Grand Central Apartment - Positive cash flow

Hi All,

I am looking at buying off the plan a 69sqm apartment in an excellent location in Newcastle. The development is called Newcastle Grand Central Apartments. The cost of the apartment they are asking is $339,950 on 3rd floor with harbour views. A car space would be an additional $28,500. Now, this "investment" includes a guaranteed rental return of 6.75% over 3 years (i know people's alarm bells start to ring at the sound of "guaranteed rent return"). I want to get your thoughts on this. I am a first home buyer so would be entitled to the full $24,000 and I can live in this apartment for 6 months and then lease it back to prime residential management and have it managed by central apartment group for 3 years (all the same company). At the end of the 3 years I can occupy the apartment, sell to an owner occupier or have the property managed by an external agent. If I elect to have a long term occupant the fees payable to Newcastle Grand Central will include 7% on gross rents for unfurnished leasing, 10% of gross rents where I own the furniture and 15% gross rents where the furniture is rented through central apartment group. Or the other option at the end of 3 years is to have it Managed by Newcastle Grand Central after Expiration of the Prime Residential Management Lease

(copied from marketing material):

At the end of the Prime Residential Management lease, if owners elect to have their units
let on a short-term/medium-term basis then it is the intention subject to any legislative
changes, that apartments will be managed by Newcastle Grand Central in the following
manner:
• Newcastle Grand Central will charge a flat Management Fee of 47.5% of Gross Rents
(plus GST) and be responsible for all outgoings in respect to the Apartments with the
exception of expenditure of a refurbishment Costs and Maintenance of a Capital
Nature, Council Rates and Body Corporate levies;
• Before the distribution of the return’s – booking reservation fees (charged externally)
and credit card fees will be deducted from the Short Term Pool before distribution to
owners and management. The whole basis of the system is that owners and
management share in the upside of growth in Business Revenue. In other words – the
more Central Apartment Group makes the more the investors make.
• Owners’ stays whilst their apartment is being managed by Newcastle Grand Central
are at half the rack rate;
• If owners in the short-term pool elect to have their returns pooled, then it is intended
that the distribution of rental income be based on the following formulae.
A x B
C
Where:
A = factored index of the original purchase price
B = Amount of funds to be distributed to owners
Newcastle Grand Central 16 Version1,1
C = total purchase price of all units in the pool

Sorry for such a long post but I wanted to provide you guys with as much info as possible as I really want comments from people more experienced than me at this.

Thanks,
Chris
 
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I am looking at buying


Wow Chris !!! That looks absolutely *****house.


Most potential buyers don't have much of a clue, especially regarding stuff that hasn't been built yet. You seem to know heaps and heaps about the joint. So much so in fact, that I wouldn't be surprised if you were not looking at buying, but in fact trying to sell.


So, now that we have been fully informed about all of the zippety do-da features (even so kind to even include a link for us.....of this empty block of land, could you let me know the five worst things about this opportunity ?? What really sux about it ?? Or, more importantly, what big bad nasty bogey-man might be hiding in the closet that we don't know about yet.


Let me kick off the list ;

1. Unknown (read little to no) capital growth on the units for the next 10 years, cos the developer rightly stripped it all out after promising to doing all the hard yards.
2. Developer goes bust or worse, drags it out for 4 years and doesn't fulfill their promises.


First post I see as well.


I was fascinated to see that the Sellers were predicting that the CPI rate was going to be 0.04% (that's very low and extremely accurate for a prediction) and the capital appreciation rate was modelled at 0.06% (that's also very low and very accurate).

I guess they mean 4% and 6%, but the level of detail hasn't been checked obviously.

Loved the copyright notice down the bottom in 1/2 font.....no-one is authorised to copy their spreadsheet. With so many errors riddled throughout - why would anybody want to ??


Mods - at the very least move this to Caveat Emptor. Buying off the Plan certainly isn't an innovative technique. I'm happy to call this spam.
 
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I am looking at buying off the plan a 69sqm apartment in an excellent location in Newcastle.
Do a search on OTP and read the horror stories, please :rolleyes:

The development is called Newcastle Grand Central Apartments. The cost of the apartment they are asking is $339,950 on 3rd floor with harbour views. A car space would be an additional $28,500. Now, this "investment" includes a guaranteed rental return of 6.75% over 3 years (i know people's alarm bells start to ring at the sound of "guaranteed rent return").
I don't care what it is called - call it "Big Hole in My Future Wealth Creation" would be a better title IMHO.
Yes, the alarm bells are ringing - do you hear them?

• Newcastle Grand Central will charge a flat Management Fee of 47.5% of Gross Rents (plus GST)
:eek:47.5% has to be a typo BUT is probably what you should budget for in any event.:(


and be responsible for all outgoings in respect to the Apartments with the exception of expenditure of a refurbishment Costs and Maintenance of a Capital Nature, Council Rates and Body Corporate levies;
What other outgoings are there - they have absolved themselves of all the standard ones :eek:

• Owners’ stays whilst their apartment is being managed by Newcastle Grand Central are at half the rack rate;
Well bu@@er me! You get to take out a loan for the place, pay all the outgoings, pay the management fees and then when you want to stay in your own place you still get shafted for rent - you can't seriously be considering this, can you.:eek:

You can stop talking now, I've stopped listening.....
 
Hi Guys,

Thanks for such honest comments. I was actually thinking of buying with the view of moving in after 3 years as my principle place of residence with the option of not doing that if I wish. I have spoken to a guy who works for prime and he has been very helpful with no pushy sales tactics or anything like that. I know so much about this property because I've spoken to him for hours over the phone and had a lot of questions. But I am concerned I would be overpaying for the apartment and will regret it after 3 years. According to their spreadsheet I would have around $70k built up in equity. I have very little knowledge about property and real estate in general is that realistic?

Is $28,500 expensive for a car space?

I appreciate your help with this.

What other strategies would you employ if you had $370,000 to spend plus gov grant of $24,000?
 
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Hi, the replies are about what every investor here will say.

Buy a standard house complete with picket fence on a standard block in a nice part of town. Surely they have those in Newcastle?

Then take out an LOC immediately on the PPOR.

Then every year whack into the super fund as much as your taxable income. This is related to age group. Check with your accountant. Extra tip: it is much better to learn about investing and thereafter, manage your own investments.

Keep paying down PPOR repayments.

Enjoy life.

Now since I don't charge anything for these comments, I can't be sued if you go wrong, can I?

KY
 
I think Newcastle apartment prices are ridiculous and must be due for a significant (downside) adjustment. I believe the local rents have been substantially driven up in the years since the RAAF introduced rent subsidies for single people, and now all those overpaid JNROFFs need somewhere to live. The RAAF subsidy is about $300 pw, they can afford to throw in another $300pw, and all of a sudden the nicer apartments in Newcastle are $600 pw.

I don't think it's supportable long-term, and I think that rents have driven prices up way in excess of what the underlying worth of the assets is.

I'm less bearish about Newcastle housing; my impression is that apartments have been much more impacted than houses. Also there'll soon be an oversupply of apartments in Newcastle, IMHO. Houses - not so much.

And then there's all the normal risks of an OTP purchase on top of the risk in that niche, and that ridiculous management agreement they tie you up with.

Have we talked you out of it yet?
 
Thanks for such honest comments.
You're most welcome. It is a bit confronting sometimes - but you get that with honesty displayed by seasoned investors who have been bitten themselves and want to help you avoid future hurt.

....he has been very helpful with no pushy sales tactics or anything like that.
This is actually a sales technique;)

I know so much about this property because I've spoken to him for hours over the phone and had a lot of questions.
Mmmmm, it called something like Stockholm syndrome....you are actually beginning to see things from the enemy's POV.

But I am concerned I would be overpaying for the apartment and will regret it after 3 years.
That's right - your gut is telling you the right thing - learn to listen to it more.

According to their spreadsheet I would have around $70k built up in equity.
Excuse the french but bu@@er me again - where the f@#k do they get these spreadsheets from?? There is no spreadsheet on God's green earth that can tell you what your equity position will be in the future. period, full stop.

I have very little knowledge about property and real estate in general is that realistic?
That is becoming obvious, but at least you are to be complemented on having the good sense to ask other serious investors......Hey and don't take my word for it - I work in the industry as a Buyers' Agent. Make sure yo get the same view from several who have been there, done that.


Is $28,500 expensive for a car space?
Not if it is in the Sydney CBD - it would be cheap. What do they sell for in Newy? You should aleady know the answer to this Q btw.

Cheers,
 
A car space in another apartment development close by sold for $16,000. It was a new serviced apartment that had a lease agreement of 5 years where the rent was "guaranteed" but you couldn't live in it so no good for 1st home buyers.

I like apartments but I understand it's better to have a land component and would prefer a new property to be eligible for max gov grant. Should I perhaps look at a land and house package? I would also like to take advantage of depreciation of fixtures and fittings as much as possible which helps make this apartment positive cash flow.

Anyway, you have talked me out of it and confirmed my gut feelings.
 
My advice: Don't do it.

Follow the advice above and read up on experiences with OTP.

YOU are actually paying for your rental guarantee. It is all part of your purchase price.

Research what other units have SOLD for in the area, not what they are selling for. To do this properly you need access to RP Data and you need to make sure it is Joe Smith selling to John Black. Not Developer selling to John Black...if you get what I mean. Developers have the means to target the right people with a nice huge marketing budget. People like you!

If you like apartments, let someone else buy it OTP.....then wait until all the speculators need to sell their brand new rental guaranteed units causing a stampede and lowering of prices. Then buy one at REAL market value.:)

Regards JO
 
A car space in another apartment development close by sold for $16,000. It was a new serviced apartment
Well good - this is evidence of a comparative sale. So paying $28K for one is $12K too much.

I like apartments
That's fine - buy one in a smaller block that does not have management fees. Plenty of these in Newy.


but I understand it's better to have a land component
Fine (you've been reading:)) but apartments also work for many successful investors on here.

and would prefer a new property to be eligible for max gov grant.
DON'T buy new just for the sake of an extra $7K of grant money. If older in established area gave you just as good return & CG for less then it would be false economy. Buying in new estates is risky also. If we have a market downturn, lots of new FHBs in these estates have to sell at firesale prices. Even if you don't have to sell, their comparative sales figures drag your house value down - not good :(. Also 2 streets over the developer is getting trouble from his lender and drops the price for brand new down to BELOW what you paid - and yours is now 2nd hand - also not good :(

Should I perhaps look at a land and house package?
Answered above - not my strategy - I would not do it. (I had a builder go broke on me part way thru a build, see, so I'm biased)


I would also like to take advantage of depreciation of fixtures and fittings as much as possible which helps make this apartment positive cash flow.
Do NOT rely on depn to make the investment work. Neg gearing may go away one day. But use it by all means - I do.

Anyway, you have talked me out of it and confirmed my gut feelings.
Just so long as its your decision. You could do better is all.
 
What worries me is buying an apartment or house but not being able to get a tenant. It's obvious why these deals look so good which is because rent is guaranteed and it is positive cash flow from the beginning. If I bought a normal apartment it would most likely not be positive cash flow and getting a tenant might be a problem therefore it would be empty losing money. That would not be a problem with an investment like these apartments - however there are a lot of other problems which have already been highlighted.

Is it really that hard to find or make an investment positive cash flow without selling your soul to the devil - which I was very close at doing!!
 
What worries me is buying an apartment or house but not being able to get a tenant.
This plays on people's fears. To take that fear way - provide a rental guarantee. Look I can sell you one of my apartments and provide you a rental guarantee of 10% for as long as you like - say 2 years to begin. Lets do an example:
Real value of unit $300K
Real value of rent @ 5% = $300 per week
I sell to you at $340K
with a rental guarantee of 10% = $600 per week
Hey fantastic - a 10% return - tell all your friends and family. This guy is tremendous!
I have $40K to play with now
I get a tenant that pays market rent of $300
I pay you the extra $300 per week for 2 years to make up the difference.
This costs me $300x52x2 = $31,200
But I already overcharged you $40K - I'm still in front!

If you do your correct DD on CG and desireable properties to rent for location etc - you will have tenants lining up at your door - without a rental guarantee!

If I bought a normal apartment it would most likely not be positive cash flow and getting a tenant might be a problem therefore it would be empty losing money.
There you go with the fear stuff again - all perfectly normal for a newbie investor btw.

Is it really that hard to find or make an investment positive cash flow
No - not if you know what you are doing.

without selling your soul to the devil - which I was very close at doing!!
Well how about selling part of it to a BA? LOL

Here's a shamless self-promotion plug:
Just posted here for the benefits of others to read. (you do not have to do this)
But here's my point. I/we just saved you $12K on a car parking space. Also saved you may $10K's of low to poor CG for many years because it would have gone to the developer's bottom line profits....all good. Also saved you high management fees for years. Also saved you opportunity cost.

But why do FHBs (not talking about you now), not want to engage a Buyers' Agent for say $6-7K who will save them many, many times that amount in mistakes they could possibly make? I don't get it.

Advert over :)
 
That sounds like what I need - a buyers agent! (didn't even know they existed!)

If I phone that mobile number on your website propertunity will I get you?

Thanks,
Chris
 
What do you mean by:

Once we have an agency agreement in place and an initial deposit has been paid, we are then ready to investigate opportunity in property. We:

Locate a property or properties for you to review.
Critically evaluate by conducting research and sales histories on the properties using the same industry data accessed by real estate agents......and once you decide on your preferred property.
Negotiate the best possible price on the best possible terms for you, the Buyer.
 
Once we have an agency agreement in place and an initial deposit has been paid, we are then ready to investigate opportunity in property.

Ahhh that means that if you hire us (as BAs) to find a property for you, it is a legal requirement to set out the terms & conditions of the agreement between us, before we set about to do that.
 
We've owned up to 20 IP's over the last few years and don't worry about not being able to rent a property now.

But we do take certain precautions.

We buy in an affordable bracket for the area . ( 600 - 650 is affordable for a well located 2 bedder in Mosman , but not for a three bedder Fibro in Logan - 250 -300 for that ) .

We don't buy at the bottom of the particular market , we did initially , but won't do that again ......

We don't buy places that have a big negative , eg busy road / over head power lines .

To date we've avoided buying in areas being developed ( we don't know what the rental demand will really be ).

We ring up pm's ( not agents ) in the area and ask them what is in demand in the area. ( I find this one very usefull - a tip from Goanna )

Neat clean and Tidy . Some people have done well buying property that are really but when the crap hits the fan , they will be harder to rent.

I'd avoid the property you're describing like the Plague

Cliff
 
Good on you Propertunity for spelling it out and good luck Chris, with your decision. :)

Great advice See change.

The only bad decision is an uninformed one.:)

Regards JO
 
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