Think houses not dollars

It occurred to me that many discussions of achieving financial independence start with the investor asking the following questions:

1. What do I want to do with my life?

2. How much money do I need to do this (to provide an acceptable income stream) and for how long (based life expectancy)?

From there one can made a 'needed wealth' projections based on things like CPI, ability to save, size of portfolio that can be built, toleration of risk, acceptable leverage, yields and capital growth of assets etc.

The benefit of this is that this approach can be applied to most forms of investment, eg shares, cash and property. Conventional financial advisers would likely be comfortable with planning along these lines.

However all this can generate an anxiety about money, especially in recessionary times.

For the panicky investor it could lead to them selling good assets if their value drops.

I am going to suggest a somewhat different method limited to real estate, with the following steps:

1. Examine affordable housing costs relative to people's incomes (Henderson did some work in the 1970s for his poverty index). Public housing defines housing affordabilty as housing expenses being under 25% of income, leaving 75% for all the other stuff like food, transport, health, entertainment etc. http://www.fabian.org.au/903.asp. So let's accept 25%.

2. Assuming your housing costs and expenditures are average, and you wish to conform with the 25% rule, then you will need to own 4 houses outright, not including costs like rates, maintenance and management.

3. Of course all the above costs are very real, and may be around 1/5 (at least) of the total, hence you'll need another house - ie 5 houses fully paid off.

4. To allow a contingency fact for vacancy and bad tenants, another house, fully paid off, would be good, so that brings the total up to 6 houses fully owned.

5. The main exception to 4. above is if you own your own modest house outright in which your costs will be just rates, insurance and maintenance, which should come to under 25% of total income.

6. So for a wide range of cicumstances, you will need the income equivalent of 6 houses paid off: either as all IPs or 1 x PPOR + 5 x IPs. And this is based on a fairly modest expenditure but sustainable indefinitely as there is no eating into capital.

This is pretty much the bottom line for an average existence - if you want more you must buy more (or buy 6 dearer but suffer lower yields, or blocks of units for maybe higher yields).

And note that actual dollars was not mentioned. It would seem to me that while values fluctuate, houses will remain affordable to someone to buy or rent as otherwise no one would. And if you own 6 normal houses outright then there's no doubt that one would be sustainably financially independent provided their personal budget was balanced.

One gets into the dollars and capital growth and strategy in making it happen. There is a line in 6. above that you might have missed but is significant. It is the 'equivalent of 6 houses paid off'. It could be just that - 6 houses and nothing else. Modest, boring but workable.

Or it could be 6 paid off plus 6 more leveraged (but cashflow neutral on average). This could be left as is, with capital gain left to do its thing, or the more conservative might sell up to reduce debt. Or, if you're agressive, 30 houses with 20% equity in each, but note that there'd likely be no net income due to the interest (unless bought years ago when hey were cheaper).

This thinking of 'houses not dollars' goes counter to the conventional financial independence mantra that 'investments are a means to an end, and in this case it is to make money to be financially independent and do/be what you want to do/be'.

Looking at the financial arrangements is no doubt a useful tool for assessing portfolio performance.

But it can lead to anxiety, worry and excessive complexity.

Could some of this be reduced if we think of houses as currency? Equity and progress towards aim could be thought in terms of X houses-worth owned instead of a dollar value (only useful for examining one's own progress, not so good if comparing with others since values vary). This way of looking at it makes fluctuations in value less important, as houses have the same utility (and potential to earn rental income) no matter whether it changes from being 'worth' $200k today to $190k or $210k tomorrow.

All one might need to remember is that ' modest financial independence is the equivalent of 6 houses fully paid off' (but add more if desired).
 
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Hi Peter,

Houses, Henderson poverty line, and average are probably 3 different things.

In terms of average property, are we talking about an outer 3bd x 1, or slightly closer 2 x 1 unit?? The rent on such being close to the single age pension, before costs.

Two such properties would return above the 'couple rate' for the pension, again before costs.

For a couple, I think just 4 IPs and the PPOR would be in front of all pensioners by a long way, and probably most retired couples, hence 'above average'.
Against average income for earners though is where you probably need the extra property.

bye
 
A rule of thumb could simply be 6 houses in suburbs equivalent to where you would be happy to live. Someone with high living expenses would naturally want more expensive inner city property; whereas someone of more modest needs would be happy with 6 properties in outer suburbia.
Burbs.
 
Interesting point. Financial independence is difficult to link to "number of houses" even if you are referring to averages, mainly because calculating averages are difficult and multi dimensional. For example, average for an individual may be totally different to an individual in a relationship with two dependents, up keeping a hobby of vintage motorcycles in the middle of a city.

To say that it's 6 houses, puts an amount to the discussion...what is this amount?
 
G'Day

Yes, Peter, I have always maintained that one needs 5 houses.

What we live in is personal choice - a modest unit or a palatial McMansion

However, my reasoning was that of the 4 income producing properties, 1 whole rental would go towards servicing the standing costs, property management and maintenance of all the properties.

Essentially, this then leaves 3 properties to produce sufficient income to be 'independent', while having a stable capital base which grows over time, and a yield which also increases year on year.


There is a comfort factor with five properties. This is a comfortable and relatively modest goal, easily achievable over time. Most people work for 50 years and if all five houses are purchased before the age of 35 will all be paid off by the age of 65 with little direct effort.


Property Investing - despite our egos at how clever we are - is really a no brainer. Buy houses, make money is simple. Buy flats is even simpler. Over time, they will all grow and will all be paid off.

However, if you start investing later, then the first ten investing years may need to be dedicated to buying, say, 10 properties, so that 5 can be sold in early retirement to pay out any remaining loans, thus providing 5 fully paid properties.


We live in the Lucky Country. There are pensions and benefits for almost any circumsance. However, I cannot bear the thought that after 50 years of work that I should retire on $569 per fortnight ( http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/payments/age_rates.htm ). How two people can live on $475 each per fortnight - the Tuesday Roast at the local RSL would only be affordable in months beginning with 'R'.


So roll on with the houses. Don't stop at 2 or 4 or even 10. Be as wealthy as possible. Two Roasts per week provides employment. Be wealthy and share it around

As Billy Connolly says in the ING ads:

'I've been rich and I've been poor. Rich wins'.



Cheers
Kristine
 
I like the ideas, Peter. And you've expressed them in an easy to follow description. Thank you.

That sort of normalisation - to the cost of houses - is one I've observed personally in the cost of Ferraris over the years. A new Ferrari, maybe the more expensive 12 cylinder model, seems to cost about the same as two median-priced houses (in our major capitals).

6 houses outright, or more as Kristine suggests :), sounds a great perspective.

Regards,
 
6. So for a wide range of cicumstances, you will need the income equivalent of 6 houses paid off: either as all IPs or 1 x PPOR + 5 x IPs. And this is based on a fairly modest expenditure but sustainable indefinitely as there is no eating into capital.

This is pretty much the bottom line for an average existence - if you want more you must buy more (or buy 6 dearer but suffer lower yields, or blocks of units for maybe higher yields).

And note that actual dollars was not mentioned. It would seem to me that while values fluctuate, houses will remain affordable to someone to buy or rent as otherwise no one would. And if you own 6 normal houses outright then there's no doubt that one would be sustainably financially independent provided their personal budget was balanced.

One gets into the dollars and capital growth and strategy in making it happen. There is a line in 6. above that you might have missed but is significant. It is the 'equivalent of 6 houses paid off'. It could be just that - 6 houses and nothing else. Modest, boring but workable.

Or it could be 6 paid off plus 6 more leveraged (but cashflow neutral on average). This could be left as is, with capital gain left to do its thing, or the more conservative might sell up to reduce debt. Or, if you're agressive, 30 houses with 20% equity in each, but note that there'd likely be no net income due to the interest (unless bought years ago when hey were cheaper).

This thinking of 'houses not dollars' goes counter to the conventional financial independence mantra that 'investments are a means to an end, and in this case it is to make money to be financially independent and do/be what you want to do/be'.

What a relevant and timely thread for me/us! :)

Our plans are to own 3 x sets of duplexes outright one will be our PPOR.

OUR ACTION PLAN
Build first duplex and move in to one side. PROGRESS - DA into Council this will be IP No 3 & 4
Move LOC from current PPOR to newly built duplex.
Sell PPOR and build second duplex - IP No 5 & 6
Set up self managed super fund and build third duplex [May need a small loan to achieve]. - IP No 7 - 8.

Rational
If we build new duplexes less maintenance, good depreciation and easier to rent.

Diversification
Buy shares in lowest income earners name

LEVERAGE
IP No 1 - 4 x 2 x 2 slab house 20% deposit 80% loan - offset account
IP No 2 - 3 x 1 x 2 (garage) duplex unit 100% lend via LOC & loan


On another note I was participating in a manual handling course today and the presenter said - If you can't move the object which needs to be lifted with your foot or toe then it is too heavy to lift by yourself.

Everyone's perception differs = what types of IP's we have.

Everyone on the forum who owns an IP or 2 etc. has different levels of experience, knowledge of IP's and wealth creation strategies, skills to value add and income from paid employment.

There is a big difference between household incomes of $30,000 for a couple with 1 kid and $250,000 for a couple OR single income earner BUT you have to start your self funded retirement somewhere and nothing is equal.


Regards
Sheryn
 
I would venture that 5 or 6 properties fully paid off represents significantly more than the average Australian will see in retirement. If you don't owe money, and are paying only costs, then you could expect to receive around 80% of the rent that comes in the door.

Where I live (Canberra), average rent is around $400 a week at the moment. 80% of 6 fully paid up houses equals $1920 a week, or about $100k a year. Certainly a better retirement than the average Aussie, plus you have a lot to leave to children or charities when you pass away.

Numbers are pre-tax, of course...
 
Where I live (Canberra), average rent is around $400 a week at the moment. 80% of 6 fully paid up houses equals $1920 a week, or about $100k a year.

Geez, not much at all for a couple who are retiring is it? You'd really want to be relying on super as well to fund your retirement.

With exit strategies so expensive, I've been considering LOE + super for my retirement.
 
I would venture that 5 or 6 properties fully paid off represents significantly more than the average Australian will see in retirement.

There seems to be a study every now & again that finds 80%/85% or something like that of retired people have only the pension.

5 or 6 fully paid houses is 'light years' in front of average.
 
I would venture that 5 or 6 properties fully paid off represents significantly more than the average Australian will see in retirement. If you don't owe money, and are paying only costs, then you could expect to receive around 80% of the rent that comes in the door.

Where I live (Canberra), average rent is around $400 a week at the moment. 80% of 6 fully paid up houses equals $1920 a week, or about $100k a year. Certainly a better retirement than the average Aussie, plus you have a lot to leave to children or charities when you pass away.

Numbers are pre-tax, of course...

This is what we are aiming for, $100k yr with not mortgage repayments (plus whatever inflation which may occur in the next 20-30yrs before we retire) . :) Plus any super and other investments on top of...just to make us really comfortable.

Honestly you can think about it in terms of the number of houses if you want, butfor me it always comes down to money - I like to know how much I am talking about, probably because I like money. I think often people focus on how many houses they want and forget what that means in terms of income.
 
Sitting down to prepare tax stuff for accountant this weekend it really does hit home what a crazy investment resi property is for income.

Sure capital gain is great, it offers a stable base to leverage at high LVRs, low costs, and low covenants to buy shares and comm property (much better than using margin loans or comm loans), but its TERRIBLE for income!!

I wouldnt want to get to 100k passive income using only resi property, it would be the world's biggest headache and actually massively risky.

Other investments such as shares and comm property can do that job!
 
You'd have to explain to me what the below mean in $$$ terms cause I don't understand all that stuff like you do. How much money will I have to spend if I go with what you described below ? That would influence me in agreeing or suggesintg I wanted more or less (?)


1. Examine affordable housing costs relative to people's incomes (Henderson did some work in the 1970s for his poverty index). Public housing defines housing affordabilty as housing expenses being under 25% of income, leaving 75% for all the other stuff like food, transport, health, entertainment etc. http://www.fabian.org.au/903.asp. So let's accept 25%.

2. Assuming your housing costs and expenditures are average, and you wish to conform with the 25% rule, then you will need to own 4 houses outright, not including costs like rates, maintenance and management.

3. Of course all the above costs are very real, and may be around 1/5 (at least) of the total, hence you'll need another house - ie 5 houses fully paid off.
 
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There was an article in one of the UK papers recently about how much was needed if you didn't want to work again.

One of the contributors (an unnamed banker at a dinner party) reckoned that £3 million was the sort of sum required, and that would yield about £100,000 per year indexed to inflation.

Putting that back into houses, that would equate to six median properties in Melbourne to generate $100,000. (Or more if you wanted a more extravagant lifestyle.) Which roughly fits with the comments made above.
 
Yep, 6 properties and around $100,000 a year, isn't this money taxed? So -40% would equal $60,000 and an entire lifetime of hard work until you can pay them all off.

OR

4 properties neutrally geared growing at 7-10%p/a
take a LOC and theres your $100,000p/a.. Except this is not taxed, you want to be safe? Only use $60,000 and leave the rest, retire young, what happens if the no growth? go back to work for a while you poor thing
 
I like thinking of maintaining my lifestyle by number of houses.

4 average houses would maintain my income and considering that you would be moving focus from building wealth to maintaining it. 4 would actually be more than needed.

1 for costs and I'm good to go.

5 paid for and I'm set.
Still a few decades to achieve this by my early 50's so reaching this is very possible.

And if i only get a few houses??? Well it better than nothing at all.

I watched an old lady walk away from a shop today because she could not afford a coffee( I grabbed her and bought it for her by the way).
I don't want this after a lifetime of working.
I may not retire rich but I will be comfortable without the worry of financing my retirement.

That's the plan anyway .
 
This is what we are aiming for, $100k yr with not mortgage repayments (plus whatever inflation which may occur in the next 20-30yrs before we retire) . :) Plus any super and other investments on top of...just to make us really comfortable.

Same here. $100k/yr passive income from resi (on maybe 6-7 fully paid properties), plus some extra from other areas. But planning on retiring in 7yrs (at age 42), so really don't care about super. Wish I didn't have to even pay the damn thing. What a waste of 9% of income that could be better used.
 
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