pos geared properties regional vic where to start investigating?

People often talk about pos geared properties in regional south australia.

is it any different in regional victoria or regional any other state?


how would i find out areas to look at that have best infrustructure and most chance of both yeild and capital growth .

I know i'll probably get those who will tell me you cant get both but Rachel Barnes and others hav eproven that just isnt true.

How can i find regional victorian places and where best to buy

or how can i find in other places.

why is south australia always mentioned as a good place for pos geared regional properties and how would i begin to investigate and find suburbs there or elsewhere.

Are there some good websites or shortcuts or articles on this please.

that was a where question, i actually have a how question also

if i would have substantial equity but really lack income, how can i get a loan
and what can i do to least risk the property with the equity as i never want to do anything that could ever put a risk to that property.

Thanks

Francine.

Its just cheap in SA, we're behind the times with this boom thing. But we're catching up. A few years ago (ok, more than a few - 6) you could buy a perfectly habitable house in a half-decent area for $12k in SA but those times are long gone. There's cheaper better yielding places in the other states now.

My old house would be positively geared but you run high risk of bad tenants, and the cheap high yield areas are all a bit like that, although there is a 3-4br house near here in a half-decent area for $105k that looks pretty good and would be positively geared.

Still think your best bet is to modify your own house so it has a self-contained flat in it. Tis also likely to be the cheapest option, you'd have to get it priced. If you can do that for $20k and rent out for $200pw (or whatever it would be worth) you've got a better result than buying something for $100k that rents for the same, and with less ongoing expenses too.

Tried just searching realestate.com.au or domain.com.au for houses in the $80-120k mark? That range seems to pull up some reasonable stuff.

And you get low income loans with a lo-doc if you *need* to get creative. Got that ABN yet?

regional property

thanks for all that info and info very helpful. yes great ideas you've given me.

i see anohte rpost about someone doing this but unsure which state they are doing this in. i'd be very intersted to know

rachel barnes said she was warned about bad tenants but it never happened. she used this method alot and bought some 70 pos geared properties in a very short time some years back.

its been a method on my radar every since.

thanks so much

sow hat sort of deposit or income would banks want even for a pos cash flow property and how can i do a good job or researching a good area for it and assure it is pos cash flow

thanks

francine.

If you go lo-doc sneaky sneaky you need 40% deposit, which from what you say, buying a ~$100k house you've more than got enough equity.

The bigger question is can you genuinely afford to pay a $105k loan? If the house is vacant for any stretch you do actually need to be able to pay for the house, positively geared or not. Otherwise you'd be better off just squirreling away money until you have Real Cash. We quite comfortably pay for our ~$100k combined loans (2 properties and 1 block of land pending subdivision) but there's two of us, and only one of you. If we went fulldoc on the same income we declared lodoc we would only get $20k max loan, hence lodoc ... just the differences in how they assess income.

I like the suggestion from some other thread about only buying stuff cash with gold or coins and putting the silver away. Good way to save. And once you've got a regular savings plan happening without hurting the rest of your budget, that amount you can save becomes what you can afford to spend on a loan and will dictate how much you can borrow. And then any amount you get in rent (after expenses like rates and PM fees) you put aside and don't touch. And then you're ahead

Francine said:

How can i find regional victorian places and where best to buy
or how can i find in other places.
why is south australia always mentioned as a good place for pos geared regional properties and how would i begin to investigate and find suburbs there or elsewhere.

Click to expand...

Francine, the reason most people go to regional centres to get cf+ is that prices are low and rental yields, by comparison to metro areas are high. So it doesn't take too much effort to go out to the sticks to find cf+ properties. The issue with doing that is that typically (not always of course) you sacrifice CG for doing so.

Come with me for a moment and let’s examine “normal” housing rentals. They used to be 3-4% yield. But rents went up (a lot) and prices went down (a bit). So standard yields are now around 5.2% and so are SVR (Standard Variable Interest Rates). I’m not talking fixed rates here – just variable. So a “normal” resi house in a metro area costs you nothing to own EXCEPT for council rates ($1,400), LL insurances ($720), PM fees ($1,000), Mtce allow ($1,000) = $4,120 LESS Depreciation @ say $5,000 and assume tax at 30c in the dollar = $1,500. LESS Negative gearing benefits assume tax at 30c in the dollar = $1,236 Therefore total costs to hold = 4,120 - 1,500 - $1,236 = 1,384 per annum OR $26.60 per week.
So a normal resi house is cf- to the tune of $26.60 per week – big deal!

Q: So if you want to stay in the city, how do you make property cf neutral or cf+?
A: Increase yield (rental), decrease % interest rate or lower fixed overheads.
Conclusion: You cannot decrease % interest rates (much or at all). You cannot decrease fixed overheads like rates, insurances, etc unless you self-manage – let’s not go there! Only option remaining is to increase rental yields. So how to do that:
1. Tack a granny flat onto the normal resi house (as RE said) – gives an additional $200 per week income. This gives a 7.5% gross yield. Although the vast majority of these arrangements are not council approved, literally thousands of these set-ups exist. The best ones are where you have rear lane access to a property or a back yard that can be fenced off to separate the flat yard from the house yard. There seems to be a never-ending supply of tenants for 1 brm flats – pensioner or widower (guaranteed govt. income), single divorcee (50% of marriages fail), young couples starting their life together. Added bonus is that there is always an income stream if one or the other is vacant. Almost no chance both are vacant at the same time.
2. Buy a normal resi house near a University. The rent is calculated by the room but paid for by the week like any other. One person signs the lease and is responsible for others rent collection. Example: $320K house with 3 brm rents for $130 per room = $390 per week (every day of the week). This is perfectly legal – we’ve checked with Fair Trading and is standard practice for properties close to a University. Don’t think also about wild Uni students having parties and wrecking stuff either. Virtually all the places I’ve seen like this have fee paying foreign students (mostly Asian). They have their heads down, bums up and are quiet, hardworking students who cannot afford to fail a single subject – or they get sent back home in disgrace. It is their parents that are funding their accommodation and living expenses. We just purchased a 3brm house like this for $282.5K that would normally rent for $290-300 per week to a family but will rent for $390 per week to Uni students. That is a 7.2% gross yield. This is cf neutral.
3. Buy a normal resi unit in a high yield area – like Auburn in Sydney at the moment. Pay $220K and rents for $265 per week or better. Only 6.2% yield but getting there.

Hope this helps and shows that you don't have to go outback to get cf+ or neutral. You can do this in Capital cities or larger regionals - where ever it suits you.

Or if you're serious about getting ahead, you really may have to consider selling your place since it is so hard to borrow against it with your income.

You could sell it, buy three or four regional places outright or two further-out metro ones outright with the dosh, be debt free and just live off rent. Wouldn't get much pension though. Or downsize, get a managed fund and live off the interest - same deal, less hassle with tenants. Even better if you can downsize not too far from where you are to a house that IS subdivisible or already has a granny flat out the back or is one of those rabbit warren style old houses that is very easy to convert into a few pseudo-flats. Downsize to near a uni and you can rent some rooms out to very quiet Asian students. My father-in-law keeps one or two Asian students in his attic, his attic is 2br, with a small lounge and a bathroom so is almost completely self-contained, and they go back home during the holidays. I have lived in various houses in my student years that were divided into small self-contained psuedo-flats with the owner living in the largest part. At minimum all you really need is a house with an ensuite/master area for you, and a normal bathroom/some bedrooms at the other end of the house for them.

There's ways and means but *something* has to give, pretty obvious you're not satisfied with the current situation. Sometimes you just do what you have to do to get ahead.

But if you absolutely have to stay in your own home, you've got less options. You sell yours you don't trigger tax and could do some serious investing *if* you significantly downsize. Equity isn't worth much if you're low income.

Actually you want the local version of this little sucker:

http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bin/rsearch?a=o&id=105466209

Not the most attractive house (which is probably why it hasn't sold yet), but its a 3br with a whole extra building out the back that you could jam a bunch of students into if it was near a uni.

Heck, if you lived in and owned this little sucker you could stick a bunch of windfarm workers out the back at hotel rates (which is where they stay anyway with the lack of rentals round here) and live in the house yourself.

So yet another example of a cf+ house. It hasn't sold because the market here is for OOs and retirees, and its ... ugly ... and a little overpriced.

*waits for someone from SS to buy it*

The last two interesting houses I posted on here sold within a week, not sure if it was coincidence or if I should be getting a finder's fee from the local agents lol ... mind you one I posted because it just had a major haircut on the price and was suddenly good value so it probably was nothing to do with me at all, but I can still think that, right? Right?

RumpledElf, you're on fire!!!! Turbo posting...reminds me of the good old Alexlee days....

Couldn't be bothered with the 'edit' button

Brought my 1st place (townhouse) 5 months ago and hoping in a couple of months time when I start renting it becomes + geared

Asking Price 6 months before purchase $439,000
Asking price at time of Purchase "Offers from $389,000"
Purchase Price - $340,000
Bank Valuation during purchase - $385,000 (seller had bank knocking on his door)
Loan Amount - $308.000 @ 5.01%
Repayments (IO (soon)) - $1,285.00 a month
Next Doors rent (same everything except theres has a slightly smaller courtyard) unfurnished - $400 a week
Mine will be funrished, has aircon upstairs and down and will soon have new bath & Kitchen so looking for absolute min of $425 a week
Uni down the road so looking to rent out without a PM
Strata Fees - $225 a quarter
Rates - $1200 annual

I know there are plenty of othe rthings to factor in but not to sure what and how much

Propertunity said:

1. Tack a granny flat onto the normal resi house (as RE said) – gives an additional $200 per week income. This gives a 7.5% gross yield. Although the vast majority of these arrangements are not council approved, literally thousands of these set-ups exist. The best ones are where you have rear lane access to a property or a back yard that can be fenced off to separate the flat yard from the house yard. There seems to be a never-ending supply of tenants for 1 brm flats – pensioner or widower (guaranteed govt. income), single divorcee (50% of marriages fail), young couples starting their life together. Added bonus is that there is always an income stream if one or the other is vacant. Almost no chance both are vacant at the same time.

Click to expand...

This is always been a good approach, however, what about this one, is there any point in setting up a crappy little granny flat or even a shaq with the intention of pulling it down completely and building a proper unit or townhouse down the track??? or is this too much wasted effort/opportunity

Property Meister said:

This is always been a good approach, however, what about this one, is there any point in setting up a crappy little granny flat or even a shaq with the intention of pulling it down completely and building a proper unit or townhouse down the track??? or is this too much wasted effort/opportunity

Click to expand...

This is for francine - who hasn't got the income to pull it down and rebuild. She owns the house and wants to get income from it somehow.

Property Meister said:

what about this one, is there any point in setting up a crappy little granny flat

Click to expand...

crappy residence begets crappy tenant - if that's want you want - go for it!

Property Meister said:

or even a shaq

Click to expand...

Are you thinking of shaquille o'neal or a "shack"?

Property Meister said:

with the intention of pulling it down completely

Click to expand...

Mmmm, no I've never considered building with the intention of pulling it down completely later on. I have done a couple of quick makeover renos like that, where the house will be pulled down - but I still spent $20K on the reno with a 10 year time horizon in mind for the demolition.

Property Meister said:

and building a proper unit or townhouse down the track???

Click to expand...

I suppose you could. Horses for courses.

Property Meister said:

or is this too much wasted effort/opportunity

Click to expand...

Depends on the $'s. I have no problem spending $45-50K on a studio / bungalow / g/flat if it gives me $200 in rent - thats just beautiful to me. But at that kind of money it is a permanent structure!

Propertunity said:

Depends on the $'s. I have no problem spending $45-50K on a studio / bungalow / g/flat if it gives me $200 in rent - thats just beautiful to me. But at that kind of money it is a permanent structure!

Click to expand...

Sorry, couldn't get the multiquote thing going...

sorry, don't mean to hijack, but I guess I probably am,

if I find a crappy old house that needs to be demolished to subdivide,

however if I wasn't too sure when I d do it, say next 6 months-2-3 years,

I know that I could put in a fresh coat of paint to up the rent a in the short term, but I was thinking say spending $10k-$20k on it would be a complete waste of $$$ if I was to tear it down in <5 years...

Francine:

People often talk about pos geared properties in regional south australia.

Regional Australian property investing is just one way to invest, there are many, it's up to the individual, the investor, to decide and get it going and learn and do..

is it any different in regional victoria or regional any other state?

I invest in regional Victoria, (only), I am aware of many other investors investing here, and I know many regional Vic investors, it's my backyard.

I do not know personally, any other State by State regional area investors, apart from various investing books I've read.

how would i find out areas to look at that have best infrustructure and most chance of both yeild and capital growth .

By selecting an area and studying/researching it, even if choose not to invest there, you do no harm, I have personally found practice is excellent training. Open realestate site for both for sales and rent windows, compare asking price sale figures for similar asking rents, in same areas, same type of dwellings, talk to agents, talk to property managers, talk to other investors, go to open for inspections for sales and rent places, talk to people within the community(s).

You can access a selected areas Shire site, google is an amazing tool to find articles/reports/statistics..

This forum has lots of threads on stuff, reading property investing books, here are median house growth statistics and growth per annums for many of Victorian cities, regional and metro, suburbs and smaller country towns...it is from the Victorian Valuer-General, it is considered well regarded as a full compilation of ALL sale stats for Victoria, if you want I can mail you older paper documents showing older statistics...indicating relatively solid past performers..please read the whole thread to get a sense of statistic interpretation, it also has links to things like little rp data info for individual postcode snapshot looks...and lots of other stuff..I DO NOT base my investing in these figures, I do not know anyone who bases solely on median house price stats, BUT GROWTH PER ANNUM about figures is handy to know, handy info to have, alng with other due diligence, and remember they are only past performance figures, NOBODY has a set crystal ball to know FOR SURE that these figures will be achieved in the future, however take out the top end performers, the low, lowly end performers, and there is a lot of good stuff in the middle, metro, metro suburbia and regionals...much of a muchness. My key has been buying well.

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45620

Here is a thread, relatively recent about some areas of regional Vic:

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53095

I invest in regional Vic because I know it very well, I have lived in these places, gone to school, worked, I have seen them grow and prosper, there are gems in people's own backyards. I'm not sure where you live Francine but have you looked and studied your own area. As what Propertunity wrote in his/her thread...areas around metro, if you live in a metro area, just my thoughts, but I like to keep everything pretty simple, IF I lived in Melbourne, I doubt very much that I would be chasing regional investing, I would be ratting around my own backyard-but that's just me.

I know i'll probably get those who will tell me you cant get both but Rachel Barnes and others have proven that just isnt true.

Most things are possible and we possess the creativity factor within us...I get a good solid smattering of growth, and rental return, but my shining light has been BUYING WELL..negotiating and researching and opportunism...BUT what is good for me is not everyone's cup of tea, remember. We are all quite different and have different circumstances, perceptions, needs, financial nitty grittys.


How can i find regional victorian places and where best to buy

or how can i find in other places.

Please see above conversations..it will depend on you, it is ALL ABOUT YOU! What you want, can juggle, have you sat down with a mortgage broker to talk dirty little figures? They know their stuff, and it is all about you. Plus what is around your own neck of the woods? Look, listen and learn...

why is south australia always mentioned as a good place for pos geared regional properties and how would i begin to investigate and find suburbs there or elsewhere.

Are there some good websites or shortcuts or articles on this please.

that was a where question, i actually have a how question also

if i would have substantial equity but really lack income, how can i get a loan
and what can i do to least risk the property with the equity as i never want to do anything that could ever put a risk to that property.

Have you sat down with a mortgage broker? Have you gone to the Melbourne MIG meetings? assuming you are in Melbourne...they are possibly likeminded people/investors, some learning, some experienced but possibly willing to share their journeys and experiences and knowledge with those just starting out.

So you wont be guessing and can get some concrete substance about your borrowing capacity, a mortgage broke, face to face chat is sounding better and better, IF I WERE YOU. Internet can be confusing, you can do it later, but I'm thinking a MIG meeting and concrete chat with MB is going to be rewarding, as in concrete knowledge. There is just so much and so many ways to invest...lets take the opportunity to get you some solid info, face to face.

Sound like a plan? ....and have fun, learn and research, talk about figures and areas, but above all have fun.

Thanks

Thankyou Francine. You do make me think.

Click to expand...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

....having said all that, I am quite passionate about regional Victoria, in many ways though, the sights, the country, the people..and I love to read "stuff" about it too.

One of the first sites I was generously shown, (just for stuff), was the ABS; Australian Bureau of Statistics, I love to rat around there, looking at snapshots of stuff. From time. I do not base my investing on it, but it is interesting:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Products/3218.0~2007-08~Main+Features~Victoria?OpenDocument

VICTORIA



STATE SUMMARY

GROWTH IN MELBOURNE

GROWTH IN REGIONAL VICTORIA

POPULATION DECLINE

CENTRES OF POPULATION

LOCAL GOVERNMENT AREA POPULATIONS


STATE SUMMARY

Victoria's estimated resident population at 30 June 2008 was 5.31 million people, an increase of 92,500 people since June 2007. The 2007-08 growth rate of 1.8% was higher than the average annual growth rate (1.5%) for the five years to June 2008.

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OR//

South Australia

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]~Main+Features~South+Australia?OpenDocument

State by State:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/mf/3218.0

Past release stats:

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@... Issues&prodno=3218.0&issue=2007-08&num=&view

A 2007 ANZ Article I found interesting and had saved:

http://www.anz.com/documents/economics/RandR_Regional_Population_Growth_July07.pdf

An Old bit of stuff, 2004ish:

http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/CA256F310024B628/0/A20D42ADE8F37412CA25702000099B26/$File/YQA+-+Regional+Victoria.pdf

I have things and stuff stored on my computer I have forgotten about, a lot of it relates to Regional Vic and investing, it's just another bit of my favored reading material along with seeking enlightenment and many other interests...just sharing.

The abs stats can be misleading without on-the-ground knowledge though.

The two larger towns near here are both in district councils - the dubious one with welfare problems and an abundance of empty houses in states of smashed windowed graffiti ridden decay that is on a major decline reports a small increase in population (not surprising considering how many kids everyone has). This town also regularly ranks in property investment magazines as a good area for high yield - property prices there are extremely low, so the *figures* look good but no way in hell I'd invest there. The handyman we use works for the local property management agency and he is run off his feet fixing tenant-caused damage like broken windows and smashed walls and doors, and they don't mention THAT on statistics websites or property magazines.

The other town likes to report itself as one of the richest and fastest growing towns in the area (we went into a butcher we hadn't been into as new customers last night and we got the whole sales pitch), and with all the enormous posh new houses going up on every street it is hard to dispute that claim. However the district council reports a small decline in population. Yield there is pretty poor but rents (and house prices) are *much* higher and vacancy rates are *much* lower so you get a better class of tenant as unemployed renters simply go to the other towns that are cheaper, but on paper the figures look bad.

I don't really follow the third large town round here, it seems to be growing but with the lower socioeconomic groups rather than the overly cashed up people we have here. Its crawling with positively geared places but there's usually heaps of places advertised for rent, which can't be a good sign. I've visited a couple of times but don't like the 'feel' of the town. Some places 'feel' good when you go there, some don't, you probably don't want one that doesn't feel right. Quite often the 'feeling' is simply a function of how much effort the locals put into taking care of their houses and how much work the council does to the local infrastructure.

If you're going to go regional you really need to get out there and visit the towns you're interested in, talk to the locals, check out the unemployment rates, look at how large the local centerlink is etc. I'm sure our area isn't the only one that has a painfully obvious social divide that spans *towns* the way it spans *suburbs* in the city.

All this research equally applies to suburbs in a metro area, of course.

RElf:

If you're going to go regional you really need to get out there and visit the towns you're interested in, talk to the locals, check out the unemployment rates, look at how large the local centerlink is etc. I'm sure our area isn't the only one that has a painfully obvious social divide that spans *towns* the way it spans *suburbs* in the city.

All this research equally applies to suburbs in a metro area, of course.

Click to expand...

I think this is where I may have the wood on some investors, knowing my investing backyard so well, and yet there are people that have great investing opportunity right under their little hick noses, BUT mindset kicks in. Even investors.

There are people that fly into some of the regional cities on auction day and buy, some buy over the phone, some have got so practiced and good at what they do...and there are some that just let deals slide on by... The theatre that accompanies investing, (whether it's metro or regional is never dull).

Investing can be a multilayered game, people can do or undo=untalk themselves out of so much. Then there are investors that take the leap, things don't run how they expected and it is "renters" or the "town" or the "city/area" they have invested in fault...

Here is my coupla year old ANZ link, it has some nice graphs, some astute observations, and don't forget Victoria, many parts of it has just had it's sad little butt dragged through, (in some areas) 10 to 12 years drought-of the worst kind.

And survived, and still prospered.

http://www.anz.com/documents/economics/RandR_Regional_Population_Growth_July07.pdf

Many of the regional cities are catchment cities for the surrounding population....for many of the young adults that move on to try their wings, people come into the places to retire...One third of Victoria's population do not and will not choose the metropolitan area to live in. Many, MANY families want to raise their children in country areas.

I have said before, the investing sun does not rise and set with metro areas, nor the coast. If you choose, and if you do your research, the regional areas is affordable and rewarding investing.

As people that are taking charge of their financial compass and wealth building, we have so many choices, not necessarily rights and wrongs, cities vs sticks and hicks but opportunity for everyone.

our obsession said:

One third of Victoria's population do not and will not choose the metropolitan area to live in. Many, MANY families want to raise their children in country areas.

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This is where Victoria differs to SA - in SA 90% of the population is in one city, and the two next biggest cities (with about 30k each) are reasonably close to Adelaide - one is practically a suburb now. There's several largish satellite towns south of Adelaide.

But north of Adelaide there's only one city over 15k people, two at around 10k and the rest are barely scratching 2k people each. When you're getting down to such small numbers you really, really need to visit the town to see if it is coming or going - 8k and above you can do research from a distance much more effectively.

You've got some damn good options over there in Victoria for regionals

I'm no historian Relfy, but the magic Vic thing, would be the historical initial gold town settlements?:

Started out as little tent cities, panning and digging for their fortunes, and over time turned into the little thriving regional metropolis's.

Bendigo

Ballarat

Castlemaine?

Maryborough

Ararat

Then the beautiful farming soils, I am familiar with; Hamilton/Wimmera areas, the great sand farms of the Mallee, direct drill those and you make a buck even in gut wrenching droughts.

Then there are the beautiful old river ports Echuca, Swan Hill I'm not so sure...Mildura was a Chaffey (USA bros) settlement thing...Not sure why Geelong sprung about, but why not?

Then there is the north/central/eastern varities...Shepp, Wodonga, Gippsland areas, and haven't even got into the coastal utopias.

We need an Aussie history teacher, that and a geography wizard on the board, pick their brains of the development of the States over time.

Maybe we could invite Bernard Salt in for an evening?

I dropped back to put up some good read links and data and pretty little graphs:


http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/DSE/dsenr...56D650018B64A4CA023FAC31D9D5CCA256D650016CB01

Urban and Regional Research

The Spatial Analysis & Research branch of the Department of Planning & Community Development conducts research across a range of topics, including population, housing, land development and employment. This research explores key issues for Victoria's cities, towns and rural areas. Understanding and communicating how these issues impact on urban and regional change is vital to making informed and sustainable decisions about the future development of Victoria. Contact us to receive our quarterly research bulletins.


Whats New

2009 Urban Development Program Residential & Industrial Forums
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Exploring current research issues as well as highlighting newly released publications, projects and seminars of interest, the June edition of Research Matters is available now.


Victorian Population Bulletin 2009
The Victorian Population Bulletin provides a valuable snapshot of information on population change and the basic drivers behind that change.


Victoria in Future 2008 Regional LGA Projections
Population and household projections is now available.



Statistics

Census 2006 Data and Analysis
Victoria in Future 2008 (population & household projections)
Towns in time (1981 - 2006 Census data)

Suburbs in time (1981 - 2006 Census data)

Click to expand...

ALSO, from that site:

http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/CA256F310024B628/0/93412014D2B3385BCA2575C4000718A1/$File/Vic+Pop+Bulletion+09.pdf

Gotta say though, South Oz is beautiful, the whole frigging country is a mass of beauty and contrast.

Bernard Salt once called the Wimmera as "boring and flat"...(never mind it is a stone's throw and leap) to the Grampians/Gariwerd Park, and has some of the finest farming soil (the Clever Germans initially settled onto!)....the boring flat Wimmera is now very serious about putting in the bid for the WORLD'S biggest solar power station, spread out over 800 hectares, requiring some flat, sunny, country that can access into the grid. Boring, flat and sunny can have it's day...maybe.