UBS: Aust Residential Affordability

That's the RBA argument. The bit I don't get about it is why would higher discretionary income go into bidding up the prices of existing housing stock? Big Macs weren't bid up in price as people's discretionary income rose.

1) People value houses more than Big Macs.
2) Big Macs depreciate to zero value when used.
3) There is unlimited supply/availability of Big Macs.
4) All Big Macs are identical. Impossible to aspire to owning a bigger and better Big Mac.

However, put five Big Macs on an island of 100 starving rich people with no other food source, and they will bid up the price pretty quickly! :D
 
The main discretionary item these days is a new car.
I'd disagree. The main discretionary item these days is the best house we can afford. We used to live in caves - that was adequate for millenia. We don't need a house close to the CBD/beach, a tent will provide shelter, or one of those $1 houses in Detroit. Above a certain (v. low) point a house is a discretionary item.
 
I'd disagree. The main discretionary item these days is the best house we can afford. We used to live in caves - that was adequate for millenia. We don't need a house close to the CBD/beach, a tent will provide shelter, or one of those $1 houses in Detroit. Above a certain (v. low) point a house is a discretionary item.

a house is also a safe place to put your savings, that make it much less discretionary and subject to volatility.
A cheap old car is far less discretionary then a new expensive one.
Discretionary items are the one that people cut first in a financial chrisis. I can't think of a worse performer then car industry (ecxept banks but that is for a different reason)
 
I really think we should be re-focussing this discussion on which investment opportunities allay these concerns rather than use these concerns to throw up our hands and say all residential property is overpriced when clearly it isn't!
Hear, hear!

I think we can all agree that "buy and hold" and rely on strong CG is not a good strategy for too many markets in the short term. But many property investors don't rely on market movement for profit. I think the (property) strategies most likely to work right now are:

1) cashflow positive - the income increases over time, and being CF+, if you do want to sell, it allows you to choose the time you want to sell, rather than being forced to sell in a slow market. It's important that the income is reliable (eg low income housing, Liquorland or TAB as a commercial tenant, etc). I wouldn't want to be in mining or other single-industry markets unless I were an expert in that niche and confident of the future.

2) create positive cashflow - it's admittedly unusual to find a property listed on re.com.au that you can list at market rent, unfurnished, and have it be significantly CF+. So be more creative!
* rent out your house by the room
* if your house is in a desirable area, furnish it and let out as a corporate rental
* see if you can rent out the car park or storage shed separately - if the neighbours don't have one, they might be happy to pay $10 a week to use your shed - basically, think what you have excess of (land, storage space, etc) and decide whether it's valuable to somebody else
* see if you can package other items with the property and attract a higher rent - eg Foxtel (apparently doing very well with people staying home more), gardening service, etc. There are a number of reasons why people might be willing to pay more than the cost of these items, if they're bundled as "rent".
* see if there are improvements you can make, for which the tenant is willing to pay more than the cost to you. eg I calculate air-con costs me about $5 per week to provide. A tenant may be willing to pay $15 a week more - let's do it! Other possibilities - gardening service, extra phone lines or antenna sockets, etc.

3) Develop and hold
* take advantage of the relatively slow construction industry to build now, then rent for a few years and sell when the market has picked up again (or not sell at all) - even better if it's CF+ after construction
* subdivide, change of use, etc - get familiar with your Council's development plans and position yourself to take advantage of upcoming beautification, re-zoning, and/or infrastructure projects
 
Hear, hear!

I think we can all agree that "buy and hold" and rely on strong CG is not a good strategy for too many markets in the short term. But many property investors don't rely on market movement for profit. I think the (property) strategies most likely to work right now are:

1) cashflow positive - the income increases over time, and being CF+, if you do want to sell, it allows you to choose the time you want to sell, rather than being forced to sell in a slow market. It's important that the income is reliable (eg low income housing, Liquorland or TAB as a commercial tenant, etc). I wouldn't want to be in mining or other single-industry markets unless I were an expert in that niche and confident of the future.

2) create positive cashflow - it's admittedly unusual to find a property listed on re.com.au that you can list at market rent, unfurnished, and have it be significantly CF+. So be more creative!
* rent out your house by the room
* if your house is in a desirable area, furnish it and let out as a corporate rental
* see if you can rent out the car park or storage shed separately - if the neighbours don't have one, they might be happy to pay $10 a week to use your shed - basically, think what you have excess of (land, storage space, etc) and decide whether it's valuable to somebody else
* see if you can package other items with the property and attract a higher rent - eg Foxtel (apparently doing very well with people staying home more), gardening service, etc. There are a number of reasons why people might be willing to pay more than the cost of these items, if they're bundled as "rent".
* see if there are improvements you can make, for which the tenant is willing to pay more than the cost to you. eg I calculate air-con costs me about $5 per week to provide. A tenant may be willing to pay $15 a week more - let's do it! Other possibilities - gardening service, extra phone lines or antenna sockets, etc.

3) Develop and hold
* take advantage of the relatively slow construction industry to build now, then rent for a few years and sell when the market has picked up again (or not sell at all) - even better if it's CF+ after construction
* subdivide, change of use, etc - get familiar with your Council's development plans and position yourself to take advantage of upcoming beautification, re-zoning, and/or infrastructure projects

very good post ozperp, I agree with you and you can't just buy something and sit on it like in the past few years, now you have actually to work to get good return out of property (fair enough I would say).
but even if you rent for commercial reliable business you still have a risk that at the end of the lease they'll move somewhere else for cheaper rent or they'll negotiate a cheaper rent if it is a renter market. So if next door of a TAB or liquorland a landlord is struggling to find tennant and getting a good lease this eventually will effect you as well.
 
but even if you rent for commercial reliable business you still have a risk that at the end of the lease they'll move somewhere else for cheaper rent or they'll negotiate a cheaper rent if it is a renter market.
Agreed. We can't eliminate risk; we can only minimise and manage it.
 
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1)
3) There is unlimited supply/availability of Big Macs.
4) All Big Macs are identical. Impossible to aspire to owning a bigger and better Big Mac.

However, put five Big Macs on an island of 100 starving rich people with no other food source, and they will bid up the price pretty quickly! :D

Spot on, Shadow. Ever seen 2 blokes at an auction having a ******* contest? One of my favourite spectator sports! Luckily for the cleaners at Maccas they can both get an identical Big mac on the way home.
 
Not really. Inflation has been low for the last decade, wage growth has been higher, discretionary income increases have exceeded both.

I think you and I are saying the same thing here, since I believe the underlying driver of movement in discretionary income is GDP movements measured at a household level (ie that wage growth gap over CPI is partially funded by GDP movements, the discretionary income increase over AWE is partially funded by GDP movements, etc).

Sounds like an interesting view.... I'm not sure I fully understand... can you elaborate ?

I'll try by example in terms of funding.

I'm a wealthy property investor 100 years ago. I own freehold properties in Brisbane. To fund these, I've approached local banks. They've sourced their funding by local deposits. Lending margins are relatively high corresponding to the localised pool of deposit funds that each bank has access to.

Whilst lending margins are high (profit margins are low), my financial performance (from funding only) is correlated to a small group of counterparties (ie, my local banks and their depositors).

Furthermore, I can diversify this exposure by investing in other markets (Sydney, Melbourne, etc) since I'm therefore exposed to other groups of depositors and other banks who are only minimally exposed to the ones I'm currently exposed to.

The same property investor 30 years ago will again approach local banks for funding. But now they've sourced a proportion of funds locally and the remainder from other depositors elsewhere in Australia. This drives down the lending margins (ie increases my profit margins), but banks now have access to greater volumes - they trade off high margins for higher volumes.

From my perspective, my financial performance is correlated now with a larger group of counterparties (my local banks and their depositors and the other Australian banks that they interbank lend to and their customers). So I might have a lower rate, but now a collapse in another player will have some small impact on my borrowing rate.

Now by diversifying to other Australian markets (Sydney, Melbourne, etc) I'm only diversifying away part of the risk since the funding risk for me in the Brisbane market is more correlated with the funding risk for me in the Sydney/Melbourne market. But I can diversify by purchasing overseas. The mean has increased, but the volatility has also increased.

Move to 15 years ago. The same investor now goes to any Australian bank for funding. This competition has driven down lending margins further (increased my margins). Now funding is sourced from both local deposits, interbank lending within Australia and overseas lending. I'm now exposed to changes in funding conditions both locally and internationally. But also my bank's more exposed to its counterparties since most of them are also exposed to each other. By diversifying to other Australian markets I'm only diversifying away part of the funding risk. Furthermore, by diversifying to overseas markets I'm still only diversifying away part of the funding risk. Again, both mean and volatility have increased.

3 years ago the same investor can go to any Australian bank, NBL or even overseas lender (in some cases) to fund the purchase of his Brisbane properties. Securitisation has driven down the lending margins further (increased my margins), but again increases the correlation between funding costs in all markets. This further reduces the value of diversification.

My assertion here is that this reduced diversification is not properly understood and has been underpriced. Investors are happy to consider the benefits of increased correlation (which is increased competition and, on average, reduced rates), but ignore (or more likely simply don't understand) that rates are now set more globally then in the past. In a market facing the pressures of new entrants banks may understand it but are unable to properly price for it since if they do they'll lose large swags of market share to competitors who don't understand it.

RHG customers are a prime example of this - their prices have significantly increased relative to the rest of the market, not because they themselves are necessarily poor risks, but because the source of funding accessed by RHG completely evaporated when certain foreign markets collapsed. This is a risk that similar investors a generation ago simply were not exposed to. Did the average RHG customer understand this risk when they took out their loan? I'd hazard a guess, not very likely! And hence, this information asymmetry led to an underestimation in the level of volatility with this product.

There are other reductions in diversification present through a range of other factors that have influenced means. But the point is, they don't just impact the mean, they also increase the volatility.

My point was that the mean changes for good reasons.
I agree that the mean will change, but the drivers that change the mean are simultaneously causing the volatility to increase.
 
QUOTE=Gremlin;520912]

By diversifying to other Australian markets I'm only diversifying away part of the funding risk. Furthermore, by diversifying to overseas markets I'm still only diversifying away part of the funding risk. Again, both mean and volatility have increased.

I agree that the mean will change, but the drivers that change the mean are simultaneously causing the volatility to increase.[/QUOTE]

You are confusing volatility and market risk. Market risk cannot be diversified away, it is in fact defined as the risk (aka market, aka sytstemic) that remains when firm and other specific risks has been diversified away. This is basic investment 101, capital pricing model (CAP-M).

My assertion here is that this reduced diversification is not properly understood and has been underpriced. Investors are happy to consider the benefits of increased correlation (which is increased competition and, on average, reduced rates), but ignore (or more likely simply don't understand) that rates are now set more globally then in the past. In a market facing the pressures of new entrants banks may understand it but are unable to properly price for it since if they do they'll lose large swags of market share to competitors who don't understand it..

Everyone is a poor little innocent the lenders, the borrowers, 'we just didn't know', 'how could anyone foresee this' ? We are all little victims. Enormous talent when we get it right, and the road is smooth bitumen and little victims when things turn bumpy.

RHG customers are a prime example of this - their prices have significantly increased relative to the rest of the market, not because they themselves are necessarily poor risks, but because the source of funding accessed by RHG completely evaporated when certain foreign markets collapsed.... Did the average RHG customer understand this risk when they took out their loan? I'd hazard a guess, not very likely! And hence, this information asymmetry led to an underestimation in the level of volatility with this product.

Risk ignorance is not an excuse. You enter a deal, you should be aware of the risks. That's your job as an investor to price it. Why are the products from the nonbanks cheaper. oh, I see it must be a gift... How could I see it, no other generation of investors had this risk etc etc.

I like this from Peter Bernstein in the Financial Times called 'The Flight of the Long Run.'

"The long-run results we can discern in the data of market history are not a random set of numbers: each event was the result of a preceding event rather than an independent observation. Any starting conditions we select in the historical data cannot replicate the starting conditions at any other moment because the preceding events in the two cases are never identical. There is no predestined rate of return. There is only an expected return that may not be realized."

What is expexted rate of return ? What is volatility ? Why do things revert to the mean in the long term ?

Who really understands the market ?

To me there is no true price of risk, only what the market determines. That is the cycle of booms and busts and creative destruction.

Unfortunately, you cannot have a big boom without a big bust. When you have a three sigma event (what has happened in growth in lending in the last decade and property prices worldwide), then another 3 sigma event is even more likely to occur thereafter.
 
And if this forum could just contain more constructive debative points like those that gremlin and contrary make, this could be a true learning experience.

Kudos to you both.
 
You are confusing volatility and market risk. Market risk cannot be diversified away, it is in fact defined as the risk (aka market, aka sytstemic) that remains when firm and other specific risks has been diversified away.
I don't think I'm confusing the two at all. My point here is that I don't believe the market risk is a static component of the risk to the investor.

Two reasons. First, in this example the lenders slowly but surely over time have absorbed some of the diversification benefit (perhaps at less than fair recompense). Second, I don't believe the market risk is static over time and has grown with the inter-reliance on other lending institutions. So your CAPM theorist 100 years ago ( ;) ) could diversify away more of the total risk than your CAPM theorist today.

I agree with pretty much the rest of your post...

I'm off to a world without internet for a while (and no reception for the BlackBerry either! What joy!), so I'll call it quits on this thread now.

Thanks for the kudos chilliaa
 
great posts gremlin (I gave you kudos as well),
Funny that most people and investor talk about risk and they have no clue that is not a static component and even I believe not measurable correctly (just see in this forum the bull-bear battle where houses are a good or not investment).
The good thing about volatility is that it is measurable and I believe you are pointing the right factor that greatly effect it.
Let me know if you are going to write a book or something about this.
 
That's the RBA argument. The bit I don't get about it is why would higher discretionary income go into bidding up the prices of existing housing stock? Big Macs weren't bid up in price as people's discretionary income rose.
Hi YieldMatters,

Others have already made the case as to why a "luxury" good in economic terms behaves differently to a "basic" good. But in case you were still wondering about whether or not we Australians choose housing as our select luxury good to demonstrate our status, then read the following article by Ross Gittins from some years back:

Housing crisis: We did it ourselves

Ross Gittins said:
The true problem is that our homes are at the centre of our materialist ambitions. As our incomes grow in real terms over time we want to put much of the increase into our homes.

Basically, we have increased discretionary spending, and residential housing is our preferred luxury item for spending it on to signal our affluence to society.

Cheers,
Michael
 
1) People value houses more than Big Macs.
2) Big Macs depreciate to zero value when used.
3) There is unlimited supply/availability of Big Macs.
4) All Big Macs are identical. Impossible to aspire to owning a bigger and better Big Mac.

However, put five Big Macs on an island of 100 starving rich people with no other food source, and they will bid up the price pretty quickly! :D

Which means it's not demand at all. It is limited supply that is the market failure.

Even if we do like to throw all our new wealth into existing housing stock (as Gittens argued) then a supply response should bring the price back down. Easy profits don't last for long in a normal market even if the demand side is insane - new suppliers will enter and undercut eachother.
 
Which means it's not demand at all. It is limited supply that is the market failure.

Even if we do like to throw all our new wealth into existing housing stock (as Gittens argued) then a supply response should bring the price back down. Easy profits don't last for long in a normal market even if the demand side is insane - new suppliers will enter and undercut eachother.
Where will the supply of new houses be ? They'll be built on the peripheries of cities or elsewhere in relatively undesirable locations. The demand for existing stock (which is more desirable because of it's location) will always be higher than demand for poorly located stock.

Existing stock always gets relatively better located (even though it never moves) because new stock is always built in less desirable locations. The medians may remain the same over the long term, but our specific properties become more desirable by more people as more houses are built further out.



A couple of little picture to make it easier for the theorists to understand ;)....

This shows a city of 6 houses - my grandma bought the red one 50 years ago - it was all she could afford - crappiest house furthest from the CBD - really undesirable - dirt cheap.

attachment.php




Fast forward to today.... a few more houses have been built - in fact the city has more than doubled in size (no supply problem here). However, all the houses have been built further from the CBD, 'cos that's the only place where there's any space left. So grandmas house is now in the top 50% of desirable houses in the city.

attachment.php


The house never moved, grandma made no improvements to it, rental yields stayed the same for the whole 50 years, average affordability stayed the same, population grew.... but magically her house leapt from being an completely undesirable house to a v. desirable house, and demand for it skyrocketed.



So, I'd argue that it is demand..... and I think we all agree that supply is an issue too.
 

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Luv the drawings Keithj; must have taken you ages!!

on your last point perhaps that is why "supply and demand" is well recognised economic jargon-speak. The 2 are joined at the hip; you can't have one without the other.

You are correct about grannies house becoming more inner without even moving, in that for many reasons, CBD's come about as places people naturally gravitate to through being near water, rivers, magnificent outlooks (Sydney Harbour, etc). Capital growth is strongest in these places and then over time goes out in waves through the inner then middle and finally the outer suburbs. By the time the original high CBD capital growth vibrates it way to the 25 to 40k's out from the CBD it is largely dissipated. When cities grow, more and more the former outer suburbs become middle burbs and the former middle burbs become inner.

I disagree however about no space left in the CBD or close to CBD areas. What about the rise of medium / high density development. I would guess that places such as LA, Paris, London, etc are extremely high density and that in places such as Melb, Syd or Bris there is stacks of room to fill up the supply close in to the CBD. Just keep knocking down warehouses or 100yr old buildings. Remember "Melbourne 2030". Given that land is less and less freely available, the move is to now build 20 to 60 to 100 accommodations where you used to have 1, 2 or maybe 4.

Big Rog
 
Even if we do like to throw all our new wealth into existing housing stock (as Gittens argued) then a supply response should bring the price back down. Easy profits don't last for long in a normal market even if the demand side is insane - new suppliers will enter and undercut eachother.
YieldMatters,

KeithJ hit the nail on the head. You missed the main point of Ross Gittins' argument as to why prices are our own doing. Here's the key paragraphs:

Ross Gittins said:
No, the real problem is that what most of us aspire to is better-located homes - homes that are closer to the centre of the city, closer to the beach or closer to the harbour.

That's a problem because the supply of well-located land is fixed.

You can pile more dwellings on the same bit of land, of course - and we've built a lot of high-rise apartments lately - but the supply of well-located detached houses is declining as a consequence.

The point is that, because our willingness to pour more and more money into housing is mainly about our desire to move to a better-located home, the main thing it does is push up the prices of houses and units.

Its all about the land and its desirable location. That's why a lot of senior investors avoid areas with no natural boundaries or land release issues and focus on desirable locations with natural limits. I personally love Sydney's Northern Beaches. Its within 20km to the CBD and has the beach to boot. Others have their own pet areas, but most have "desirability" at the heart of the argument. Even gentrification is an extension of desirability in effect.

Cheers,
Michael
 
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