2 PPORs for married couple?

That means that for one person to have a dollar, another person must miss out on that dollar.
I'm no economist, but this doesn't pass my logic test. You're saying that the world's wealth is fixed and we can only change the way that it's distributed. I would think that's a highly controversial statement, even to the most strident opponents of a fiat currency.

Thinking about it from first principles, wealth is the excess of production over what we need to fulfil our basic needs. So in subsistence economies, all effort must be expended to feed and shelter people (and yes, of course in many countries there's not even enough to do that), and there is no "wealth". In first-world countries, because of the efficiencies obtained by technology and mass production (enabled by the trust that comes from stable governments etc), we can spend much of our time creating wealth with the labour that is freed from food production. Some is used, for example, to build nice houses, or make cars, etc. When you can feed yourselves, give everybody a house and car, and still have labour left over, then you start entering industries like tourism and entertainment, and so on. A society applies its labour first to the items on the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and as it becomes more efficient, the spare labour is applied to higher and higher order needs. Wealth is measured by how far up the hierarchy you can afford to spend your money.

When third-world countries improve the efficiency of their farming, for example, new wealth is created. There is no overall loss from that; some competitors may feel the pinch from competition etc, but the whole world is producing more than it was before and is thus wealthier. Much of the labour that was used for farming can now be used to build houses.

Putting it from the opposite perspective, if dollars are fixed, would you argue that the overall financial gains from, say, the Boxing Day tsunami outweigh the losses? Surely the destruction of so much property and labour (sorry to sound callous; this was an enormous human tragedy but I'm talking specifically from a financial perspective here) can only have decreased the world's wealth?

When somebody allows a task to be done using less labour, they add to the world's wealth. That labour can then be used to address higher-order needs. Overall, the world is wealthier.
 
Mark. All I am saying is that possibly the women you are meeting are not the "norm". Maybe you need to widen your hunting grounds a bit. I am nearly 48 and even in my dating days, NOBODY I knew was looking for a rich man to "look after them". We were all earning reasonable money and were looking for "nice" men.

I had the opportunity of going out with two "rich" men. The fact that they were rich had absolutely no bearing on how I saw them. One was an absolute tosser, and the other one was actually a very nice fellow, but just didn't "float my boat".

I think it would be an "unusual" woman who could spend her life with a man she didn't love just because he could provide material goods. I certainly could not do it. I don't know any woman who could.

I am sure there is a certain "element" out there who are after a man to look after them, but surely they are not that thick on the ground, except maybe you are hanging with the wrong crowd. My son is nearly 20 and I don't see it in his female friends either.

I am curious about just how man women you meet are searching for someone to look after them. I would have thought that in 2008 most women would be fairly independent, and many would be earning as much as the men they are dating. I wouldn't have thought that things have changed that much since I was dating.
 
Hi Wylie,

I don't think I was making myself clear. I wasn't saying all women are gold diggers looking for a rich bloke to spend all their money on her. What I mean is that women don't date/marry a man that they perceive as being on their level or below them. This goes for any social group. From cleaners right up to CEO's.

Hence the quote 'Women look in only two directions when searching for a man - up or over his shoulder'. It's not about the women I meet in my social life - the people I socialise with most are punk rockers. They're not exactly clamoring to find some rich dude with lots of cash to look after them. Not that I'm in the market anyway - I dated a bird for about ten seconds a few months back and came to the realisation that any sort of relationship was not something I want at this point in time.

This whole idea of women being independent is only a few decades old - gender roles have been in force for millenia and still exist today, the only difference is that people feel a need today to pretend it doesn't happen because it's suddenly 'discrimination'. More women today may be out in the workforce and whatnot but the fact still remains that the large majority of women want a man that they are confident can look after them.

You can't deny nature.

Mark
 
Okay Mark. I understand a little better now. I suppose also, I am thinking back to when hubby and I met. I was actually earning a little more than him, which bothered me only from the point of view that I was worried that it might bother HIM.

It didn't bother him at all. I also came from a family who had "done" IPs for several years (including myself). Hubby's family NEVER talked money, and it took a while for him to get comfortable taking rent from people. He still would give somebody the shirt off his back.

I DO worry that my sons might attract bridezillas, particularly if there are women out there who want to get their talons into a wealthy young man. We certainly don't fit into the Packer brigade, but my sons would certainly be a better "catch" than some others, so hopefully those "rich husband chasers" are thin on the ground, and don't find my boys.
 
Mate, with the serious man drought we've seen since WWII, the ladies out there should be grateful they've even got a gut to hang onto. Sloth away I say!

Man drought what man drought? Have you looked on RSVP lately? There are heaps of good looking guys putting themselves out there - some obviously quite educated, sophisticated and well off too by the looks of it (not that I'm in the market mind you - just like to know what's available he he). There seems to be a lot more desperate sounding men on that site than there are desperate sounding women, and the women sound a hell of a lot more pickier too!

I am probably one of those women that Mark talks about - while I don't want or expect anyone to look after me financially, I probably wouldn't date anyone who earnt less than me, or had less assets than me, unless it was for a short term casual hook-up. This is mostly because a lot of men's over-inflated egos can't cope with women earning more than them which leads to all sorts of self-esteem issues etc that I frankly can't be bothered dealing with.
 
This is mostly because a lot of men's over-inflated egos can't cope with women earning more than them which leads to all sorts of self-esteem issues etc that I frankly can't be bothered dealing with.

I don't belileve this is due to over inflated ego's. I think it has more to do with the perception that if a man earns less than his wife/girlfriend, then he isn't 'manning up' and taking responsibility as the main breadwinner. This can be quite embarrassing for the man in question and lead him to question himself on top of being questioned by those around him.

But I can understand your not wanting to date thse kinds of guys - I wouldn't want to date a sooky wimp either.

Mark
 
I don't belileve this is due to over inflated ego's. I think it has more to do with the perception that if a man earns less than his wife/girlfriend, then he isn't 'manning up' and taking responsibility as the main breadwinner. This can be quite embarrassing for the man in question and lead him to question himself on top of being questioned by those around him.

Mark

OK, maybe "over inflated" is not really correct. If a man dosn't feel worthy as a man because he is not the "breadwinner", then as far as I can understand it is his ego - his inner-self what makes him feel less than a man, certainly not his wife or girlfriend who probably doesn't give two hoots as long as he is a loving husband and treats her well.

I think it takes a very masculine man, someone very secure in himself and his self worth to not be bothered by his wife/girlfriend earning more than him, especially when we are still bombarded with societal messages telling us that someone's value as a man is directly related to how much they earn or what job they have, and in conjunction that a woman's value is related to her being able (and willing) to bear and raise children.

There are so many more important ways of measuring an individual's value in society than by what they earn, or whether they reproduce or not.

I know that when I'm earning the big bucks I will either not disclose my income, or lie outright if I am in a relationship where I am the higher earner.
 
Nat,

I think you know that you and I see eye to eye on a lot of issues - including this one. In my opinion, it's easy to theorise about how a man *should* respond in such situations, but it's not easy in reality. I've seen it happen - guys getting teased by mates/workmates, people looking down on them - all because the wife or girlfriend earns more. It's like telling a child who is getting bullied at school 'to just ignore them'. It's hard to ignore people that are in your face all day every day.

The comment 'Going home to your husband' is one I've overheard a number of times in relation to a guy whose wife earns more than he does. That crap isn't easy to swallow, you get me? Everyone talks about equality between the sexes in 2008, but really - when you look at society it's all a big load of rubbish. There is no equality and there never will be.

Depending on the issue being looked at, men are superior or women are superior. There is absolutely not one single issue we face where men and women are equal. Overall, I think women are a shade in front, but in five years? Who knows. It's like a see saw. Feminism took a stranglehold over a forty year time span (between 1960 and 2000 or thereabouts) but over the last few years men have started to resist. MRA's are beginning to slowly but surely claw back ground. Which I think is a good thing.

So we'll see what happens in the future. But I do know that underneath it all, gender roles are still alive and well and kicking on strong. You can't deny what comes naturally.

Mark
 
We definately see eye to eye on this issue. I just think it is such a shame that men are made to feel inferior by their mates and society in general if they earn less than their wives, no matter that they might be the best husband or person in the world in every other way, or have a job that is much more important than their high earning wives.

This is probably a strong reason why high earning women have trouble finding partners. Would you agree that many men would baulk at dating a woman they suspect earns more than them? For example a male teacher dating a female lawyer or doctor?

Another great reason for couples to keep all or part of their finances seperate I think - what the bloke dosn't know won't hurt him...

P.S - if a bloke earns less than his wife/girlfriend why on earth would he tell his mates in the first place?
 
Yeah I don't have a problem with a situation where the woman earns more than the man. Having said that, I probably wouldn't maintain a long term relationship with a woman who earned more than I did. As far as men baulking at dating a woman that earns more - I dunno. I think it definitely is a major issue for many men, but the issue itself shouldn't be laid purely at the men's feet or have them labelled as having 'fragile male ego's'.

Using your example, I doubt you'd see many couples lasting in a long term relationship where the woman earns more or has a perceived higher 'ranking' job than the husband. As I've stated earlier - women tend to look in two directions when looking for a prospective mate - up or over his shoulder (hence the reason why I wouldn't date a woman who had a perceived higher value than me - it's doomed to fail from the beginning). I believe a perfect example of this is when you posted that 90% of divorces in which the woman is in an executive position are initiated by the woman. A great example of this has been played out on this very forum.

I really think this speaks volumes. You have a situation where the husband and wife meet, get married, he's in a middle management role, she's climbing the ladder. For whatever reason, she moves forward whereas he doesn't get as far. She starts to mix with men that are higher value than her husband, even though he's been by her side and supportive the whole way. Eventually she stops resisting her urge to trade up and dumps him for someone else. She's making plenty of money, but she still wants a man who can look after her. This type of thinking is not the exception, it's the norm. Women want men to look after them, it's as simple as that.

Now before all y'all ladies go 'But men do the same thing, except they dump their wives for younger women!' Yeah, but the statistics speak loud and clear don't they - for every one man that does it, nine women do the same thing.

So getting back to the original point, it could very well be that it's not so much a situation of fragile mens' ego's (although resentment on the male's part is definitely a factor) but women factoring in their ability to 'do better' in the man stakes as they become more successful. There is definitely more of an even split here rather than it being skewed more to one side than the other.

Mark
 
I probably wouldn't maintain a long term relationship with a woman who earned more than I did.

And I probably would have trouble maintaining a relationship with a man who earned much less, or had a lower ranking job than I do, or is less educated than I am. A bit of rough is all well and good, but you don't want it to hang around for too long.

I really think this speaks volumes. You have a situation where the husband and wife meet, get married, he's in a middle management role, she's climbing the ladder. For whatever reason, she moves forward whereas he doesn't get as far. She starts to mix with men that are higher value than her husband, even though he's been by her side and supportive the whole way. Eventually she stops resisting her urge to trade up and dumps him for someone else. She's making plenty of money, but she still wants a man who can look after her. This type of thinking is not the exception, it's the norm. Women want men to look after them, it's as simple as that.

True, however, by the time the wife is thinking about trading in her middle management hubby for a higher ranking man, many have had who knows how many affairs with younger, lower ranking women in order to appease his ego. While the percentage of women who initiate divorce is higher, the percentage of men who have affairs within the marriage with no intention of leaving is higher than women who do the same.
 
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While the percentage of women who initiate divorce is higher, the percentage of men who have affairs within the marriage with no intention of leaving is higher than women who do the same.

Yeah totally! But see, the thing is these guys are stupid enough to believe that if they're careful they won't get caught, but smart enough to know that if they initiate divorce, they're gonna get bent over.

I don't meet many guys in their 30 & 40's or older who advise getting married.

Mark
 
I don't meet many guys in their 30 & 40's or older who advise getting married.

Mark

You've got that right, especially if they have 2 ex wives and a handful of kids to pay for.

Sorry to highjack your interlude but Mark you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. There are many successful corporate women in their 30s who own their own PPORs but have to sleep alone at night. Unfortunately their intellect counterpart males whom they work with are either interested in the tall, blond, big knockers, submissive types or are gay. Where the partnership is with a male on an equal intellect, its probably cos the bloke can't get the former. It really is an uphill battle for the ladies.
 
So unfortunately true, although I have met/worked with many successful divorced men who were looking for an intellectual equal, a woman who was successful in her own right and who could be a true partner in their relationship.
I have also been asked out by heaps of guys who were below me in earnings and education, so maybe there are some blokes out there who really don't care if their wives/girlfriends earn more or have a higher ranking job.

Again, have a peek at the older age groups on RSVP - divorced/seperated men, many who are in senior management and have children, who are not looking for the stereotypical young, hot bimbo but who are seeking older women - some even specify that they are seeking women who are professionals or in management themselves. Unfortunately, most of these guys specify they are looking for women older than 40, so I can't apply ;)
 
As in all areas of life, there are always exceptions. You're gonna get the female corporate executive who will always be looking to 'trade up' but you're also gonna get the female who is happy to maintain a relationship with a man who makes less than she does and isn't in as 'sexy' a career as she has.

On the other side of the coin, you've got men who will trade up to a newer model of wife/girlfriend every couple of years, but you also have the guy who wants intellectual stimulation from his partner and looks come second.

Me? I want a mix of both - someone who is pleasing to the eye who can actually hold a conversation. I have zero tolerance for stupid people and try to avoid interaction with them as much as possible. The problem is finding a lady who can stimulate me both visually and intellectually. I like punk rockers mostly, so it's not exactly easy to find someone who has an interest in investing or financial freedom, lol.

I know what y'all are thinking - spread your wings - and I do! But I likes what I likes and if I have to choose between being single and content or being in a relationship and unsatisfied, I'm take the former every time.

Mark
 
It really is an uphill battle for the ladies.

I agree with you there to a certain extent. It's an uphill battle for single women in their 30's. I don't often hear about it in real life, but in the media there seems to be a growing number of women in their 30's lamenting the 'man shortage'. That is, they want to settle down and have kids and whatnot, but can't find a man.

So herein lies the problem. A lot of these birds in their 20's partied and had a good time and because they could pick and choose who they wanted, left a lot of guys hanging. A lot of guys, who possibly through inexperience, were wanting to marry and have children. But these chicks were having too much fun and weren't interested in that.

Fast forward a decade...

So now these women are in their 30's and the biological clock is ticking and they want children NOW. Problem is, they don't have a man because they haven't cultivated any sort of serious relationship. So now they see a whole bunch of (single) guys also in their 30's whom they try and strike up a spark with. But these guys have long memories.... They're the guys that these women wouldn't even look at twice a few years ago. Now all of a sudden, because the women want a baby, these guys are worthy.

See, the thing is, these guys worked hard, built careers and now are moderately successful. They've got money to burn and are willing to flash it around a little. Go to any inner city or inner suburbs high end pub on a Friday after work if you don't believe me. So of course, the new 20-something set of hotties is showing them a lot of love. Just like all those women in their 30's did in their 20's.

So the women in their 30's are trying to attract the attention of the guys in their 30's (who still remember how these women gave them the finger a few years back), but the guys are looking over in the corner at that hot young thing with legs up to her neck who's giving him the eye and fobbing off the 30-something. I mean, who can blame them? How many guys, given the option are gonna choose to settle down with a woman their age who wants kids or the sexy little minx in her 20's who is willing to - and can - do all sorts of crazy things.

Mark
 
On the other side of the coin, you've got men who will trade up to a newer model of wife/girlfriend every couple of years, but you also have the guy who wants intellectual stimulation from his partner and looks come second.

So what you're saying is that a woman can't be intellectual and attractive? Are you kidding? I have seen so many obviously successful career women in their 30's and 40's who are extremely good looking, confident and sexy and I'm sure there are plenty of hot young chicks who are interested in a wide variety of intellectual topics and can hold a conversation about more than what happened last night on Home and Away.

I'm sure you are right about the inner city pub scene on a Friday, I don't tend to hang out there much as I don't work in the city ATM. From the few times I did go to these pubs I would guess that the guys in their 30's who are enjoying an after work drink and perve are probably already married with a kid or two anyway - certainly the guys I worked with were, so those women in their 30's are probably wasting their time.

How many guys, given the option are gonna choose to settle down with a woman their age who wants kids or the sexy little minx in her 20's who is willing to - and can - do all sorts of crazy things.

You'd be surprised I think. The answer to that is obviously dependent on what each individual man wants. If a man is at the stage where he wants to settle down and have a family he will chose a woman who is able to provide that, one he has something in common with, who he can spend night after night after night with, who will be happy staying at home with him and the kids instead of going out with her besties and who will be a good mother.

I would hazard a guess that many divorces/separations occur because the man has picked the minx to be the mother of his children, not the successful older woman who wants the same, so he suffers when she realises she dosn't want to waste the pretty staying at home when she could be out with her girlfriends partying and chasing hot single guys and leaves him.
 
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