble putting it together again.

We'd have gone on so many literary wild goose chases that we've forgotten about the initial matter at hand.

We would all end up neurotic!

It appears to me that any worthwhile project, and even civilisation and culture itself requires shared assumptions, theories and even, to use an unfashionable word, prejudices.

In some cases these can indeed be limiting. However in other cases they comprise the firm blocks on which we can climb to see higher than others before.

Peter

Spiderman said:

It appears to me that it is either very difficult or impossible.

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The filters are part of what gives you the concept of "I, My, Self".

They are integral to your current being, but there are those that believe, that being able to "step back" and "observe" those filters in action, will begin to lead you on the path to enlightenment.....

e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassana

Cheers,

The Y-man

Great link (to Vipassana) Y-not-man...very interesting.
many thanks.

Kennethkohsg said:

5. Unlike the Chinese people's adaptive way, your parents have also chosen to continue with their own capitalist thinking albeit in the new migrant host country in Australia, as they are probably more familiar with this mode of operation, rather than choosing to stay back in China to operate under Communism/Socialism.

6. In other words, they have opted to continue with their own "capitalist" way of thinking, albeit carving out their own niche in the new homeland in Australia. By their actions, they have also rejected the Communist/Socialism way of life.

8. Have we pause and ask ourselves how the Mainland Chinese people see the overseas Chinese?... Are we neccesarily better off today than those who have chosen to stay back in Mainland China?

9. There are many "rich multi-millionaires" in both these countries under discussion;- though the way of wealth creation may be totally different under these 2 different political systems.

10. Who, then, are we to conclude whether Capitalism or Socialism is better?...Whether we are rich by our own human efforts or/and by our own spiritual legacy? Whose beliefs are we to accept and choose?... Therefore, I say, "to each his/her own".

11. Let us not think that just because the tribal people in Africa run about openly without much clothing, they are very "poor" materially and need our help. The truth is that the tribal peoples have simple needs and lifestyles and that there are also some "rich" people among their midst, in their own ways, if we truly bother ourselves enough to sincerely seek to understand their cultures from their perspective and not from our own narrow perspective. Thus, I says, "one man's meat is another man's poison."

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Hi Kenneth,

We're not from Mainland China. My family left Cambodia as refugees. I really didn't want to reveal my precise history and details because the Cambodian community is rather small, but I have done so, to straighten out your assumption that we're from Mainland China, which is not the case. If you've read a history of Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge episode with Pol Pot, I would be disappointed if you can still favour their version of 'communism'. I'm lucky that my parents are still alive considering the majority of their colleagues/family members and friends were executed or died of starvation. So to clarify, I really find communism distasteful.

It's a myth that people living in a communist nation has the same advantages and opportunity for wealth creation. Under true communist/socialist ruling, mainly it is the government/dictator/corrupt and their minions who are the wealthy with the rest being suppressed.

Material wealth definitely isn't the best indicator of being 'rich'or 'poor'. However, I do view Africa as a 'poor' nation due to a few factors: the high proportion of diseases (AIDs especially), the high number of infant/child deaths, the starvation, hunger and lack of nutrition and clean water, women being mistreated unfairly in comparison to westernised/wealthier nations...again, I haven't got the precise statistics to quote for anyone, but either the press is exaggerating and misleading the mass or it is rather true to some extent.

Poverty Link Statistics...just a few

I'm really finding your posts interesting littlevixen, thanks for sharing your story and thoughts...appreciate it

Some links for interesting stats: (re poverty-world)

www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/hunger-facts-international.html

www.thinkquest.org (search world poverty disease statistics )
scroll to "An end to world hunger Hope for the future"

www.globalissues.org/traderelated/facts.asp

www.imva.org/pages/deadtxt.htm

www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/forstats.html there are many more...

I, personally, have travelled to some of the worst affected countries...poverty, disease, exploitation are very real...and probably something that some people overlook, or may not realise is that many statistics simply are inaccurate because many of them don't take into account disabilities!

Gut wrenching as the suffering and endurances these people and children are going through, there is some incredible work going on...(not nearly enough of course).
I personally contribute to these efforts as much as I can...(home and abroad) every little bit counts.
I believe, for me, if I am successful in wealth creation, that gives me opportunity to help others who are not as fortunate...in whatever way I can...and even before we got "into" property investing I did whatever I was able to anyway...for me it is not optional, that's just how I feel about the world. I have a very priviliged life.

Spiderman said:

It appears to me that it is either very difficult or impossible.

It would put everyone in a state of perpetual questioning in which no assumption is safe nor sharable.

Every nuance of every word in every sentence would be contestable.

So would non-verbal intonations, body language and questions of motive.

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Spiderman,

The trick with any idea is to not take it to it's logical conclusion - because frequently that's illogical

The first step is to recognise and account for your own filters.

Then you're able to select the ones to apply when and know when you simply can't help yourself.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

Dear Our_Obsession,

In my mind, you are truly "rich" already whether with the physical $$ or not.

Please allow me to salute you for your noble calling and good work done.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

littlevixen said:

Hi Kenneth,

If you've read a history of Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge episode with Pol Pot, I would be disappointed if you can still favour their version of 'communism'.

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Dear LittleVixen,

1. I favour no specific political idealogy.

2. Like you said, it was the Khmer Rouge's version/interpretation of Communism which greatly differs from the actual Communism as practised among some European nations or/and from the one which was originally propagated by Karl Marx, as one of its founding fathers.

3. Likewise, some of the present suicide-bombers who go around "terrorising" the world, also do see their work as a form of "Jihad" which many moderate Muslims do not agree with at all, even though they may share the same religion in Islam and believe in the same God called Allah.

4. Correct me if I am wrong.... I thought POL Pot has been publicly tried and dealt with by the Cambodian peoples... just like Saddam Hussein is being publicly tried in Iraq by its own people.

5. It is indeed an very unfortunate episode in human history though, similar in the great Holocaust prior to the World War II, though the Holocaust incident did evenutally lead to the birth of a new nation called Israel...

6. Will Saddam Hussein be the last dictator on earth, to massacre his own people?... Personally, I do not think so as History tends to repeat itself again some where some time again in the future, unfortunately.

7. While I do regret and empathise with you and what your family have been through during POL Pot rule, I do also see Cambodia and its peoples now trying to take responsibility and to create a better new future for themselves too, after this unfortunate rule by Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge regimes.

8. For your kind update, please.

9. Thank you


regards,
Kenneth KOH

littlevixen said:

It's a myth that people living in a communist nation has the same advantages and opportunity for wealth creation.

Under true communist/socialist ruling, mainly it is the government/dictator/corrupt and their minions who are the wealthy with the rest being suppressed.

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Dear Littlevixen,

1 I think that a true Communist will prefer "social fairness"/ social equality (Socialism) over the more individualistic (Capitalist) wealth.

2. Different Communist nations can also emerge out differently;- look at China today! Perhaps, you may also want to consider Singapore which is a "Democratic-Socialist" country, a truly unique nation of its own kind...

3. Likewise, we have ex-President Marcos in Phillipines who is also accused "robbing" the Filipinos peoples, many billion dollars worth of foreign aid monies as given by America.... and in America, we have the Enron incident... In Australia, we have the One-TEL or the Westpoint Corporation collapse incidents etc

4. Though of different scale and dimension, common to all these unfortunate events/history is Man, rather than their different political orientation.

5. For your kind update, please.

6. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

The Y-man said:

but there are those that believe, that being able to "step back" and "observe" those filters in action, will begin to lead you on the path to enlightenment.....

e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassana

Cheers,

The Y-man

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Hiya Y-man

1. Isn't this, in itself, a form of filter too?

2. ... One man's meat is another man's poison!

3. ... so where do we truly begin and where do we end ultimately?

4. ... In our own MIND and none others, I believe, isn;t it?

5. Looking forward to be further self-educated and enlightened by you please.

6. Thank you.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

our obsession said:

I, personally, have travelled to some of the worst affected countries...poverty, disease, exploitation are very real...and probably something that some people overlook, or may not realise is that many statistics simply are inaccurate because many of them don't take into account disabilities!

I personally contribute to these efforts as much as I can...(home and abroad) every little bit counts.
I believe, for me, if I am successful in wealth creation, that gives me opportunity to help others who are not as fortunate...in whatever way I can...and even before we got "into" property investing I did whatever I was able to anyway...for me it is not optional, that's just how I feel about the world. I have a very priviliged life.

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Thanks for sharing those links and information with myself and fellow forumites. It always makes me feel depressed(the facts seem to get grimmer each year) to be reading about how there is so much poverty, starvation, hunger and deaths that could've been prevented or at least, something done to minimise those disadvantages. I haven't travelled that much, so have never seen the extent of human poverty and exploitation. I do, however see the homeless, drug/acohol addicts and neglected kids in our own backyard and sometimes it feels as if there never will be enough resources(or anybody sufficiently caring enough) to eliminate all these issues. Right now I'm on a regular donation program for WSPA which is an animal welfare charity. They partner up with other charities to lobby/petition the government to change laws dealing with the mistreatment of animals, abuse and using animals for entertainment purposes which results in them fighting to the death and being greviously injured (bull fighting, **** fighting, bear baiting...it makes me mad ). My donations for human welfare being a bit more ad hoc for me. I'm not even sure which is the best charity for donating to when it concerns human welfare so have you got a few recommendations? I usually donate to World Vision but they seem to be criticised more and more lately.

Kennethkohsg said:

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Dear LittleVixen,

1. I favour no specific political idealogy.

2. Like you said, it was the Khmer Rouge's version/interpretation of Communism which greatly differs from the actual Communism as practised among some European nations or/and from the one which was originally propagated by Karl Marx, as one of its founding fathers.

regards,
Kenneth KOH

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Dear Kenneth,

The reason as to why I was reluctant to mention Cambodia and the Khmer Rouge period and my own family's association with that period was because I would prefer not to solicit any feelings of sympathy or regret.

Like any nation with a history of genocide, it's tragic but hopefully everyone has learnt from the tragedy and it will never happen again. I also favour no political ideology strongly, however I am pro democracy. Communism is a bit like the thought of utopia. Karl Marx's theory of communism formed its followers on the basis of the idea of equality, however, as humans, we are all frail and weak to some extent, and its because of these aspects of our characters, that leads to the corrupted few abusing the system. Communism was only ever perfect in theory and textbooks, never in practice. Hence, I don't like Communism because the system is fraught with the potential for abuse by that handful of people, who then execute those who oppose to their control or who might possibly influence people to uprise against their control(whether publicly or quietly). By taking away everyones power and giving it to a few (the ones that operate the whole communist regime), it makes the whole population more powerless to protest against any issues. I don't want to mention Tiannamen Square or Falun Gong but while we bring up the topic of Communism/holocaust/khmer rouge...we might as well drag out all the horrid parts of history and how they relate to Communism and Dictatorship.

China itself, was a nation with millions/billions of poor people and this is only changing due to the fabric of their communist regime disolving. If you agree that China is better off now that a few decades ago then you will likely agree that for the Chinese populace, democracy/capitalism is better than communism. However, to each their own.

I am, (truly rich), Kenneth, but I do very little, and I certainly could do a lot more. Sometimes I have these fleeting feelings it's not a currency that the world readily recognises (to deal with) anymore?

The only reason I posted my last thoughts (and some links), was because I got an impression (possibly incorrect Pam! ) that there may have been some doubt on the extent of poverty in this world...and some people maybe poo-pooing on how "awful" poverty is but doing nothing about it?

If people are talking about it, that's good, by people discussing poverty it's on the table, what happens from there is an individuals choice, you may choose to help further or not...and that is purely up to the individual...

Littlevixen, I am so enjoying your posts and thoughts on everything, thankyou!
I have a friend and a relative that work in World Vision, true there are good and bad points about everything/organisations/people but their work is well intentioned and Tim Costello, to me, is an absolute inspiration of a man...a wonderful human being

The majority of people involved in helping make this world a better place for others are inspiring people who always seem to maintain their optimistic nature and wacky sense of humor. In some of the deepest and darkest places that the human spirit can go, there is, (to be found), amazing tenacity and fight for survival and determination...take heart!

I'm not comfortable recommending any charity or organisation for people to donate too, very much personal choice, but I really appreciate people with hearts like yours (and Kenneth!)

What I have expressed above are my thoughts only...and they can sometimes be a little freaky and obsessive
...and sometimes that's fun!

Kennethkohsg said:

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Hiya Y-man

1. Isn't this, in itself, a form of filter too?

2. ... One man's meat is another man's poison!

3. ... so where do we truly begin and where do we end ultimately?

4. ... In our own MIND and none others, I believe, isn;t it?

5. Looking forward to be further self-educated and enlightened by you please.

6. Thank you.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH

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1. Probably.
2. Agree.
3. Unsure.
4. Most likely.

You will note in my wording they are not necessarily my own beliefs In fact I know very little......

Cheers,

The Y-man

hi, this topic is really difficult, but i'll through some ideas into the bonfire

1. didnt everyone, at some point in time, start out poor? as families, as cities, as nations

2. is it possible to, in this day and age, build wealth from nothing through hard work/inventions/etc.

3. my view of filters (which i dont understand): i always try and view things from all angles but there is a limit on what i know... so to analyse your own filter is to know what you dont know?

interesting to fill up my brain with these thoughts

lowb said:

...is it possible to, in this day and age, build wealth from nothing through hard work/inventions/etc.

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I think in Oz, if you're poor, you can do something about it, there are afterall, lot of opportunities. If I was poor (I'm talking broke, down and out) then I think for one thing, I would sacrifice a few things to get to where I want to be. Live in a sharehouse with a few people in one bedroom even, at $50 per week renting out in the bush or mountains or some cheap suburb and save up from there, work in a labouring job, pick fruit, do cleaning or anything to earn some money, save it, invest it and grow it, also try to get myself an education. 'Poor' is a state of mind and if you let that state of mind take control, it becomes reality