a story you won't read on the left's ABC

Mark_B said:

WW can fight his own battles

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Actually.. he seems unable to do that.

Mark_B said:

It would be fair to say that my feelings on unions now border on hatred.

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Yeah, you must hate 4 weeks leave, sick leave, carers leave, maternity leave, paternity leave, safe working conditions, good pay..

How have unions personally affected you in a negative fashion? Give specific examples not invective from some obscure PhD.

You've given a few extreme examples of Unions gone bad.. but these are massively overshadowed by the rampant abuse of people that various Employers have perpetrated over the years.. and the disgusting Industrial Relations environment that the Government rammed through after the Election.. without any clear mandate for that change.

Give me a government made up of moderate ex-union officials ANY DAY over that lying sack of cow manure John Howard.. he took us to war in Iraq under false pretences, he lied about 'Children Overboard', he has "Core" and "Non Core" promises, he manipulated an entire ship full of refugees for his own political gain, he let David Hicks languish for years in Guantanamo Bay, he actively supports the Death Penalty in OTHER countries and endangers the lives of Australians on Death Row in those countries, he led a government that has stripped us of civil liberties all in the name of that, now, embarrassing "war on terror", he's systematically stripping Australian Workers of rights and entitlements, he's spent MASSIVE amounts of hard earned Tax Payer money on Television advertising of a clearly political nature, he's demonised racial groups (think Sudanese).. he's treated Aboriginals with contempt and used them as a pawn in his political game, he's enlisted obscure pacific islands to act as a dumping ground for unwanted arrivals and taken years to process them.. He's an embarrassment on a global scale.

Really.. any day.. give me a Goverment made up of people who've got a track record of caring about people.. Our country could be so much better if we had a government that really cared about the people and environment for a change.. We've toggled unbelievably far to the right.. its time to toggle back a little.. not to some extreme left that you seem to be fearing but to a healthy balance between "The Economy" and "Our Society."

WinstonWolfe said:

Have a look at the ABS site and look at union membership trends. Ask yourself why they decline in times of economic strength.

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Union Membership has declined because for so many years our rights, our safety and our working conditions became enshrined and unassailable... Union Membership became seen as superfluous.. times were good.. The population has become lackadaisical about protecting those rights and conditions.. and now they're being assaulted on a grand scale by the John Howard and his government.. one can only wonder at their motivations, almost certainly its based on election funding or streams of income we're not privy to.

To suggest that declining membership is some evidence of the diminishing role of unions is naive. Now, more than ever Unions have a strong role to play .. for who else will be the sentinel of past achievements?

Whilst I agree with Winston, I feel I must point out....
Getting into political slanging matches on these threads is pointless. I dont think swinging voters bother reading these things. The only people reading are firm believers from one side or the other. And guys just remember what Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms "

WinstonWolfe said:

Yeah, the CFMEU is beyond corruption isn't it Nat.....
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21795976-2702,00.html

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Interesting you bring the CFMEU up i worked on sites in QLD
when the ex melboune painter-docker first started his rise to
power, then to later lead the CFMEU in their power plays
with anyone that did not play the game, i'm told in some ways it's still
the same in the high rise building game, i use to laugh when we would come
back from the pub at lunch time only to find all our power tool leads
cut up, and all powertools taken away as unsafe,then they would start on
the mobile scaffolds and anything else to burn us off the job, yes union
thugs are great for the normal person in the street but not the best for
small businesses people when you empoy several people who depend on you
to put food on their table..nobody ever wins ...willair..


BTW the B-- union only did the power tool standover trick twice on me
the third time they made the mistake of cutting all the power tools
scaffolds power supplies to a team of new to the game ceiling fixers
who are a splinter company for a well know US based outlaw mc, and now a very
powerfull player in the building game,the unions boys know full well
it works both ways, and you won,t find any outlawMC in the yellow pages
but they will find you,that worried several upstart union bully boys.. ..

I don't know alot about specific political policies to argue a point to any length (and dont have the desire to research them either!!!) but I do believe that a productive and switched on individual can succeed without the help of unions. Businesses and corporations if good enough will also succeed irrespective of what government gets in.

I'm a liberal supporter (because I don't want the industrial reform act to be reversed by labour, also I think Rudd and his strip clubbing is a pathetic display of immaturity and lack of self integrity and I don't want someone with such low morals to run our country)

ButI dont like to depend on anything external for my own success and like to believe that I can do just as well in a labour as well as a liberal government, at the end of the day all I can do is one vote for 10 minutes after that I like focusing my energies on what I can have influence on not on what government wins the election!!!!!

duncan_m said:

he's systematically stripping Australian Workers of rights and entitlements

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Nothing strips workers of their rights more than massive unemployment.

The ALP ruined the economy for tens of thousands of small businesses, and had over a million people on the dole queues.

Great work.

M

Mark_B said:

The ALP ruined the economy for tens of thousands of small businesses, and had over a million people on the dole queues.

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All past governments have their failings.. and history rarely portrays a clear picture.. especially when it comes to the Economy.. prevailing world conditions especially seem to get forgotten.

duncan_m said:

All past governments have their failings.. and history rarely portrays a clear picture.. especially when it comes to the Economy..

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It is on the public record that Paul Keating had the RBA raise interest rates for political purposes (on the grounds they they would supposedly be falling in time for a particular election).

Mark_B said:

The "recession we had to have", interest rates pushing 19% and 10+% unemployment are all ALP legacies.

John Edwards (Chief Economist at HSBC) wrote Paul Keating's Biography (Edwards used to be Keating's economics adviser) - in it there are some fascinating insights into economic management during Keatings term as Treasurer (1983-1991).

Like this little gem. The book acknowledges (it actually names names) that certain people in Treasury and Keating himself were of the opinion that for interest rates to be falling in time for a particular federal election - they first had to rise (to about 17%).

This is completely reprehensible.

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duncan_m said:

prevailing world conditions especially seem to get forgotten.

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No, not forgotten, simply put in perspective.

The simple fact is that our Government plays an important role in the economy - and can influence a great many things directly as a result of policies they choose.

Mark_B said:

I do believe that there is a relationship between the policies of the government of the day and CPI.

Excluding for a moment external factors such as the price of oil, exchange rates, etc, the government of the day has the capacity to influence CPI through:

- tax rates (personal and company)

- the budget balance (and how a deficit is funded)

- transfer (welfare) payments

- policies on things such as negative gearing

- wages policy (real wages fell in the 1980's under the Accord)

- industry / trade policy (R & D concessions, subsidies, tariffs, etc)

- microeconomic policy and reform (including NCP)

- prudential policy (changes to the asset base that banks must hold)

Changes to any one of those could affect CPI through the demand and supply mechanism.

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M

Mark_B said:

IThe simple fact is that our Government plays an important role in the economy - and can influence a great many things directly as a result of policies they choose.

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Fraser was pretty keen on interest rates.. 20.7%.. and one guess who the Treasurer was at the time...

duncan_m said:

Fraser was pretty keen on interest rates.. 20.7%.. and one guess who the Treasurer was at the time...

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I don't know what your source is, but the RBA see it differently.

Standard mortgages hit 13.50% in late 1982 and a small business O/D was 14.50%.

Fast forward to late 1989 and a standard mortgage was 17.00% and a small business O/D was 20.50%.

M

Mark_B said:

I don't know what your source is

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An article I read.

Actually that is a letter to the editor.

Meticulously researched, I am sure.

M

Mark_B said:

Actually that is a letter to the editor.

Meticulously researched, I am sure.

M

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Yes, my bad.

Too many http's Dunc.
try this link for the article.

Cheers,
Beef

I'm actually of the belief that the previous Labour party undertook many difficult reforms that have helped create the economy we have today. The reserve bank should be independent, Keating stuffed up, however I don't think John H can really throw rocks regarding manipulation for political purposes.

Growing up my parents were anti union, small business owners. I certainly didn't hold unions in a very high regard. Stories I hear and read regarding the 70s and 80s suggest to me that unions did have too much power. When I started working in the mid 90s I worked in a union protected industry which had union representation, it wasn't nivarna however it was safe, conditions were fair and IR issues were generally restricted agreement renewals.

In 2000 I took a new job which was based on a AWA, this job turned me into somebody who believes unions have a role in society. In this job:
1. The safety standards were horrific, my parents begged me to leave because I kept telling them of my near misses.
2. My pay and conditions were very flexible... flexible for the business, no flexibiltiy for me. I was essentially on call 24/7, was not paid any overtime, was not allowed to take any leave for the first 12months. Forget about shift penalties, leave loading or any 'trim' that one might expect.
3. Management did not want/care or listen to any complaints, real or percieved. There was one toilet for 60 workers, surely I'm not being too fussy! There was nobody to go to - I was on my own and by myself I was a big nothing! Remember, this was in the days of the original 'fairness test'.

So like many of my coworkers, I left and started work at a more traditional workplace and once again it was no nivarna however compared with the AWA based workplace it was bliss.

So when people ask my opinion on the federal election I tell them this:

If you believe that as an individual you have the abililty to negoitate pay standards, safety standards, and work environment standards, maybe you should vote to keep workchoices. However when you can no longer attend family BBQs because weekends don't exist anymore, where safety is purely a logo that sits on posters in the managers office and each year you see your pay stay the same while your expenses increase, remember who you voted for.

I have worked in this situation, it does exist out there and once the traditional industries that provide 'fair' conditions move onto AWA there will be no where else to run.

Gee, it's great to see Duncan back.
I like reading these threads on a quiet Friday afternoon.
I had a vigorous discussion with an uncle of mine the other day about all this. We both thought we won.
I think it's a bit disengenuous of the Libs to take credit for the bounty afforded by the mining boom.
Would an ALP government bring our comfortable, priviledged property investor world crashing down? I'm not sure. I suspect not.
Would an ALP government invest more in social capital? I would like to hope so.
I'm keen to risk it.
And I part own and run a small business.
Scott

Mark B wins. Go to the top of the class.
I remember the rates well, as I was about to build my PPOR at the time of the election. 13.5% it was with United Permanent for $26,500 to buy the land.
However, I know that my neighbour was getting 20% on his $100,000 on the short term money market. We had 11% unemployment when Fraser made his exit. I grew up in an era where rolling strikes made us the laughing stock of the world.

Does anyone really think that if Labour gets in we will have higher interest rates than if the Libs were in power, now that the RBA is independent? I would think even if the party in power goes crazy on govt deficits, the RBA would head that off at the pass fast with interest rate hikes. i.e. the fact that the RBA would respond more quickly means rates won't have to go as high.
Alex

I find the whole interest rate thing so spurious, but it's something so nice and easy for the electorate to get its dim collective head around that politicians trot it out so people like my uncle can use it in arguments with their left leaning smartarse nephews.
It was his first, lame punch.
There was no point me trying to explain how it is a different world now than even 10 years ago.
Instead, I asked him to consider that interest rates under Fraser (and Howard) rose during their term in government. And that was when the government controlled interest rates.
But over the Hawke and Keating terms, they fell. (Though yes, there was that brief but nasty spike.)
I remember hearing somewhere that average interest rates under Keating were less than those under Fraser and Hawke?
There are lots of ways to spin interest rates. Same as all statistics.
Scott

depreciator said:

Instead, I asked him to consider that interest rates under Fraser (and Howard) rose during their term in government. And that was when the government controlled interest rates.
But over the Hawke and Keating terms, they fell. (Though yes, there was that brief but nasty spike.)

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Simplest way to get rates rising is to strengthen the economy, hence employment.

Simplest way to get rates falling is to weaken the economy and employment.