Granny Flat Approval - A guide.

Rockstar said:

Have you looked here for any info? I am not familiar with your area but surely someone can help you out. Maybe you should call Brazen. His contact is on his website.

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Yes I did look there but couldn't find the answer.
Thanks for your effort.
Don't worry I'll be talking to a builder tomorrow.
cheers

I find that builders normally have only partial knowledge of planning regulations. Architects or planners will have a much better understanding. I'm sure a quick call to council would go a long way to, at least, directing you to the area on the dcp where you will find the info you need.

Good luck,

Hi BV,

Sorry it took a while to read your enquiry- I went to Thailand for the Easter long weekend.

Rockstar is right. The 3 m (minimum) rear setback rule applies to Granny Flats under the State SEPP. Your choice is whether to use the State SEPP or Council's own 'DCP' legislation to seek approval for your granny flat project. So I'll outline the basic logic of it all below:

Granny flats are classified as being under the 'dual occupancy' laws. A granny flat on a single lot IS NOT SUB-DIVISION, it is dual occupancy. If you elect to sub-divide the property (and if Liverpool Council allow subdivision for your lot size/width), you can no longer erect a granny flat on the newly created lots. If the newly created land is big enough, you may be able to create a battle-axe handle for the rear property and erect a granny flat + main dwelling on it though...


Nothwithstanding this, you may have to just do a granny flat behind the existing house, and Liverpool Council might allow a 0.9 m rear setback under their DCP (Development Control Plan). As Rockstar says, you'd have to ask them this question OR read their DCP- grab a cuppa and read through it- fun fun. I would do it for you right now, but Ive come back with a huge pile of work to do, sorry.

If you discover they do allow a lesser rear setback you'll be applying under their DCP instead of the cheaper, easier new 'State 'SEPP'. Difference is, the cost for approval is about $3,000 extra for surveyors, engineer and additional submission material, on average. This has been my experience of it anyway.

It's still worth it if the 3m setback is a problem for you AND they allow the lesser setback. If not, you'll have to use the SEPP. You'd be surprised (again, in my experience) that a 3m rear setback will still work, because in your case the distance between the existing dwelling and the rear boundary (18 mtrs+) is really quite ample.
Ive done over 80 granny flat approvals in the last year and that distance is really quite good.

I hope this helps.

Hi Brazen, I've had a win with Byron Shire Council. They've just lifted all sec 94 fees for GF's so it's full steam ahead to get my downstairs GF approved.

I'm sure there would be some violently angry individuals in the shire who had recently paid 15 - 20 odd thousand to get their approvals earlier on in the year. Bet the council won't be reimbursing their fees.

Rockstar said:

Hi Brazen, I've had a win with Byron Shire Council. They've just lifted all sec 94 fees for GF's so it's full steam ahead to get my downstairs GF approved.

I'm sure there would be some violently angry individuals in the shire who had recently paid 15 - 20 odd thousand to get their approvals earlier on in the year. Bet the council won't be reimbursing their fees.

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lol yea, the previous payers of the the levy won't be happy but that's the way it goes unfortunately.

I'm glad Byron changed their policy m8.

Hi Brazen

Your post was very helpful, thanks

Cheers

brazen said:

Hi BV,

The 3 m (minimum) rear setback rule applies to Granny Flats under the State SEPP.

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I'm still unsure how the primary and secondary frontage is determined under the SEPP for corner blocks. Under a council's DCP you can usually nominate the primary frontage, but I think this is not the case for SEPP.

See an example attached. Is it the existing house address that determines the primary frontage (in this case XZY Street) or the more logical (ABC Street)?

It makes a difference for what can fit on a block as a change in frontage changes the "rear" boundary and hence the setbacks for the rear and side. It can also be more difficult to get the landscaped area behind the building line.

For corner blocks:
Under the SEPP, the primary frontage is always the 'named street'. So if the address is 10 Smith Street, and the property is on the corner of Smith St and, say, West St- The front boundary is the one facing Smith St and the rear boundary is the one opposite that. The minimum 'Secondary Setback' (the one nearest to East St) is also 3mtrs. The other boundary setback is minimum 0.9 mtrs.

DCP's are set by Council's wheres the SEPP is the same state-wide.
The same definitions apply under a DCP for what constitutes the front/rear for corner blocks as well...BUT DCP's can be 'modified'. DCP's are not fixed legal documents like SEPP's are.
i.e. You must qualify with EVERY SEPP rule to get approval; but you can ask for a relaxation or variation from a Development Standard under a DCP, such as where a house clearly faces the secondary street.

Your designer/architect wiould need to justify the deviation from the DCP in a detailed report, addressing the variation and supporting it with additional plans, plus a written statement demonstrating that the deviation won't have any adverse effect in relation to the streetscape, adjoining neighbours, the natural and built environment of the locality, noise, aspect etc etc...so it can be done, it just takes more effort and approval time (Council have to have several meetings etc) to achieve it.

If there are objectors it can get frustrating for the client and quite time consuming as well...but we never say never do we

Good info Brazen,

I will be lodging a SEPP 1 objection with my GF DA. I have an existing unapproved area under my house of 63sqm which is 3sqm over the maximum. Council have indicated that I should be able to get it approved. If not I will have to do some reno work to knock out the 3sqm. Will let everyone know if it gets approved.

Rockstar said:

Good info Brazen,

I will be lodging a SEPP 1 objection with my GF DA. I have an existing unapproved area under my house of 63sqm which is 3sqm over the maximum. Council have indicated that I should be able to get it approved. If not I will have to do some reno work to knock out the 3sqm. Will let everyone know if it gets approved.

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Cool. SEPP1 Objections are only required where you breach an LEP prescriptive (not DCP). So if they're asking for the SEPP1 for a DCP variation that's not right- I've seen it where theyve asked for a SEPP1 Objection but only the DCP prescription was breached.

If it is indeed an LEP breach, you can justify the breach by following this guide:
http://www.lakemac.com.au/downloads/SEPP1_Guide_v4.pdf

Ive done a few myself. See a simple one attached.

brazen said:

For corner blocks:
Under the SEPP, the primary frontage is always the 'named street'. So if the address is 10 Smith Street, and the property is on the corner of Smith St and, say, West St- The front boundary is the one facing Smith St and the rear boundary is the one opposite that. The minimum 'Secondary Setback' (the one nearest to East St) is also 3mtrs. The other boundary setback is minimum 0.9 mtrs.

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Thank you, very clear and helpful. I suppose the building line would also match the primary setback so all the landscaped area within the secondary frontage and behind the primary building line being considered behind the building line for calculating landscaped area requirements.

twodogs said:

Thank you, very clear and helpful. I suppose the building line would also match the primary setback so all the landscaped area within the secondary frontage and behind the primary building line being considered behind the building line for calculating landscaped area requirements.

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You're welcome m8. Yes^^ that's right on Lansscaped Area calculations.

brazen said:

Cool. SEPP1 Objections are only required where you breach an LEP prescriptive (not DCP). So if they're asking for the SEPP1 for a DCP variation that's not right- I've seen it where theyve asked for a SEPP1 Objection but only the DCP prescription was breached.

If it is indeed an LEP breach, you can justify the breach by following this guide:
http://www.lakemac.com.au/downloads/SEPP1_Guide_v4.pdf

Ive done a few myself. See a simple one attached.

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Thanks mate,

Council referred me to this form to be filled out and submitted with my DA.

Rockstar said:

Thanks mate,

Council referred me to this form to be filled out and submitted with my DA.

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aah cool, glad they have a form m8, that will make it easier.

thanks for all that published info brazen.
it really is helpful and has been most timely for me.
really good stuff

i am currently looking (again) for a house in Hornsby shire (maybe Kur ring gai) that i can divide into two sections.........one for me and one for an adult son.
both of us to be totally independant but maybe sharing a laundry if needs be.

so far the only place i have seen that is truly a* natural* granny flat is a house that will now be out of my reach price wise i believe.
i will try an offer when my place here sells but i think i will be unable to afford it.
it is upstairs/downstairs with the downstairs being the right size for an approved granny flat .... with an already built kitchen and bathroom and seperate entrance under the one roof.
it slopes to the rear and was purpose built under the main house some many years ago. it is not approved as a granny flat right now however.
it is my first choice.......sigh

other places i am seeing will need to have some additions made .......kitchens at least and bathrooms maybe.
i had no idea til reading your info just now about the storm water arrangements.
one potential property slopes to the rear.
as does another.i dont have sewerage diagrams of them at this point as i am concentrating on the floor plans and locations right now..... without rushing off to see every property.....until i get closer to a sale myself.
one house has a lot of trees so i guess that is a real negative????
it would need only a kitchen added however

the most i am hoping to have to build with any of the places i have seen is a kitchen and maybe extra living space ........depending on the existing building.
i am concentrating on house plans that allow for a *natural* line within the building to work with in dividing and trying to keep maximal privacy for all within those confines

one house that is a possible is a standard house 1970s place with all the bedrooms upstairs.
it is a rare flat block.... and i would look at arranging the rooms upstairs to suitable living areas etc and adding in a kitchen.
downstairs i would arrange one living room into a bedroom for me.
to meet size requirements on the granny flat i might have to have one bedroom upstairs excluded from the granny flat but i dont wish personally to have to use stairs so would simply keep it as a guest room.
does that sound feasible?????
would an upstairs kitchen require a lot of work for fire proofing ??

i have had conversations over the last months with Hornsby council building inspectors and they have been helpful as far as they are able . i understood them to say that i didnt have to have fire walls.
is that right?

the long term plan is that at some point i would probably need nursing care and therefore would rent out a section of the house to pay for that and leave my son (and maybe his family) to have the rest to live in.
it is my attempt to assist him as he assists me and to help him get into a property market while i am alive.
the concept is fine with Centrelink and ATO etc etc

i just need to be able to find the right property and there is virtually none that we can afford that has land for a separate granny flat on it.
the area is subdivided to hell and back )
so we need to modify and add to an existing building i suspect

do you have any thoughts for me please??

many thanks

Hi ditzy dame,

I'll try to help you as best I can here.

If I'm correct in reading your post, you're mostly interested in converting part of an existing house into a granny flat? If that's true, then trees, sewer and drainage won't be an issue; since no new addition or dwelling is being proposed.

'Additions' means to extend the existing house, whether it be up, down or out. Either way 'additions' means they are touching (attached) the existing house and would need to be built with adequate drainage and be adequately distanced from significant trees; and also be built with the location of the sewer mains' in mind. Sewer can always be mitigated, it's just that it can be an expensive affair (refer my guide). Trees can also be removed, but again, a case has to be made to Council if you're extending to within 3-4 mtrs of a significant tree's trunk. Trees can also be pruned (10% max) if that helps- but it all costs extra...so if you can get a block that doesn't have these issues, it always saves you more $.


A fire-rated wall always MUST exist between 2 'internal' (attached) granny flats. So you'll need a fire-proof barrier between them in 3 dimensions (even when one is on top of the other). If the house is brick and one is to be above the other, ALL internal walls/floors/ceilings between them must have fire-rated wall(s). A physical barrier must be created between them. This can be achieved with special plasterboard (with a metal lining in it) or with brick/masonry internals walls. Again, if they are to be on top of each other, the upper dwelling must have separate stairs to the outside world- it must have stairs coming from outside- you cannot use the lower storey to come upstairs. The only exception to this is if some of the downstairs dwelling can be allocated to the upper-storey granny flat so that you can use the stairwell..but it, too, must be sealed from the main dwelling downstairs. This would mean newly created (and sealed) hallways leading directly to the outside. Confused yet?

So whoever told you that you won't need fire-rated walls @ Council (God blessem) is wrong.

If you're only extending laterally (not upstairs), you just need to seal the 2 dwellings from each other with fire rated walls. The fire rated walls must extend up and be structurally supported into the roof cavity. This means the wall frames (if timber) don't have to be load-bearing, they just have to be framed all the way up through the ceiling, into and to the top of the roof itself. Think of the houses in London, how they are all connected, with walls between them- the brick in between each one extends all the way up past the ceilings, up to the roof.

Alternatively, If you're looking to erect a new (detached) granny flat, then the guide I posted is spot-on and should serve you well when looking for a granny flat friendly block.

Hornsby/Ku-Ring-Gai are not the cheapest suburbs in Sydney and you dont get bick blocks for cheap there (that's 4 sure), so I understand your frustration. I really hope this helps you with your search.

Serge.

serge

thank you so much
you are a wonderful resource
i have just come back from physically checking a few places on the outside which has eliminated a few possibles.
it is not that Google lies......it is just that it is not telling all the info for granny flats LOL

your info makes my mission even harder i think.
there is no real possibility for me to buy an existing house with space for a granny flat to be added seperately. the land is pretty impossible to find and if found ......the cost is too high to allow for a separate dwelling to be put in with our current $ availability.

Hornsby is rethinking its tree rules but the draft plan dosnt come out til end of year. i think it is going to be much more sane than currently.

i think i get your drift about the fire walls and it sounds rational enough.

the big question that i have asked council and not got a real reply to (and i guess i understand why) is..............how illegal/legal is it to add in a kitchen of basic sorts to an existing building and call it a bar. how far can i go.???? i understood it precluded an actual stove but have seen homes advertised with no GF permission but a decent enough kitchen included.

all i am really after is seperate quarters that are sensible and seperate for the son and i now ......but rentable in future .
so i can shut the door on him and his stuffs and not share a kitchen ideally.
there has to be a seperate kitchen long term anyway to allow for rental.
if it is a permitted granny flat that is good .....but if it becomes too hard /expensive ......then how far out on a limb would i be going in creating some kitchen situation that was workable within the building envelope.
or even adding in a large living room to two existing bedrooms ( with a DA i am assuming) and adding in a bar area in that living room.
friends have a wonderful son in law who does kitchens and bathrooms and he does nice work

i understand if you prefer not to answer this publicly.
i am just finding it hard to get answers.
should i try and find an assessor to work with me on my search.???
the agent really thinks i have a sale now so the search is more urgent.
i could send you two addresses that i am looking at which show the plans..... if you were prepared to comment please.
???

the house i really want that has the the granny look alike downstairs, is fine as regards the totally separate entrances and exits etc.
it is very adequate in those terms and has a clear closed off doorway internally to seperate the two levels.
fire rating materials would currently be non existant i believe.
if i could possibly swing that pricewise i would probably do well enough to leave it alone and not bother seeking a permit for GF. it has been like that for 40 years approx i belive and rented out at various times i gather.

of the other two two story places i had in mind and looked at today ........one has sold overnight and the other would meet the entrance/exit rules but it has no kitchen for the downstairs granny and it would require an extension on the back to achieve that. i would assume no fire rated materials currently.

this is so much more complex than i had first thought when i started out on this idea 6 months ago and naively assumed that i would get a block and stick the son out the back in a granny place
i have been sick for months so all has been suspended for a good while and tho prices are down......availability of suitable places is no better

thank you

You're welcome dd.

This is all about compliance. Legality. Liability.

I don't mind telling you publicly that most internal work to a dwelling, even opening a wall for example SHOULD go to Council. Heck, even a satellite dish should go to Council...but who actually does it, except for body corporates?

It's not that unusual for a dwelling house to have 2 kitchens (call it a bar!)...my parents have a kitchen in their garage (allegedly)- my dad just loves to cook...mmm yum. They're overseas right now and I miss his cooking...lol I digress!

If, though, you have aspirations of renting out a part of the house (one day) you'll need approval. The other option is to go for a 'boarding house' but that also needs approval, though you won't need fire-rated walls. Boarding houses aren't allowed in all areas and require annual safety inspections + fire extinguishers etc...bit of a headache to be honest.

I should mention rough pricing- an internal granny flat approval + physical works for splitting a single storey dwelling will cost (roughly):
- Approval $5,000 (includes drafting, Certifier fees)
- All Fire Rated Walls to roof cavity + paint: $10,000
- New kitchen (if needed) $7,000+
- New bathroom (if needed) $8,000+
TOTAL: Approx. $30,000

That's^ for quality work.

That's not too bad for what you get- a rentable dwelling within the existing dwelling. In your area that rent would be an extra $300+ pw. You'd pay off the investment within 2 years then it's all extra income.

If it's 2 -storey split (and needs external stairs etc) you'd be looking at more ofcourse- add $10,000 roughly. Stairs ain't cheap.

Hope this helps.
Serge.

brazen....thank you

yes i know about the sat dishes.
one had to be removed off the roof of this house before i came here.
body corporate stuff!!!
which is why i cant add to this rather comfortable place right now.
body corporate and over populated block

i am getting a clearer picture of what is ahead of me.
this helps and is very welcome.
the price is not unexpected but i am very happy to have my pulled from the air price sort of confirmed.

you have a PM.
and again i am very grateful for your sharing of your expertise.
it is appreciated by someone like me with no clue.

pity about your fathers missing food isnt it?????

brazen said:

A fire-rated wall always MUST exist between 2 'internal' (attached) granny flats. So you'll need a fire-proof barrier between them in 3 dimensions (even when one is on top of the other). If the house is brick and one is to be above the other, ALL internal walls/floors/ceilings between them must have fire-rated wall(s). A physical barrier must be created between them.

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Hi Serge

What are the requirements when the whole downstairs area becomes the granny flat. Do the walls of the GF have to be fireproof or only the ceiling? The house was originally a pole home and the lower area was built in downstairs to create the extra space with its own access and no internal staircase between the top and bottom. Do the poles have to be entirely boxed in or is it ok just to seal the top where it meets the ceiling?

cheers, RS