2 PPORs for married couple?

[Perp]

I don't understand this mentally some people have that you should pay your taxes based on some moral obligation that it's somehow the 'right' thing to do.

As you're not the first to misunderstand, let me clarify: I think that everybody should pay every dollar of tax that they're legally obliged to, but no more. I have zero objection to anybody structuring their finances and ownership in a manner that's legal and minimises tax - you'd be crazy not to!

But I think that lying about where you're living, or other frauds often proposed as a means of avoiding taxes that it's really quite legitimate to have to pay, is not OK. It's fraud.

 

[Jom]

Back to the topic

So the actual answer to my question about my scenario is "NO"?

 

[alexlee]

But I think that lying about where you're living, or other frauds often proposed as a means of avoiding taxes that it's really quite legitimate to have to pay, is not OK. It's fraud.

Does that mean if the government levies a tax to use in a manner that I morally object to, it's ok NOT to pay it, even though I legally have to? Would I be jusfied to lie about something in order to avoid paying such a tax? I would answer no, because I base these things only on legal requirements, not whether the tax is 'legit' or not.

I still think you're mixing the moral (legit / not legit) and legal (fraud / not fraud). I pay as much tax as I'm legally required to, regardless of what use it's put to, because that's the law. There is no moral element to tax for me.
Alex

 

[Mry]

So the actual answer to my question about my scenario is "NO"?

Yes, the answer is no.

Check out this decision, it helps to understand the principles at work.
http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?find="2003/785"&docid=AID/AID2003785/00001

 

[Perp]

Does that mean if the government levies a tax to use in a manner that I morally object to, it's ok NOT to pay it, even though I legally have to? Would I be jusfied to lie about something in order to avoid paying such a tax? I would answer no, because I base these things only on legal requirements, not whether the tax is 'legit' or not.

By "legit", I mean "legal" - you're seeing a distinction where I didn't intend one. I would answer no, too.

I still think you're mixing the moral (legit / not legit) and legal (fraud / not fraud). I pay as much tax as I'm legally required to, regardless of what use it's put to, because that's the law. There is no moral element to tax for me.

I think that the moral imperative is to obey the law; I make no moral judgement on the rightness or otherwise of that law, or the uses to which taxes are put, either. If we don't like the law, we should campaign to change it, but we must be obedient in the meanwhile.

I'm not sure why I'm not clear; I don't think we're in disagreement.

Let me try again: I think there is a moral obligation to obey the law. Lying about where you live to obtain tax benefits is a fraud. Fraud is against the law. I find breaking the law morally objectionable. Simple as that.

Sorry, Jom, that in making what I thought was a straightforward statement, the thread has become cluttered with clarifying it!

I guess you now have your answer, anyway

 

[Jom]

That's ok

I am disappointed to read that what I was proposing to do is not possible. Thanks anyway to everyone who replied.

Now to start planning whether I should offload the property before the wedding?

Would CGT be determined from the date of signing contracts or when settlement takes place? I'm assuming settlement...

 

[DavidMc]

I do not get a warm feeling when paying taxes because I'm contributing to the common good: for me it's a necessary evil and the only reason I'm paying it is because I haven't found a legal way to NOT pay it.

I don't understand this mentally some people have that you should pay your taxes based on some moral obligation that it's somehow the 'right' thing to do.

Alex, Mark,

Just to play devils advocate, would you prefer a country where nobody pays tax?

Or is it that you'd be OK with paying it if it was spend in a more effective way?

 

[alexlee]

Alex, Mark,

Just to play devils advocate, would you prefer a country where nobody pays tax?

Or is it that you'd be OK with paying it if it was spend in a more effective way?

Ideally, of course, I would prefer the govt tax other people but not me. I'd just prefer that I don't pay tax. Realistically that won't be possible. Still, if I can keep my assets growing without having to pay tax until I sell, that's not bad.
Alex

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

Hi David,

I think it's great that people pay tax - I just don't want to be one of them.

Mark

 

[alexlee]

Yes, optimally I would have a different set of laws that applied only to me and mine.
Alex

 

[feihong]

We are all capitalists individually, who want to live in a socialist society

 

[Altitude]

Alex, Mark,

Just to play devils advocate, would you prefer a country where nobody pays tax?

Hmmm, won't mind living in Monaco

 

[alexlee]

We are all capitalists individually, who want to live in a socialist society

Dictatorships might be ok if I am the dictator.
Alex

 

[ianvestor]

I have no problem contributing and paying tax, I just have a real problem with the rate... 10-15% is more than enough, and it should be flat. Our tax rates in Aus are a joke.

 

[asdf]

So no more creative solutions? Sorry Jom I tried but unfortunately there appears to be too many people who are afraid of THE LAW. I wonder who briefs the $5000 a day tax silks.... I know, companies and rich folks. Perhaps this issue is cut and dry in terms of interpretation but if you think like a poor man, Kerry Packer you will never become.

 

[Perp]

ianvestor, I guess the issue is that most Australians want first-world services from their government, and if we want that, we have to pay for it somehow. I notice that first-world countries generally have much higher taxation rates than less developed countries, presumably because we expect so much more from our governments.

What I would love to see, though, is a radical overhaul of the mechanism by which we collect taxes. I'd like to see lots of simplification and streamlining; our tax system is orders of magnitude too complicated. I wouldn't even mind if I had to pay a bit more if it were a lot simpler!

If one considers that a tax system can go the spectrum between the following extremes:

* simple - eg Pauline Hanson's "2% on everything" - this would be extremely simple but also inherently inequitable because it takes no account of individual circumstances

* complex - every individual's overall circumstances would be examined by the ATO and decisions made on an individual basis as to how much tax they should pay - which would be extremely complex but very fair assuming we all agree with the principles used to decide in assessing each individual's circumstances (yes, I know, big assumption but that's not the issue I'm talking about here)

I think we've gone way too far towards the latter scenario; I'd rather things were moved a long way towards a simpler system, even if it produces some inequities. (eg The exemption of a few items from the GST has made administering GST orders of magnitude more complicated; it absolutely should be universal.)

 

[Perp]

Perhaps this issue is cut and dry in terms of interpretation but if you think like a poor man, Kerry Packer you will never become.

It's my experience that many wealthy people are actually quite happy to pay their share of taxes. I think that feeling that it's necessary to defraud the ATO to get ahead is poor man's thinking. There's enough profit out there for everybody, including the ATO.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

ianvestor, I guess the issue is that most Australians want first-world services from their government,

You're damn right I do and I don't mind in the slightest letting everyone else pay for it too!

Also, thanks for the clarification before Tracey. When's the next Brisbane meeting dealy?

Mark

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

It's my experience that many wealthy people are actually quite happy to pay their share of taxes.

You and I must spend time with completely different sets of wealthy people then.

I think that feeling that it's necessary to defraud the ATO to get ahead is poor man's thinking.

Don't agree that it's poor man's thinking, rather 'moronic' thinking. There are plenty of opportunities to reduce taxes legally, one wonders why anyone would want to risk jail by breaking the law....

There's enough profit out there for everybody, including the ATO.

This statement I strongly disagree with. Currency in any form is NOT an infinite resource. In fact, this statement is, to me, just another empty phrase spouted by self help guru's and the like to sell more product. It has no meaning and is at best a load of nonsense. There is not nearly enough profit out there for everyone.

In our society we have a certain amount of currency. That means that for one person to have a dollar, another person must miss out on that dollar. Nature dictates that the strong will always exploit the weak. I know which side of the fence I intend to be on.

Mark

 

[marg4000]

Touchy issue for me.

One daughter was seriously ill for 5 years (ages 11-16) and we received far more in specialist medical treatment and medication (try $300 for a 100 ml bottle, through Govt subsidies we paid $2.75 - 2 bottles a month!!) than we have ever paid in tax.

Thank God we live in a country that can afford great health care (Queensland public system). Yes, I know the health system has its problems, but it also achieves remarkable successes.

So I pay tax cheerfully (but no more than I have to!!).
Marg

(daughter now 30, married, baby daughter - CURED!!)