From: Mike .
Hi Folks,
Over the last couple of weeks we've been fortunate to read a few peoples personal stories about their experiences so far with their property investments. Another good one has come to light on the UK Singing Pig site: http://groups.msn.com/SingingPig/messageboard.msnw
Lisa Orme has been a regular and prolific poster on a number of sites over the last couple of years. I asked her for permission to re-post this on our forum because to my recollection there has never been a post like this on our forum. It contains many good pointers so I'm sure you will get something from reading this.
Regards, Mike
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
Lea (from Housemouse) asked me to write a diary for her website a while ago and I had half written it and got too busy but after the support I received I thought it would be a nice way to say thanks so she will be putting it on her site soon. So I thought you guys on here might like to read it too. A few people commented on how they like the real life stuff - Lea's post went down well with her 'deal as it happens' so I hope you like this.
A Day in the Life of ……. Lisa
This was a particularly busy day from a couple of weeks ago. The reason I decided to add it to Lea’s site is because I see so many people ask how do they get properties and in particular those empty or scruffy ones we all see in every street.
Got up at 2 am to listen to a US tele-conference with Robert Allen on goal setting and motivation.
Back to bed.
6 am – alarm went off – sun shining – good day to go out and about!
In the office (luckily its at home) by 7:30 am.
Check my e-mails and reply to a few – three from Australia, one from America, eight from some twit who seems to have me on his virus list (free consultation to anyone who knows how to get rid of them – thank god for Norton!) and a number for the business.
I had my first property viewing at 10 am in Coventry. Drove over – got stuck in traffic and arrived about five minutes late – agent had already left!!! I called agency and he came back as he was only up the road. Empty property – the artex on the walls was so thick I reckon the rooms were at least a foot bigger than the details!
Tip:- this is actually from my dad who has been a decorator for 40 years – original artex formulas (we’re not talking plaster that is swirled and made to look like artex – we’re talking original artex products) are often made with asbestos based ingredients. Especially the older varieties and ex local authority properties – bear this in mind when viewing: -
1) you may need to have it properly removed at great cost
2) it could help you negotiate a good discount!
It needed a lot of work. I sat in the car, few quick calculations and made an offer anyway. Up for £69,950. I offered £60k. Agent said she’d contact me later. I called two days later and they were still dithering about the offer – I said I had seen an alternative property later that day and had also made an offer – I would only be taking one. They accepted my offer a week later but I had already been accepted on the other one and decided not to do both. I saved £16k on the other one!
I then went to see some new developers then decided to do a bit of driving around to see what I could find.
I’d had my eye on this one property for about a year. It’s a lovely very good sized double bayed semi detached on a large corner plot – terribly neglected and had been convinced for ages no one lived in it. Last year I did a search on Land Registry Direct and got the owners name – it was at the same address. If it’s empty that tends to indicate a deceased estate which can be a nightmare to track down. I wrote him a letter but to no avail. This time I decided I’d knock on the neighbours house. I was in luck, as I pulled up the neighbour was getting the kids out the car and then I noticed a light on in the property out of the corner of my eye. So I went and knocked – no answer. I knocked again all the time having a good old nose round. Then this guy came to the door – I think he was Roy Cropper’s missing twin brother! If you don’t watch Corrie ignore that one!
I told him I’d seen his property for a while and I just loved it – I told him what a great position it was in and dropped in that I’d love to buy it.
Tip: - don’t put it down no matter how bad it is at this stage – it’s their home after all. Once they agree they want to sell or if its with an agent then you can be more critical to get the price down. I tend to be a bit two faced being complimentary with the sellers and more critique with the agent.
I don’t suppose you’re thinking of selling are you? I said
Actually I am, he replied. It’s too big for me now as I’m on my own and I don’t have time to look after it. Would you buy it he said?
Of course, I said and we can talk about a multitude of ways to buy it – whether you want the cash, an income or both we can sort something out.
I reminded him again of what great potential it would have in the right hands and he said that would be nice to see it returned to its best. I gave him my card and told him I would give him time to think about it as it was a big decision. I said he could call me anytime otherwise I would drop him a line again in a week or so.
I have his details already so a letter is on its way to him – I’ll let you know if I buy it.
While walking back to my car I spotted another potential opportunity over the road. Two houses up for sale next door to each other. One looked a right state and the other pretty good – great comparison I thought. I crossed the road and had a look round – the poor one was very poor – terrible condition. The other one looked pretty good – refurbished and both were empty.
I called the agent for the good one first – it had been refurbed completely by a builder who lived in it while doing it up. He’s now selling – two bed terrace for £81,500. The agent told me it had been on the market for a week and they hadn’t had many enquiries – he said he was surprised as it was really well refurbed and in a popular location. I told him the only way I knew it was up for sale was because I’d spotted next doors board and their board was in fact lying against the house – we joked that I shouldn’t be telling him this so as to keep the other buyers away and he thanked me profusely for telling him – he took my details and said he’d get back to me with some more opportunities – touché!
I then called the agent for the rough one – they wanted £55k – deceased estate and the son was selling. There seemed like room for manoeuvre but depended upon the work required. I asked for a viewing but they were only doing block viewings/open house the next day so I booked in.
As an aside, I went along the next day to discover the roof had completely gone and both floors had caved in, the bathroom and kitchen were non existent, it needed completely gutting. I told the agent about next door and told him if they brought it under £40k I’d be interested. He said the price had been set by the former owners son not the agent! As it turns out it sold a few days later for nearly £75k!!!!! This is a property that requires considerable work and at best will sell for £85k – has the World gone mad?
Tip: - This is why it is so important to do your homework and not get personally involved – its business. Stick to your limit as much with agent sales as with auctions.
Off I drove again. I had a contact tell me about a property going cheap in a good area of Coventry – semi’s typically £100-120k. This one was going for £70k. I had a drive by and it looked in great condition. I called the agent – no board interestingly. It turns out the estate agent is selling it himself – always rings alarm bells that one especially if its cheap. He was upfront with me and told me there had been some subsidence next door in 1979 and when next door was underpinned this property suffered a small crack but no movement since. The inside needing a god refurb and the agent couldn’t be bothered to do it so was looking for a quick cash sale.
Tip:- Large parts of Coventry are built on mining areas, like much of the Midlands. When buying in these areas always insist on mining searches.
I’m still considering this one and several weeks on it is still up for sale. I may well get my builder to take a look with me and as time goes on my offer (lower of course) will look more attractive.
I then drove by another house I’ve had my eye on. Opposite a school, near some shops, good location but terrible condition. Land Registry shows no registration so probably an older person.
It has clearly been broken into and is not lived in at present. I was going to knock on doors but in preparation I grabbed some business cards.
Tip: - not only do I have my company ones but I have had some made; the first say ‘We Buy Houses’ with contact details etc on and the reasons why they should sell privately (to me!) The second cards offer £250 to anyone who supplies me with information that leads to my purchasing the property.
I knocked on one side and no answer so popped my cards through the door. I also popped them through the door of the property itself. I knocked the other side and a lady answered – had a good long chat with her. Perfect for property people – a real busy body, lovely with it, knew everyone and everything. She told me an old lady had lived there for years and had gone into a home so she had let the property out through an agent. She said that a repair/maintenance man used to come every few months and carry out minor repairs however he found it hard to keep on top of the property as it really required a complete overhaul. Eventually he stopped coming. Then the tenants moved out and the agent refused to let it anymore as it was so bad. Now it stands empty. She didn’t know the name of the old lady or where she was, she didn’t know the agent either but described their offices to me as she had been there herself to complain about the state of the garden. I knew which one she meant so off I went to see them.
The property was no longer listed on their files but they kindly offered to search through their archives. They have since contacted me and I have put the offer through to the agent for the property. They are also an estate agent as well as a letting agent so I have offered a small fee to them. They couldn’t strictly speaking charge the lady a fee as I found the property by my own means, furthermore she may not be able to afford it and would be put off. So I felt I stood more chance of getting it if I had the agent on side.
Will keep you posted on this one.
I then spotted another property with a private board outside – not many private sales in the UK especially with boards so I always look at those. Called the number and agreed a viewing in an hour. Went to see a couple of local agents to see what was going and then went back to the private sale property. Nice extended semi, needed a decorating job but lovely kitchen, lots of potential. I had a chat with the owner.
Tip: - Always try to determine the motivation of the seller even when speaking to an agent. Why are they moving, how desperate are they, financial difficulties, family troubles, job move etc. This can help you identify whether a low price is feasible and whether some creative financing could be achieved.
In this instance the owner had no mortgage, he and his new wife were both selling their respective properties to buy somewhere much larger and more expensive. With no mortgage this means that they wouldn’t be that desperate to sell however I could tell that she didn’t like living in what used to be his parents home. She clearly wanted a place of her/their own and would probably nag him until it was so sold so it still offered some potential. I offered them the full asking price if we could do a deal on the deposit. They were really interested especially as no mortgage company involved. They said they would see how much interest they got as I was the first one to view – if they didn’t get offers near to asking they would definitely be in touch. Its still up for sale so who knows….
I returned to the office mid afternoon. Caught up on my e-mails, made some forum posts and wrote a few letters. I spent the rest of the day writing some business plans and goals.
I just thought I’d let you know to what lengths I will go to for property – this next property I have had my eye on for years. I didn’t do anything with it on this particular day but it fits in with the theme. I used to live just around the corner and it’s been empty for as long as I’ve known. Large corner semi. Properties fetch around £120k. This was is in such a state even the squatters moved out!!
I did a Land Registry search and it came up with the name of a lady but at the same address – as I mentioned before often a deceased estate. However, on the title deeds I did notice that a gentleman of the same name had previously been on the title but no longer, furthermore a solicitor in the area was cited as having a caution on the property – very interesting! I put two and two together and decided it was a divorce – the lady had been left the property in settlement and had abandoned it. Now, I contacted the solicitor who sounded mighty cheesed off. They had been contacted many, many times over the years and would not forward anything to the lady in question regarding selling the property and they certainly would not pass on her details. In the heat of the moment they said they couldn’t anyway as she had emigrated to Australia but they didn’t know where.
That was my key – I contacted my friend in Sydney. I took a gamble that she was there – after all most Brits end up in Sydney!! He looked in the directory and there was her name – it was very unusual and she had a double barrelled forename so I was convinced it was her. I got her telephone number and gave her a call. It was indeed her house – she had been left it by her husband when they divorced but she didn’t want to live in it and emigrated with her children.
However, she had given the property to her brother who was supposed to be doing it up. She had no idea it was in such a state and would contact him. I said I wanted to buy it and she said if here brother decided not to keep it she would get him to contact me – he’s in London. I took some photos and sent them to her with a letter and a photocopy of a blank cheque made out for a cash sum to pay for the house. I said I would pay for all legals, etc and write the original cheque out to whoever she wanted me to.
I contacted the solicitor again and told them she had given the property to her brother who would be refurbing it – they were very grateful and said they could now tell people it was not available for sale. That should throw a few people off the scent!
She has told me her brother still wants it but it remains in its ever-deteriorating state so I still wait – you just never know.
As you can see I tend to target the more unusual. Well, not so much unusual but I don’t only walk into my local agents and ask what they have.
I believe that in hot markets especially when properties reach the agents the deal has gone. They do have people in their pockets – I’m lucky to have a few on side but at the end of the day they are paid by the seller not the buyer and it is in their best interest as well as the agents to get as high a price as possible. How would you feel if you hired an agent and he sold your property to a mate at £20k under value for a backhander! I’ve dished out my own criticism of the short sightedness of agents in this market but we all make hay while the sun shines.
Now I may do lots of door knocking and speak to lots of people and who knows how many of these come off but even if none of them do I’ve dropped a few cards through doors; people call and say their aunt, sister, granny wants to sell and will they still get their £250 if I buy? I get to know the areas and the properties, you get all sorts of gossip – did you know the schools closing down, did you know all those houses are going and a new estate of luxury flats is being built, etc etc.
If I do get a deal it’s icing on the cake – the seller has saved time, hassle and agency fees all of which are taken into account with my price and I have a private deal. With private deals you can do all sorts of creative financing when there are no agents in the way.
Therefore, my motto is: -
1) Do it better than everyone else
Or
2) Do it different to everyone else
If you can do both then great.
In this market you have to do it different and I think one way is to spot opportunities before they are even up for sale. Get to the people before they even know they want to sell. As Sir John Harvey Jones once said ‘None of us realised we needed a ‘Walkman’ until one existed!!’
Kind regards, Lisa
Hi Folks,
Over the last couple of weeks we've been fortunate to read a few peoples personal stories about their experiences so far with their property investments. Another good one has come to light on the UK Singing Pig site: http://groups.msn.com/SingingPig/messageboard.msnw
Lisa Orme has been a regular and prolific poster on a number of sites over the last couple of years. I asked her for permission to re-post this on our forum because to my recollection there has never been a post like this on our forum. It contains many good pointers so I'm sure you will get something from reading this.
Regards, Mike
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
Lea (from Housemouse) asked me to write a diary for her website a while ago and I had half written it and got too busy but after the support I received I thought it would be a nice way to say thanks so she will be putting it on her site soon. So I thought you guys on here might like to read it too. A few people commented on how they like the real life stuff - Lea's post went down well with her 'deal as it happens' so I hope you like this.
A Day in the Life of ……. Lisa
This was a particularly busy day from a couple of weeks ago. The reason I decided to add it to Lea’s site is because I see so many people ask how do they get properties and in particular those empty or scruffy ones we all see in every street.
Got up at 2 am to listen to a US tele-conference with Robert Allen on goal setting and motivation.
Back to bed.
6 am – alarm went off – sun shining – good day to go out and about!
In the office (luckily its at home) by 7:30 am.
Check my e-mails and reply to a few – three from Australia, one from America, eight from some twit who seems to have me on his virus list (free consultation to anyone who knows how to get rid of them – thank god for Norton!) and a number for the business.
I had my first property viewing at 10 am in Coventry. Drove over – got stuck in traffic and arrived about five minutes late – agent had already left!!! I called agency and he came back as he was only up the road. Empty property – the artex on the walls was so thick I reckon the rooms were at least a foot bigger than the details!
Tip:- this is actually from my dad who has been a decorator for 40 years – original artex formulas (we’re not talking plaster that is swirled and made to look like artex – we’re talking original artex products) are often made with asbestos based ingredients. Especially the older varieties and ex local authority properties – bear this in mind when viewing: -
1) you may need to have it properly removed at great cost
2) it could help you negotiate a good discount!
It needed a lot of work. I sat in the car, few quick calculations and made an offer anyway. Up for £69,950. I offered £60k. Agent said she’d contact me later. I called two days later and they were still dithering about the offer – I said I had seen an alternative property later that day and had also made an offer – I would only be taking one. They accepted my offer a week later but I had already been accepted on the other one and decided not to do both. I saved £16k on the other one!
I then went to see some new developers then decided to do a bit of driving around to see what I could find.
I’d had my eye on this one property for about a year. It’s a lovely very good sized double bayed semi detached on a large corner plot – terribly neglected and had been convinced for ages no one lived in it. Last year I did a search on Land Registry Direct and got the owners name – it was at the same address. If it’s empty that tends to indicate a deceased estate which can be a nightmare to track down. I wrote him a letter but to no avail. This time I decided I’d knock on the neighbours house. I was in luck, as I pulled up the neighbour was getting the kids out the car and then I noticed a light on in the property out of the corner of my eye. So I went and knocked – no answer. I knocked again all the time having a good old nose round. Then this guy came to the door – I think he was Roy Cropper’s missing twin brother! If you don’t watch Corrie ignore that one!
I told him I’d seen his property for a while and I just loved it – I told him what a great position it was in and dropped in that I’d love to buy it.
Tip: - don’t put it down no matter how bad it is at this stage – it’s their home after all. Once they agree they want to sell or if its with an agent then you can be more critical to get the price down. I tend to be a bit two faced being complimentary with the sellers and more critique with the agent.
I don’t suppose you’re thinking of selling are you? I said
Actually I am, he replied. It’s too big for me now as I’m on my own and I don’t have time to look after it. Would you buy it he said?
Of course, I said and we can talk about a multitude of ways to buy it – whether you want the cash, an income or both we can sort something out.
I reminded him again of what great potential it would have in the right hands and he said that would be nice to see it returned to its best. I gave him my card and told him I would give him time to think about it as it was a big decision. I said he could call me anytime otherwise I would drop him a line again in a week or so.
I have his details already so a letter is on its way to him – I’ll let you know if I buy it.
While walking back to my car I spotted another potential opportunity over the road. Two houses up for sale next door to each other. One looked a right state and the other pretty good – great comparison I thought. I crossed the road and had a look round – the poor one was very poor – terrible condition. The other one looked pretty good – refurbished and both were empty.
I called the agent for the good one first – it had been refurbed completely by a builder who lived in it while doing it up. He’s now selling – two bed terrace for £81,500. The agent told me it had been on the market for a week and they hadn’t had many enquiries – he said he was surprised as it was really well refurbed and in a popular location. I told him the only way I knew it was up for sale was because I’d spotted next doors board and their board was in fact lying against the house – we joked that I shouldn’t be telling him this so as to keep the other buyers away and he thanked me profusely for telling him – he took my details and said he’d get back to me with some more opportunities – touché!
I then called the agent for the rough one – they wanted £55k – deceased estate and the son was selling. There seemed like room for manoeuvre but depended upon the work required. I asked for a viewing but they were only doing block viewings/open house the next day so I booked in.
As an aside, I went along the next day to discover the roof had completely gone and both floors had caved in, the bathroom and kitchen were non existent, it needed completely gutting. I told the agent about next door and told him if they brought it under £40k I’d be interested. He said the price had been set by the former owners son not the agent! As it turns out it sold a few days later for nearly £75k!!!!! This is a property that requires considerable work and at best will sell for £85k – has the World gone mad?
Tip: - This is why it is so important to do your homework and not get personally involved – its business. Stick to your limit as much with agent sales as with auctions.
Off I drove again. I had a contact tell me about a property going cheap in a good area of Coventry – semi’s typically £100-120k. This one was going for £70k. I had a drive by and it looked in great condition. I called the agent – no board interestingly. It turns out the estate agent is selling it himself – always rings alarm bells that one especially if its cheap. He was upfront with me and told me there had been some subsidence next door in 1979 and when next door was underpinned this property suffered a small crack but no movement since. The inside needing a god refurb and the agent couldn’t be bothered to do it so was looking for a quick cash sale.
Tip:- Large parts of Coventry are built on mining areas, like much of the Midlands. When buying in these areas always insist on mining searches.
I’m still considering this one and several weeks on it is still up for sale. I may well get my builder to take a look with me and as time goes on my offer (lower of course) will look more attractive.
I then drove by another house I’ve had my eye on. Opposite a school, near some shops, good location but terrible condition. Land Registry shows no registration so probably an older person.
It has clearly been broken into and is not lived in at present. I was going to knock on doors but in preparation I grabbed some business cards.
Tip: - not only do I have my company ones but I have had some made; the first say ‘We Buy Houses’ with contact details etc on and the reasons why they should sell privately (to me!) The second cards offer £250 to anyone who supplies me with information that leads to my purchasing the property.
I knocked on one side and no answer so popped my cards through the door. I also popped them through the door of the property itself. I knocked the other side and a lady answered – had a good long chat with her. Perfect for property people – a real busy body, lovely with it, knew everyone and everything. She told me an old lady had lived there for years and had gone into a home so she had let the property out through an agent. She said that a repair/maintenance man used to come every few months and carry out minor repairs however he found it hard to keep on top of the property as it really required a complete overhaul. Eventually he stopped coming. Then the tenants moved out and the agent refused to let it anymore as it was so bad. Now it stands empty. She didn’t know the name of the old lady or where she was, she didn’t know the agent either but described their offices to me as she had been there herself to complain about the state of the garden. I knew which one she meant so off I went to see them.
The property was no longer listed on their files but they kindly offered to search through their archives. They have since contacted me and I have put the offer through to the agent for the property. They are also an estate agent as well as a letting agent so I have offered a small fee to them. They couldn’t strictly speaking charge the lady a fee as I found the property by my own means, furthermore she may not be able to afford it and would be put off. So I felt I stood more chance of getting it if I had the agent on side.
Will keep you posted on this one.
I then spotted another property with a private board outside – not many private sales in the UK especially with boards so I always look at those. Called the number and agreed a viewing in an hour. Went to see a couple of local agents to see what was going and then went back to the private sale property. Nice extended semi, needed a decorating job but lovely kitchen, lots of potential. I had a chat with the owner.
Tip: - Always try to determine the motivation of the seller even when speaking to an agent. Why are they moving, how desperate are they, financial difficulties, family troubles, job move etc. This can help you identify whether a low price is feasible and whether some creative financing could be achieved.
In this instance the owner had no mortgage, he and his new wife were both selling their respective properties to buy somewhere much larger and more expensive. With no mortgage this means that they wouldn’t be that desperate to sell however I could tell that she didn’t like living in what used to be his parents home. She clearly wanted a place of her/their own and would probably nag him until it was so sold so it still offered some potential. I offered them the full asking price if we could do a deal on the deposit. They were really interested especially as no mortgage company involved. They said they would see how much interest they got as I was the first one to view – if they didn’t get offers near to asking they would definitely be in touch. Its still up for sale so who knows….
I returned to the office mid afternoon. Caught up on my e-mails, made some forum posts and wrote a few letters. I spent the rest of the day writing some business plans and goals.
I just thought I’d let you know to what lengths I will go to for property – this next property I have had my eye on for years. I didn’t do anything with it on this particular day but it fits in with the theme. I used to live just around the corner and it’s been empty for as long as I’ve known. Large corner semi. Properties fetch around £120k. This was is in such a state even the squatters moved out!!
I did a Land Registry search and it came up with the name of a lady but at the same address – as I mentioned before often a deceased estate. However, on the title deeds I did notice that a gentleman of the same name had previously been on the title but no longer, furthermore a solicitor in the area was cited as having a caution on the property – very interesting! I put two and two together and decided it was a divorce – the lady had been left the property in settlement and had abandoned it. Now, I contacted the solicitor who sounded mighty cheesed off. They had been contacted many, many times over the years and would not forward anything to the lady in question regarding selling the property and they certainly would not pass on her details. In the heat of the moment they said they couldn’t anyway as she had emigrated to Australia but they didn’t know where.
That was my key – I contacted my friend in Sydney. I took a gamble that she was there – after all most Brits end up in Sydney!! He looked in the directory and there was her name – it was very unusual and she had a double barrelled forename so I was convinced it was her. I got her telephone number and gave her a call. It was indeed her house – she had been left it by her husband when they divorced but she didn’t want to live in it and emigrated with her children.
However, she had given the property to her brother who was supposed to be doing it up. She had no idea it was in such a state and would contact him. I said I wanted to buy it and she said if here brother decided not to keep it she would get him to contact me – he’s in London. I took some photos and sent them to her with a letter and a photocopy of a blank cheque made out for a cash sum to pay for the house. I said I would pay for all legals, etc and write the original cheque out to whoever she wanted me to.
I contacted the solicitor again and told them she had given the property to her brother who would be refurbing it – they were very grateful and said they could now tell people it was not available for sale. That should throw a few people off the scent!
She has told me her brother still wants it but it remains in its ever-deteriorating state so I still wait – you just never know.
As you can see I tend to target the more unusual. Well, not so much unusual but I don’t only walk into my local agents and ask what they have.
I believe that in hot markets especially when properties reach the agents the deal has gone. They do have people in their pockets – I’m lucky to have a few on side but at the end of the day they are paid by the seller not the buyer and it is in their best interest as well as the agents to get as high a price as possible. How would you feel if you hired an agent and he sold your property to a mate at £20k under value for a backhander! I’ve dished out my own criticism of the short sightedness of agents in this market but we all make hay while the sun shines.
Now I may do lots of door knocking and speak to lots of people and who knows how many of these come off but even if none of them do I’ve dropped a few cards through doors; people call and say their aunt, sister, granny wants to sell and will they still get their £250 if I buy? I get to know the areas and the properties, you get all sorts of gossip – did you know the schools closing down, did you know all those houses are going and a new estate of luxury flats is being built, etc etc.
If I do get a deal it’s icing on the cake – the seller has saved time, hassle and agency fees all of which are taken into account with my price and I have a private deal. With private deals you can do all sorts of creative financing when there are no agents in the way.
Therefore, my motto is: -
1) Do it better than everyone else
Or
2) Do it different to everyone else
If you can do both then great.
In this market you have to do it different and I think one way is to spot opportunities before they are even up for sale. Get to the people before they even know they want to sell. As Sir John Harvey Jones once said ‘None of us realised we needed a ‘Walkman’ until one existed!!’
Kind regards, Lisa
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