Meet the (HDT) Knockers!

I have recently talked to my solicitor and accountant about setting up a HDT to begin our IP portfolio. My accountant wanted to know what benefit I thought I would get from operating in a trust aside from some asset protection. He seemed to think that if the bank want your property they will find some way to get it anyhow. My solicitor seemed to think that while they were all the rage years ago for property investing, they were maybe now not quite so popular due to problems when you want to sell up the assets and close down the trust and that they were expensive and time consuming to run properly! I don't think either of them think we need one (or maybe they don't think that I will get big enough to warrant one???) I know that with so many experience investors using trusts that there must be good reason for it. I have Dale GG's books and can see that there may be benefits for us but I don't understand enough about tax planning to argue my point. I went to a recent propertywomen.com seminar in Melb and all but one of the speakers operated in trusts. Are my regional experts behind the times or are there reasons specific to our situation that would negate any benefit? Would love some help from those who can.

Julie Fisher
Daryl Fisher Homes.
 
Julie,

I agree with your advisers remove all the hype and there is nothing to gain and they have not been tested enough in the courts to be sure they will achieve what we are told. The following is my two bobs worth.
So Why Choose A Hybrid Discretionary Trust?
A Hybrid Discretionary Trust is a combination of a Unit Trust and a Discretionary Trust. Initially, the trust is run as a unit trust. This allows the high income earner to borrow money to purchase the units in the trust effectively allowing the units to be negatively geared because the income stream from the trust is, less than the interest on the loan. The unit holder has a fixed interest in the trust so they are entitled to claim a tax deduction for interest on money borrowed to invest in the trust. On the other hand in a discretionary trust there is no fixed entitlement to income, as a beneficiary, so interest on a loan to invest in the trust is only deductible if it is on lent to the discretionary trust at the same or higher interest rate. These conditions on the loan mean it can never be negatively geared.
Getting back to the unit trust situation. The trust buys a rental property with the money subscribed for the units. This rental property is normally the security for the loan. Be careful here as the rental property will need to be held in the name of the trust and the loan will need to be in the name of the unit holder who will be the high income earner in the family.
Eventually the negative gearing advantage will be lost either because rents have increased or the property is sold for a capital gain. After all, that is why you got into the investment in the first place so to plan for this not to happen is to plan to fail. At this point in time the Hybrid trust redeems the units by paying back either the original amount invested or the unit’s share of the current market price of the assets in the trust. Which, depends on the terms of the trust deed. Though there is a chance that CGT would deem the pay back price to be the market value of the units. Some argue that if the units only entitle the holder to an income stream, not the capital growth component, the value of the units is less than the unit’s portion of the value of the assets held in the trust. Whether the units are redeemed at their original cost, the market value of the future cash flows or at an amount equal to the units share of the trust’s assets, each out come has its own self defeating problems.
If the units in the unit trust have to be redeemed for the market value of their share of the assets in the trust, either as required by the deed or by CGT law. The high income earner will receive taxable income from the trust. If the property investment has gone according to plan this income will exceed the benefit of the negative gearing in previous years. There is the advantage of the capital gain receiving the CGT discount but this would have been available had the property been held in the high income earners name anyway, so at this point in time no advantage has been gained by having the unit trust. After the unit is redeemed there maybe some benefit in the future if the property is not sold ie the reason for redeeming the units was because the property had become positively geared due to rent increases. Now the discretionary members of the trust (low income earners) will receive this income but it has come at the cost of the high income earner having to realise a capital gain that would have not been necessary if he or she had simply held the property in his or her own name. Or even if they did this until it was positively geared then paid the same capital gains tax to transfer it to a low income spouse. The only advantage the trust gives them in these circumstances is that they don’t have to pay the stamp duty on this transfer. There are stamp duty concessions for transfers between spouses. It is also possible that the stamp duty on the transfer, necessary if the property is not held in a HDT, may be less than the cost of establishing and running the trust all those years anyway.
If on the other hand the units can be redeemed for the amount that was originally invested, the investor never made a profit on the investment and with the advantage of hind sight the ATO can say the investor never intended to do so. In TR 95/33 particularly paragraphs 30 to 35 and 47 to 51 the ATO discusses how arrangements that have no chance of making a profit cannot be negatively geared. Paragraph 34 discusses how in Fletchers case the AAT found that the taxpayers never intended to stay in the arrangement for till it became profitable. Further with all the PR about HDTs giving a tax advantage the ATO could use Part IVA to claim the whole arrangement void as a scheme to avoid tax.
On the final hand as the units are only an entitlement to an income stream, even if the market value substitution rule comes into play their value would be considerably less than the value of the underlying assets in the trust. This strategy puts the investment on very shaky grounds in the early years when it was negatively geared. Again TR 95/33 states that if an investment is made with no real intention of making a profit at some time in the future it cannot be negatively geared. Caught this way is the worse case scenario because the negative gearing advantage to the high income earner is lost and you still have incurred all the costs of setting up and running a HDT.
Now the final blow to HDTs. Their objective is to stream negative income streams to the high income earner and later positive income streams to the low income earner. For this to be necessary in a family arrangement it normally means the high income earner is a wage earner. If the family was in business they have probably utilised other methods of income streaming. In a wage earner situation our salary sacrifice kit is a much better and cheaper solution than a HDT. Not only has it been proven in the courts, you can easily apply for an ATO ruling giving you confidence about the arrangement. The salary sacrifice kit is intended for rental properties owned by a couple where one spouse is on a high income and the other on a low income. The high income earner salary sacrifices all the cash flow rental property expenses such as interest, rates, insurance, agents fees and repairs. The high income earner’s employer does not pay FBT on these reimbursements because of the other wise deductible rule. All that is required is that the high income earner be jointly liable for the expense with their spouse. So the spouse could own 99% of the property yet the high income earner would get 100% of the deduction. The couple then only return in their tax return their individual share of the rental income of the property, the depreciation expenses and anything not reimbursed by the employer. This will probably make the property positively geared in both tax returns but the high income earners taxable wages will now be considerably less. As the reimbursement is an exempt fringe benefit it is not included in the reportable benefits box on the high income earners PAYG summary and as the property is no longer running at a loss it does not have to be added back for Centrelink purposes. Also your employer would be entitled to claim a GST input credit for any GST on the expenses the employer reimburses, something you could not do if it is a domestic rental property, so your costs are less.
The kit explains and helps you enter into this arrangement correctly and with an ATO ruling. Yet it only costs you $150 probably less than the cost of the initial interview regarding a HDT.
If you are looking at a positively geared property there is no advantage in a HDT. Instead go for a normal every day discretionary trust if you need flexibility of distributions in the future. If you don’t need the flexibility in the future just buy the property in the low income earner’s name.
If the property won’t become positively geared or be sold until the high income earner retires simply hold it in the high income earners name and save a fortune in set up costs of a HDT.
Note in both the last two examples the rental property kit can still an improved tax situation when a HDT wouldn’t but the property would have to be held in the name of two spouses who are in different tax brackets.

Julia
www.bantacs.com.au
 
Hi there mate,
Sounds to me like you need a new accountant and solicitor! (not that i am dissagreeing with them - you just need them to be more open to ideas and willing to discuss) give DaleGG a call im sure he will be more than happy to help you. I have had solicitors and accountants that are totally closed off to new ideas and cant think past the next 5 minutes - best thing to do is fire them and find some that are better.

All good professionals should let you see them free of charge for a short while to 'interview' them (but you dont tell them that!). I have done this recently for a new accountant - i spoke with a few on my shortlist and decided on whom i believed to be the best, and they will now get all my business.

edit; just noticed the new post above mine - glad i didnt try to go into specifics of trusts, looks like theres a lot there! ^

Good luck with it!
Cheers;)

Jacob
 
If the ATO can deem that the value of the units to be the market value of the assets, presumably creditors can as well. Which means the value of the units increase and therefore invalidates the asset protection (i.e. creditors can still lay claim to the increasing value of the asset in the trust). That's my biggest issue with using a HDT.
Alex
 
geez Julia,

Lots of great information there; but its given me sore eye's reading it without a few breaks in the paragraphs :cool: ;)
 
Thankyou Julia, Jacob and Alex.
We work for ourselves in a partnership arrangement and distribute our earning equally from our building business. What about the asset protection factor of trusts? Considering the fact we are builders and it is a fairly litigous occupation I thought that trusts would protect our private interests from our business interests. Is this true or are properties in trust still able to be sought after if someone tried to sue us. (I'm not planning for that to happen by the way!)

I can see that Alex has maybe answered that question now that I have gone back and read the posts again; if that is the case there would be no reason to choose a trust for asset protection or otherwise? Especially considering that we can distribute our income to ourselves equally. And considering some years we can earn 60k and some years we can earn 100k then there is maybe some reasons in Julia's reply why we wouldn't operate in a trust.

Julie Fisher
Daryl Fisher Homes
 
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I still disagree with Alexlee's position.

A basic DT offers asset protection from creditors, but guarantees, charges on trust assets and special circumstances can invalidate that protection.

I don't know why those other people in that seminar didn't use trusts - I can't see why anyone would not use trusts in their investment strategies because of the asset protection factor in conjunction with income splitting between other parties. I would not invest in my own name, nor would I use a company and I am too young to use super to any great degree - trusts are all that's left.

As for HDTs, the tax office have not released any definitive private binding rulings to my satisfaction, let alone any court rulings on the subject so while people may obtain HDTs, they need to know that some tax professionals state that they have these inherent properties but the tax office have not yet released any official position on them. The tax office have released some positive HDT rulings so you can't say that they don't work, all you can say is that there is no certainty.
 
Julie,

A discretionary trust will give you asset protection because you have no fixed entitlement to the assets of the trust but for this exact same reason you cannot get the losses out of a discrationary trust into your personal tax returns. So the losses from a negatively geared property are locked in the trust to be offset against any other trust income. If your building business was in a trust you could seek advice on whether you can distribute profits from it into the trust that owns the property. This would give you the best of both worlds.
To my knowledge the only ATO rulings re HDTs are about the inital unit trust stage verifying that you can claim a tax deduction for the interest on the money used to buy the units. I have asked on this forum if anyone has a ruling or been through an audit where the HDT has redeemed the units and received no replies.
There are 3 different types of trust. Unit trust with a fixed entitlement and no problem claiming a deduction for interest on money borrowed to purchase the units but no flexability when income positive. Discretionary trust where losses are locked in but lots of flexability. Hybrid Discretionary trust proport to achieve both and that is what I wrote about earlier. I believe they may not stand up but I do not have a problem with a Unit or discretionary trust standing up in court.
 
Hybrid Discretionary trust proport to achieve both and that is what I wrote about earlier. I believe they may not stand up but I do not have a problem with a Unit or discretionary trust standing up in court.

These are almost the exact words of my accountant also. Sounds all great and fantastic, but he has no confidence that the HDT will stand up to a rigourous challenge by the ATO in the High Court if they decide to get snarly.

His advice on this HDT issue was to be a 'fast follower' rather than the leader.

His other piece of advice was to continue purchasing cashflow positive properties, such that the HDT wasn't necessary. If you can purchase great capital growth type assets that also spin off great mobs of free cashflow, a simple DT is good 'nough.
 
Thanks for your reply

Thanks again Julia and Dazzling
I am planning to do some buy,renovate and sells in the very short term to increase our capital for some good buy and holds, so I will use this time to look into DT's more and have a good talk to my accountant. I really do appreciate the replies...thanks guys...this is an area that I really flounder in at the moment, but hopefully all this research and advice will pay off and I won't start up with a investing structure that works against us!

Cheers Julie
Daryl Fisher Homes:D
 
I still disagree with Alexlee's position.

A basic DT offers asset protection from creditors, but guarantees, charges on trust assets and special circumstances can invalidate that protection.

I don't know why those other people in that seminar didn't use trusts - I can't see why anyone would not use trusts in their investment strategies because of the asset protection factor in conjunction with income splitting between other parties. I would not invest in my own name, nor would I use a company and I am too young to use super to any great degree - trusts are all that's left.

This is only based on my reading and not really a professional opinion, but I can see the asset protection and income streaming benefits of a normal DT. As trust assets grow ALL trust assets are protected by the trust structure and any lawsuits against the trustees or beneficiaries will not affect trust assets.

My issue with HDTs are those income units. If the ATO can deem the value of those units to be the market value of the assets within the trust (and therefore the unit value increases) then the asset protection aspect is lost. i.e. creditors making claims against the unit holder can, presumably, also claim that the units increase in value and therefore can claim more. I realise that trust deeds may specify that HDTs can redeem units at cost and distribute income according to certain formulae, but it's not certain that these will stand up in court.

For me, I'm going to start with an ordinary family DT, transfer shares and so on into it, and maybe have the DT issue mortgages against assets held in my name for asset protection.
Alex
 
My issue with HDTs are those income units. If the ATO can deem the value of those units to be the market value of the assets within the trust (and therefore the unit value increases) then the asset protection aspect is lost. i.e. creditors making claims against the unit holder can,
Surely you realise that the ATO's view of a trust has absolutely nothing to do with whether a creditor could seize the assets. What happens with a creditor's claim in court dealing with clawing back transactions has nothing to do with the tax code.

As for the rest, it has already been discussed and I don't want to go back over previously discussed material.

If you have a positively geared DT that exceeds the potential loss you expect from a negatively geared property, just buy the IP in another DT and direct the profits from the positively geared DT into that to offset the loss. Then you don't need a HDT.
 
'If you don't like risk, don't play at the edges'

Thanks Julia for your post...
...Now the discretionary members of the trust (low income earners) will receive this income but it has come at the cost of the high income earner having to realise a capital gain that would have not been necessary if he or she had simply held the property in his or her own name. Or even if they did this until it was positively geared then paid the same capital gains tax to transfer it to a low income spouse...julia
But, with the HDT you could argue that the CGT could be much less depending on your method of calculating the units redemption market value. Although, this does have its own problems as you have already mentioned.

In a worst case scenario for the HDT, if you said the market value was the full value of the property, you would still retain the benefit of having the asset in what would now be a DT, so perhaps greater flexibility with respect to income splitting, if you have several beneficiaries.

If you already have a HDT, my advice would be: don't redeem units or sell the property just yet, given the current uncertainty.

If anyone has done this, and has been successfully audited after doing this, I'm sure we would all like to hear about it...

If not, then use a DT if you can afford to have losses retained in the trust.

Otherwise, do what Julia suggests with salary sacrificing arrangements.

If this is difficult due to problems with your employers, then buy in you own name.

If you are willing to take some risk and uncertainty, and 'play at the edges', then sure - go for the HDT.

Also, be very cautious when considering the PIT.

And, yes, this has been discussed in depth before. Read the following threads - we even had one accountant, CoastyMike, leave the forum after some heated discussions!

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27342&highlight=hybrid+trust
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29426&highlight=hybrid+trust
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27624

Also, if anyone knows Chris Batten's current stance on HDT's I would love to hear it.

GSJ
 
Hi,

I would also add that I think that the increased HDT costs are offset by increased tax deductions available using this structure, and that (aside from the risks/uncertainty) the main hassle associated with the HDT is that less banks do finance with HDT's involved.

GSJ
 
Hi Julie,

Find a new Accountant!!

Accountants are natourisly conservative. Having worked myself in the industry for 15 years I know from experience that many Accountants are conditioned to be conservative. Each tax agent is required to meet certain lodgement guidelines set down by the ATO which puts firms and staff under enormous pressure to reach these targets. Their business evolves around meeting these deadlines and GST compliance has only strained this further.

As a result many Accountants are too busy to take the time to effectively help their clients with tax planning and structuring matters, instead only doing annual tax returns. Their livelihood also means keeping their noses clean with the tax office, so most Accountants tend to tackle issues from a negative point of view of “why it can’t be done” rather than looking at alternatives. I’m not suggesting for a moment that you should avoid tax but you should be taking every legal step to minimise the tax you pay. So I'd be looking for an Accountant that's experienced themselves in property.

Sadly I can't offer you a referal in Melbourne, but maybe someone else of the forum can help you.
 
Each tax agent is required to meet certain lodgement guidelines set down by the ATO which puts firms and staff under enormous pressure to reach these targets. Their business evolves around meeting these deadlines and GST compliance has only strained this further.
Actually, I think they are conservative because they can get sued, and they are paid to advise clients of the risks.
 
The fact remains, though, that there is no clear ruling from the ATO regarding valuation of the units at redemption. While ATO deemed values (if, for example, the ATO deemed the value of the units to be the same value as the property itself) have no direct bearing on creditor claims, that would be one factor.

My issue with using HDT is about redemption. If I can redeem the units at cost or slightly above cost, great. If I have to redeem at market value, then that might also mean I lose the asset protection over the appreciation of the property inside the trust.

Further, if I have to redeem the units at market (or the ATO deems redemption at market) I ALSO lose the CG streaming benefit. i.e. I would pay all the CGT personally accumulated up to the point of redemption.

i.e. if the ATO deems redemption to be at market value at the time of redemption then BOTH asset protection and CG streaming ability are lost.

Amanda, while I agree that many accountants are conservative, the taxpayer also has to determine whether the advice is reasonable based on current tax law. Currently the law is silent on the redemption issue, to the extend of my knowledge. In the event of an ATO challenge, while the taxpayer might be able to sue the accountant for bad advice, the ATO will go after the taxpayer.
Alex
 
As a result many Accountants are too busy to take the time to effectively help their clients with tax planning and structuring matters, instead only doing annual tax returns. Their livelihood also means keeping their noses clean with the tax office, so most Accountants tend to tackle issues from a negative point of view of “why it can’t be done” rather than looking at alternatives.
Amanda,that depends on who you employ the accountant we used
for over18 years was also a property,shares,artwork,antiques expert and
imho as sharp as a chiansaw he is now retired and sold the 19
rental properties he owned in Ipswich over the past 4 years and now lives in
Tasmania we now use his daughter as our accountant the good ones are
out there and i think you find some of the smartest accountants in AUSTRALIA inside
this site who everyday share their knowledge for free, think about it..
good luck willair..
 
Hi,

Just a suggestion Alexlee,

I am not sure what the cost of setting up a DT with trustee company is compared to a HDT with trustee company, but if they are similar in price, then it may be prudent to setup a HDT, but use it as if you would use a DT, ie, without the issue of 'special income units', and then if and when there is more certainty from the ATO about its use, then issue SIU's to negative gear/redeem units etc...? To 'hedge your bets' so to speak.

GSJ
 
A very good suggestion, GSJ. Without any units issued the HDT functions the same as an ordinary discretionary trust. I'm thinking set up one trust for the ungeared stuff (shares, bonds, etc) and a second trust for IPs.
Alex
 
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