Is 10 years of your life worth $2M?

If someone told you that you could retire today, but it would cost you $2M.... would you do it?
What about if they told you don’t have to pay the $2M today, you’ve got the rest of your life to pay it off bit by bit?
And what if it was even better than that – it’s not real money that you have to pay it off with – it’s money you would have made if you hadn’t retired.

This is a scenario that many residential IP investors face. When (if ever) is the right time to sell the c/f poor, growth IPs and invest in low risk, higher yielding assets?

I believe that sacrificing $2M of future growth is a small price to pay for 10 years extra retirement. A strategy that uses solely IPs is a poor way of retiring early – they are generally seen as a ‘slow & steady’ route to a self-sufficient retirement.

The reason residential IP is a slow way of retiring is that –
  • yields are generally lower or similar to interest rates
  • rents rise at roughly the same rate as inflation – currently slowly
  • running costs for IP are significant – approx 2% for land tax, rates, insurance, management/strata fees, vacancy etc
The advantage of property is that it can be highly leveraged, so after growth has occurred (as it has in the last cycle) there’s lots of equity available. But rents rise only slowly, the phrase ‘asset rich, cashflow poor’ springs to mind. So residential IP is a good vehicle for generating equity, but a poor one for generating c/f.

As an example –
Assume $200K equity is initially available, with an 80% LVR this allows the purchase of $1M of IPs.
Assume these IPs grow 100% over 4 yrs, giving $2M worth of IP with $1M of equity.
But the rent only grows by inflation – say 20% over the 4 yrs.
If the yield was 5% on the original purchase price – it’s now 6% on the original purchase price. So you have 6% income, but still have outgoings of 8.5% (6.5% interest+2% costs).

So how do you retire early when you’re asset rich & cashflow poor. One answer is to convert growth assets to income producing assets. It means paying some CGT (usually at a 50% discounted rate, spread over a few yrs), but it means retiring early & having the option to continue investing in IP at the start of the next cycle.

So the $1M equity in the example is reduced to $750K after sales expenses & CGT. Investing it all in LPTs yielding 8% will give an income of around $60K usually indexed linked. The sacrifice is the $2M growth you’ll miss out on over the next 10-year cycle.

The alternative is to hold some/all the high growth IPs, until the c/f of the remaining ones is sufficient to cover all costs and provide a retirement income. This is likely to take significantly more than 10 years.




NB I am not an advisor & this is not advice
 
I'd do a hybrid of what you are doing. I would build up equity until I could still have some IPs and have enough income to live off shares etc. During lean years in the share market you could top off you income by selling an IP. In a share bull market you could put excess funds into your IPs.

MIT
 
mit said:
I'd do a hybrid of what you are doing. I would build up equity until I could still have some IPs and have enough income to live off shares etc. During lean years in the share market you could top off you income by selling an IP. In a share bull market you could put excess funds into your IPs.

MIT

Similar strategy here - although the lean years in the share market might coincide with lean years in the property market too (which needs yet another contingency plan...)

I find that in a share bull market, I get greedy and put the excess back into the share market.....

Cheers,

The Y-man
 
keithj said:
So how do you retire early when you’re asset rich & cashflow poor. One answer is to convert growth assets to income producing assets. It means paying some CGT (usually at a 50% discounted rate, spread over a few yrs), but it means retiring early & having the option to continue investing in IP at the start of the next cycle.

Hi Keith, I sort of agree with this tactic, but would leverage the equity to purchase assets that create growth and cashflow (is there such a thing do you think ??) rather than sell down and incur CGT and costs.

I also agree that 2M is cheap for 10 years of your life.
 
The Y-man said:
Similar strategy here - although the lean years in the share market might coincide with lean years in the property market too (which needs yet another contingency plan...)
I was thinking more about stored equity. So if the share market pulled back you could sell and retrieve the equity.


I find that in a share bull market, I get greedy and put the excess back into the share market.....

I have reached a portfolio where my income (on average, I have tested over 15 years) should be what I need to live on + 20%. What I am doing now is keeping the portfolio size constant and drawing off a monthly amount to pay down IP debt. Once I reach the equivalent of 12 months income, I'll let the portfolio start growing again. The problem is the little voice that tells me that if I grow the portfolio now, I'll reach the target sooner.

So when I leave work this 12 month buffer will be used when I don't make enough from shares, and the IP start getting sold when the buffer get's used up.

MIT
 
As alot of property experts have outlined , primarily Robert Kiyosaki , if you want to have accelrated returns on your money at a good rate , ie above interest and most mutuals funds , then you must learn to invest in atleast 2 asset classes. As someone mentiond earlier oviously asset classes and their growth run in cycles , in lean property years like these it takes an exceptional investor and expirience to make decent profits . With this in mind having knowledge and expirience in both the share market and commodity market will enable you to think "out side the box" .

In my opinion this is what seperates amatuer investors and smarter more expirience investors. Having knowledge of atleast 3 asset classes will enable you to divert you money into the best asset class for the apropriate time . For more information in this look into the 20/10/5 year theory , mention in one of Kiyosakis books . It relates to how the different asest classes run off each other.

Although often strong advocates of property investing like the majority of the people on this forum , i think it really pays to be able to divert your money into another asset class when need to .
 
I'd say it depends on your age and tax circumstances. If you're still young (or at least have no plans to quit your job) you're better off keeping the IPs for capital growth. While you're still working your tax bill for selling will be high. I remember one of the stories in the Somersoft story-by-story book about a couple who sold up and put everything in term deposits. Great lifestyle for a while, but inflation ate into their income. We're all going to live longer than we expect to.

e.g. if I was making the decision now, I'd keep working. I'd be giving up much more than $2m, because of my age and because of the amount of money I could potentially make in the next 10 years (both working and investing).

My own plan is to keep a 'core' of residential IPs happily ticking away at neutral cashflow. I then use the equity to fund other, more cashflow-type investments, such as small developments (haven't started yet). I also have shares that pay good dividends which I'll buy more of, and am looking into corporate bonds (some like the PBL and WOW ones pay 7+%). Later on I imagine I'd get into commercial property as well.

As Young-Gun said, you need other asset classes, but I would advocate a more gradual switch, and not to just sell up all your IPs because you want the cashflow.

In answer to your post, Keith, I don't think it's a one-off decision. If you have multiple properties, you can sell one, analyse the impact, then decide whether it was a good decision. Which is why I buy a few cheap properties instead of one expensive one.
Alex
 
G'day keithj.

Listed Property trusts aren't growth assets. Well, in theory they aren't supposed to be, but most have done remarkably well. I got out an old 'Personal Investor' and checked out some historic LPT prices.

............................. In Feb 2000,....Today.

General Property trust,...$2.18..........$4.05

Stockland,....................$3.35..........$6.49

Also, The biggest LPT is Westfield. It would be too hard to work out the returns for it with the merger that happened a few years ago between the trust, America, and Westfield into Westfield group, but the growth would also be good.

Anyone would have to agree that these are great returns. The whole while paying 6 to 8% yields.

This is a property forum, so most people are into gearing into property. I think that many people have geared into LPT's over the years and made heaps as well.

See ya's.
 
If shares don't suit you, I'd diversy within the "property" asset class, and look at commercial properties, which can provide much higher yields than residential, but still offer potential for growth, but require greater expertise and have a different set of risks to manage.

GSJ
 
Hi alex,
alexlee said:
I'd say it depends on your age and tax circumstances.
My example assumes worst case - ie 24% tax on all IP sales. I also said 'sell the IPs.....over a few yrs' - you could reduce the CGT to a lower tax bracket by selling one per tax year.

alexlee said:
If you're still young (or at least have no plans to quit your job) you're better off keeping the IPs for capital growth. While you're still working your tax bill for selling will be high.
I'd disagee - you have most to benefit while you're still young. Just because you have enough passive income to retire doesn't mean you not allowed to invest again - see end of this post.
alexlee said:
I remember one of the stories in the Somersoft story-by-story book about a couple who sold up and put everything in term deposits. Great lifestyle for a while, but inflation ate into their income. We're all going to live longer than we expect to.
I'd advocate something that has inflation linked income - such as LPTs, the asset will go up at inflation rate, so will income (over the long term).

alexlee said:
As Young-Gun said, you need other asset classes, but I would advocate a more gradual switch, and not to just sell up all your IPs because you want the cashflow.
I agree - this is a v. simple scenario. There are dozens of variations.

alexlee said:
In answer to your post, Keith, I don't think it's a one-off decision. If you have multiple properties, you can sell one, analyse the impact, then decide whether it was a good decision.
It'd be better to use a spreadsheet, rather than analysing the strategy part way through implementing it.

So assuming you do sell all IPs to retire early, what then.....

....at the start of the next property cycle....
  • You have $750K+ of unencumbered income producing LPTs. Get a margin loan for $200K, use it as a deposit on $1M res IP, borrow the other 80% just like you did last time. At the end of the next cycle you'll have assets of $2M IP + $1M LPTs + $1M of debt and strong c/f.
  • Borrow against your (unencumbered?) PPOR & leverage into res IP again.
The 'non-retiring' alternative, is to borrow $600K (80% of $2M less the $1M you borrowed 10 yrs ago) against your existing IP, and a further $2.4M to leverage into another $3M of IP (assuming the bank thinks you can service these extra loans). And one cycle (10 yrs later), it's possible you'll have enough c/f to retire on. Assuming it is then you'll have assets of $10M + $4M of debt & adequate c/f. Is now the time to retire ?

KJ
 
topcropper said:
Listed Property trusts aren't growth assets. Well, in theory they aren't supposed to be, but most have done remarkably well. I got out an old 'Personal Investor' and checked out some historic LPT prices.

............................. In Feb 2000,....Today.

General Property trust,...$2.18..........$4.05

Stockland,....................$3.35..........$6.49

Also, The biggest LPT is Westfield. It would be too hard to work out the returns for it with the merger that happened a few years ago between the trust, America, and Westfield into Westfield group, but the growth would also be good.

Anyone would have to agree that these are great returns. The whole while paying 6 to 8% yields.

This is a property forum, so most people are into gearing into property. I think that many people have geared into LPT's over the years and made heaps as well.
tc,

I think the ASX put out a report recently that showed res IP, LPTs & shares ALL returned 14% on average over the last 10 years. So a yield of 8% and growth of 6% is pretty good.

My understanding is that most commercial rents are linked to CPI, and the value of the LPT is directly linked to the income it returns. So LPTs grow at the same rate as CPI on average. There are variations depending on bond returns & vacancies.

If I were an advisor I'd advocate gearing into LPTs. Most margin lenders allow gearing in to Westfield at 75%, and the other big LPTs at 70%.

KJ
 
Hi, Keith,
It depends on how much you want in retirement. For example, say you can sell up today and get $50k per year income that grows with inflation. Is $50k enough? Would it be better to hold onto the IPs and wait until your 'sell down' income reaches the equivalent of $100k? Or $500k? Is it better to 'retire' on a lower income for an extra 10 years or work for an extra 10 years but subsequently 'retire' on a much higher income? That's a personal decision. In my case, I'm greedy. I want lots of income, and I'm willing to work a few more years to get there.

I understand your point about how you would probably enjoy 'retirement' more when you're young, but there's a balance to be drawn somewhere, and that balance is a personal one. I'm 28 and I can probably sell everything and make $40k 'sell down' income per year but that's not enough for me.

As for selling up now, then wait for the start of the next property cycle.... I don't believe I can tip the bottom.
Alex
 
Great Post....

Hmmm...we have thought about it...what's worth more? spending quality time with our kids whilst they're growing up or giving them a more financially secured future as when we are old/dead, all the houses will go to them anyway.


The ideal scenario would be selling off all our assets and put the money into a high yield interest account (not enough to retire but that extra cash would be very handy) then purchase more IP's to offset the capital gains tax on the interest/income.

You will then have passive income and Ip's.

However, is it worth it if the IP's I buy now is much more expensive? Withe the IP's I sold off, eventhough I made a profit, I bought them cheap and the loan was reasonable to service. With new IP's I'd have to use part of my passive income to service the loan anyway.

Although, it would work well if you earned a high income and paid a lot of tax.

Did I make any sense? :)

At the end of the day, all the properties we wanted to sell, we did...didn't really generate the amount of income to make a difference if invested in a high interest account. The properties with the highest capital growth, we just can't sell it....there's no way we could buy it back for that sort of price ever again...if we did though in the future, I'd be kicking myself.

I don't really mind slaving away in a boring job...I think I'd be even more bored in retirement. It's good enough just to know that if we ever did encounter financial difficulties we have something to fall back on.
 
alexlee said:
It depends on how much you want in retirement. For example, say you can sell up today and get $50k per year income that grows with inflation. Is $50k enough?
Hi Alex,

Is $50Kpa enough to change your career to full/part time investor. And you get $200K equity as a deposit on future IP investments.

The point of the post was to show that res IP is a GREAT vehicle for creating equity with low risk. But not such a great vehicle for retiring early with comfortable income.

alexlee said:
Would it be better to hold onto the IPs and wait until your 'sell down' income reaches the equivalent of $100k? Or $500k? Is it better to 'retire' on a lower income for an extra 10 years or work for an extra 10 years but subsequently 'retire' on a much higher income? That's a personal decision. In my case, I'm greedy. I want lots of income, and I'm willing to work a few more years to get there.
That's the right question to ask & there's nothig wrong with a bit of greed:).

alexlee said:
I understand your point about how you would probably enjoy 'retirement' more when you're young, but there's a balance to be drawn somewhere, and that balance is a personal one. I'm 28 and I can probably sell everything and make $40k 'sell down' income per year but that's not enough for me.
It's also about balancing income over the years - you get more income earlier and less income later in life (than a solely res IP strategy) Also the total income you get is less & the final asset base will be less. OTOH time is the most valuable thing we have & you can't take it all with you.

KJ
 
alexlee said:
I'd say it depends on your.... tax circumstances.


Finding that to be one of that major factors for consideration at the moment in converting our CG type elements to income elements.

It's a bit of a vicious circle... the more income elements we get, the more tax liability there is; the more tax liabilities there is, the more CG elements we get to defer/offset tax; the more tax effective CG type elements we get, the more income elements we need ....etc etc

Cheers,

The Y-man
 
The point of the post was to show that res IP is a GREAT vehicle for creating equity with low risk. But not such a great vehicle for retiring early with comfortable income.

KJ, good thread, I agree with your thoughts here. See also the thread on "Les and Brenda Portfolio 2006" in the general forum as there is a similar discussion here on this thread.

GSJ
 
Retire?

Is this an easy decision or what? I would take the time!

I define 'retirement' as looking forward to Monday mornings, or a similar sentiment.
 
keithj said:
So the $1M equity in the example is reduced to $750K after sales expenses & CGT. Investing it all in LPTs yielding 8% will give an income of around $60K usually indexed linked. The sacrifice is the $2M growth you’ll miss out on over the next 10-year cycle.

Hi Keithj... I always enjoy your posts and agree pretty much with everything.

As another option would be to pay off the best performing IP's completelly being debt free. Say you retain 1M worth of IP's fully paid off. They would be returning 6% which is 60K pa minis holding expenses. This way you would still own an asset which MAY apreciate in value down the road eliminating purchase/sell expenses, still able to use the equity to fund future investments come next cycle and have income.

I'm not suggesting that this is the only right way to do it. I'm throuwing it only as an option

Thx
V
 
Just looking at some LPT comparisons here, chart is a bit harder to read due to the growth of a couple of LPT's (or are they REIT's now?) within

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And the gyrations of the market

* Note the below are not LPT's, just a couple of stocks I'd chanced upon when looking at some 52 week statistics

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