Heatherton, Victoria

Hi Kev,

Yes a very good reply . . . :)

What I am saying is . . . somewhere in the equation is a value statement. (Why ANYONE would pay more / less for anything.)
Yes I do appreciate that 'value' is in the eye of the beholder!

Yet some people buy new and others buy old . . .

Due diligence means making a value assessment of what you are buying. . . and of course the reason that you buy something in the first instance.

Thank you for your positive response :)

Regards,

Steve

PS: I must admit to becoming a little bit weary from the continual attack on some of my methodology . . . suffice to say that myself personally and many who employ these criteria (with or without my help) are enjoying a great degree of success and over a long time period. This success is reflected in the fact that my educational courses are generally fully booked out: ALL BY REFERRAL from happy and successful people.

It might be more interesting if my knowledgeable and highly cynical critics would post their FULL METHODOLOGY for success (results over the long term might be useful too) and let the rest of us critique their journey to financial independence.
 
Hi All,

I am undoubtedly one of the "highly cynical critics" My FULL METHODOLOGY is already written in a book by Jan Somers. IT can be read for free at many libraries. For those who have not read Jans books, they advocate buying median priced housing when you can afford it.
So Steve seeing as you want other people to give their full methodology for free, why don't you put yours in a book for everyone to see?? Maybe you should post it here first?? Please don't just mention some philosophy that has worked in the last 5-6 years of boom times.

bye
 
bill.l

you have a flair for keeping things interesting

how does a follower of Jan's method overcome debt serviceability

it seems obvious you don't use cashbonds

janfan
 
re;

" Travel by car, with tolls

The Heath to Kings Way, Melb – 24.81 Km with an estimated travel time of 36 mins
Waverley Park to Kings Way, Melb – 25.62 Km with an estimated travel time of 34 mins

Travel by car, without tolls.

The Heath to Kings Way, Melb – 19.81 Km with an estimated travel time of 26 mins
Waverley Park to Kings Way, Melb – 24.11 Km with a estimated travel time of 29 mins. "


Are you saying its quicker not to use the toll roads ?
 
Originally posted by hwd007
Are you saying its quicker not to use the toll roads ?
Click to expand...

Yep, it is. There are no tricks here. There are no toll roads from Heath to Melb CBD, however if you choose to take toll way you need to travel around 5km sideway to have the privilege :)
Waverley Park sits next to Monash freeway. There are tolls on Monash and it is indeed the fastest way to the CBD.

Fortunately software isn’t smart enough yet.
 
Originally posted by Bill.L
I am undoubtedly one of the "highly cynical critics" My FULL METHODOLOGY is already written in a book by Jan Somers. IT can be read for free at many libraries. For those who have not read Jans books, they advocate buying median priced housing when you can afford it.
So Steve seeing as you want other people to give their full methodology for free, why don't you put yours in a book for everyone to see?? Maybe you should post it here first?? Please don't just mention some philosophy that has worked in the last 5-6 years of boom times.
Click to expand...

OH PUH-LEASE,

This has got to be the BIGGEST COP-OUT I have EVER seen.

So what have we here?
Is it now Mrs. Bill.L Somers??
Is this a CO-AUTHOR of a very successful series of books on Property Investment?

YOUR FULL METHODOLOGY?? You have to be kidding!
Any half-witted second hander can claim to have read a book/s . . . this doesn’t give you the right to claim any credit for the methodology contained within these words.
THAT ‘right’ is reserved for these (Jan Somers) who have achieved success and then portrayed (in a book) their achievements as the methodology for success.

This forum is a font of knowledge . . . along with the many wonderful books it remains an educational tool that we all use to gain further knowledge and to share experiences that might lead others to success. It is horribly spoilt by the KNOCKERS of the world.

I take very strong exception to your continual negative and cynical attacks against my sincere effort to freely share some of the methods I employ.

Originally posted by Bill.L
So Steve seeing as you want other people to give their full methodology for free, why don't you put yours in a book for everyone to see??

IS THIS NOT EXACTLY WHAT I AM DOING??

1) I run educational weekends for all who might wish to learn from some of my experience . . . for all intent and purpose these are “FREE” the nominal cost of $286 covers the cost of the room and equipment hire, teas and lunches supplied. There is no financial profit made from the actual weekend and I supply a book of information, CD with various property spreadsheets, MY TIME and reams of data that can be used for purposes of due diligence. Furthermore I think that I am more than generous with this education . . . the latest example being that I am currently on a ‘plane flying to Perth (at my own expense) to run a course in WA; without any benefit of accruing business for my group. We do not have a WA branch and I do not take on clients if I can’t offer them ongoing service. So I am doing this purely because I have been asked to run a course in Perth and for the love of what I do.

2) I devote a heap of time (day and night!) to contributing to the forum discussions and answering (in your case VERY PATIENTLY :) ) all and any questions that are posed. Within time restraints I do not believe I have failed to reply to any of the hundreds of e-mails I personally receive from forum members who might request more detail than I might be able to provide in the format of the forum.

3) I have allowed ALL who have requested (for reasons of personal finances) FREE attendance to the weekend courses.

4) I have personally achieved financial independence (1990 to 1998 NOT JUST in the last 5/6 years) . . . so I believe I have earned the right to share my methodology with whomever wishes to listen.

5) I have never refused any of the Somersoft Forum groups an evening of my time FREE when they have requested me to speak at their meetings.

6) At the courses I freely answer ALL & ANY questions posed . . . both about my personal achievements or about the structure of the methodology

7) I DO NOT purport to be a GURU . . . nor do I enforce my opinions on anyone, nor do I KNOCK anyone else’s methods. I merely portray what has logically worked for me.

8) I repeat that I do all this for the LOVE OF MY OWN PERSONAL JOURNEY; beyond the free education that I offer, each individual of their own volition chooses if they wish to utilise our services AND even then I DO NOT charge a fee . . . rather we might EARN an income IF we perform (Add Value) for the individual client.

9) THIS IS MY CONTRIBUTION . . . this is MY BOOK and it is not for sale, it is FREE

So, WHAT HAVE “YOU” PERSONALLY ACHIEVED? And aside from continual and cynical KNOCKING under the guise of the attacks being ‘your opinion’ (without bothering to attend my course to find out how the structure might work AND which I have offered to you at no cost) . . . what is YOUR contribution to this community?

I have previously requested that we should move on, beyond the personal attacks and get back on the track of making a positive contribution to this forum.

Yet . . . hardly a day passes without another NEGATIVE post from you.

So Bill.L GET OFF MY CASE !!

By all means, PLEASE share with us the benefit of YOUR OWN methodology of achieving financial independence . . . DO NOT HIDE BEHIND other successful peoples (Jan Somers) success stories. From what I recall you started some 20 years ago purchasing property . . . IF your methods are sound, you surely by now would have achieved well beyond the definition of financial independence? I am sure we would all love to learn from your vast experience.

FINALLY:
I think it might be useful if someone posted a survey on the forum as to whether they wish me to continue with my contribution.
I will happily withdraw if the members feel what I say is inappropriate.

I have followed the forum with much joy, passion and love . . .
Lately, there isn’t much enjoyment for me with YOU around.

Sincerely,

Steve

PS: I will remain INDIFFERENT to whatever response you wish to post . . . I am over you.
(Happily I will be guided by the other members wishes)
Click to expand...
 
Steve,
I don't think we need a poll.
99.99% of the members here know that your contributions are valuable (and definitely not inappropriate).

Bill L, get over it.
 
To all forumites

I believe it would be the forums loss if someone like Steve withdraws his contribution from it. He is someone who has freely shared both his methodologies and given a lot of his time to add value to this forum. He has not asked that you follow those methodologies, he has merely told you what they are. You can then make an informed decision as to whether you wish to adhere to them. They whole idea of a forum is to share information and ideas. The moment people feel that they will be critised or personally attacked for posting in this forum, you will no longer have a forum.

I , for one, would like to see Steve continue to contribute to this forum as I believe he adds immense value.

regards
Gazza
 
Bill,
I wouldn't be able to put it better than Steve, I won't even try. But he has made some very valid points. Unlike most people that question Steve's strategy by asking constructive questions that benefit everyone, you just seem to rehash all the old arguments that really don't hold much water anyway.
I think that it's great that you seem to have successfully achieved financial independence (well, I assume so, considering you've been at it for twenty years), but attacking a strategy that you know very little about really doesn't do anyone any favours.
You've been offered a free seat at the seminar, but you don't seem too interested in taking it up. Why? What is it that you are afraid of? You might learn something? Steve might be right? I know from having had a number of personal one on one conversations with Steve that is is only too willing to share EVERYTHING he knows and he wants to share it with EVERYONE. A rarity indeed in this society of one minded individuals.
Bill, it would be great to get some more detailed information from you about your property exploits, I don't believe for a second that you focussed absolutely on Jan's strategy for 20 years, surely you added a few of your own bits and pieces?
Don't be afraid to share your experiences, cause I'm sure plenty of people on the forum would love to hear something positive from you.

Mark
'no hat, some cattle (but the herd is growing)'
 
Hmmmm.........I'm just about 'over' this one too........

I think I previously said 'The Forum' was the winner of some of these discussions, but personally I think some of this is starting to go too far.

If I was badgered to this ridiculous extent I think I would have said to %*!@ Off too!!

Should every Forum Member who conducts a business remotely related to property be interrogated to this level? I don't think so.

Jan, how many properties do you have and where? Dale, prove to us the properties you have bought were well researched. Rolf, tell us how many clients you have and how many have ever been dissatisfied.....

For God's sake!!!!

Yes......one of the strengths of this Forum is its ability to question...........but another major strength of this Forum is the knowledge that is freely given by some very knowledgeable members. To them I will question and query BUT I will also give a sincere vote of thanks as I have learnt much from each of you.

To look at things critically is VERY different to looking at them cynically.

Steve is a big boy and can look after himself.........however, let me personally say I have learnt a lot from him and think that the level of some of the interrogation he is now receiving goes beyond a reasonable limit. Not just for Steve, but for anyone that has proved themselves through many, many contribution posts.

Yes.......lets FINALLY move on.........
 
Agreed, I love Steve's posts and more importantly I love his idea's! I love ideas! Ideas like "Rental Reality", using annunities to help with servicablity (Cashbond), share trading systems...all bloody great ideas! better still they have been quantified, systematized and tested in the real world. Maybe the questions could be "are they the best ideas?" "are there better ways?"

Have I used his ideas,? in a way I have, rental reality formula has helped my develop my ideas on IP selection. As for cashbonds and share trading systems...well no I havent, and maybe I never will..but I enjoy considering them and understanding them...and that is exactly why I come to this forum!
 
I think this comes down to something a little broader.

A person who contributes to the forum does contribute their own time and knowledge. For some, they may get some recompense in the form of business or customers. For others, the recompense is only in the thanks for contributions.

But I don't think that form of the recompense is important.

People put their own ideas into the forum, and in doing so, can leave those ideas open for any sort of response..

Sometimes those ideas are responded to constructively, and can help the poster (and other people in the forum) to help form their own ideas.

Bill's postings on options have helped me to consider my own ideas (especially on options and reading material of such), and have helped me to move forward as a result.

But sometimes responses can be regarded as not constructive, and that's not a desirable thing.

If people don't agree with a post, it can be done in a way which does not give the impression of putting down the person who posted, or the ideas posted.
 
Strongly agree with GeoffW. Things do get hot from time to time but it is an open forum after all. We are mostly civilized adults though and I honestly believe are capable of behaving in appropriate way. The above several posts were a bit childish.


I enjoyed Steve’s seminar and like his contribution to the forum. I like Bill’s contributions however too. It’ll be pity to loose any of you guys.
 
I've resisted entering the fray on this one for a while, but I just have 6 points to make:

1. Steve adds great value to this forum.

2. His method is just one of many that you can choose from.

3. The cashbond is just a tool. It solves a particular problem. It is not a magic investing pill to save you from poor investment decisions or market cycles.

4. Steve's method appears to have worked well over the last few years. No doubt that has been boosted along by the boom market we've had, but Steve is the first to admit that.

5. Robust debate on the forum is to be encouraged, but let's play the ball and not the man.

6. I think we can all let this one go now and form our own views about the worth of different strategies. But please let those views be informed ones.

that is all ;)
 
Hi all,

Shame this thread has got away from the original concept of whether one of these new developments, that are highly priced on small blocks of land are a better investment than older surrounding areas.
My view, that is shared by one or two others, is that there is an ESTABLISHED market in the older area, whereas the new development will need time for the secondary market to develop. Just because the developer is selling something for $550k, does NOT mean that this is the real price of what the market would value the property.
By the very nature of how developers market this type of property, a high percentage goes to property investors(just go to the Mirvac web site and read the property investment guide).
My opinion is that I choose not to invest here, because there maybe a higher percentage of investors, and I could get more LAND content, closer to existing infrastructure, at a lower price.

As a response to the "get over it" type of comments, I just wish to ask "What do I have to get over???"
I try to give REAL examples of what has happened/is happening and then cop a volley of personal abuse because I am " attacking a methodology". If I am sooo wrong I would prefer that information/examples, that could benefit others, was given to PROVE me wrong. I don't see any evidence of this and I am still after facts and figures.

Lets discuss the pros and cons of this type of new development, compared to established areas of the same suburb to see which is the best type of investment.

bye
 
Originally posted by Bill.L
. . . highly priced on small blocks of land

. . . a high percentage goes to property investors

. . . I could get more LAND content

I am still after facts and figures.

Lets discuss the pros and cons of this type of new development, compared to established areas of the same suburb to see which is the best type of investment.
Click to expand...

Hello Bill.L,

Okay so back to the original concept:

You mention highly priced:
What constitutes a "high price" . . . meaning on what basis do you establish price value as you offer the opinion that these particular homes are in fact highly priced?

You mention small blocks:
What constitutes a small / large block . . . is it the actual square meters of the site or is it the value per square meter that constitutes land content? (And once again on what basis is the reality of the value measured?)

You mention that a large proporton of these properties go to investors . . . whereas I am under the impression from the research that 80% of these particular home have been purchased by owners. (The developers keep a stringent control on the number of investors allowed to purchase on their estates . . . their stated policy is NOT to have too many investors.)

So in order to understand your opinion as expressed above, perhaps it might be useful if we can first understand the nature of the due diligence you have undertaken, so that we can get an understanding of what constitutes VALUE to you.

Now, once we have achieved the above, THEN we can do a numbers comparison between NEW and OLDER (established) homes in a particular area.

The way I might calculate the above is to compare Value, Yield, Cash flow, Tax Efficiency, and Maintanance amongst all the other factors.

Perhaps this way we might be able to achieve an Apples with Apples comparison that is useful for all . . . :) (Peace be with you)

Perhaps this discussion should be: Which is better . . . NEW or OLDER properties - the pros and cons.

Regards,

Steve
 
Hi all,

Steve, it just so happens that I have some figures from about 8 years ago that we can compare how a new development grew compared to the nearby surrounding area. I'll go through all the figures later on(hopefully tonight) as I don't have the time now to do it justice.
In the meantime perhaps you can give an example of the cap growth of one of these types of investments over 8 or so years compared to the nearby housing. As it is past history, it shouldn't compromise any of your current commercial confidentiality.

bye
 
Wow. A weekend certainly makes a difference to a thread.

I share Geoff's sentiments. Bill L has provided many objective comments concerning shares that, even though I have very little knowledge of the sharemarket, have offered an alternative or grounded opinion on certain techniques.

Steve has provided an abundance of information on the forums, and on his web-site. No, he doesn't have a book, but his methodology is certainly available for free, without even needing to attend the course. Steve is exceptionally free in the knowlege he gives out. Perhaps so much so that when I attended his course I felt like I'd already covered a good portion of his "methodology".

Unfortunately there will be those of us who raise a question to be argumentative, and there will be those of us who raise a question to learn. I am in the latter group. I have challenged Steve with a few questions of my own during my time on the forums, but [I would like to think] always on the understanding that I am trying to learn, and always with due respect to Steve, given that he has experience that I do not.

I don't need Steve to prove something to me. In fact, I don't need anyone on these forums to prove something to me. But these forums are incredibly useful for throwing up ideas. Because when I get an idea off the forum, I try and prove the idea for myself, if necessary. If I can't prove it, I ask why I can't prove it - what am I missing? Where are the holes in my understanding? Steve will know that I asked him several gnarly questions at his Melbourne course, but he had the answers, sometimes lateral answers that weren't necessarily obvious. That is the benefit of his experience, and that is what I value.

I don't necessarily agree with all of Steve's ideas (or Bill's) but that doesn't make them wrong. In reading the different viewpoints I know I am opening my mind to alternative ways of thinking about investment.

Guys, I think you both know each other's viewpoints by now - time to agree to disagree.
 
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