Are you happy to retire by "living out of capital"?

Are you confortable funding your retirement from "spending" capital

  • Yes: I am doing it now

    Votes: 6 7.8%
  • Yes: I plan to do it.

    Votes: 33 42.9%
  • No: I dont have a plan but I may review this option for the future

    Votes: 25 32.5%
  • No: I have reviewed this method and it is unsuitable for me

    Votes: 13 16.9%
  • What Plan?: I got some super, that will be enough!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    77
see_change said:
So what happens if we have a period where we do have no growth or even negative growth for a period of years.
If one stays within "Rental Reality" there has NOT been a 5 year time period within the past 20 years where growth has been less than 5% average.


see_change said:
What happens if interest rates go up and / or banks decide to change their lending policies at some stage.
I agree with Simon . . . retain flexible cash flow. If structured correctly, the cashbond income should see you through most interest rate hikes.



see_change said:
If cash bonds are the only way you can expand you portfolio . . .
Cashbonds are definitely NOT the ONLY way; they are very useful initially to get your portfolio going. Beyond that, like Simon and Julie, when the specific need of serviceability falls away you can live off equity.
Once your portfolio has reached the critical mass of producing more capital growth than you need for living expenses (True financial independence) then the cashbond becomes superfluous.

I personally am not currently using the cashbond; preferring to draw down on my company loan account . . . which is just another method of living off capital.



see_change said:
BTW , I am doing Steve's next course in Sydney , so I might change my mind after that ..... :)
see_change, I look forward to seeing you next week; and I am sure you will find all the answers .....:)

Regards,

Steve
 
Hello all,

Steve: Thanks for your expectedly good answers ;)

I definately agree that living off capital is the way to go, and is my strategy. Rent is too low and too taxable to be relied upon.

In general, its my opinion that cashbonds aka annuities are never required. I believe this to be so because they have 2 purposes:
1) to provide income
2) to provide servicability for further investment.

1) As has already been said in this thread, LOC's and other such similar things will provide me with living expenses.
2) Once I have a nice collection of assets, and hence a good wad of equity, I'm sure no / lo doc loans and similar products will provide me further purchasing ability. This are getting better all the time, and should be great by time I get there :p The Brokers I have spoken to have said that currently most of those aren't very much higher in interest than regular loans.

Of course when i get to this stage I will re-evaluate and do whats best considering the day's economic climate, tax rules, etc.

-Just my 2.2c inc gst ;)
Dave
 
Steve, I've done the course and am doing the cb right now (through Navra) but my query relates to exit strategy.

If you live on capital (post critical mass - by the way how much?) the capital drawn is not tax deductable and it has to be serviced. Yes I understand the CB concept (think I do) but if loans for CBs are only tax deductable for the purposes of producing an income ie servicability of an IP, and there is no other source of income to support you, how do you tax effectively access the capital and service the growing personal loan?

If you access the capital and buy a cash flow type managed fund, the difference between the borrowed % rate and the paid % rate is your income. Not only is this small but these days usually negative!

I've missed something - maybe I'm the evolutionary missing link between the cave man, but I'm confused.
 
Hi Rambada,

You're question is along the same lines as my concerns. That of creating non deductable debt. It has been explained to me that as long as the debt was Originally obtained to purchase or service an income producing asset then regardless of its longer term use remains deductale forever.
Personally I'm not sure this is right given that interest can only be claimed if the asset is actually being used to produce income. But I suppose you can say the loan was related to a purchase of property to give servicability and as long as you still have the property the debt for the bond may remain deductabe.

Then again how important is having the debt deductable at all if your capital is growing at a rate that covers all expenses plus anyway. The exit strategy at the end of a 5 year bond would be simply use the new capital and dont sell or sell your assets and pay down the debt. Deductability of the debt will only create maximum efficiency I suppose.

Another piont to consider is that if your taxable income is $0.00 due to neg gearing then tax deductability is irrelavant.

Great discussion rambada. Hopefully we can learn a bit more about it.

MJK
 
MJK said:
You're question is along the same lines as my concerns. That of creating non deductable debt. It has been explained to me that as long as the debt was Originally obtained to purchase or service an income producing asset then regardless of its longer term use remains deductale forever.
I'd be really careful about how to apply this reasoning in a situation like this....

Your Honour I originally obtained the loan to buy some shares, but changed my mind between signing the loan docs and speaking to my stock broker and bought the porche instead......

I would expect the ATO would take a dim view of people deliberately taking out investment loans & spending the money on personal consumables....

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
I agree Acey , all a bit dubious to me. Do all these rich people hoodwink the ATO? Is it all a big game to see what you can get away with? Its not my style. I like it straight up when it comes to tax assesment.

Can some knowledgable person comment on wether tax deductability of debt is imperative using the living out of capital scenario ?

MJK
 
Hi MJK
When an investor has reached the point where equity is increasing at a significant rate to cover all living expenses. The equity can be realised and then used to grow and maintain the portfolio while the investor lives off the income produced through rents. Therefore, if one where to buy a new car, for example, it could be paid for from the income produced through rents, not the equity release. Then there may be some tax deductable expenses allowable on that purchase.
An example
Portfolio market value 5million
cap growth @ 3% p/a =150K
income from rent 160K p/a
All annual costs aprox 160K
leaves approx 150K * 80% = up to 120K releasable equity for that year(for further growth through investment)
So the gross income for the investor for that year is 160K from the rents.
Living costs and a new car might cost 80K which leaves up to 40K for further investment.
Imagine the above example with a 10% cap growth amount (500K)
Kind regards
Simon
 
Good morning,

So lets say the portfolio is geared with 80% LVR.
This means loans are $4,000,000
This means annual interest @ 7% is $280,000
So we take the equity grab at 120K
This increases borrowing to $4,120,000
This increases interest by a further $8400 to $288,400
Now rents are 160k + the grab is 120k so theres nothing left over. We are still not happening. ( 160k seems too low. It only represents a 3% return on the 5 Mil. ? )

Anyway lets say youve been in the business a while and your LVR is 50% and
your rents are 5%.
This means loans are now $2,500,000 + the grab = $2,620,000
Interest is $183,400
The rents are $250,000 + the 120k is $370,000
So the surplus is $186,600 ( very comfortable )

So 12 mths have passed, you either have to do an annual equity grab or settle for the difference between 250K and 183.4K which is 66K ( not as comfortable.

I can see the equity grab working really nicely with a neutrally geared portfolio but could be not so great with a portfolio that is to negative.

The above examples dont rely on the Interest ( $8400 ) on the grab being deductable at all do they?
Am I missing something ? Or on the right track.

MJK
 
MJK,

This approach is not recommended if your LVRs are at the 80% level.

Try at the 60% level or below...

Also you do not attempt to take out the equity & spend it all in one year.

Use it to provide income for a number of years...remember it is after tax dollars! Whether with an annuity or not is up to whether you need to show an income stream & how good you are at managing your own spending :)

Much too complex for me to spend the time ATM explaining - there have been a few examples given previously in the forum. Or you can speak to someone like Steve Navra to explain it in depth (attend one of his courses).

Cheers,


Aceyducey
 
Thanks Acey,

I did think LVRs would come into it.
Yes, I have done the course but see the course as being only a general introduction to the concept.
There is much after course thinking, learning and applying to be done.

I think it is important to understand possible strategies even if you are not ready to apply them. These things can greatly influence the type of property you buy. EG. If your going to live out of capital maybe forget about the positive cash flow strategy. Or if you need to be nuetral forget about properties that are too negative.

You know how it is. A clear picture of your destination allows for quicker progress. You know visualisation, belief, goals etc...

Cheers
MJK
 
I can see the equity grab working really nicely with a neutrally geared portfolio but could be not so great with a portfolio that is to negative.



MJK[/QUOTE]
Good observation MJK

Like I said in an earlier post. The trick is to stay flexible and balanced with your L/V ratios by freeing up equity in as many ways imaginable.

There are two things that slow investors from growing their portfolio.
Serviceabiliy and "locked up equity" (unrealised)

My example is based on an investor with sgnificant equity and a pretty much nuetral cash flow. It was not supposed to represent some kind of formula.

Kind regards
Simon
 
Living off Capital

Perhaps we should start with the quote from our esteemed accountant:
Originally Posted by DaleGG


It is when you borrow money from the banks and use those funds to enjoy a lifestyle without paying tax.

Because the money is borrowed, it is not classed as income and hence the tax free status of it.

However, the trap is that your debt level is rising each year and you must be personally comfortable with this notion, and, find a banking source that will be comfortable with you doing so.

Obviously, you need to have a reasonable level of assets to be able to do this.

Dale

It has been my observation that the vast majority of very wealthy Australians live off capital. Example is that a certain Mr. Packer is purported to declare a taxable income of just $25K per annum.

Now I think it is reasonable to assume that such people are getting their living expenses from somewhere . . . hence funding out of a capital base.

Dale of course is absolutely correct when he says that one would need a reasonable level of assets to do this.

The choices in life revolve around the fact that you either work to produce an income, or you control assets that produce the income for you. The balance between self and assets as regards income accrual is the measure of how close one is to financial independence.
FINANCIAL INDEPENDENCE then is perhaps the point where your assets are producing sufficient income to cover your lifestyle needs.

STEP 1:
Acquire the assets!!
Yes it seems obvious and is this not the path that most of us are on?

STEP 2:
Structure the income you wish to receive.

There are many choices here:
a) Day job
b) Wrapping
c) Positively cash flowed property
d) Dividends from shares
e) Interest on cash
f) Other types of income

Generally most of these form part of a taxable income stream.

My view has always been that we are educated from the earliest days to work hard to earn money. We are encouraged to hop onto a treadmill and further encouraged to keep running . . . literally until we drop. (See working beyond retirement 65 years – Costello)
Actually, this is brilliant for the country because someone has to pay for parliamentary pensions and other very necessary infrastructure. This is termed the tax system.

So, no argument from me . . . however some people prefer to contribute to the system in a slightly different way:

Own properties = Housing other families. (Govt. certainly needs all the help it can get as there are apparently in excess of 250,000 families on the Govt. housing waiting list.)

Buy shares = capitalizing companies, which provides employment.

LIVING OFF CAPITAL
What does this entail?

In the first instance one certainly needs to come to terms with the fact that “NET EQUITY” is NOT debt!

So if one purchases a property valued at $400,000 and borrows (80%) $320,000, YOU ARE NOT IN DEBT . . . you are in NET CREDIT to the tune of $80,000.
Note that your LVR is 80% (I will refer to this later)

Now also note that you might just as well have deposited the $80.000 in a bank and you would still be in credit for $80,000. (NO LEVERAGE and NO MISCONCEPTION of DEBT.)

Let us further assume that the property is Negatively Geared:
Some people regard this as bad debt, because it is thus “costing” you money.
‘Repayment’ of the loan is NOT a debt, it is merely an expense!!

Looking beyond this one might suggest that the property achieves average capital growth of at least 5% per annum. If you do not believe this is possible, then perhaps property is not for you. (The average is 7% for the major Australian cities – past 20 years: ref REIA)

$400,000 (LVR 80%) at 5% p.a. = $20,000 capital increase.

So, IF the property has increased in value and is revalued at $420,000, then draw down the extra equity up to the same LVR. (80%)
Calculation:

$420,000 X 80% = $336,000 less original loan of $320,000.
Net capital = $16,000.
Please note that the cost of the extra loan at say 7% = $1,120 p.a.
So Capital of $16,000 – $1,120 = $14,880 NET after expenses.

Lets be prudent and conservative and reinvest $4,880 into shares / cash offset / pay down debt . . . leaving a balance of $10,000 of passive income. (One step along the path to financial independence.)

Simply stated then:
If your requirement for financial independence is $50,000 net of tax, then you need to control 5 properties on the same basis as appears above.

Paradigm shift: $2,000,000 of asset and $1,600,000 of loans. (Note: Also 80% LVR)
(Q) So you are not sleeping because of the $1.6 mil of loans??
You are not in debt!! you are still in 20% Credit.

Some questions:

(Q) Serviceability issues: What happens if I cannot get further loans to duplicate the process?
(A) Please read up and gain a FULL understanding of cashbond structure.

(Q) What happens if the properties do not average a 5% p.a. average growth?
(A) Please read up and gain a FULL understanding of “Rental Reality”.
(A) Do NOT spend in excess of whatever the properties have appreciated.

(Q) How does this work in the long term??
(A) Lets consider a 5 year time period:

$2,000,000 of property growing at 5% p.a. for 5 years = $2,552,557-59 at the end of the 5th year. Equity gain of $552,557-59.

Assuming you have drawn down the full 80% of the gain: = $442,046
Cost of repayments at 7% pa = $30,943 X 5 years = $154,716
$442,046 –$154,716 = $287,330 / 5 years
Therefore passive income per year = $57,466 p.a.

Note that the excess in year 1 of $4,880 after expenses has grown to an excess of $7,446 at year five. Reinvesting this amount each year in shares also at 5% p.a. becomes substantial over time!

COST OF MAINTANING THE STRUCTURE:
Associated costs include the cost of the cashbond (Difference of the interest charged to borrow the money against the return on the annuity); Possible LMI; extra interest cost if using LO DOC / NO DOC loans and also affordability of Negative Gearing cash flow.

All these extra costs can be paid out of the annual passive income, but will of course reduce the net passive income for financial independence.
The solution is obviously to go further into “net credit” so as to reach the desired level of passive income required for Financial Independence.

The income is of a capital nature, so as pointed out by Dale GG is NOT taxable.
The passive income of $50,000 net of tax is produced by being “in credit” to the tune of $400,000.
Producing the same level of income from net rentals at a 30% tax rate would require at a 4.5% rental return, a gross income amount of $82,094 / 4.5% = Total net assets of $1,824,317!! (4.56 X)

No wonder the smiling rich are getting richer!

Regards,

Steve
 
Steve Navra said:
FINANCIAL INDEPENDENCE then is perhaps the point where your assets are producing sufficient income to cover your lifestyle needs.


Now here's a post to print and study at length! :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi Steve

Must congratulate you on your presentation . For anyone who hasn't been to see him , he is well worth listening to. Even if you don't agree with every thing he says , you will certainly find elements of his plan that will help you achieve you goals quicker.

There were a couple of issue about cash bonds that he explains better there than on the forum.

In one way he looks at Cashbonds as a way to satisfy the banks criteria for servicability , rather than actually relying on them to create servicability. He say he doesn't actually want you to spend the income generated by the cash bond, untill the money you are spending in the cash bond has been replaced by a similar increase in the value of the underlying asset.

The rental reality is essentially a way of ensuring that you don't buy at a time when the market isn't over valued. In technical analysis terms ( correct me if I'm wrong Steve ) he creates a moving average of acceptible purchase price based on rental returns. As with all moving averages, this will lag behind actually prices when the market is moving rapidly , so will make it harder to find suitable properties at times the market could be overheated.

He mentions the importance of have some diversification of assets, including some in cash to act as a buffer in case of short term hicoughs

I would disagree with Steve's statement that Technical analysis ( of shares ) attempts to predict the future. While there are some people who certainly try to do this, most of the successful traders I have met, use TA as a tool to shift the balance of probabilities in their favour, but then rely on various different techniques on trade and money managment , and this is the area wheere the good traders seems to sort them selves from the 90 % who loose.

Having said that Steve's experience in the Share market is prolonged and successfull, and I will certainly be looking at putting money in his managed fund when appropriate.

I think all of the individual elements of his plan are worthwhile additions to the knolwedge basse of any serious property investors tool box. I can see myself using them , and his service at some stage in the future ( assuming he'll still talk to me ..... :) )



My main concern is when he puts the whole system together and uses it to it's logical conclusion. There are three issues that concern me.

1) I think it's unlikely that anyone could find a time in history when any property bought using his rental reality screening has gone backwards. I'm certainly not going to sit down and try and find one. BUT we have just gone through ( to the best of my knolwedge ) the longest property cycle in the history of Australia. Could it be that somethings might change ?
When someone asked Steve what would happen if the value of the properties did go down for five years, his answer was " a Disaster ". There are several elements of Steve's plan that would help insulate people from this happening. and to say the chances of this happening are remote , would be an understatement , but the fact that it exists is to me a fundamental flaw in his overall system. Obviously any investing involves risk. I think that an educated investor can have a pretty good idea of what is likely to happen over the next 1-2 years , but beyond that IMHO it's guess work.

2) As Dale points out , you are relying on an ever increasing level of Debt.

If you are happy with that fine. I can certainly see the difference between good debt and bad debt, but when you''re getting up to levels of assets of say 5 mill, with a LVR of 80 % , I know my sleep of night factor would be kicking in big time. As many of his investors are mum's and Dad's , I wonder how they will react emotionally when they get up to these levels , and there's another 911.


3) While Steve points out that Technical Analysis doesn't predict the future , in the way he sets up his system , he in a sense , is making predictions about the future.

He is predicting that the way the banking and tax system is currently structured will stay essentially the same , so people will still be able to use the same financial structures and ploys in twenty years time that they can use now.

One only has to look around to see that the banking and tax structure around now are significantly different to what they were 10 and 20 years ago.

Obviously if changes happen you can deal with them at the time , but the level of debt that is required to make the system work , could affect ones future choices.

At the moment one of the hot topics of debate in the economy is the ever increasing level of personal debt, and the fact we are spending more than we earn. This is a concern to the government. At this stage the system Steve is using wouldn't be even a blimp on the radar at the ATO , however there could be measures designed to reign the level of personal debt which could cause an impact. If there is ( as there will eventually be ) a more significant down turn in the property market , maybe the banks will tighten their lending criteria just at the wrong time.

See Change
 
Hi seechange
We used Steve's cash bond structure with a "next step " type of attitude back in Aug 2001. If forumites where to read my original post, I asked the question "Where to from here?"
I believe, Steve repeatedly said to everyone at his talks at the time to "DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH".
How many people out there just want someone else to do it all for them?
We've moved on from his structure about six months after setting it up but at the time it helped us take a huge step forward in growing our portfolio and improving our lifestyle choices.
The formula Steve has shown is an example but when used in reality must be tailored to an individual's circumstances and its success very much depends on the individual's motivation, due diligence, flexibility and persistance.
Steve offers a structure for living of capital - IMHO for a structure to work you have to tailor it to your needs and comfort zone.
Kind regards
Simon
 
Hi all

When Steve presented his formula to Simon and I several years ago, I was at first somewhat bamboozled. It took a while for me to wrap my head around the concept of living off equity and increasing our level of debt. Simon and I spent countless hours analysing the formula and how it could work for us. Steve spent time with us explaining how it worked and he helped us to expand our thinking.

For me the bottom line to this whole thread is let knowledge and confidence overcome your fear. The more you experience and the more you know the less you will fear. If you are not comfortable with the idea of living off equity you are probably not ready to do so.

Julie

Audentes Fortuna Juvat
Fortune favours the bold
 
simonjulie said:
Hi all

If you are not comfortable with the idea of living off equity you are probably not ready to do so.

Julie

Audentes Fortuna Juvat
Fortune favours the bold

Obviously there are some people who are happy with this concept. I wouldn't say I'm not ready to do it. In my personal situation I don't need it.

I talked to Steve for almost an hour , three years ago at Nivia's original Canberra BBQ . He was quick to point out that In my personal situation I didn't Need to use cash bonds for servicability.

As Simon says " We used Steve's cash bond structure with a "next step " type of attitude back in Aug 2001" . My recollection is that you have said that you subsequently cashed the cash bond in ( Correct me if i'm wrong ). I think that this was a great way to use it.

As I said in my post I think that all of the elements of Steve's approach are usefull at the appropriate time , It's when he puts the whole package together and uses it demontrate how you can generate an ongoing income , that relies on an ever increasing debt , basically at an LVR of 80 % .

Knowing that you have been investing in the market for several years I would be interested to know what your LVR is. Given the rapid capital gains over the last two years , mine is down to about 35 %.

As with many people on the forum I was very impressed when Julie gave her speech in the early days of Freestylers. You are a dynamic couple , who were prepared to step into the market at a time when most people were saying why would you want to buy in canberra .... . I could understand if you were prepared to accept those sorts of LVR's , but Steve does say that his target is "Mum's and Dad's" . Sure we're both mum's and Dad's , but I don't think either you or I fit the prototype that would be considered a " mum and Dad " investor. How will they react to any unforseen changes ?

Again , you and I will be ok . We'll have seen the change coming, or have contingency plans ir we'll be able to see opportunities that might arise , and even if times are tight for a while we'll get through.

Steve is always one to welcome comments about his ideas. These are my comments . I think they are valid.

I can see the logic behind his system as a whole , but I think it makes too many basic assumptions to be a stand alone system.

See Change
 
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