Bill Zheng's latest seminar

Hi

I went yesterday to a presentation in Brisbane. Bill Zheng has modelled the contributory components of price growth for housing and the effect of each component on the price over the last 25 years. I thought I'd share some of his thoughts.

His conclusions were that real wage growth and real rent growth have contributed negligibly to the prices over that time. Based on real rental and wage data alone house prices were 25-40% overvalued. He modelled the effect of removing/adding in negative gearing and negative gearing's contributory effect was approx 11% over that time. He showed that removing negative gearing in fact would have lead to much higher rents and or a greater contribution from government toward public housing or rental assistance. Investors needed a minimum 6% rental yield with a 30% NG concession to make the investment in property worthwhile over this time period.

His models showed that 43 % of the nominal price growth was due to inflation. This was the major contributor. The next major contributor to growth was the increased ability and willingness of Owner Occupiers to pay more for a property. According to Bill Zheng, in 1984 people paid 38% of an average single gross wage gross wage in interest for a median priced property. The current value is about 64% of an average wage in interest for a median priced property. The reason that price was so affected by OO purchases rather than investors and negative gearing effects was that they controlled 70% of the finance for property so their willingness to spend more of their money as a percentage of income had a far greater effect on prices than the investor components. It's contributory effect on prices was 24% over the last 25 years.

During the last twenty five years we have had one tipping point of affordability in 1989/1990. At this point OO interest was 84% of average single wage in Australia at the time. It also occurred in the UK and their tipping point at that time was 120% of average wage.

Bill said that in the outer areas of cities (mortgage belts) that OO had already exceeded their capacity to pay and that was why property was falling in these areas atm. He expected greater falls in these areas especially if interest rates rise or unemployment rises as most or all of their discretionary income was gone with rising interest rates and inflation.

He felt that the inner affluent areas had more capacity for growth due to the higher wages and more discretionary income left after mortgage payments. He said there was no significant difference between the sizes of mortgages for inner and outer areas and that the affluence effect should keep the inner areas growing for another 1-3 years dependent upon no major global financial meltdown occurring.

For the investors,

Bill advised that we look for properties that

1. Have 40-70% land content
2. Are within 100-150% of median price for area
3. Have had 7-10% capital gain over the last 15 years
4. Are high demand properties in established areas. Avoid town of less than 5000 people.
5. Look for properties that we can add value to.
6. Avoid mortgage sensitive areas
7. Avoid non-standard properties (exotic or unusual)
8. Avoid low yield properties.

I thought that was pretty standard stuff but worth repeating.

He also said that using debt to meet lifestyle costs (LOE) was dangerous atm due to funding costs and a possible (death) spiral with debt.
He expected price growth in inner affluent areas to continue in line with inflation but outer areas could expect the bulk of price fall as people default. He expected real price growth (after inflation) to be flat over the next six to ten years.

If you can't make one of his seminars then it will be available on DVD after the seminar series is finished.

Hope this is useful.

Cheers

Shane

PS also posted on another thread but thought it may be missed there.
 
I went yesterday to a presentation in Brisbane. Bill Zheng has modelled the contributory components of price growth for housing and the effect of each component on the price over the last 25 years.
.....
Thanks for the synopsis Shane. Components look about right to me. Did he mention disposable income increases (as opposed to average gross wages) ? That seems to me to be a big contributer to house price increases and affordability.

What was the IR when the 6% yield he mentioned made IP investing attractive ?

I thought that was pretty standard stuff but worth repeating.
Seems pretty standard stuff to me too..... the problem is 'We can't be sure what we don't know', so it's easy for seminar presenters to market the 'I know something you don't' line.

Cheers Keith
 
Outer suburbs feeling the pain...maybe not

Hey all,
I dont buy the broad "outer suburbs will be the ones that feel the pain" argument totally.

I can only refer to Melbourne as its the market i have interest in.

It may be true that some who have bought land in new estates in the outer subburbs and built the big new home may be stretching the budgets.

There are still affordable established homes in outer suburbs (some in the new estate areas), that havnt seen the big growth that inner suburbs have seen over the last couple years, and they are not as much out of whack with yields as some areas.

These areas offer decent value and decent yields and although they are in lower income areas, may have some decent prospect for growth as they are coming off a lower base and have not seen any sort of boom like the inner suburbs have seen.

Prices of vacant land in new outer subdivisions has continued to rise, which may help support/pull up the price of already established homes in the new suburb areas also.

These areas will have demand from OO and Investors as they can be afforded by more people.

theres my 2c :)

Cheers,
 
Thanks for the synopsis Shane. Components look about right to me. Did he mention disposable income increases (as opposed to average gross wages) ? That seems to me to be a big contributer to house price increases and affordability.
Cheers Keith

There was a very brief moment when he alluded to the fact that there was more disposable income and people chose to allocate more of their income to OO housing. A brief mention at the same time regarding reduced inflation due to decreased manufactured goods. I thought it interesting that he didn't mention the newly exported inflation occurring over the last few years.

What was the IR when the 6% yield he mentioned made IP investing attractive ?

This was the average over the twenty five year period as far as I can recall from my notes. The six percent was also required the NG to stay in place otherwise rents would have to rise dramatically to compensate for the effect. He basically said that he didn't think NG would be removed as it would probably cost more in rental assistance/public housing than allowing the private landlords to supply.

Cheers

Shane
 
Hey all,
I dont buy the broad "outer suburbs will be the ones that feel the pain" argument totally.

I can only refer to Melbourne as its the market i have interest in.

It may be true that some who have bought land in new estates in the outer subburbs and built the big new home may be stretching the budgets.

There are still affordable established homes in outer suburbs (some in the new estate areas), that havnt seen the big growth that inner suburbs have seen over the last couple years, and they are not as much out of whack with yields as some areas.

These areas offer decent value and decent yields and although they are in lower income areas, may have some decent prospect for growth as they are coming off a lower base and have not seen any sort of boom like the inner suburbs have seen.

Prices of vacant land in new outer subdivisions has continued to rise, which may help support/pull up the price of already established homes in the new suburb areas also.

These areas will have demand from OO and Investors as they can be afforded by more people.

theres my 2c :)

Cheers,

Hi ND

Just clarifying Bill's thoughts for you in case I didn't make myself clear in the first post. Bill said that the bulk of price increases over the last 25 years was due to people being willing to spend more of their income as a percentage (partly due to more disposable income if you read Keith's RBA report he posted a while ago) on OO property and inflation. Bill felt that the OO of outer mortgage belt areas were already at their maximum use of disposable income (so at the tipping point) from the business that they and their contacts have. So his thoughts were that there was simply less income left to bid up the outer prices any further at this point in time as opposed to more affluent areas that may still have more disposable income available for investment.

He didn't feel that rental or wages growth had anything to do with property price growth as its contribution was negligible of the 25 year period. His thoughts were that OO dominate the market and the amount of disposable income that they have to bid up prices is the major contributing factor in price movement after inflation.

Cheers

Shane
 
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Thanks for that Shane,

I am glad to hear that he is going to be putting it into DVD format as it will be the cheaper option for me :) I will just unfortunately miss out on making contacts/the human interaction. I think that teleconferencing is going to begin to play a larger and larger part in life. It was also interesting to listen to Steve Mcknight's update where he mentioned a premium developing for properties on public transport routes with higher fuel prices.

Anyway enough rambling :)

Do you know what the timeline on the DVDs will be and the likely cost? Thanks.
 
Thanks Shane, most informative. There's a couple points I didn't understand, as follows.

His models showed that 43 % of the nominal price growth was due to inflation. This was the major contributor.

Isn't this a bit like saying that prices go up because prices go up, ie a circular argument?

Looking at it in isolation, I can't see how this is valid for established homes since these are already built and there are no costs associated with them apart from council rates and maintenance.

How I think it must work is that the cost of building new homes is dependent on labour and materials, and this would generally rise in line with inflation. Given population growth/household formation this generates demand for new homes which get more expensive. Established homes, especially those deemed to be better than new homes (mostly due to 'area') are sought after and rise in value.

Hence I can't see how rises in established home prices are due to inflation. Rather they are due to demand, which is increased by household formation.

Because new and established homes are a reasonably subtitutable product (ie people can choose between the two to fill the same need) there must be some link as follows:

Inflation > Rise in building costs > New house price increases

Household formation > demand for homes (old and new)

Demand for homes + new house price increases = increased competition for existing homes = capital appreciation

The next major contributor to growth was the increased ability and willingness of Owner Occupiers to pay more for a property. According to Bill Zheng, in 1984 people paid 38% of an average single gross wage gross wage in interest for a median priced property. The current value is about 64% of an average wage in interest for a median priced property.

I'm puzzled by his use of 'average single gross wage' which to me is the wrong statistic to use.

Households buy houses, not single incomes.

So why didn't he use median household incomes instead?

This would also have compensated for the increase in female workforce participation rate and made his figures more reflective of what households can really afford.


Bill advised that we look for properties that

1. Have 40-70% land content

What's wrong with 70-100%, unless he wants a newish building to get depreciation?

2. Are within 100-150% of median price for area

I'd be interested in his reasoning behind this - compared to just saying 'below median'.

Saying 'below median' forces the investor to work harder to buy value, which would allow them to buy in a 'better' area given a particular budget.

3. Have had 7-10% capital gain over the last 15 years

Which places a lot of weight in using history to predict the future.

He also said that using debt to meet lifestyle costs (LOE) was dangerous atm due to funding costs and a possible (death) spiral with debt.

He expected price growth in inner affluent areas to continue in line with inflation but outer areas could expect the bulk of price fall as people default. He expected real price growth (after inflation) to be flat over the next six to ten years.

Bill seems to have become much more conservative compared to a couple of years ago. Before then he struck me as being a bit too gung-ho with growth and blase as to the risks of credit and negative cash-flows (even if they are covered up by 'clever' financing).
 
Hi Spidey

I can answer the one about single income because it was asked. He used that because it was a stable identifiable consistent number. A reference point.

For your other points I would suggest buying the DVD's and then having your dialogue with Bill himself as I certainly can't speak for him.

I agree that he has changed his tune and he admits that. Changing times requires changing your mind

Cheers

Shane
 
Bill seems to have become much more conservative compared to a couple of years ago. Before then he struck me as being a bit too gung-ho with growth and blase as to the risks of credit and negative cash-flows (even if they are covered up by 'clever' financing).

I was also there guys. He definitely has changed his advice to his clients. This comes directly from his own forecast of future events. He truly beleives that investors can no longer merely use highly leveraged mortgages to create wealth in the same way as the past 25yrs and has spent a lot of time analysing all the relevant stats.

I beleive that he is conveying his true beleifs on the matter. He didn't have a doom and gloom outlook though conveyed the importance of focusing on adding value and developing to create equity rather than merely buying houses and waiting for the value to increase. So the focus has shifted from sitting on your ar$e investing to producing equity by buying well and reno and/or development. This is a major shift as it means that the investor now needs to become productive. ie: needs to be more actively involved in property projects.

I guess he would no longer agree with M Yardney that one can build a multi million property portfolio in your spare time! (unless you trust Metropole) ;)
 
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Thanks for posting Shane. Much appreciated.

I also agree with most of what he says.

And personally I don't like household income as a measure, because it is highly variable. In tough times, more females participate in the workforce for longer hours. So a median property price of 6x median household income will be significantly different depending on the economic climate. The median wage is a more stable measure throughout a cycle.

I'd be interested in any opinion Bill expressed about further cracking of global or US credit conditions.
 
I'd be interested in any opinion Bill expressed about further cracking of global or US credit conditions.

Hi WW,

Bill mentioned that his associates in the US who are involved in billion dollar finance deals (and who Bill obviously highly respects) see a possible easing of the credit squeeze toward the end of this financial year.
 
Top post Shane, thanks for taking the time. I enjoyed Peter's counter points as well, very thought provoking.

I've done well out of buying below median in the past, though that was not out of choice, I would have preferred some blue chip areas instead that have done even better since I bought last in 2007.
 
Hi WW,

Bill mentioned that his associates in the US who are involved in billion dollar finance deals (and who Bill obviously highly respects) see a possible easing of the credit squeeze toward the end of this financial year.

thanks Shane.
that contradicts much opinion I am hearing, but every little bit helps.
I think Bill is a pretty straight credible kinda guy......it isn't as if his view is skewed by trying to flog flavor of the month funds every quarter.
 
conveyed the importance of focusing on adding value and developing to create equity rather than merely buying houses and waiting for the value to increase. So the focus has shifted from sitting on your ar$e investing to producing equity by buying well and reno and/or development. This is a major shift as it means that the investor now needs to become productive. ie: needs to be more actively involved in property projects.

I guess he would no longer agree with M Yardney that one can build a multi million property portfolio in your spare time! (unless you trust Metropole)

I'd say they may actually agree with each other...

This is precisely the spiel Yardney has used for years...

Perhaps they should do a seminar together...or have they already thought of this?
 
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What's wrong with 70-100%, unless he wants a newish building to get depreciation?

More demand for medium-density dwellings?

I'd be interested in his reasoning behind this - compared to just saying 'below median'.

Saying 'below median' forces the investor to work harder to buy value, which would allow them to buy in a 'better' area given a particular budget.

Properties with more owner-occupier demand?

Which places a lot of weight in using history to predict the future.

As opposed to ''potential infrastructure'', politicians' promises...?
 
Well hes wrong on that point.

I don't mind if he is wrong because that's not my strategy but he is shooting himself in the foot because that's where most of his previous business was coming from - NG buy and hold investors on higher tax brackets. It's a big call and like I said he has great faith in his analysis. Time will tell! :)
 
I was also there guys. He definitely has changed his advice to his clients. This comes directly from his own forecast of future events. He truly beleives that investors can no longer merely use highly leveraged mortgages to create wealth in the same way as the past 25yrs and has spent a lot of time analysing all the relevant stats.

The problem with that is that it's relatively easy for a guru to change their mind. Indeed it might win them more kudos in being seen to 'admit when they were wrong' or being 'ahead of the curve'. And if someone with a high profile changes their mind then it could almost be seen as newsworthy and generates interest for upcoming seminars etc.

While the meretricious guru may find talk cheap and profitable, the investor who acts on it might find it dear and potentially lossy. This is especially if the changes have been brought on by the need to correct previous excesses.

He didn't have a doom and gloom outlook though conveyed the importance of focusing on adding value and developing to create equity rather than merely buying houses and waiting for the value to increase. So the focus has shifted from sitting on your ar$e investing to producing equity by buying well and reno and/or development. This is a major shift as it means that the investor now needs to become productive. ie: needs to be more actively involved in property projects.

This is very reminiscent of another guru; Steve Mcknight.

When the supply of easily found casflow positive properties dried up circa 2003 (about when his first book came out), he came out with things like 'cashflow positive deals are made, not found'. This could include things like adding value, trying to charge tenants more for add-ons or buying a vacant commercial property and finding a tenant to add value (or even better using an option).

All worthy and good but demanding of a much higher level of skill and entrepeneurial streak which not many PAYE employees would have. The opportunity though for the guru is that it's a fine excuse to write another book pointing this out ;) .

As for Michael Yardney, he has yet to convince that his brand of 'managed development' delivers either lower risk or higher returns than plain good buying or independent subdivision/development.

Talk from gurus, while food for the mind and therefore worth hearing, can sometimes be most suited for a particular time that has since passed (6-12 months before your book or blockbuster seminar is about right as you can still give recent examples). At other times acting on the advice can either require a high job income or posession of the abovementioned business/entrepeneurial streak.

Fields like religion and politics have their evangelists, activists, and intellectuals. These tend to be more radical than the mainstream of their church, group, party or constituency. People have tried to map various mindsets, eg conservative or radical, libertarian or authoritarian, socalist versus capitalist and put them on a spectrum.

Affecting nearly everyone is the spirit of the times - eg financial conservatives had to be financially liberal in the 1960s, moral conservatives were driven to social liberalism in the 1970s, while socialists embraced the free-market in the 1980s. Very few stuck to their true beliefs; almost all (BA Santamaria excepted) were shaped by the times.

The views on investment gurus and spruikers can also be put on one (or more) spectrum. However they seem to jump around more often than religious or political figures. There are various possible ranges of view, eg cashflow vesus growth, differing attitudes towards risk/borrowing or level of involvement (from passive to active).

And similarly the times we're in affects what the gurus say. Eg when credit is cheap, freely available and house prices have recently risen (2006), versus when interest rates are higher, credit is tight and the outlook for prices is uncertain (2008).

Which investment gurus change their message with the times and which do not?

I count the male gurus like McKnight, Zheng, Spann as being amongst the fluctuaters.

Whereas the female gurus like Somers, Lomas and Wakelin don't seem to fluctuate.

I don't know if this is a male/female guru thing or a radical/conservative thing. Though in this case I'm using 'radical' to mean resorting to complex/unconventional purchase, options or finance techniques which none of the female gurus seem to be into.

Another meaning of 'radical' is 'extreme'. There are two extremes - bullish and bearish.

Extreme bull actions include (i) tolerating large negative cashflows, (ii) buying low yielding properties (due to faith in capital growth), or (iii) 'creative' financing or capitalising unpaid interest, (iv) buying off the plan, (v) potentially risky developments or (vi) allowing high portfolio LVRs (eg 90%). All these are based on high capital growth continuing.

Extreme bear actions may include (i) not borrowing at all, (ii) selling up, (iii) allowing only low portfolio LVRs (eg 20%), or (iv) not buying and investing in term deposits (or gold) instead.

I see property investing as a steady process of accumulating quality income-producing assets.

To me both extremes are likely to be wrong. Following one of the extremes (even if a guru recommended it) will either make you broke or a perpetual procrastinator.

And both of these distracts one from the main game which is buying when one can afford to so one accumulates a sound portfolio sustainable under a wide range of economic conditions.

Peter
 
Thanks Shane, most informative. There's a couple points I didn't understand, as follows.



Isn't this a bit like saying that prices go up because prices go up, ie a circular argument?

Looking at it in isolation, I can't see how this is valid for established homes since these are already built and there are no costs associated with them apart from council rates and maintenance.

How I think it must work is that the cost of building new homes is dependent on labour and materials, and this would generally rise in line with inflation. Given population growth/household formation this generates demand for new homes which get more expensive. Established homes, especially those deemed to be better than new homes (mostly due to 'area') are sought after and rise in value.

Hence I can't see how rises in established home prices are due to inflation. Rather they are due to demand, which is increased by household formation.

Because new and established homes are a reasonably subtitutable product (ie people can choose between the two to fill the same need) there must be some link as follows:

Inflation > Rise in building costs > New house price increases

Household formation > demand for homes (old and new)

Demand for homes + new house price increases = increased competition for existing homes = capital appreciation

Hi Peter

And there I thought inflation was caused by an increase in the money supply

I agree with the middle path that you are espousing. Of course it is a good method because I agree with you. No bias there.

:D

Cheers

Shane
 
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