Making serious money from property all luck?

Reading several of the stories on here how people made some money, most of the stories have somewhere in them "after buying the property for x amount the price went up by 70% (some large figure) in just this short amount of time because of a boom"
It seems like everyone who's made there money has been lucky and ridden a boom, and the people you don't hear telling the stories are the people who brought too late.

So is a house, after rent and tax deductions, are you destined to only really ever to make say 7-10% profit yearly and only if you get lucky see a massive capital increase?
 
G'day Pauly

Welcome to the Forum

Well, the only property of any use to you is the one with your name on it.

The most basic formula is Buy Houses Make Money.

It really is that simple - I make common reference to my Mission Brown Wonder.

I bought it in about August,1994, during The Recession We Had To Have.

Just down the road from me, been on the market for months, paid $105,500 which was the balance of the Vendor's mortgage.

It was tenanted at $150 per week.

So I've had the property 16 years. It's now worth high $3s - low $400,000s (very low) and it rents for $325 per week.

I still owe about the same on the mortgage. It looks after itself.

So is this an amazing result? I dunno. After I paid the deposit I have not had to put any other money in to that deal, so essentially I got all the capital growth for free!

But - I have had it 16 years. It has trebled in value in that time and the surplus money from the rent has helped me to buy other properties. They have all done OK, too, but it is time in the market which does it.

I don't think I've ever been clever enough to buy any remarkable deals - at the time, but they have all become remarkable deals over time.

If you think that property investing is property gambling or property luck, well, no it's not.

It's primarily about simply buying property and time will take care of the rest.

Along the way there may even be a few duds - I have bought good property and dudded it quite well! I took the asbestos off one property about eight years ago and it's still in the same state as the day the asbestos crew left. But it's in a great position, and the land has appreciated despite the condition of the house.

So it's not all wine and roses, but it's great fun and sure beats doing the dishes.

Buy what you can afford, when you can afford it, hold it long enough and you will see what property investing is all about

And don't take too much notice of the more razzle dazzle stories, just chart a straight course and you will find there's gold in them thar suburbs even if the property is painted Mission Brown!

cheers
Kristine
 
Of course property goes up in value. Everything does over time. The trick is to hold onto it long term and to use other people's money to pay for it, but think of it this way:

Even if property did not go up in value, the rents do. So, you've found a litttle house somewhere that won't cost you anything (or not much) to hold onto, because it has a good rental yield. Over time, this rent will double or triple and the morgage will stay the same (or even less, if you want to pay it down).

Now, based on Kristine's IP in her post, she was getting $150pw from this one house and was not dipping into her pocket to pay for it. Now she is getting $325pw. That is $175pw FREE, that she does not have to work to achieve.

I posted yesterday on the rental increase that I had just put in place on my portfolio. $160pw! They will all most likely get another increase in another six months.:D

Of course, the CG on top of that is the sweetener. :D
 
Luck in property really only happens to those who have undertaken the hard work of research and understanding.

There are instances that timing may assist, however, if you are investing for the long term, this is really not a major player.

On saying that, the worst case of someone not deserving his "luck" was a man who was left part of a substantial farm.

Whilst the other family members sold off their share, this person not knowing what to do did nothing and sat on the land.

20 years later and a whole new established township 20km from a major city was built up to his doorstep.

In 1970's the land was sold for over $35 million.

:eek:
 
pauly people do get lucky and they also use their due diligence, in their buying, of property,
with shares people also get lucky and make lots of money also, but do you here of the stories about them loosing the same amounts , There is a housing shortage and wages will go up as with property, but i would like you to consider studying this trade long and hard , read and look and listed to whats going on around you, allow yourself to learn the trade , through SS and other magazines.
I thing if you like earning money and one needs to learn about it, we often study for 4+ years to learn atrade or achive a degree, and if you apply the same to property you will never fail. so if you like money you need to learn about it. :D

Tiger woods said,: the more i practise the luckier i get , but i don,t know if he was talking about women or golf, but it still holds the same value LOL.
 
Last edited:
It isn't ALL luck Pauly but there is a strong element of being in the right place at the right time. The skill is in being able to spot it when you ARE there.

If you think about it, everybody is in the marketplace but only a limited number manage to see the opportunities. There is always a bull market somewhere and if you can pick it, you're on the road to success.

I'm in the minority here and don't believe property is in a bull market, nor will it be any time soon.
 
I have attached a graph of the last 20 years of capital growth for a house in the Sydney LGA, and make the following observations:
1. Real estate growth does not go up in a nice smooth linear fashion.
What it does, is have periods of low / no / falling i.e. "flat" growth - identified in the graph in 3 areas as "Flat". Looking at the graph you might also identify the time around 1990 as being "flat" also.
2. In between these flat times are growth spurts - some are quite dramatic. It is not uncommon to see 40% & 50% per annum growth in some years.
For what it is worth, these are the years that the media reports as "boom" years (and rightly so). It is also the time that experts come out and say it can't go on forever (which it can't).....whilst others come out predicting "the end of the world as we know it" :rolleyes:. and "how can our kids ever afford a home" and "we have the most unaffordable housing in the world except for New York, London or wherever..."

In my brief time on the planet, I have seen several types of people and how they made or lost money by investing in real estate.

1. The novices. They are easily swayed by some of Doom & Gloomers who are currently predicting that point "D" is the precipice of a cliff, off which prices will fall. Unfortunately, the novices take their advice and sit on their hands waiting for the price of real estate to get cheaper before they "buy in". When prices don't go down, they blame the government for artificially propping up the market or some other excuse.

2. The genius. He buys at the end of a flat spot (like "A" in 1999) and sells 2 years later in 2001. He got in and out and made a profit. He is the talk of the dinner table. All his friends, including himself, think he's a genius. He does it again, buying in 2002 and selling for a good profit at the end of 2003 only 18 months later....more genius. Unfortunately, this guy buys back in after a dip in 2005 and 3 years later has only just managed to get his original investment back minus holding costs and transaction costs. :( His friends, that took a lead from him this time, aren't all that impressed anymore.:eek: Some of them go on ACA or TT to complain about how they should be compensated for their losses since they invested their life savings.

3. The guy that always loses money on real estate. I have a tiler who is like this. He buys at the peak of the boom - like "B" in 2003/4, holds through the flat / downturn and after 3 - 4 years of no growth, sells at point "C" :eek:. He tells all and sundry that only lucky people can make money in real estate.

4. The guys who buys and sells too soon. He's like the guy in point 1. above, buying in 1999 and selling for a profit in 2001. He looks back in hindsight in 2004 and realises that he missed a further $1/4 Million by not holding for 3 more years. If he's smart, he will learn to hold forever (in my opinion).

5. Finally, I see those that are not smart enough to "time" the market. The only thing they "know", is that taken over the long term (10+ years), that real estate always grows in value. They buy, they hold through the ups and downs and flat spots of the market. They ignore the media "noise". They see the government of the day and its policies as largely irrelevant to wealth creation. They take the RBA's announcements with a grain of salt. They certainly don't sell when educated economists on TV predit a 40% fall in prices.......and they end up very wealthy.

Which one will you be pauly? :)
 

Attachments

  • RECycles.jpg
    RECycles.jpg
    55.2 KB · Views: 372
Pauly,

I think there's more than one way to skin a cat. I take a very different view to Propertunity and it's one that works for me. Having said that, I equally don't believe that luck is involved...

I have a pretty simple formula for buying property:

Must be free standing house on own title
Must be within 10km of Bris/Syd/Melb or 5km of Adel/Per
Must be in a median or higher suburb on a socioeconomic scale
Must be cashflow positive at current interest rates
Must be cashflow positive at 9% (my view on long term interest rates)

...and I've bought heaps that meet that criteria. Most of my purchases were in the 90s, but so be it - I had plenty of people telling me at the time I was stupid for investing in property. I didn't (and still don't) care what happens in terms of capital gains, I've bought a series of income streams at far less than what I thought they were worth.

What I do think is a "luck driven" strategy is simply buying an investment (be it property, shares or whatever) without a view as to what you're expecting to achieve by acquiring it. If your strategy is to buy an income stream then buy assets to support it. If your strategy is to look for opportunities to realise a short term capital gain, then know your exit point and plan accordingly.

On the other hand, if your strategy is to "acquire 10 resi IPs" (or equally "acquire a share portfolio of $x") then that is a luck driven strategy, IMO. If your strategy is "to acquire 10 resi IPs with a risk and cash flow profile of x, because that means that I'll be able to retire on an income stream of y" then that's far less "luck driven" because you're managing to your final objective ("retire on an income stream of y") rather than a way point ("acquire 10 resi IPs"). If the risk profile and cash flow profile change due to changes in the market, you can reset your way point to still meet your final objective, whereas you're otherwise relying on the way point automatically delivering your objective.
 
I know a chap, who bought a house in 1989, for $65,000. He paid the legals, etc, some $3,000, and borrowed the $65,000. It rented for $150 per week. He tells me that today, he still owes the $65,000, and collects about $350 per week in rent. The house was just valued at $480,000. So, on his investment of $3,000, and perhaps a few dollars in the early years when the interest rate was high, he worked out pretty well.
 
hmm yes all very good information thank you all!

I guess its possible to make good money with the market fairly easily if you know what your doing, and for people that don't know what their doing, if they hold long enough time will take care of it!

Like you said Propertunity, I guess those get rich quick stories are people that have brought a bunch of properties right before a boom and sold not long after for a massive profit, these people are either very lucky because they happen to be in the "right place at the right time" or they somehow had an idea it was going to happen making him a genius. (Is it actually possible to know when this is going to happen? isn't it like saying I know when share prices are going to boom?)

Either way if you hold for the long term everyones a winner :)

I guess I'm in a lucky situation (luck we made ourselves really), I'm very young with an extremely good job and in a stable relationship with a girl who is making amazing amounts of money for her age. We can easily save for a deposit on a half a mil house every year or so (having dual income living at home with no debt is amazing for the bank account!, guess it will change once we move out though and start a family). I guess our plan is to grab a hold of this market as early as possible and in 20 years time we'll be just pass 40 and hopefully be in a nice financial situation.

I guess I have a lot more reading to do, Gremlin you have raised a new strategy that I haven't thought of before, and now going to have to make a new thread of "positive vs negative geared" hope to get more great responses from you guys,

Thanks again!
 
I guess its possible to make good money with the market fairly easily if you know what your doing, and for people that don't know what their doing, if they hold long enough time will take care of it!
Yes, even if you buy at the peak of a boom, there is another peak coming after that.......in all likelihood.

(Is it actually possible to know when this is going to happen?
No. Experienced investors can get a "sense" of it. I smelled it coming in 2008/9 and got shouted down at the time by a few, for saying so ;)

Either way if you hold for the long term everyones a winner :)
If you take anything away from this, I think this is a key thing in investing in RE.

I guess our plan is to grab a hold of this market as early as possible and in 20 years time we'll be just pass 40 and hopefully be in a nice financial situation.
Sounds like a plan.

and now going to have to make a new thread of "positive vs negative geared" hope to get more great responses from you guys,
Oh, please don't do that :eek:. Just do a search on the many threads that already exist on this topic. Cheers mate. Alan
 
I have a pretty simple formula for buying property:

Must be free standing house on own title
Must be within 10km of Bris/Syd/Melb or 5km of Adel/Per
Must be in a median or higher suburb on a socioeconomic scale
Must be cashflow positive at current interest rates
Must be cashflow positive at 9% (my view on long term interest rates)

...and I've bought heaps that meet that criteria. Most of my purchases were in the 90s,

What’s your strategy now?
 
Making serious money from property is mainly about spending time in the market, which can be enhanced a bit by timing the market.
 
(Is it actually possible to know when this is going to happen? isn't it like saying I know when share prices are going to boom?)

No. Experienced investors can get a "sense" of it. I smelled it coming in 2008/9 and got shouted down at the time by a few, for saying so ;)

Because rental yields and property prices move at different times in the cycle you can sometimes get a sense that movement is coming when the yields start to get higher than the average in an area.

For instance, as prices rise, rents stay the same, or they could actually go backwards briefly as more investors move into an area, creating a glut of rentals. Over time, the rents go up in these properties and the vacancy rates get lower as fewer people are purchasing. Fewer people purchasing means that prices stabilize, maybe even move backwards briefly. As the vacancy rates lower, there is more competition for the rentals pushing the rents even higher until the point that people start to buy once again as they can now see the value in purchasing rather than renting.
 
Must be free standing house on own title
Must be within 10km of Bris/Syd/Melb or 5km of Adel/Per
Must be in a median or higher suburb on a socioeconomic scale
Must be cashflow positive at current interest rates
Must be cashflow positive at 9% (my view on long term interest rates)

In Perth you would need either yields to quadruple or values to come off 75% before any innercity, free-standing houses were CF+ at 9% IRs.
 
What’s your strategy now?

Retirement.

But if the question is, "what would my strategy be if I was me but 20 years younger?" I reckon the answer would be other value driven investments. I developed similar rules for each asset class that I invested in. I don't see many opportunities (for me with my value bent) in property at the moment, but I do in other asset classes.
 
In Perth you would need either yields to quadruple or values to come off 75% before any innercity, free-standing houses were CF+ at 9% IRs.

I agree wholeheartedly. Or to put it another way, I bought in Perth before yields fell 75%. And I wouldn't buy there now. But I appreciate that others, with differing assessments or different investment strategies, may very well do so...
 
I know a chap, who bought a house in 1989, for $65,000. He paid the legals, etc, some $3,000, and borrowed the $65,000. It rented for $150 per week. He tells me that today, he still owes the $65,000, and collects about $350 per week in rent. The house was just valued at $480,000. So, on his investment of $3,000, and perhaps a few dollars in the early years when the interest rate was high, he worked out pretty well.

I know a lady, who bought CBA shares in 1991, for $65,000. She paid nothing extra and borrowed the $65,000. They paid $ 92 per week at the time, with a further $ 39 per week chucked in as a bonus.

She tells me that today, she still owes the $65,000, and collects about $ 670 per week, with a further $ 287 per week chucked in as a bonus. She sure does enjoy that $ 957 per week.

The shares yesterday were worth $ 631,000.

So, on her investment of nothing, and perhaps nothing in the early years when the interest rate was high, she worked out even better.


Of course, whilst he over the 19 years had to put up with and pay for ;

  • Council rates
  • Water rates
  • land Tax
  • Insurances
  • Maintenance
  • PM skimming fees
  • Blocked toilets
  • Leaky rooves
  • Paint peeling
  • Carpets thinning and staining
  • Light globes breaking
  • RCD installations
  • Tenants skipping off
  • Neighbours complaining
  • Fences falling over
  • Locks not working

.....whilst he was doing that, she was off touring the country-side with not a care in the world. The people working for her always kept her fully informed, and never - not once, failed to pay her on time.

She checks her account once every 6 months for the money to arrive, which it always does. Nothing ever comes out. He checks his letterbox constantly for all of the bills arriving and needing to be paid.
 
Back
Top