A General Rant about Block Sizes and Ugly Housing Estates

[MishMash]

As someone looking to buy their first home in the next few months, it is quite depressing seeing the shrinking block sizes that seem to be the norm these days.

My parents bought their first acre for their first home in 1990 for $34,000. Their second home in which we currently live is also on an acre, which cost around $134,000 6/7 years ago. Similar blocks in our area now go for $600,000 plus Considering my budget is around the $250,000 mark the most i can afford is a cardboard box.

I have been looking at land and am horrified at the prices for such small parcels of land. $259,000 for a 450sqm block in an average area 2202sqm blocks in the same area are over $550,000

In one of the trendy estates nearby they are selling TINY TINY TINY parcels of land for such amazing prices...i just can't fathom who would want to live on such blocks, where your neighbours are but 1m away from your fence. Yet apparently, the majority of people DO want to live in such estates as each time such land is released, it is snapped up so quickly.

A new estate near my current residence, entitled 'Park Central' fills me with disgust every time i drive past. Block sizes here are miniscule and prices are skyhigh. The people have no backyards, just room for a clothesline albeit a fold up one because even a hills hoist is too big for the backyards there. Once you have stepped out your back door in this estate, if you stretch out your arm you will be touching the back fence.

Between houses, you would be lucky if you have 1m of space. The streets are narrow and should there be two cars trying to pass each other, one car would need to drive through someones 'front yard' (if you can call it a front yard) and mow down the letterbox before they could pass through.

There is no room for trees, when viewing Park Central from afar, one can see only rooftops (which are painted a putrid grey colour) and not a hint of any TREES. How is this environment sustainable? Oh, say the developers, but we put in a PARKLAND in the middle of the estate. This is true, if one classes a swamp-like lake, masses of dead grass and a few sickly looking trees as a Parkland.

How depressing. It will only get worse, when the new Bringelly development commences. Bringelly will be based upon the Park Central model, which i am assuming means no trees or greenery of any sort, large houses on blocks just barely big enough to accommodate them, houses so close together that you can see directly into your neighbour's bathroom and a general lack of foresight with regards to infrastructure. Bringelly will be yet another example of DIPNR (state planning authority) & the local govt authority's lack of vision.

Blair Athol is another shining example of the genius that is DIPNR and Campbelltown City Council. Once a beautiful period house surrounded by open land, Blair Athol can now just barely be seen amongst the huge brick McMansions that surround it. Once again, not a tree in sight. The Councillors just recently admitted 'Oops, we stuffed up with Blair Athol'. Yet history repeats itself with Park ('Krap') Central.

I wonder where the children play in Park Central. Certainly not in their backyards, since they have none. I hope they don't play in the 'parklands' because 1. They would probably catch something from the murky, mosquito infested water and 2. Junkies cut through the 'parklands' to access the needle exchange program at the hospital.

Does anyone else feel depressed about the future of housing in NSW? Discuss.

 

[geoffw]

I live on a very large block (2400 sqm). I love the freedom it gives- I can turn music up loud, and have the kids practice trumpets without neighbours objecting.

But I've barely landscaped anything- it's a mess outside, and I'm not a person who worries about that (it is a battleaxe block). That detracts from the value.

I had imagined that it would be a kids wonderland- but they've barely used the space outside. Kids spend so much time at their computers now- and when they do go outside, it's more for organised sports activities.

 

[duncan_m]

I wonder where the children play in Park Central.

I wonder where the Blokes will play.. the garages (which barely fit cars) seem to end up filling with junk.. the cars get left outside.. there's no room for anything more than little garden sheds.. No room to tinker with an old car, no room to have a beer fridge and no space for a bench to pull apart the mower.

 

[geoffw]

So older properties on larger blocks will be in demand?

 

[see_change]

Mish Mash

I think places like Cambelltown are the places that will suffer the most in the current Sydney slump.

It hasn't happened yet , but I'll be suprised if it doesn't. Mile on mile of blocks with no differentiating factors at prices that people are struggling to pay for at todays low interest rates. Things might get very nasty.

See Change

 

[Pete]

Hi MishMash,

I see similar things here in Perth, particularly subdivision of large lots in older suburbs.

In recent years there has been much subdivision of older inner city blocks and the common old quarter acre (~1,012m²) blocks with family homes are changing to duplex or triplex blocks. No backyards. No front yards. Paving so there is no grass at all. Virtually no eaves on the new houses either. And, forget the metre clearance to the fence, some are built flush to the boundary! At least the streets are chain (~20m) width so there is room for cars to pass.

Last year I visited Brisbane and caught the suburban train towards Ferny Grove. My mind was ticking over looking at all the quarter acre blocks backing onto the train line - Windsor which is close in, Alderley, Mitchelton, Enoggera, etc., etc. No shortage of room in those backyards for a game of "test" cricket! The space looked excessive; though a few years ago that was generally the only block size.

After seeing the "postage stamp" lots created in Perth these Brisbane blocks looked huge and for sure in a few years the pressure will be on to subdivide these like as occured in Perth.

Still, it will still be superior to city living in most of the rest of the world. Just mention Asia and it conjures up images of crowded high rise living in (often polluted) massive cities. Europe has lots of apartment blocks in major cities.

Reminds me too of comments in a property investing book by Perth real estate agent - Rory O'Rourke's "Born Free. Taxed To Death" (Book has been discussed in earlier posts; posts can be found via the search function) - about the middle class is disappearing. He wrote that in visiting overseas countries he saw that the cost of home ownership was increasingly out of reach of the middle class. Sounds like you're seeing the same thing?

Also, notice that the exclusive suburbs maintain their block sizes. They remain leafy oases and become increasingly rarer (relatively). More desirable. More exclusive.

Maybe it motivates you on your investing path? After a decade or two (of investing) you should be able to live wherever you want - or maybe you can get there a heck of a lot faster than that, if you want.

Rather than be depressed, be motivated!

 

[Pablo]

MishMash,

I cant help but feel that instead of building the estates you mention they would have been better off building a high rise and having some parks and maybe a recreation level.

What is the advantage of owning a home without a backyard? At least in a high rise you might get a good view.

 

[Peter Parker]

MishMash,

I cant help but feel that instead of building the estates you mention they would have been better off building a high rise and having some parks and maybe a recreation level.

Le Corbusier had some similar ideas in the 1920s, proposing cities comprising apartments in a park setting ringed by freeways.

Many of his ideas were used in public housing estates post WWII.

It was a disaster, particularly for families with children.

Brasilia, the only city fully designed around his principles, has also not been regarded as a success.

Jane Jacobs has some much better ideas IMHO.

http://tesugen.com/archives/04/06/corbus-city-of-tomorrow
http://www.mises.org/story/1247
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Corbusier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Jacobs

Peter

 

[lizzie]

on reading the initial rant two things immediately sprung to mind ... the blocks are small because of supply and demand. homeowners demand their own block, but space and distance dictates that to fit x number of people into y space then blocks can only be a certain size. note also that houses that are put on these blocks are generally 2-3 times bigger than the houses built in our parents generation.

i agree that kids don't go out as much ... we have big blocks where we are but most of the kids play cricket etc in the cul-de-sac instead of the backyards. also, we have three teens and they only venture outside to hop in the pool on hot days - sometimes they will go entire weekends without venturing past any of the exterior doors. this was not how they were bought up - we used to go for long rambling walks when they were young, i like to garden to sit outside in the sun - it is just how kids are nowadays.

the thing that got at me most tho was the comment of "what i want costs $600k but i can only afford $250K". welcome to the real world. do you think any of us started off in our $600K houses? or your parents? if all you can afford is $250k then buy something for that and work you way up - like the rest of us did. my first house was a three bedroom dogbox on the side of a cliff where my dining setting was a card table and two plastic chairs. next house was a dilapidated old inner city cottage that i renovated (wish i still had it!), next house was an old federation in an middle circle suburb with huge backyard - renovated house, built another on the back, sudivided, sold and bought current large and newish house then paid off it's mortgage by using what equity we had to purchases more houses which we then renovated or subdivided and sold.

now we use that equity in our ppor to buy more investment houses to keep, and each time we get wealthier ... but if we hard started with our $600k house and whopping mortgage, we would still only have a big house with a huge mortgage. i would be still working outside the home instead of investing and being home for the kids, we wouldn't have a new yacht, we wouldn't have the pool or the overseas holidays.

start with what you can afford - dream and set goals, but don't jeopodise those goals by being greedy and wanting it all to soon.

 

[MishMash]

on reading the initial rant two things immediately sprung to mind ... the blocks are small because of supply and demand. homeowners demand their own block, but space and distance dictates that to fit x number of people into y space then blocks can only be a certain size. note also that houses that are put on these blocks are generally 2-3 times bigger than the houses built in our parents generation.

i agree that kids don't go out as much ... we have big blocks where we are but most of the kids play cricket etc in the cul-de-sac instead of the backyards. also, we have three teens and they only venture outside to hop in the pool on hot days - sometimes they will go entire weekends without venturing past any of the exterior doors. this was not how they were bought up - we used to go for long rambling walks when they were young, i like to garden to sit outside in the sun - it is just how kids are nowadays.

the thing that got at me most tho was the comment of "what i want costs $600k but i can only afford $250K". welcome to the real world. do you think any of us started off in our $600K houses? or your parents? if all you can afford is $250k then buy something for that and work you way up - like the rest of us did. my first house was a three bedroom dogbox on the side of a cliff where my dining setting was a card table and two plastic chairs. next house was a dilapidated old inner city cottage that i renovated (wish i still had it!), next house was an old federation in an middle circle suburb with huge backyard - renovated house, built another on the back, sudivided, sold and bought current large and newish house then paid off it's mortgage by using what equity we had to purchases more houses which we then renovated or subdivided and sold.

now we use that equity in our ppor to buy more investment houses to keep, and each time we get wealthier ... but if we hard started with our $600k house and whopping mortgage, we would still only have a big house with a huge mortgage. i would be still working outside the home instead of investing and being home for the kids, we wouldn't have a new yacht, we wouldn't have the pool or the overseas holidays.

start with what you can afford - dream and set goals, but don't jeopodise those goals by being greedy and wanting it all to soon.

Fabulous. The blocks get smaller and smaller and the houses bigger and bigger, no room for gardens/trees etc and the kids that stay inside play on their playstations/computers etc and forget what fresh air actually is. Not only does the environment suffer due to the lack of greenery, but kids will grow up not knowing what exercise is. As if Australia doesn't have enough obese children already. I'd rather live in a shoebox with a large yard where the kiddies can play than a huge house with no character or charm on a tiny block.

I can't speak for your children or anyone else's, but my partner's children love the ourdoors. They are constantly playing outside, making up games, climbing trees, catching insects etc. They would hate to live in a place with no backyard.

Lizzie, please show me where i wrote what i want costs $600k but i can only afford $250K I am actually quite realistic about what i can borrow and what i can comfortably pay off. The $250,000 budget is one that i have imposed upon myself because i don't want to be living on bread and water whilst trying to meet skyhigh repayments. By no means do i want a $600k mortgage-i'm young, not stupid. My house could be the ugliest, oldest house in the street but as long as it has a backyard and enough room to swing the cat then i will be thrilled. Give me a place like this anyday over one of the dumps at Park Central/Blair Athol etc.

I resent being called greedy-i am far from it. Whilst i love the idea of building a new home on a large block and living happily ever after, i recognise that the expenses involved are far greater than i can afford. I will buy my shoebox and i will be proud of it because for the past two years i have saved my arse off (including one year as a trainee earning <$12,000) and worked very hard. And i will have done it in time for my 20th birthday.

My post was not a whinge about poor me, i want to spend $$$$$$ on a house and i can't afford it-i was simply pissed off after looking at ugly, characterless blocks & houses all afternoon. If that's the future of NSW housing, god help us all.

 

[alwayscurious]

Looxury!

my first house was a three bedroom dogbox on the side of a cliff where my dining setting was a card table and two plastic chairs

Plastic chairs? Looxury. When I were a lad, we had no chairs, had to sit on broken bottles, lick road clean with tongue etc etc.

In fact:

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
I was happier then and I had nothin'. We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
House! You were lucky to live in a house! We used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, 'alf the floor was missing, and we were all 'uddled together in one corner for fear of falling.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Eh, you were lucky to have a room! We used to have to live in t' corridor!
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Oh, we used to dream of livin' in a corridor! Would ha' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woke up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House? Huh.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Well, when I say 'house' it was only a hole in the ground covered by a sheet of tarpaulin, but it was a house to us.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
We were evicted from our 'ole in the ground; we 'ad to go and live in a lake.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
You were lucky to have a lake! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Cardboard box?
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Aye.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.
FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.
ALL:
They won't!

 

[lizzie]

I resent being called greedy-i am far from it.

sorry - didn't mean to imply you were greedy and definately didn't direct it at you. that was me having a whinge. i have seen so many young twentysomethings who buy the huge house as their first home and then struggle with the mortgage - all because they want what their parents currently have, rather than seeing what their parents started out with.

i think i must have gotten mixed up when you said "considering block in our area go gor $600k+ ... all i can afford is a cardboard box." i took this as meaning you wanting the larger.

yep - was a card table with two plastic chairs. then my husband invited his boss to dinner so i had to rush out and buy a plastic outdoor table from bigw for $5 (because it had a crack in it) - and cover the table with a cloth.

ah, times have changed.

 

[Ausprop]

It's just horses for courses. I lived on a 1000sqm block between the beach and the city - what a nightmare. I don't think I ever walked to the back fence other than to mow the lawn or some other mundane task. Moving to a high density area is the best thing I ever did... I would like to build again but am struggling to find a similar development. My prioirites are access to services and community facilities (and transport), security, low maintenance - not a distant dream of kicking a football around the back yard. In the unliley event that I wanted to do that I would go to a park that someone else maintains.

but I agree that high density does not to be countered by park areas. Most councils enforce that by public open space contributions for re-developments.

 

[thefirstbruce]

Plastic chairs? Looxury. When I were a lad, we had no ALL:
They won't!

ahhh yesssss......classic Python....whatever happened to real humour......

 

[perky29]

What I find strange is the prices where I live - i.e Baulkham Hills vrs Kellyville.
My PPOR (4 bed, 2 bath - 923sqm) is about 80k less in price than my IP in Kellyville (4 bed 2 bath double storey on half the block 450sqm).
You would have to think that at some point other people will think the same - i.e they will want a yard !!!
Here is a house just down the road from where we live (200m from Jasper road school) :
http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bi...0&p=10&t=res&ty=&snf=rbs&ag=&cu=&fmt=&header=

BTW - I am in no way affiliated with this house - just using it as an example of something more affordable in a nice suburb.

 

[agent 86]

Plastic chairs? Looxury. When I were a lad, we had no chairs, had to sit on broken bottles, lick road clean with tongue etc etc.

In fact:

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN:
I was happier then and I had nothin'. We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof..........

Alwayscurious & TFB,

Love it.
One of the reasons I listen to the ABC Radio......
Would love a tape/CD of it to play to my children DAILY.

Re small blocks,

Agree with Geoff, large blocks are usually under utilised as children not only have indoor pursuits as well as use skateboards (concrete sports) etc.Not the hordes of kids playing in backyards like yesteryear. Who grows veges chooks etc anymore?

I'm also on a big block and the lawnmowing season has just begun.

A86

 

[agent 86]

I'm also on a big block and the lawnmowing season has just begun.

But would I want to swap it for living on a tiny block hemmed in as MishMash describes.

NO WAY

A86

 

[DavidMc]

It's just horses for courses. I lived on a 1000sqm block between the beach and the city - what a nightmare. I don't think I ever walked to the back fence other than to mow the lawn or some other mundane task. Moving to a high density area is the best thing I ever did... I would like to build again but am struggling to find a similar development. My prioirites are access to services and community facilities (and transport), security, low maintenance - not a distant dream of kicking a football around the back yard. In the unliley event that I wanted to do that I would go to a park that someone else maintains.

but I agree that high density does not to be countered by park areas. Most councils enforce that by public open space contributions for re-developments.

I agree with Ausprop. Having lived a good deal in the outer burbs of Melbourne, I spent 6 months living in HK. The lifestyle and convenience was awesome. I had public transport to take me anywhere I wanted to at my doorstep, as well as shopping, clubs, bars, cafes, medical facilities, restuarants, etc. This sort of convenince can only exist where the population is dense. When I wanted to chill out I had a rooftop garden which was enough for me.

Sure I lived on a 850m2 block in Narre Warren and on over an acre in semi-rural NSW, but at this stage of my life (20's) give me the ability to walk home from a night out on the town or to do my shopping over that little parcel of backyard I never used (and had to mow) and the 5-10 min drive to buy the milk anyday. Heck, I couldn't even get broadband for the 8 years I lived there.

 

[thefirstbruce]

I think whether someone prefers convenience or space is probably a psychophysiology thing. The physiology of some have low thresholds for sensory overload, because their minds are pretty active without it. Others have higher thresholds for external stimuli, and actually seek out higher levels.

The guys who did a lot of early personality theory identified these differences through psychophysiological measures - BP, pulse rate, pupil dilation, skin resistance. This was the origin of the introvert/extravert personality scale.

I think we all know people who prefer a quiet life closer to nature, and others who live on adrenalin in the inner city. Personally I prefer more space, and would move to a regional town, if I knew the economy would be stable, and there was reasonable intellectual stimulation.

But then again, the only reason I prefer the space is because values are so heterogenous in today's society, that is, it is hard to get neighbours who share my values for a quieter lifestyle....neglected neurotic dogs that bark incessantly, guys that want to hot up cars all weekend, stereos blaring doof doof music, kids with ADHD going beserk in the backyard.......yeah, I could do with a bit more space......

The whole medium density thing is a noise pollution matter these days, but if we were all brought up more considerate, then it wouldn't be such a stress. And that's where this new trend towards medium density departs from historical precedents. In the 'olden days', people tended to go to sleep and get up around the same time, and didn't have noisy cars and stereos. They also had thick brick walls and small windows, rather then living in the sub tropics with a need for windows to be open more.

Night.......

 

[demoman]

Hi everyone,

We live in the heart of the sea change belt. Most of our neighbors are either from Sydney or Brisbane. Average block size is 5600m2 and surrounded by beautiful countryside. Major regional centre 15mins drive, 3 airports within an hours drive, Byron Bay and other beaches 30 to 40 mins away. We have it all. And at a fraction of the cost of those McMansions.

I have seen those estates Mish Mash refers to popping up all over what used to be some of the best agricultural land in the sydney basin. Glenmore Park, Cecil Hills, Windsor area to name a few. I don't understand why people need such monstrous houses. What on earth are the councils thinking when they allow such closed in development. I will never get it.

For me just over an acre is ideal..........the guy next door is the local school bus driver and we don't even hear his Bus leaving in the morning. I can play my stereo at concert volume ( despite the threat of divorce ). And you can have a conversation outside without all your neighbors knowing all your business. I feel very sad for those who spend their time indoors, we live in a great country, and for the most part have a great climate, get out there and enjoy it.........but don't forget to slip, slop, slap.

................and another day begins in Paradise.

See ya........I'm off to mow the grass.

Jared