If you started again, how would you make your first $1 million?

If you have $20K extra cash, I think it'd be far better off leveraged into more investments (costs on another IP, CFDs, margin loan etc, depending on the economic climate at the time) than used to pay down debt. Whilst paying down debt can certainly work, leveraging into more investments will accelerate the process provided you invest wisely.

If you don't trust yourself to invest wisely - ie achieve a return greater than interest - then don't invest at all.

I agree with this, however with the higher interest rate environment, its becoming less and less attractive option to be borrowing to invest.

what point do you get to then we decide its not worth using equity to invest elsewhere? ie shares, another ip etc?
 
The other way is to buy properties that have all factors covered:

cap growth
cashflow
tax benefits and depreciation
add value potential.

There seems to be a mentality that being neg geared is a given.

It doesn't have to be; even in this climate, but takes extra work to find something that will pay for itself from day one.

In a nutshell; cashflow positive after tax.


I completely agree. It seems to me me that any investment should pay it's own way, and that it should generate cashflow and capital growth. There are a number of people who have told me that you 'have to negative gear to make money', which I disagree with. Given that property has several ways to generate future benefit (as listed above by LAAussie), these should be considered, and not simply ignored in favour of potential growth to the exclusion of all else.

I have built good equity simply by purchasing IPs that pay themself off (principle included) - over time you can't fail. Add to this the fact that a small part of the market at any given time has both good yield AND growth potential (due mostly to location), as well the fact that you still get tax benefits on non negative geared property (the only difference is the income stream is larger!), and I think the smart view is to consider all these factors.

The big assumption that many people make is that you can only have capital growth or yield, but not both. There are parts of the market (that change over time) where you CAN have both - you have to look carefully to find them though.

Consider also that if you can find good yielding properties that have growth potential, your risk is inherently lower, as you are contributing significantly less of your $$ earned from working, and you are less reliant on market value increase over time to get you out of the hole.

As an example, I bought a unit in inner city Canberra mid last year. It cost $322k, and rented immediately for $380 per week. It's now worth around $370k, and will get $400+ next rent review. All this in 9 months! It isn't positive cashflow before tax, but I'm not concerned, because rental demand in this area is huge, and I've already enjoyed a good capital gain. I will borrow against this property at a later stage to buy more assets.
 
I think its hard to find property which pays for itself from day 1 unless your putting down a large deposit, and/or doing some improvement which significantly increases rent from the outset.

since your buying property at 8.5% interest rate, and then renting it out at 4-5% rent, there is always going to be a shortfall.

If I'm missing something here, please let me know?

Ways I can see which you can increase rent are as follows:

Furnish IP
do cheap but effective reno, ie paint, etc

etc.. but these things arent going to double your rent.
 
I think its hard to find property which pays for itself from day 1 unless your putting down a large deposit, and/or doing some improvement which significantly increases rent from the outset.

since your buying property at 8.5% interest rate, and then renting it out at 4-5% rent, there is always going to be a shortfall.

If I'm missing something here, please let me know?

Ways I can see which you can increase rent are as follows:

Furnish IP
do cheap but effective reno, ie paint, etc

etc.. but these things arent going to double your rent.

The last IP I bought (the example I gave) I fronted a 20% cash deposit, and get 6.1% yield before costs. The depreciation schedule and interest deductions make it pretty close to cashflow neutral after tax. A couple of rent increases will push it cashflow positive.

The point, I guess, is that a 15% value increase in 9 months hasn't come at the expense of decent yield.
 
The last IP I bought (the example I gave) I fronted a 20% cash deposit, and get 6.1% yield before costs. The depreciation schedule and interest deductions make it pretty close to cashflow neutral after tax. A couple of rent increases will push it cashflow positive.

The point, I guess, is that a 15% value increase in 9 months hasn't come at the expense of decent yield.

6.1% yield is achievable. And the fact you put down 20% deposit is the other main factor here.

The IP I purchased I also put down 20% deposit, and my holding costs are small as well.
 
I'm a little surprised that everyone says the first thing to do is PPOR. Surely in the current market it makes more sense to rent and accumulate IP's first, then buy a PPOR later. Or is this crazy talk?
 
I'm a little surprised that everyone says the first thing to do is PPOR. Surely in the current market it makes more sense to rent and accumulate IP's first, then buy a PPOR later. Or is this crazy talk?

That's how I started and that's how all these people who say housing is unaffordable should start.

We lived in North Sydney, but had to buy our first property on the Central Coast or NSW as that was all we could afford. We rented it out and stayed in Sydney for work while renting from some one else.

Bought for $170k. Sold for 640K. Not a bad investment for beginners!
 
I'm a little surprised that everyone says the first thing to do is PPOR. Surely in the current market it makes more sense to rent and accumulate IP's first, then buy a PPOR later. Or is this crazy talk?

I don't think it matters, everyone is saying to buy A property.. if you rent it out, or live in it, it doesn't matter.

It may be that its cheaper to rent something which suites YOU, but what your after isn't necessary the best investment.. so you might buy a 3 bed house, and rent a 1 bed flat as you don't need a big place... or you might live in GoAnna's trailer park! ;)
 
We lived in North Sydney, but had to buy our first property on the Central Coast or NSW as that was all we could afford. We rented it out and stayed in Sydney for work while renting from some one else.

ah - so you have "done". my apologise ... what did you learn? what are your goals now?
 
CRC,

I would repeat what I have already done to acquire a Multi $Million Property Portfolio spread across Australia.

Here is a post that describes my investment strategy that involves Villas & Townhouses. It may be of interest to you.

The capital growth averaging (CGA) strategy I employ utilises a regular purchasing cycle similar to what Dollar Cost Averaging is to the sharemarket. The major underlying principle to its success is it relies on your "time in" the market, NOT "timing" the market, and never never sell. So in other words it does not matter whether you buy at the top of a boom or at the bottom, just so long as you purchase good quality, well located property in high density areas ( metro area capital cities), at or below fair market value, on a regular basis. I've been purchasing IP per year and currently into year 6 of this 10 year plan.

I've been purchasing new or near new property over older style property for several reasons, the main ones being (in no particular order) -

1/ To maximise my Non-Cash deductions
2/ To minimise my maintenance & repair costs
3/ More modern & Attractive to tenants - thereby minimising potential
vacancy rates
4/ Ask a higher rent - thereby Maximising yields

Without getting into the "which is better debate, houses or Units??", I preferr to purchase Townhouses & Villas with a 30% or greater land component thereby eliminating multi story units or high rise apartments, for several reasons. The mains ones being (in no particular order) -

1/ lower maintenance & upkeep for the tenant
2/ lower purchase or entry level into a Higher capital growth suburb area
3/ rapidly growing marketplace (starting both now & into the future) wanting these type properties. This is due the largest group of people to ever be born (being the Babyboomers and Empty nesters) starting to come into their retirement years. They will be wanting to downsize for the following main reasons - lifestyle & economic.
4/ greater tax advantages & effectiveness thus maximises cashflow.
5/ able to hold more individual properties spread across your portfolio - thereby minimising area over exposure risks by not holding all your eggs in only a few baskets, so to speak

I look to buy in areas with a historic Cap growth of 7%pa and/or are under gentrification. I look to where the Govt, Commercial, Retail, private sectors are injecting money. This ultimately beautifies the area and people like the looks so move in creating demand.

I have found this works well if you are looking for short to medium term capital growth so as to leverage against and build your portfolio faster.

Getting back to CGA, as the name suggests it averages out the capital growth achieved on individual properties with your portfolio throughout an entire property cycle, taking into account that property doubles in value every 7 - 10 years. Thats 7%pa compounding.

The easiest way to explain what Im meaning by this is to provide a basic example taking into account that all your portfolio cashflow will be serviced via disposable income, wages in the initial acquisition phase, Rental income, the Tax man, an LOC and/or Cashbond structure.

For ease of calculation lets say we buy a property for $250k, so in 10 years its now worth $500k. Now lets say we do that each year for the next 7-10 years. Now you can quit the rat race.

So in year 11 ( 10 years since your 1st Ip) you have 250K equity in IP1 you can draw out (up to 80%) Tax free to fund your lifestyle or invest with. In year 12 you do exactly the same but instead of drawing it from IP1 you draw it from IP2. In year 13 you do the same to IP3, in year 14 to IP4, etc etc etc. You systmatically go right through your portfolio year by year until you have redrawn from each property up to year 20.

So what do you do after you get year 20 I hear you say ?? hmmm..well thats where it all falls into a deep hole - You have to go get a JOB - nope only joking!

You simply go back to that first IP you purchased as its been 10 years since you drew upon it first time around and its now doubled in value ($1M) yet again - so you complete the entire cycle once again. Infact chances are you never drew each property up 80% lvr max , so not only have you got entire property cycle of growth to spend you still have what you left in it first time round that compounded big time. Now you wealth is compounding faster than you can spend it! What a problem to have.

Getting back to what I said in my opening paragraph about it does not matter where you buy within a property cycle just so long as you do buy, This is because you will not be wanting to draw upon it until 10 years later after its achieved a complete cycle of growth.

Well thats the Basic Big Picture of CGA. Once its set up its a self perpetuating, income TAX FREE Money Machine.

I hope this helps.
__________________
 
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Here are my goals by this time next year.


1. $80,000 Deposit for IP (first home)

$30,000 saved and $50,000 gift from parents


2. To pay down my < $220 K IP within 5 years.


3. Will rent out this unit for 2-3 years and live with my parents.


4. Will move in and make my IP my ppor only once at least 3/4 is payed down.


5. In about 6-7 years time I will buy another IP, this time a $300 - $330 K unit rent it out and stay in my 1 bed ppor.


[/B]



Hi

I have changed my mind. My main goal for 2008/2009 is to buy my first home as a PPOR.


First Home Buyer - PPOR


1. Buy a unit for less than $250,000


2. Deposit of $80,000


3. $170,000 Mortgage


4. Buy 1st IP when I have 50% equity in my PPOR


I'd like to hear from other forum members on a low/average salary or who started off with a low salary and how they went about buying their PPOR first before buying their first IP.


Atm I'm on around $45,000 P.A. which means I have to start out with something very basic. Will I be able to afford an IP on that salary if I follow this strategy. Hopefully I can, if I am careful with my money and work hard.

Once things have settled at work (restructure) I will be talking to a mortgage broker or buyers agent to see what my options are.
 
Kim5, why do you want to buy your PPOR so soon? Personally, I lived at home when I bought my first IP, and I think the tax advantages and so on make IPs a better choice than PPOR, especially if you can live at home. As an IP, you get rent, and you get to negatively gear. As you're just starting out the difference can be huge.

Are you thinking about the first home buyers grants? The FHOG can be 'kept' for a future purchase (though stamp duty exemptions probably can't).

To me (I bought several IPs before finally buying my PPOR last year) the 'loss' of the stamp duty exemptions (which didn't exist for me when I bought mine), is worth 'training' yourself in thinking about property as an investment first, and as a home second. My first IP was $170k, when I made $35k, and I went with 90% LVR. Because of the high rents at the time, I could buy another IP almost immediately. If I'd bought it as a PPOR, I probably couldn't have done that.
Alex
 
You know what's funny. I was thinking over how I started, and how I made my current assets. If I knew then what I knew now (and I know more now), I probably would have hesitated a lot more. As an older, more experienced person, I would hesitate a lot more and play it 'safer'. At the moment, for example, I don't have the guts to increase my portfolio significantly, but when I first started I bought my second IP 6 months after my first, even though I wasn't seeing huge price jumps.

When you first start, the best step is simply to go for it.
Alex
 
Kim5, why do you want to buy your PPOR so soon? Personally, I lived at home when I bought my first IP, and I think the tax advantages and so on make IPs a better choice than PPOR, especially if you can live at home. As an IP, you get rent, and you get to negatively gear. As you're just starting out the difference can be huge.

G'day Alex

Because if I were to buy an IP first it'd mean I wouldnt be able to buy my first PPOR for at least 5 years or more, because I wouldnt be able to service both mortgages on my salary.Plus I'm 35 and I dont want to live with my parents for too long.

Maybe there could be a way to achieve this. I tell ya what... I am going to keep my options open until I get some advice from a broker.

I'll work out a plan and see what is feasible, what is realistic and will go from there.

Dont worry I am not going to make any rushed decisions. I'll get all the facts and see what works best for me.
 
Rixter, Your plan is a good one in theory, but you dont address two points. Its all good and well to say 'I'm going to buy a IP every year for 10 years and then draw down equity as they all double'.

But you haven't addressed how your going to get the deposits and other costs for each IP? Since your drawing equity only after year 10, I assume your not using equity to buy new IP's.

Second you haven't addressed how your going to service all those IP's? Unless you putting down 50% deposits, there is going to be a shortfall. Unless your earning $200k PA, your not going to have enough tax to service so many properties nor income capacity.

With a 20% deposit, a IP will cost you about $10-15k loss each year until rents catch up which can take years. So if you have 10 IP's thats a $150,000 loss each year your making. How do you plan to fund this shortfall?
 
Rixter, Your plan is a good one in theory, but you dont address two points. Its all good and well to say 'I'm going to buy a IP every year for 10 years and then draw down equity as they all double'.

CRC, its not theory mate. Ive actually already acquired them (currently 8 years into the 10 year plan) so know it can be achieved in practice with the required knowledge level.

But you haven't addressed how your going to get the deposits and other costs for each IP? Since your drawing equity only after year 10, I assume your not using equity to buy new IP's.

I used equity as security deposits on 100% plus purchasing costs Interest Only loans to purchase each property.

Second you haven't addressed how your going to service all those IP's? Unless you putting down 50% deposits, there is going to be a shortfall. Unless your earning $200k PA, your not going to have enough tax to service so many properties nor income capacity.

As mentioned above I borrow the full purchase price plus costs so do not inject any of my own capital into the purchases. If you look into the body of my CGA post you will see where I have actually addressed service ability. You must have mistakenly missed it however I will paraphrase it here -

"The easiest way to explain what Im meaning by this is to provide a basic example taking into account that all your portfolio cashflow will be serviced via disposable income, wages in the initial acquisition phase, Rental income, the Tax man, an LOC and/or Cashbond structure."

No huge $200k PA income you mention required either. I started out on $35k PA and Im currently on $58k PA...so as you can see, just the average wage.

With a 20% deposit, a IP will cost you about $10-15k loss each year until rents catch up which can take years. So if you have 10 IP's thats a $150,000 loss each year your making. How do you plan to fund this shortfall?

You are not purchasing an entire portfolio straight out in year one. You are purchasing good quality, well located property as fast and as quickly as you can reasonably afford.

Over time incomes & equities increase and as I mentioned earlier portfolio cash flow becomes serviced via disposable income, wages in the initial acquisition phase, Rental income, the Tax man, an LOC and/or Cashbond structure.

I hope this provides you with a bit more knowledge & insight into CGA.
 
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crc_error, it is a good plan and it's not just threory. I've just financed my 5th IP on an average wage and using equity in IP #1 to bridge the 20% deposit plus fees, so IP # 5 cost me nothing out of my own pocket.
I have a monthly shortfall of around $1,200 that I need to fund out of my own pocket, but I managed to cover this by doing an Income TAx Withholding Variation (ITWV) with the ATO so my monthly tax on wages is around $1,000 less than it was, to account for the negative gearing losses on the other IP's.
I'm looking to buy another using equity in IP #2. I'll be putting no money down, but the monthly shortfall will be partly taken up by an increase in my tax break via the ITWV and an increase in rents across the other properties which will give me increased cashflow of between $250 and $300 per month. This will leave me with quite a manageable shortfall each month. Probably around the $500 mark, depending on the rent I get from IP #6.
The plan does work, you just got to work the plan :)
 
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