A VERY interesting question...

Then there is the curly one of supply and demand. There is a limited supply of inner city land. You will always pay a premium for it and rarely in historical research have I ever seen it not be negative geared. I doubt selling now with the vision of getting back in in the bust will work at all there. It just can't happen as the demand is too strong.
I guess the question is whether this premium is a constant premium on top of the base - a premium of lets say 80% on top of the average realestate market - or whether it has a life of its own. Not sure on that one. For the moment anyway Sydney inner city seems to have a life of its own.

I will acknowledge while my confidence in this move is still strong it isn't as strong as it was before I started chatting with you lot! :eek:
 
But it just went up 78% in only a few years (which has never happened before)...

Hmmm....

Anyway, I've posted my 2c on D&G and on this thread, and this was only after a PM reply to another forum member, otherwise I wouldn't have even bothered doing this.

If only a property investing dinosaur, like Michael Croft (no offence :D ), who has been through something like 5 or 6 property cycles was still posting he would have shut us all up pretty quickly.

Good luck with you ING savings account YM, hope it does really well :D :p , and hurry up and start that thread on Property Market Economics and be done with it...

GSJ

PS: Sunfish, how much have your sold properties gone up since you thought they were going to crash? Care to share like YM...? :D
 
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Hmmm....
Good luck with you ING savings account YM, hope it does really well :D:p , and hurry up and start that thread on Property Economics...
If I'm open enough to share it's probably not fair that I be ridiculed!

As I said at least I have the courage of my convictions and I'm not ashamed to talk about it.

Are all these conversations archived? I want to pull them out in a few years! ;) ;)
 
In property you PAY your bank and your tenant for the priveladge of taking on risk!

Actually YM, you'll be pleasantly surprised to know that when you are a real property investor, the tenant actually PAYS you - it's called RENT!!! :D

Sorry mate, I just couldn't help it :D !

GSJ
 
Actually YM, you'll be pleasantly surprised to know that when you are a real property investor, the tenant actually PAYS you - it's called RENT!!! :D

Sorry mate, I just couldn't help it :D !

GSJ

I think you know exactly what I mean! But that sort of logic gets in the way of the dream ...

Anyway - this thread is slowly dying so will make my new one soon - I promise!
 
YM, sorry just one more thing...were you expecting rents to drop too???

Using your own property example, if you bought at $187k in 2002, and say this was at 90% LVR, this means borrowings of $168300.

If you use an interest rate of say 7.57%, that is an interest of $12740 pa.

If the current rent is $300 pw, this is a rent of $15600 pa.

That means you would now have been 'cash flow positive' by $2850 pa!

And, with a current valuation of say 349k, that means your net equity would now have been $162000!

So...you would have gone from being negatively geared to being positively geared in just 5 years, and have generated $162k in equity in the meantime.


This property would now be costing you nothing to hold, and in fact be giving you cash in hand, and may continue to grow further in value in the medium to long term.

If in the short-term property values don't increase or even fall (eg. the property market crashes or a property armageddon occurs :eek: ), who cares! - it's costing you nothing to hold anyway.

The extra cash flow can be used to reduce the principal on the loan and bring your LVR (which started at 90%, and is now just 48%!) down to an even more conservative level.

This will in turn reduce you interest payments and make the deal even more cash flow positive.

Further, if you did what most other property investors here already do, you would have established a redraw or LOC facility against that 162k equity (to 'lock in' that equity increase) which you could tap into in case you can't service the holding costs...oh hang on...I forgot, there are NO net holding costs, it's cash flow positive! :D

Well, anyway, if interest rates went up so high that the whole deal became negatively geared again (ie. this means a >1.7% increase in interest rates in one hit - to >9.27% pa - when the RBA has been increasing rates at just 0.25% at one time, and also note that investors can fix interest rates to protect against this too), you could still tap into this huge redraw/LOC facility you've set up to tide you over in the short-term.

Further, if you really did your due diligence and understood the local supply/demand factors, seeing that this was actually a pretty good IP at the start, would not have been too hard at all.

Not trying to rub it in mate, just completing my point...which you've greatly assisted by sharing your personal example. :D ;)

To me, this is ALL there is to residential property investing - it's THAT simple.

I've used an example with numbers from just one property...but many people on this forum, including myself, replicate this very simple process and do it cumulatively and progressively by buying several properties over time.

Alex is right in saying that until you get a few IP's under your belt, it's hard to really see just how powerful (and quick) this remarkably simple strategy for wealth creation can be.

GSJ

PS: If I haven't swayed you to my point of view after this post, I never will.

PS: I've just given you all the residential property investing 'secrets' :D .

PS: Don't you just love bold, underline and smilies, there's actually a maximum of 5 per post!
 
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Values go up, values go down, values stagnate. Longterm and going on past history, real estate goes up and fairly attractively at that.

Over the REALLY long term, property keeps up with inflation.

Since 1960s in Australia, it has outpaced incomes and rents, because it is in a debt-fueled speculative bubble that can't continue on indefinably.

What did all the nobles get rich from? Certainly not the rents from the peasants; it was the land value or capital growth. Of course to have capital growth you need to have others who want your land and will offer a handsome sum
for it.

Ha ha, this is hilarious.... wait, are you actually serious?

The nobles got their land in conquest or service to the king and passed it down generation to generation. They were holders of land right in an agrarian economy, the wealth was extracted from the land via peasant labor and their rents.

Did you read some history book passed out at a get rich via Real Estate convention where it said the nobles took out lines of credit to take out their "equity" on their estates!???

Nobles certainly didn't run their places at a loss like landlords do today!
 
Nobles certainly didn't run their places at a loss like landlords do today!

It is certainly an accounting loss however is it a real economic loss if your rent is covering the true cost of capital? i.e. 7% less 4% inflation = 3% which is pretty much what rent is.

I think it is important to establish it is loss making or not and as yet I can't decide, I am swinging around to the thought that resi IPs may have some long term benefit by holding, even if neg geared.
 
further to that tho, if you can only ever access say 80% of the capital value, then that means you have 20% sitting there doing little or nothing. if you extracted that 20% and worked it harder you may be better off than the tedium of being a resi landlord
 
Over the REALLY long term, property keeps up with inflation.

Since 1960s in Australia, it has outpaced incomes and rents, because it is in a debt-fueled speculative bubble that can't continue on indefinably.

So HG, the basis for your view is that the last 40-odd years are an aberration that cannot be repeated, so at some point in the future we're going to have to pay for the price for our genearation-long debt binge.

You're basically saying the entire history of the current generation (you were born way after it started, yes?) Not coincidentally, that would be right after the yanks took away the gold standard. So the only way the world can go back to what you believe is a sane level would be to destroy all the extra money supply we've created in the last 40 years and go back to a gold standard. The upheaval would most likely involve the destruction of assorted governments.
Alex
 
I don't believe we'll see a return to a gold standard, however we might see some digital currency with a gold backing used for international trade.

You don't need a return to a gold standard to realise that debt can't increase faster than income forever. Say you spend $105 for every $100 you earn. Eventually you'll have to stop doing that. If you only spend $100 for every $100 you earn the amount of spending in the economy drops by 5% and we see a recession. If you start paying down the debt, that's even worse.

At the moment Australia MUST borrow from overseas to spend it's way out of recession each year. This can't go on forever, obviously! The only question is how far are we away from maximum debt serviceability?

The boomer generation for their entire lives has only seen an increase in:

-house prices
-debt levels
-available energy (except for a temporary politically caused blip in the 70s)

Not only are they comfortable with the idea of borrowing as the future will be easier/better/richer than the present, they've internalised it into a belief system. Whether you choose to believe the most pessimistic peak oil doomsdayers or the most optimistic oil companies, net available fossil fuel energy WILL PEAK THEN DECLINE in my working lifetime. The old rules won't apply any more.

But, it doesn't really matter to me whether house prices keep going up, I look upon buying a house as getting something that yields tax-free shelter saving me rent - so the only thing that matter is whether rent goes up. Do you think it'll triple while prices remain the same to justify current value of my house?
 
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Tell me, if you think property is so expensive now, why didn't you buy when it was cheaper, say in the late 90s or 2000?


I did... actually I bought 6 over the period from ~ early 90's to 2006... (also as of 2006, I've now sold 5 and I've only held PPoR ).

Why ? because there is a limit to which any bull market can reash before ceasing to be a bull market.. demand/supply, taxation and easy credit have all helped this bull along... I suspect at least 2 of those 3 will stop assisting the bull (or have already).

We are not talking about some kind of SuperCycle (ala Commodities) that has previously paused for 20 - 30 years... we are talking about housing.
 
I did... actually I bought 6 over the period from ~ early 90's to 2006... (also as of 2006, I've now sold 5 and I've only held PPoR ).

So after paying all that CGT and selling costs, how much do you think your sold properties have fared in price in the last 2 years, after you thought they had peaked and were set to crash?

Care to share like YM...? :D

GSJ
 
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I don't believe we'll see a return to a gold standard, however we might see some digital currency with a gold backing used for international trade.

Bretton Woods II, then.

But, it doesn't really matter to me whether house prices keep going up, I look upon buying a house as getting something that yields tax-free shelter saving me rent - so the only thing that matter is whether rent goes up. Do you think it'll triple while prices remain the same to justify current value of my house?

Given supply and demand the way it is now, I definitely think for the next couple of years rents will go up faster than prices (especially since I expect prices to stay level or even fall for the next couple of years).
Alex
 
This property would now be costing you nothing to hold, and in fact be giving you cash in hand, and may continue to grow further in value in the medium to long term.

If in the short-term property values don't increase or even fall (eg. the property market crashes or a property armageddon occurs :eek: ), who cares! - it's costing you nothing to hold anyway.
But we are coming from totally different places. As Australia's debt becomes more and more and more unsustainable holding property is becoming more and more and more risky. By risky I mean it could go up further yes but I give it at least equal chance of collapsing. If you had that view you would behave like me too - I don't think you are silly.

So for me to hold a risky asset I want more than a neutral economic return. I want a REWARD for my risk. That is, I want a yield at least 2 or 3 % higher than my cost of capital - probably more considering the size of the risk. Getting a reward for risk is normal in every other investment vehicle .... except for property. In fact the common understanding that a cash flow neutral property is a 'bargain' says to me how sick the psychology of property investing is.

Anyway - I don't know if you will understand where I am coming from - but I did my best to let you into my head!!! :eek:
 
So HG, the basis for your view is that the last 40-odd years are an aberration that cannot be repeated, so at some point in the future we're going to have to pay for the price for our genearation-long debt binge.
That's where I'm coming from too. If you get time you should download some household debt figures and some figures on median incomes. The detachment of debt from incomes has been amazing. If you can get it by geography it might even give you some target 'buying' areas! i.e. a desperation index! :cool:
 
Oh boy... :rolleyes:

Anyway, I gave it a crack.

As for the likes of 'HG', I wonder if you do this 'baby boomer' tirade with your mummy and daddies? Might have to say bye byes to that inheritance, presuming it hasn't already happened.

It's almost as if some of you posting here recently are hoping and praying for a huge crash to justify to yourselves selling your properties at the wrong time, and, subsequently potentially being priced out of the property market for an indefinite period of time.

Good luck with it YM, even though it's completely out of your control.

GSJ.
 
When you don't have property it's much more warm and fuzzy to think that the whole thing is going to crash. And there is certainly plenty of fact and academic support for this view.

When you have property, of course you're more likely to believe that it'll always go up.

I take a middle road: it'll go up over the long term, but there will be periodic painful busts (basically, more of what we've had so far). By buying early (and I'm not much older than YM or HG) and keeping the LVRs conservative, I make sure I'll survive a bust and come out even stronger.

It's not a matter of 'should I invest and get killed in a bust, or not invest and miss out on a boom'. Do it conservatively and you can avoid both risks. Many members have survived busts before.
Alex
 
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