Jen's-can't change a lightbulb-reno attempt

Hee, hee! :D

Oh, this will be fun! Yes, we've never done this before - oh dear :eek: . But, you've got to start somewhere! This is my thread on our recent purchase - a 2-bed unit in Ormond, Melbourne that needs the works. Purchase price $235k. We know we can get the entire reno fully organised and completed for $30-35k without us lifting a finger or doing much at all besides signing checks (I'm sure in months time I will be begging for this!).

But what's the fun in that? So, our goal is to try to halve the costs and do what we can ourselves and organise what we can't (this will also be a challenge!).

And yes, my reno skills are pathetic to say the least. But, I have a lovely fiance, Geoff, who thinks he might be "handy". And I LOVE to find bargains, I can paint, and I'm a slight perfectionist. Plus I enjoy giving organising things and then running away for coffees when things aren't fun anymore :p (I find the people who are working don't actually mind this skill of mine ;) )

We won't be selling when it's done. We have 3 goals, the 1st is to increase the value of the property by doubling what we put into the reno, the 2nd is to make it suitable to more "desireable" tenants (and hence increase rentals); the 3rd is that it will cheaper than if we would have just sat back and paid someone else to organise and do the whole thing without us!

In current condition, the property has a rental value of $210/wk.

First on the agenda, pictures: (This could be the start of many failures).....

The kitchen:
 

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We'll my kitchen pics showed up, I feel quite clever :D !

Lounge:

(I have a 3rd pic - but got this message: Your file of 143.8 KB bytes exceeds the forum's limit of 100.0 KB for this filetype.)
 

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And the Bedrooms:
 

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Now, the one we're looking for the most ideas on is the bathroom - what a stupid and ridiculous way it's set up! I will try to draw some sort of floor plan to visualise it - but basically:

Picture 1: This is the hallway/entrance to the bathroom. Entrance is towards the left. Bathtub/shower is on the right: - First notice the hallway entrance door handle - that's actually where the bathtub/shower is - may sound ok - but it's as skinny as it looks. I'll be taking measurements this weekend to help draw something up to show you guys for ideas.

Picture 2: So imagine, step into bathroom, turn immediately right - straight in front of you is laundry taps - pivot and look to the right of the laundry taps - bathtub/shower (surrounded by solid walls) - hence if washing maching was in place, nearly impossible to get into the bathtub!

Picture 3: Bathtub/shower
 

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More bathroom pics,

Straight ahead when you enter is the vanity - ahead to the right is the toilet (enclosed within bathroom).

It actually could be a decent sized bathroom - but silly waste of space and you can't even use it's (features?)!

We're VERY open and looking for suggestions on what to do with the bathroom (as well as all other rooms in the place of course - the bathroom is the most challenging I think though). Currently - the laundry taps block the bathtub/shower if you chose to put a washing maching there - the bathtub/shower are enlosed in a "seperate toilet" (for lack of better description?) type location.

I'd love to just knock out walls, but from basic inspections - they are quite solid and possibly stuctural (can get this determined though of course - the toilet may not/shouldn't be). I personally think the toilet belongs in the area the bathtub/shower is - but would have NO idea on what this would involve to change - do they even use the same pipes? Too difficult and costly I'm sure. If we leave the shower where it is - one option is making it a modern type walk-in shower (possibly screenless) - getting rid of bathtub (not my favorite option, but maybe most practical). - the bathtubs sticks out past the wall right now. My only thinking is there's a few schools/daycares nearby and I think without a bath you're ruling out any families with a small child (some probably think that's a good thing? :) ) And if it's not possible to get laundry in a smart spot in bathroom - then possibly a European type laundry in the kitchen?

Ideas, ideas, ideas!!! :D :D :D
 

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Begin with the end in mind...

Hi JenD,

So you got it for 235K and it would rent now at 210/wk...

'Begin with the end in mind' someone said, so...how much are fully renovated apartments, directly comparable to your one in its unrenovated state, selling for - and, also, how much do they rent for?How long do you anticipate the renovation to take, and therefore, what sort of holding costs are you anticipating (factoring in possible further rate rises)?

I'm sure the process will be fun and you will learn much from it, but will all the work result in a worthwhile dollar 'profit', or, in your case, a significant increase in the property's bank valuation and rental value?

My understanding is that in the current investing climate in Melbourne, buying and renovating to increase value is quite a difficult process. After you add holding costs + renovation costs (and to be more accurate, maybe even, purchase costs/stamp duty/LMI/loan costs, +/- any buyers agents fees already paid), you may only get a very slightly higher property/rental valuation - hence you need to question whether the whole process is worthwhile...???

I am more inclined to sit tight on unrenovated properties until the market starts to move up a bit more/faster. That way the rising market will help increase your profits and cover up any mistakes or cost-overruns. Unless, of course, you are very confident that at the end of the process you can make some money/equity.

Another way to look at it is - if the total cost of the job was 30k and you only ended up increasing the value of the property by 10k, then it may have been better to put that 30k into some of the deposit+costs of another investment property instead - 'opportunity cost'.

Doing it yourself can obviously help reduce costs and make this more profitable, but that is dependent on your expertise.

Alternatively just do smaller jobs that cost less, but could add to the 'rental value' of the property rather than necessarily 'increasing equity', given we are in a period of rising rents.

Just my thoughts - don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, I'm sure you'll get a lot of ideas from the forum - but basically, look at the numbers and see if it will work first.

GSJ
 
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As per GSJ, don't get seduced by the projext and end up over capatilsing.

In the mean time what have you got planned for the unit if you go ahead? That bathroom and kitchen are the strangests setups out. I love the way you end up standing at the curved and of the bath to take a shower!!!! and the stove is next to the sink, crazy!!!!!

Look forward to your plans

Cheers
 
Hi Jen, the others have good points, time blowouts and overambitious renovations are what kills these projects.

What I'd do:
1. replace all power points and light switches as well as dated light fittings.
2. paint the whole lot.
3. Buy new taps where needed, being sure to install new washers and ream the tap seats.
4.new blinds
5. new carpet
6. new kitchen but try to keep as much as possible eg tiles, taps on wall etc. Any changes to make it more trendy will cost $$$ and not increase value much.
7. leave the bathroom with the same layout, replace showerscreen, towel rails, toilet roll holders etc

If you do this sort of reno it will set you back $15K, if you start trying to make the place something its not it will set you back $50K and take three times as long.

Cheers Pulse
 
Hi Jen, my friend and I are currently shopping for a "dump" we can reno. So I'm really interested in your budget, designs, and how the "reno-skilled-challenged" can learn and upskill. (We are quite reno-skill-challened too!) So hoping to learn heaps from you as you progress.

Luv the pics...really helps when one has the visual.

I also took note of the posts regarding the figures stacking up, and this is a very important point...and I also consider what value adding now, will do for the CG and CF in the medium and longer terms, as you are doing no doubt.

I've previously paid for some renos, and wanting to do my own now. I've found wee carboard cutouts helpful in redesigning rooms and layouts. Cut to scale, the fixtures like baths, showers, cabinets, etc, and easily be moved around without have to redraw or rub out.

There was a previous thread here by RJ called "Operation Cochrane"...I think, he did major renos as well....what an adventure! I learned lots from his posts and pics.

Looking forward to your reno adventure stories...and I wish you every success with it.
 
Hi Jen,
Firstly let me congratulate you for taking action. For me, this is what its all about. Regardless of outcome. Sure you may not make a fortune, sure it will be testing and at times probably very frustrating - but at the end of the day, you HAD A GO. You got in there and gave it a go. You swore, you laughed and perhaps maybe even learnt something along the way.

Forget about all the cynical comments, the negativity, the what ifs, the buts, the maybes ....all of the crap. Go with your own decisions and do what YOU think is right. Obviously ensure you take due care and make informed decisions but remember to have fun and enjoy yourself and LEARN from the experience.

I sincerely hope you do well from this and look forward to following your project.

Best of luck.

RJ
 
Forget about all the cynical comments, the negativity, the what ifs, the buts, the maybes ....all of the crap. Go with your own decisions and do what YOU think is right. Obviously ensure you take due care and make informed decisions

Well, there's 2 conflicting bits of advice if ever I've seen any..

Bit of Advice 1 (paraphrased). Ignore everyone who doesnt have the same rose coloured glasses as you have on.

Bit of advice 2. Make informed decisions.

In fact its probably the most conflicted, tortured, lame advice I've ever seen on this forum.

Jen, seek out any and all advice that you can, pick over it, weigh it up, consider it, discard that which you feel is not based on experience or fact or that which springs from an eternal negativity. Take to heart the few nuggets of wisdom that are left.

The worst thing you could do is to charge ahead on a course that may have been arbitrarily selected.. be as sure of the outcome as you can.

Good luck!
 
Thanks all for the words of encouragement - and caution!!

We initially were thinking of holding onto it without doing much at all, and starting a reno later on in the years - but in its current state, the quality of tenant it will be attracting isn't good. Especially because of the kitchen.

So, the kitchen is our first and main goal. I'm quite aware that the novelty factor of a reno will wear off once we get into it ;) but the kitchen is something that we absolutely need to do something about. In its current state/layout it's hideous :) So if we can get this done, and decide renos are the worst thing in world to consider attempting, I will still be happy putting tenants in there and will consider our efforts an accomplishment.

I'm really interested in the flatpax kitchen. I'm hoping it can improve the look and layout of the kitchen, while reducing costs. Can anyone out there who's used a flatpax in their renos offer some advice? :)

Were you happy with the overall look, finish, and quality in the flatpax?
What would you do/not do if you were installing a flatpax again?
Difficulty level?
Time taken to install?
And the main one - Is the level of effort worth the reduced costs? ;)

We live in Melbourne - is Bunnings the main place to source a flatpax? Best price? Any other stores out there that we can have a look at them at?

Thanks for the advice! Keep the constructive criticism coming as well, I know we'll learn just as much from it!

Cheers,
Jen
 
Hi Jen, we reno-ed a house recently. Quick list of costs for us doing it ourselves:

Kitchen
$3000
Totally pulled out old one and started with blank canvas, mind you no appliances included. This was for whole kitchen from Ikea, new sink, splashback tiles, rangehood, door handles, overhead cupboards etc. The $3000 also included a stupid pull-out pantry that chewed up $675. Would not bother with that again. We went with a basic white laminate door and the
black stone look benchtops.

Bathroom
$2500
Did tiling ourselves, bought a vanity and bath from Bunnings, out of the $2500 is $500 for a showerscreen we had installed.

We did floor tiling ourselves and had a carpet remnants shop recommended for carpet. To put the slimline venetial blinds throughout house was $1800. Kitchen took us about 2 weeks to install due to the fact that we moved plumbing, tiled splashbacks and were working. My sister and her husband put installed their Ikea kitchen in 3 days and their kitchen is rather large. Comes with easy to understand instructions. Hardest thing we did was tiling. Spacing was easy due to the space pegs, laying it evenly was a little harder.
We also tiled over existing floortiles in bathroom.

Hope this helps. Wish you the best of luck, it is a great feeling to stand there looking at the outcome of all your hard work.
 
Hi Forrest, like your flatpax kitchen. Photos look great, what a difference a new kitchen can make. Might have a go of one of them next time round.
 
We initially were thinking of holding onto it without doing much at all, and starting a reno later on in the years - but in its current state, the quality of tenant it will be attracting isn't good. Especially because of the kitchen.

We own a unit in Heidelberg, Melbourne. Its of similar condition, near to station and always rents easily. When you say "qulaity of tenant", are you refering to their income or their reliability in paying/treatment of the property/ etc. We havent had problems to date, and seem to be servicing out clientele with what they want. Its not beutiful but its clean, in working order, close to shops/transport, and they can afford the rent.

I'd do as others have suggested, and look into what you will achieve in rental return and CG for your $$$.
 
I'm with the 'clean it up and try not to spend too much, then sit back and collect the rent' group.

JenD, I've sent you a pm about our Flatpax kitchen (no probs with it, it does the job)

Lindy
 
Hi Jen D,

Just curious, did you do any numbers on your project?

I'm keeping an eye on similar apartments in the inner east, but a bit closer to the CBD (6-7 km), and finding that the difference between unrenovated and renovated old apartments, is not very much at all. Perhaps as the market moves a bit more, we will see the better presented renovated ones go up in value more?

GSJ
 
Hi Jen D,

Just curious, did you do any numbers on your project?

I'm keeping an eye on similar apartments in the inner east, but a bit closer to the CBD (6-7 km), and finding that the difference between unrenovated and renovated old apartments, is not very much at all. Perhaps as the market moves a bit more, we will see the better presented renovated ones go up in value more?

GSJ

Hi GSJ,

We're still putting all the numbers together and getting lots of quotes to determine what we'll be putting into the place - but what we know is that a unit in the same block - unrenovated but in slightly better condition sold for $255k a few months ago. Similar renovated properties in the area have sold between $290-$310k - some of these have small courtyards, which ours lacks. We know that we can get a group to organise, plan and complete the total renovation for about $30-$35k. We would be thrilled if we could halve that. We've got about 45 days until settlement to get all the quotes and numbers worked out - and if we can't get remotely close to halving it, then we'll do what's necessary to get it liveable and save the reno for a future date.

One of the main issues we're facing is all of the walls are brick - every single one! This makes it much more difficult to move things - plumbing, electrical, etc - and makes it's horrible bathroom layout a definite challenge!

But, we're up for it! :D

Cheers,
Jen
 
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