Short term boom...medium term gloom...

So I signed the contract for my first IP 1 month ago, and save any slip ups at settlement, its all gone pretty smoothly.

Yay me!

And thanks to all the people who have answered my questions and contributed to the forum in general - the knowledge base has been better than any of the books I've read :D

Its not my first imvolvement with property (my wife owns an IP and we also have a PPOR) but its the first time I've approached buying with an investor mindset. Location, capital growth, land content, yield, offer price in the face of strong competition (and a rapidly moiving market) were given careful consideration.
I was really happy when the vendors signed on the dotted line.

Less happy when interest rates went up a week later. Still, I exepected it.

Had a bit of a frown when the subprime crisis broke the news the following week.

The reasons why Melbourne is currently in an upswing hadn't fundamentally changed, however, and the market remains strong. High net migration, under supply of housing, strong economy, low unemployment, very low vacancy rates. I strongly believe these will be the force that will cary Melbourne (and likely the east coast) through the next housing upswing. I also believe that long term property will continue to do well.

BUT

...but in the medium term I am seeing alot of things aligning to make the bust that will follow a rather nasty one. Let me paint the picture

1) Every boom has a element of over zealousness in its final days. Over supply in some market segments, borrowing too much, etc, etc. The inevitable correction follows. This is expected.

2) There is already a high level or mortgage stress. After the next (current) boom this will increase and servicability will be even lower.

3) Some of the easy credit we have enjoyed to date is unwinding (already discussed in other threads). It will take several months for the effect of this to filter through. There will be a larger premium on top of official interest rates.

4) The last year of the baby boom generation was in 1961. Not just Australia but in much of the western world. The highest spending age is 47yo on average. That makes 2008 the last big spending year in much of the western world before the level of consumption starts decreasing. Regardless of whether spending is debt or savings funded, at some age people just stop needing new stuff. Governments may try and stimulate demand by lowering interest rates, but with official rates so low already, this may be quite limited. ---> Recession.

All these things line up in about 2009. It cant be good for prices.

Now I'm no high-browed economist and I'm sure that some people will find any number of flaws in my arguement. I wont even try and estimate how much property will fall (if at all) - but I think it will (fall) some / remain stagnant longer than average. My gut feeling is that if you don't get in on the ground floor for this upswing, buying late could be very dangerous. I'll also be reducing debt and improving servicability from now on. Won't buy another until the clouds clear.

Opinions?

~Dis
 
1) Every boom has a element of over zealousness in its final days. Over supply in some market segments, borrowing too much, etc, etc. The inevitable correction follows. This is expected.

Dis,

This was applicable to the RE boom which finished in 2003/4. It now applies to the share market which has seen a doubling since 2003. Typically you would expect a cash cycle (recession) to follow IF there is going to be one and if not another RE cycle.

MEL may be seeing the beginnings of the latter.

My 2c only but I would be doing 1 of 3 things at present depending on what I thought was coming:
1. Investing heavily in the share market to ride its "overshoot" but watching very carefully for the inevitable correction and pulling out before hand - even if it meant not getting all the gains out of it that I could.
2. Reducing bad debt and battening down the hatches for the coming recession
3. Gearing up into RE at the maximum LVR I could while fixing rates for 10 years if possible

On the subject of locking in fixed rates I would caution doing so now for a 5 year period. If the recession happens, pundits are predicting 2012 or so - this would be the exact time that you come out of fixed rates into the HIGH rate environment - so wait or do it 10 years IMHO.

I must go - got to pull some splinters out from fence sitting :)

Cheers,
Aimy
 
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Typically you would expect a cash cycle (recession) to follow IF there is going to be one and if not another RE cycle

I'm expecting the share market to chug along based on strong P/E ratios (future earnings). But when the baby boomers stop buying, earnings will drop and prices will follow.

So I guess I'm saying the property and share cycle will both tank at roughly the same time (give or take a few months). Big call on my part? :confused:
 
If your cashflow is ok and you intend to hold for the long term, does it matter? Unless you can pick the peaks and troughs, the person who buys consistently and manages to hold over the long term will do better than the person who tips the market and (invariably) fails.
Alex
 
If your cashflow is ok and you intend to hold for the long term, does it matter? Unless you can pick the peaks and troughs, the person who buys consistently and manages to hold over the long term will do better than the person who tips the market and (invariably) fails.

I'd imagine that the person who is able to tip the market (at least more than 50% of the time) would do even better, no?

I'm not silly enough to think that I can tip the market start to boom on <month/year>. I'd say that an educated guess can help you buy 1 year or 2 before the boom (good negotiating room). Having ears to the ground can help you buy in the first 6 months of the boom (good potential for gains even if you have to pay market prices). Some appreciation of property and economic cycles can stop you buying right at he peak of a boom or into a bust.

Eg would you rather buy in Melbourne or Perth now? If you show a preference (not based on your own location), isnt that trying to tip the market?
 
4) The last year of the baby boom generation was in 1961. Not just Australia but in much of the western world. The highest spending age is 47yo on average. That makes 2008 the last big spending year in much of the western world before the level of consumption starts decreasing. Regardless of whether spending is debt or savings funded, at some age people just stop needing new stuff. Governments may try and stimulate demand by lowering interest rates, but with official rates so low already, this may be quite limited. ---> Recession.

All these things line up in about 2009. It cant be good for prices.

~Dis

I have looked at this question form the perspective of Income, Debt and Cashflow. At the moment cash is flowing into households as they borrow more money. It seems likely that the Debt to Income ratio will follow something like the Hubbert Curve. Peak Debt will occur sometime then followed by reduction in the Debt to Income ratio - resulting in cash flowing out of households.
 

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I think the baby boomer retiring effect is exaggerated. Sure it will have an effect but dont forget that migration levels can always be increased to offset it partially if not fully....

Consumers and the burgeoning middle class in the developing countries will be the main drivers of the economies in the developed countries...We are already seeing it in the resources demand and will see it in other areas as well. Just remember India and China alone account for 1/3rd of worlds population and there are other countries as well.
 
I think the baby boomer retiring effect is exaggerated. Sure it will have an effect but dont forget that migration levels can always be increased to offset it partially if not fully....

Consumers and the burgeoning middle class in the developing countries will be the main drivers of the economies in the developed countries...We are already seeing it in the resources demand and will see it in other areas as well. Just remember India and China alone account for 1/3rd of worlds population and there are other countries as well.

yep. saw too many auctions with last two bidder are asians in particular area of melbourne. the chinese stock market nearly doubled this year, and many chinese property buyers pay cash to settle. as there is no land right in china, culturely, the chinese love ownership.
 
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yep. saw too many auctions with last two bidder are asians in particular area of melbourne. the chinese stock market nearly doubled this year, and many chinese property buyers pay cash to settle. culturely, the chinese hate debts.

Culturally like the generations raised in the shadow of the Great Depressions.
 
yep. saw too many auctions with last two bidder are asians in particular area of melbourne. the chinese stock market nearly doubled this year, and many chinese property buyers pay cash to settle. as there is no land right in china, culturely, the chinese love ownership.

I've also witnessed this happening. There is a lot of cash flowing through the Chinese community at the moment, and it is being put into real estate in the inner areas. The Chinese and asian community in place particular value on education. They are likely to buy near Schools and Universities, and will pay large sums to be near these facilities.

Regards Jason.
 
I've also witnessed this happening. There is a lot of cash flowing through the Chinese community at the moment, and it is being put into real estate in the inner areas. The Chinese and asian community in place particular value on education. They are likely to buy near Schools and Universities, and will pay large sums to be near these facilities.

Regards Jason.

yeah. Balwyn High School zoned properties virtually had a minimum 50% incease in price within 1 year. So as Glen Waverley Secondary College zoned properties.
 
Australia seems to be different to the USA and other countries due to our large percentage of Owner Occupiers. They only sell to make a profit, due to moving location or jobs, or Banks selling due to not paying loan or death.

The OO group is the one that sets the price 70% of the time. I think this is why Aust in general has periods of price stagnation. Everyone needs to remember the micro and macro picture, even in a stagnation period some suburbs grow and some drop and some stay the same. In my opinion it is the OO's that are driving the car and Investors are just getting dragged along for the ride.

So until the average Joe is priced out of the market and we swing to a 70% investor ownership I don't think we will have the large across the board price drops that happen in the USA.

So buy more houses. They protect you from inflation, and it's nice to own a thing you can look at.

cheers
quoll
 
There is a lot of cash flowing through the Chinese community at the moment, and it is being put into real estate in the inner areas.

This got me thinking about a few of the other threads where people tell us that prices can not continue to rise because Australians wages will not rise fast enough. The money doesn't have to come from Oz. I think a lot of people forget just how global our economy is.

The 1 in a billion event happens twice a day in China. There are a lot of people who can afford expensive realestate.

cheers
quoll
 
This got me thinking about a few of the other threads where people tell us that prices can not continue to rise because Australians wages will not rise fast enough. The money doesn't have to come from Oz. I think a lot of people forget just how global our economy is.

The 1 in a billion event happens twice a day in China. There are a lot of people who can afford expensive realestate.

cheers
quoll

Hi quoll,

Yes, and I think that the cashed up overseas investors will continue to push up house prices in areas they like and need to be near. (As for example educational facilities). All the more reason to jump in now before prices become totally out of this world and totally unaffordable for the ordinary wage earner.

Regards Jason.
 
Though for a bit of perspective, this was often cited during the late 80s, early 90s about Japanese buyers.
Alex

Yes, I spose it is easy to get carried away with optimism in a rising market like Melbourne is currently in! Some perspective is good Alex!

Regards Jason.
 
I've been trading a bit of shares and atm I'm in the camp of RE cycle. Sharemarket may have reached the top of 5th Elliot wave (or not far to go), and this wave also seems to unfold in the real estate market (similar theory to one of the forumites said in this thread). This wave is typically accompanied by euphoria followed by a severe correction or a "crash". The ripple effect from inner to outer suburb will probably be a few times faster than usual. This is probably the best time to make profit, but also the time to watch out for. My theory is that as long as we're not exposed ourselves too much to leverage and we have sufficient cashflow to cover the interest, get in the market while it's hot!
 
also, I agree with jingo on the theory of good school zone. In fact, I based my PPOR purchase on that hypothesis. Unfortunately I couldn't afford any of the "in-zone" areas (Balwyn North, McKinnon, and Glen Waverley GWSC zone), so I bought the property close to Brentwood S/C, which has just recently received 5 million funding from the state government to build a science centre, and this part of GW is catching up with the golden area fast. Likewise, when I purchased my 1st IP in Frankston, Frankston High was always in my criteria.. they have a selective programme there (like Melb. High and McRob), and there is a potential for Asians to flock in and snap up properties there once Eastlink is complete and cashed-up East Melbournians travel to bayside area more often
 
It will be interesting to see what happens when the Baby Boomers really retire. I don't think it will be as bad we predict, simply because Gen Y seem to be big spender 'wannabes'. At the moment most Gen Y people aren't advanced enough in their careers to be earning their full potential, but as this demographic's incomes increase, so will their spending.

Just a thought. I'm in property for the long term, and fundamentally I think quality inner city property will always be in demand by those who can (and can't) afford it.
 
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