Analysts tip ongoing property decline

Link to an ABC Newsradio article on property market

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200506/s1385867.htm

Financial analyst ABN AMRO predicts house prices in Australia will fall in real terms for several years.

In their latest report on house prices, analysts at the investment and banking service provider say the only good thing to come out of the downturn is that interest rates may stay steady for some time to come.

"The fundamentals for house prices suggest that prices are way out of line with where they should be, based on incomes and rent," said Keiran Davies, one of the authors of the report.

"History shows that when you've had the sort of run-up in house prices like we've seen in the past few years, you often see a long period where prices, at best, do nothing.

"I think it will take a long time [to catch up], I think housing markets always move more slowly than other asset markets.

"I think it'll be a very slow, drawn-out process as people gradually wind back their expectations of quick capital gains and as wages slowly catch up to where prices are.

"I think [five to 10 years] is right. If you look at the history of prices though, that sort of period is not unusual.

"Keep in mind, what you often see with the housing market is brief bursts of growth like we've had recently and then long periods where prices do nothing."

The report goes further, saying the decline is likely to be larger than the decline seen during the recession of the early 1990s, and is close to the post-World War II slump.

It says the only good news is that interest rates should stay put for some time.

Different take

But if you listen to other economists, even that good news may be short-lived.

BIS Shrapnel has been analysing the housing market and has a different take on its future.

Angi Zigamonaus is the author of the BIS Shrapnel report on housing prices.

"From our point of view, we're still expecting prices to hold up over the next 12 months while interest rates remain low in a long-term sense," he said.

"But throughout the course of the next 12 to 18 months we are expecting interest rates to begin to rise.

"This will be driven by increased business investment which will in turn underpin the next leg of economic growth and will also underpin declining unemployment rates.

"With that, we expect to see stronger wages growth, stronger inflationary pressures which ultimately will lead to higher interest rates.

"And that will have a more negative effect on residential property prices than what we've seen already."

Price drops

Prices in Sydney and Melbourne fell 3.4 and 1.7 per cent respectively over the year to March, with some analysts predicting a further fall of up to 20 per cent in these markets.

Still, other capitals such as Perth and Adelaide bucked the national trend, with both cities showing growth over 8 per cent during the year.

Despite the ABN Amro report, Ian Wells, president of the Real Estate Institute of Australia, is optimistic.

"I would have to say that there are varying reports, via columnists across Australia at any point in time, that make predictions," he said.

"Some are right and some are wrong. You would particularly need to have a glass ball to be 100 per cent accurate.

"However, I think that economy is still looking fairly strong, interest rate movements appear to be stable, employment is still high.

"So consequently, what we're seeing is probably the normal, cyclical nature of property and other forms of investment, if you like


See Change
 
hmmmm - interesting thoughts and just goes to show how hard the future is to predict.

i like the idea of interest rates staying the same and house prices steady for a few years. that will allow us to buy a new rental (hopefully) every 6 months, negatively gear against our currently positively geared properties so we have a neutral cashflow, let the rents catch up and then be sitting very pretty in time for the next boom.

goody goody :D
 
lizzie said:
hmmmm - interesting thoughts and just goes to show how hard the future is to predict.

i like the idea of interest rates staying the same and house prices steady for a few years. that will allow us to buy a new rental (hopefully) every 6 months, negatively gear against our currently positively geared properties so we have a neutral cashflow, let the rents catch up and then be sitting very pretty in time for the next boom.

goody goody :D


Hi Lizzie,

Why would you want to erode your profits by investing in NG property at the moment, knowing it will stay flat for few years?
Isn't it better to invest the profit into MF, stocks, business.... etc, and wait for the property market to start moving before buying more IPs?

Thx
V
 
Sorry Lizzie but I'm with Panic. Why would you invest when the TOTAL returns, including predicted cap gain, are less than 10%?

I'm no slum lord, but nor am I a benefactor to the middle class.

Thommo
 
because i have several properties very positively geared - and would prefer (because of our income) to be in a tax neutral position. as you would have seen in my post - i'm not going to be buying them all this week, but instead one every six months or so ... and who is to say the market is going to stay flat for several years? ... so if it stays low for a couple of years then i'm happy to dabble. rents are also increasing due to investors pulling out of nsw, so it won't be long before new purchases i keep as purely rentals are heading for neutral territory as well.

but what i actually do is purchase close-to-knockdowns in a particular, very trendy area. rent out while plans are going thru council then knockdown and rebuild. profit per house is looking at around $100k per property in the current market ... so if i make a wee loss on the rent for the short term then i think it's an okay tradeoff - and the current market means i have better bargining power to buy a good deal.
 
lizzie said:
... and who is to say the market is going to stay flat for several years? ...

I thought that was what you were accepting as "probable" when you said: "i like the idea of interest rates staying the same and house prices steady for a few years."

lizzie said:
but what i actually do is purchase close-to-knockdowns in a particular, very trendy area. rent out while plans are going thru council then knockdown and rebuild. profit per house is looking at around $100k per property in the current market ...

Ah!! So you were talking development, not buy'n'hold after all.

Let's be clear about tax. It is better to pay your 30%-40% tax on income and have what's left as legitimate tax-paid income than paying out 125c in the $ so you don't need to pay any tax.

Thommo
 
the brain is not functioning right for a debate tonight. trying to toilet train the 2yr old, while co-ordinating the latest rebuild project and get the latest purchase ready for renting by next week. :eek:

maybe i just like collecting houses when i can afford them ... don't like sitting on money as i then have a habit of spending it on things i don't really need (hmmm - is that how hubby got his $60k yacht?) and the stock market doesn't seem to be the best place to park it at the moment. i don't really understand (and am not interested in) shares so it would be dangerous for me to do so ... although do have a managed fund that $$ go into each month.

i like being able to bargin a cheap price in relation to what had been happening over the last five years, and be able to pick and choose at my leisure. we have more than enough income to cover negative gearing on what we buy and i would like to have a bigger string of properties by the time the next cycle rotates around - whether it starts in 12 months (as some are bandying) or 3 years.

okay okay - collecting houses is my hobby as well as my business and i am addicted. some women love buying shoes - i looooove buying houses, and either bringing them back to life or creating something beautiful new. :eek:

lizzie
 
Where then is your disclaimer:

Beware!! Collecting houses regardless of economic value could be a wealth hazard!!

Up to this point I was in "banter" mode but I believe your last post was irresponsible. I may be simplistic but "goody goody :D" is up-ramping your favourite investment and to do so without disclaimer is irresponsible, bordering illegal. Both Panic and I await a clear dissertation on how negative gearing property which is unlikely to show cap gains for a few years can promote prosperity.

Yours, respectfolly, Thommo. (typo noted!)
 
Thommo,

You've got rant mode on. Switch it off, there's a nice lad. I saw a T-shirt recently that said "Stupidity isn't a crime. So you're free to go." :)

That aside, I agree. Neg gearing what one believes to be probably a negative capital growth house is ...um... madness. Take a loss to make a loss? Not this little black duck!

Lizzie, why not at least wait until you think the market is recovering, and in the meantime throw all that money at your managed fund or even a bank account?
 
Or spend some time working out how to invest in shares . There are always shares going up , even if it's only the the firms who specialise in Bankruptcies...

After a down period earlier in the year ( and some more learning on my behalf ) my portfolio is up about 5 % in the last few weeks.

See Change
 
Huh?
Whats the problem Thommo?
What exactly did Lizzie say that borders on irresponsible or illegal ??

It made perfect sense what she detailed.
Buy at close to land value
Refurbish and / or rebuild and the increase in equity is $100k.

The cashflow (rent return) is negative during the planning process and maybe after the rebuild is completed due to a low yield, but the capital gain is instant ! ie...$100k increase in the value of the property.
This would have to be better than waiting for CG in an uncertain market, where you are waiting for the market and time, to save you.

The only confusion I found was when Lizzie mentioned a 'profit' fo $100k which suggested that she sold and took her profit ( CG )
If she keeps the properties, then maybe she means an increase in equity and not profit.

Makes perfect sense to me....and not even that far fetched.
Effectively she is making her 'profit' when she buys.

kp
 
kph said:
Huh?
Whats the problem Thommo?
What exactly did Lizzie say that borders on irresponsible or illegal ??

It made perfect sense what she detailed.
Buy at close to land value
Refurbish and / or rebuild and the increase in equity is $100k.

The cashflow (rent return) is negative during the planning process and maybe after the rebuild is completed due to a low yield, but the capital gain is instant ! ie...$100k increase in the value of the property.
This would have to be better than waiting for CG in an uncertain market, where you are waiting for the market and time, to save you.

The only confusion I found was when Lizzie mentioned a 'profit' fo $100k which suggested that she sold and took her profit ( CG )
If she keeps the properties, then maybe she means an increase in equity and not profit.

Makes perfect sense to me....and not even that far fetched.
Effectively she is making her 'profit' when she buys.

kp
The problem is that Seech's original post was not about ABN Ambro's appraisal about development but rather about their estimate of what will happen to Mr & Mrs J Smith's house (investment?) To suggest to the hundreds of readers here (we have a lot of lurkers) that property is still the way to go "Because I think I can make a $ in developing" is akin to a sophisticated stock investor saying "Come join me in the (falling) stock market" without saying that he will play by different rules (ie He will go "short")

OK Quiggles, after this I will switch "rant" off. I have raised the point a number of times that opinions without clear disclaimers could put both the poster and SomerSoft at legal risk. I felt there was a clear "ramping" tone to Lizzie's post, particularly when the topic was not development ergo the questioning of motives.

Thommo
 
Point taken Thommo.
I see where you are coming from in context to the original post, but how does anything that has been said border on being illegal?
Is it just me or ????? cos I don't get it.

And what sort of disclaimer would be required ( serious question cos I don't understand ) seriously...

Anyway, all it indicates to me is that you can't generalise about any market.
There is always a niche where a 'profit' or capital gain can be had.

And saying house prices in 'Australia' will fall in real terms is pretty general and broad based as a comment.
Almost irresponsible in itself ...imo.

kp
 
thanks kp ... it's nice to know someone is on my side and you explained part of my process must better than i can in my current mode.

i gather not everyone understands my methodolgy but it works for us and is not irresponsible or stupid! just different - and being different, going against the trends, can work very well. that was not a dig at anyone - i never intend to offend anyone but do suffer cronic foot-in-mouth disease.

to explain ... in the past we have bought two houses, revamped both, sold one and kept the other. with the profit from the sell we would buy two more and repeat. with this process we now have 9 positively geared properties plus an unencumbered home in an exclusive area.

we have rethought with the market changing and done indepth research. we have found a local area where (with some sharp bargining) nearly-knockdowns can be bought for basically land value, while new houses in the same area are stronlgy selling for premium prices. therefore we have recently changed tack and will sell the rebuilds and keep the revamps - the first rebuild is currently under construction. i then plans to follow a similar track and spend the cg on deposits for two more properties - one for rebuild, one for keeps - then i improve one and rebuild one. keep one and sell one, make more profit and spend that profit on more deposits and hence multiply outwards in the number of properties. we will do this for as long as the market in the area, that we now know intimately, will sustain it.

because the profits are always reinvested (and not drawn from the company) tax is kept to a minimum ... until we decide to stop and the final year of cg will catch up with us.

i also freely admit that i have never had any interest or desire in shares and i know it would be stupid of me (knowing my personality) to try and learn something that i had no inkling of passion for. i have owned shares in the past and done very well - but knowing my personality type i find it very difficult to learn about something if my internal motivation (driven by true interest) is not engaged. money in the bank also doesn't work for me ... i start looking at nice cars, big tv's, home improvements ...

please try to understand that everyone works different and a great saying i have been told in relation to breaking rules in writing (yes, i am also a fictional novel writer as well who has no passion for grammar!) ...

... if it works, then it works.

and it works. keep the non-personal-attacking comments coming. i am interest in other views and still learning. please respect my views as well.

lizzie
 
Lizzie,

your strategy makes perfect sense to me - you are focused on acquiring assets that will appreciate in real terms over time, leveraging off your capacity for taxation benefits, taking into account your spending habits, and using your experience, knowledge and skills to invest in an area you are comfortable with.

Well done!

Tim
 
p.s. when was outlining what i do considered as ramping? i am not a real estate agent nor have a vested financial interest in what anyone else does in any financial market.

surely we are allowed opinions and views on this forum without it being considered a hard sell. i thought that was what this forum was about - viewing different ways of doing things - then it is up to the reader to take all the information away and do their own research. in my circle we call that brainstorming and information sharing.

i totally agree that what works for one does not work for all. however, point taken that there are some early learners out there who may take what i say as gospel and will try and keep the passion for what i do to a minimum in my posts. ;)
 
Lizzie

Your plan makes sense for you and Thommo's point is valid too.

Maybe the ramping comment is a cross over from share forums where the term is used with considerable frequency. Lots of people try to beat up the price of a companies in chat rooms and forums , and the accusation of ramping is a very common one, where as here it mainly is used in realtion to people trying to flog off hard to sell developments , and as we all know Thommo is a Shareman underneath any pretentions he has of being interested in property :D

See Change
 
HI All

Lizzie comments make sense and are exactly what I am looking at doing ATM.

AS I SEE IT

BACKGROUND
The last two years the market was crazy here to develop. Big money and big risk. Every mug having a go and making $$ because of the market not their strategy.

NOW
The market it now making sense and may drop even more as the mad investment $$ simply goes elsewhere. Why lose $$$ in and IP when you can get no risk 5% at ING for those looking for income.

BUT WHAT IF YOU HAVE INCOME
You have a low cost of living any how and a high level of income??? Shares or Property or Cash.

MYSLEF
I have a very positively geared business and each year at this time I am searching for ways to avoid giving my hard earned $ to the ATO.

OPTIONS
If I keep it in the company I pay 30c but at lest it is franked for the future.
I pay to family Trust it must be paid out at applicable personal rate, again what to do with the cash. I don’t need that Ferrari just yet.

BEST OPTION?
It would seem the best strategy is to buy a few development sites with homes that allow NG to reduce tax. Site with potential for two villas or more in the longer term. Build em myself and not strata so keep OH low.

COST
They may be NG now but I can cover that so if say it costs me net $5k loss for two years to develop to turn in to neutral geared which eventually will go positive in the future when I may not be working so much why not? The debt can be secured with fixed rates. Over time the rent will only go up and being new maintenance is low to nil.

WHY NOT SHARES
If I buy shares I have to be confident of the CG in the long run and that is not possible as shares are subject to the market. And if they do have CG and it is the top I have sell when I don’t want to with only more tax to pay.

I could buy shares for the income but again it is in that year. I don’t need any more income now. I need it in 5 years time or more when I semi retire.

SUMMARY
Lizzie makes sense. Passive Income is the goal and property is the best set and forget for this. Shares are great but need watching even blue chips like HIH , Ansett and AMP. Etc.

My two cents, Peter 147
 
Shares offer most of the investing benefits of property. Half capital gains tax if held for 12 months, Tax savings from negative gearing etc. One big benefit of property is the no CGT on PPOR. That's a big one.

When I buy a share in a company, it is with the intention of holding for 12 months. Sometimes I don't. If the fundamentals of the company change, I may sell at a loss to protect capital, but if the price rises, I may add to the initial investment. I usually never average down.

The main reason I'm so into shares at the moment, is the historical values compared to property. Property price to earnings is at historically very high levels, and the sharemarket is not. Just a month ago after the big share sell off, the sharemarket was at 14 year low price to earnings, but has largely recovered. It was at better values than it had been for 14 years. This doesn't mean the sharemarket will go up, but it has to help, surely.

This is not always the case. In early 2000, property PE's were very low, and the sharemarkets was very high. The sharemarket busted, and property boomed. It was obvious. Everything is obvious in hindsight.

See ya's.
 
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