$180 per hour to use solicitor?

[Bloss]

Interesting that anyone else trying to charge these rates would be on Today Tonight or similar as an extorsionist.

Bloss get's to see it fairly often where because of the outrageous fee's charged by solie's, average Joe can't afford the fee that the rich man can and guess who get's the good deal.

Not nessecarily the guy with right on his side, but the one with the $$$$

I just feel that while people keep thinking that it's OK to get sharked for these sort of fee's, the legal boy's will keep increasing their fee's and the guy's who can't afford the high fee will get shafted.

And the wealthy get off


Is this how you feel it should be?

Alex, do whatever you want, wherever you want, whenever you want.


You can obviously justify it to yourself, and good for you.

BB

 

[Jamie]

Does this make it right, and how much do you see of this? Not much i'd guess.

BB

How is this different from any business owner? Businesses charge clients a price for goods and services, and they charge their workers a lesser amount as an hourly rate. Which part is troubling you?

How else would a business owner make money?

One unit at work charges clients $110 an hour for a service. We pay the employees that provide that service $45 an hour.

What would you have us do instead? Isn't it turning a profit that enables you to employ people in the first place? The client is happy to pay the price, the employee is happy to work for the wage, and the business turns a profit/provides employment.

Just struggling to see your point Bloss/BB.

Thanks,

Jamie.

 

[Bloss]

How is this different from any business owner? Businesses charge clients a price for goods and services, and they charge their workers a lesser amount as an hourly rate. Which part is troubling you?

How else would a business owner make money?

One unit at work charges clients $110 an hour for a service. We pay the employees that provide that service $45 an hour.Jamie.

Now that I can understand, a reasonable ammount to cover overhead's, wages etc.

But $265/hour....... come on.

BB

 

[alexlee]

Now that I can understand, a reasonable ammount to cover overhead's, wages etc.

But $265/hour....... come on.

BB

Does that mean we shouldn't hike our iron ore prices because it'll hurt Chinese battlers?

Obviously you can't depend on lawyers' (or real estate agents, or accountants) morality to kick in and lower prices. Government mandated pricing is a slippery slope, because you have bureaucrats who have no idea about markets setting prices.

I would say simplify the legal system. Make more use of mediation, say, instead of outright court cases. Simply the tax laws, conveyancing, divorce, etc so that lawyers and accountants can't hoard knowledge and charge premium price for it. Until then, of course..... it is what it is.

As for the rich getting the best advice and the battlers getting screwed: that's how it has always been. Personally, I think things have improved. At least the battlers now have access to loans, basic legal advice, etc.

Where do you draw the line if you decide something is too expensive? Train fares? Plumbing? Petrol? Food? Where would we find a Solomon-like character to decide what is 'reasonable'?
Alex

 

[Jamie]

Do you really believe that just because you have an expensive solicitor you are getting a better result ?

average Joe can't afford the fee that the rich man can and guess who get's the good deal.

In your first post you argue that the price you pay has no effect on the result, then in your second post you state the guy who pays more gets the better deal.

You're losing me here. Which side are you arguing?

Jamie.

 

[Bloss]

Alex , thank's for acknowledging that some of these guy's do have morality problems, and that simplification of the legal system would be well on the way to sorting some of the problem's.

While I do have an issue with some other overly expensive thing's , none of them really have a lasting effect on ones life like the bad advice on one end , or the savaging on the other that a solicitor can give a person.

Some ,not all, seem to take a certain delight in making peoples life hell, and extracting every last cent from a situation, and we are thankfull that we have never had any real need to employ that particular breed of vindictiveness.

After all, we're into property, and the conveyancing of this is not rocket science, and does not warrant a $260/hour legal team, in our opinion.


Jamie, you are taking my meaning out of context a little , and maybe adding a word like "necessarily" is what was required to help you have a better understanding, but I believe that what what Alex has said above covers what my feelings on the subject really are.

Have Fun


BB

 

[alexlee]

Alex , thank's for acknowledging that some of these guy's do have morality problems, and that simplification of the legal system would be well on the way to sorting some of the problem's.

While I do have an issue with some other overly expensive thing's , none of them really have a lasting effect on ones life like the bad advice on one end , or the savaging on the other that a solicitor can give a person.

Some ,not all, seem to take a certain delight in making peoples life hell, and extracting every last cent from a situation, and we are thankfull that we have never had any real need to employ that particular breed of vindictiveness.

Any number of people in the world take a certain delight in making other people's lives hell, not just accounants and lawyers. Every group have petty and/or vindictive people who delight in their power. Dictators. Politicians. Council staff. Immigration officials. Bank staff. Shop staff. Cable TV people. Hotel staff. Real estate agents. Garbos. Bus drivers. Post office staff. Where do we stop? It'd be nicer if everyone just charged as much as 'necessary', but that's not going to happen. Also, do you really want that to happen?

Extrapolate that a bit. Everyone just works as much as 'necessary' and research and invents only as 'necessary'. Most of our technological products wouldn't exist if everyone stopped at 'necessary'. Hunger for more is the basic emotion behind businesses, new inventions and new experiences. Humankind would advance a lot more slowly (you can argue that's not a bad thing) if 'necessary' was the objective. None of us would travel anywhere. Nor push any boundaries just to see what's on the other side. Or try to do stuff just because we thought we could. It's the same emotion that drives a business to charge as much as they can without killing off demand. Turn off the ability to maximise profit and you kill off a lot of invention in society.

We built this tax and legal system that is so convoluted it gives people who know more about it power. The solution is not to try to influence the players (human nature being what it is) but to simplify the rules so that everyone has a chance at winning. Personally, I think it is already better than it used to be. As you said, for something fairly simple like conveyancing, you don't need a guy who charges $260 per hour. The guy who charges that much for conveyancing either has stupid clients or clients who for whatever reason are willing to pay that (and who are we to say they shouldn't?) However, if you have someone who is out to ruin you via a lawsuit, you may be thankful for a rottweiler lawyer on your side.

In Australia, an ordinary person on average wage can, over 30 years, built a whacking big portfolio (to say nothing of entrepreneurs who make billions starting with nothing). THAT's what I consider a game with reasonably fair rules. The system shouldn't try to make everyone 'equal' in terms of what they have. The system should try to make it so that everyone has a chance at succeeding if they choose to do so and make the effort.

Full disclosure: I'm a card-carrying accountant who works in a bank. As for my morals..... my signature says it all, really. Me, my loved ones and friends come first. My care factor decreases with distance and relationship to me. Given the opportunity, I WILL try to buy a house at the lowest possible price (and yes, take advantage of a distressed seller - the more distressed the better). I WILL try to make every last cent in a deal, unless I believe leaving some money on the table will make me even more money through business relationships, goodwill, etc.
Alex

 

[duncan_m]

Every group have petty and/or vindictive people who delight in their power. <snip> Council staff. Immigration officials. Bank staff. Shop staff. Cable TV people. Hotel staff. Real estate agents. Garbos. Bus drivers. Post office staff. Where do we stop?

Ha! None of those professions or even a small minority of bad apples in each of those professions come close to the arrogance, viciousness and callousness displayed by so many Lawyers.. especially when it comes to Family Law, they seem to delight in escalating the conflict to stratospheric levels, the higher the level of conflict the more they can bill.

 

[alexlee]

Ha! None of those professions or even a small minority of bad apples in each of those professions come close to the arrogance, viciousness and callousness displayed by so many Lawyers.. especially when it comes to Family Law, they seem to delight in escalating the conflict to stratospheric levels, the higher the level of conflict the more they can bill.

Yet when real estate agents foster the same emotions amongst bidders at an auction, get a high price and get paid, they're given awards.

I'm not saying all lawyers are nice people, just that it's pointless to rail against the products of the system. The law (and their fee structure) rewards them for fostering conflict. Morally, of course they shouldn't take advantage of that if it means they have to foster conflict. In practice.....I have too little faith in human nature. In any case, why shouldn't the divorcing parties act like adults and get a grip on their emotions? They have some responsibility, surely.

Change the system to eliminate demand for legal services in case of divorce instead.

It's like asking property investors NOT to claim their -ve gearing because it takes money away from battlers. I'm not volunteering........
Alex

 

[duncan_m]

It's like asking property investors NOT to claim their -ve gearing because it takes money away from battlers. I'm not volunteering........
Alex

You're all over the shop Alex.. I'm not volunteering either.

I also bleat long and hard about changing the system.. a good start indeed..

But efforts to change the legal system shouldnt silence us from ALSO bleating about a profession that has a huge share of morally bankrupt practitioners.

We can legislate until the cows come home, but this profession in particular will always be there to twist and manipulate the system and to set parties to war against each other in the very real prospect that their income will climb forever high.

 

[NigelW]

Dunc

You feel you've been burned by high charging lawyers in a family law matter. The lawyers typically get involved in such matters when things are an an emotional low for the divorcing parties. I think the heightened emotions at such a time make it easy to resent fees for any service.

At the end of the day it's a question of supply and demand. If you are in a market where hourly rates are the norm, and you duly disclose up front what that hourly rate is, a client engages you and you do your best to represent their best interests in an efficient way...why shouldn't you then be able to charge them as was agreed in the client fee agreement?

Market forces determine how much services providers can charge for their skill. If you're not worth the fee people won't pay it and you'll have to lower your fees or starve...

My 2.2 cents worth (altho at over $500/hour maybe that should be more )

ps. because I'm worth it baby.

 

[duncan_m]

You feel you've been burned by high charging lawyers in a family law matter. The lawyers typically get involved in such matters when things are an an emotional low for the divorcing parties. I think the heightened emotions at such a time make it easy to resent fees for any service.

Nigel,

My divorce, property settlement and child custody arrangements were completed without recourse to lawyers, courts, mediators or counsellors.

 

[NigelW]

Nigel,

My divorce, property settlement and child custody arrangements were completed without recourse to lawyers, courts, mediators or counsellors.

Well done Dunc. Apologies for my assumption. I assumed from the venom in your post it must be due to hard experience. How then have you formed your conclusion all lawyers are durty steenken rats?

 

[duncan_m]

How then have you formed your conclusion all lawyers are durty steenken rats?

Not "all" For example, I think the sun shines out of Major Michael Mori's butt.

I've helped a couple of mates through their divorces/custody battles (read correspondence, attemped to decode it), and I've had involvement with lawyers for various reasons in other matters. I've met lawyers in social settings and had insight into their profession that way.. I've read reports in the media, followed blogs of guys who are fighting custody issues, read transcripts of cases.. it's no single thing thats led me to my position..

 

[Bloss]

Any number of people in the world take a certain delight in making other people's lives hell, not just accounants and lawyers. Every group have petty and/or vindictive people who delight in their power. Dictators. Politicians. Council staff. Immigration officials. Bank staff. Shop staff. Cable TV people. Hotel staff. Real estate agents. [B]Garbos.[/B] Bus drivers. Post office staff. Where do we stop? It'd be nicer if everyone just charged as much as 'necessary', but that's not going to happen. Also, do you really want that to happen?


Alex

Well Gee, wouldn't we be in a world of grief if these guys decided to charge $260/hour.

Seems the solicitors and politicians set these guy's rates of pay at what it is, but who set's the solicitors and politicians rate of pay...............Oh that's right, the solicitors and politicians.

I think the world could live without solicitors and accountant's but i'd like to see a solicitor or accountant live without the Garbo's, Shop staff ,Hotel staff and hundred's of other essentual contributers to society etc.

BB

 

[alexlee]

I tend to jump a bit when it comes to philosophy. I see parallels in many things in life. Humans are pretty consistent: if you expect them to behave in a certain way in one situation (e.g. if you think they shouldn't charge as much as they can) then you must also expect them to behave along the same lines in another situation (we shouldn't 'charge' as much as we can on our tax deductions). Both are examples of the same emotion: using the rules and system to our benefit.

I see parallels between people who think 'lawyers rort the system' and people who say 'property investors rort the system'. How many times have we heard 'moral' people say they don't want to be landlords and screw the system and renters? A friend (and he wasn't even trying to be nasty), after hearing I'd raised the rent, say casually 'So, just squeeze the pips until they squeak, eh?' I don't think they're right, but they don't accept my arguments.

My own view: the system is what it is. We either vote with our feet and use another lawyer (in this specific case), or become a political force to change the rules. I'd assess doing the former based on quality of service and am too lazy to do the latter. Lobbying for change all the time may mean the rules eventually change to your detriment. I think it's easier to just play the rules as they are and play them well (i.e. find a really GOOD lawyer. If they're expensive, so be it.)

I have to say, I'm biased. I work in an industry (banking) where people get paid absolutely ridiculous amounts (think about those articles about Goldman Sachs bonuses: I don't work in front office but that's the type of people I deal with daily). You wonder how any human being can be paid that much and how much their work can be worth.

Most of the people I work with spend their days thinking up ways to spin money from the system, with absolutely no contribution to society (playing the tax laws, interest rate differentials, dividends, etc). My industry doesn't produce anything other than tons of paper and makes the economy a lot more complicated than it 'needs' to be. But that's the trough I'm feeding from, so it's hard for me to complain about it.
Alex

 

[julia]

Hey Exclude Accountants Please

I challange you to find an Accountant that charges even half as much as a solicitor yet the Accountant is the one dealing with a law that is constitantly changing. Lump us in the same group and our attitude may shift from one of wanting people to be able to afford our help because we want to help, to one of lets get on the band wagon.
Have a look at the free publications section of www.bantacs.com.au so confident are we that our knowledge can help you save big dollars we give you all the advice you need free of charge, with references. We believe once you know how much we can save you you will come to us anyway as our fee is minimal compared to what you will save by getting it right.

Julia
www.bantacs.com.au

 

[Bloss]

My sincerest appology there Julia, as I realize that the vast majority of Accountants are just fine.

I think it was alexlee's admission to being one and then going on with the

"Most of the people I work with spend their days thinking up ways to spin money from the system, with absolutely no contribution to society (playing the tax laws, interest rate differentials, dividends, etc). My industry doesn't produce anything other than tons of paper and makes the economy a lot more complicated than it 'needs' to be. But that's the trough I'm feeding from, so it's hard for me to complain about it."
Talk like that got me thinking he was sounding a bit iffy.

Again , Julia, I appologize to you.


But then looking back, it was Alex the accountant that is mentioning accountant's

"Obviously you can't depend on lawyers' (or real estate agents, or accountants) morality to kick in and lower prices. Government mandated pricing is a slippery slope, because you have bureaucrats who have no idea about markets setting prices.

I would say simplify the legal system. Make more use of mediation, say, instead of outright court cases. Simply the tax laws, conveyancing, divorce, etc so that lawyers and accountants can't hoard knowledge and charge premium price for it. Until then, of course..... it is what it is. "

Maybe an inner guilt thing, eh.


BB

 

[julia]

Its ok BB I'm not that offended, I just do think we are the most under paid of all the professions and it gave me a chance to put in a free plug for the web site.

Julia
www.bantacs.com.au

 

[Dazz]

I just do think we are the most under paid of all the professions

Hi Julia, perhaps it has something to do with the fact that accounting is not a profession - certainly not historically.

Everyone has jumped on the bandwagon in the last 20 or so years and calls themselves a member of a profession - even down to the laundry and dogwashing brigade.

Historically, there are only four professions recognised. Those being ;

1. Medicine
2. Law
3. Engineering
4. Arms


So, Doctors / Lawyers / Engineers / Commissioned Officers in the Forces are "in".

Accountants / Finance Brokers / Stock Brokers / Real Estate Agents / Insurance Salespeople / Architects / Hairdressers / Granoworkers / Brickies / Builders / Physios / Pschys / Surveyors / Electricians / Horticulturists / Govt Clerks and every other swinging cat are "out".


Or so it was in the 'olden days'. No doubt everyone in the latter group would violently disagree.

Heaven forbid - the bar has been lowered so much nowadays, that instead of needing to complete 4 or 5 years of university - and then commence further years of professional training on the job before you can rightly call yourself a professional - you can now sit a 5 day course at the age of 18, and "graduate" to call yourself a Professional Property Manager.

To me - having attained a Bachelor of Engineering (Honours) - being a professional has lost all of it's gloss.

Being a business owner and investor has far more stroke than being a "professional".

Henceforth dismounts from personal hobby horse.