A question for the women.

Have any of you women felt completely patronised by (not all) but quite a large number of (usually male) people that you have to deal with when investing in property? You know, brokers, bank staff, REA's, solicitors, etc.

It might be because I am dressed casually, the fact that DH is the income earner and I am a SAHM, or it could be the baby I am holding and the two young kids underfoot (a babysitter would be nice, but in most cases unnessecary) - But I seem to have a sign stuck to my head that says "Explain it all to my DH, I am 'just' a SAHM, so of course I wouldn't understand anything" :rolleyes:

Of course those people who do treat me like an idiot don't ever see us again, but it is just so patronising! I shouldn't have to explain to anyone (and I don't) that I am the one who dedicates my time and energy to researching everything (and then explain it to DH) and that I have a commerce degree (with a minor in accounting) and a law degree (majoring in property and conveyencing), etc...

Now don't get me wrong my DH is also a bright spark, but I simply have more time and energy to dedicate to my research, while he has work commitments to focus on.

I have little patience for idiots, but sometimes it just seems that there are just too many of them out there.

So is it just me? Or have other people come across this too?
 
I see exapmples of this all the time.
I was taken out to lunch yesterday by a lovely lady (property investor), who was picking up the bill as a thank you for something I did for her.
However, because I was the guy, I got the attention from the waiting staff AND the bill.
I went with another female friend (also an investor) recently to look at some cars in various car yards with her. She was making the decisions and had the money. I was just their as a supportive friend. Yet, every time the saleperson would assume I was the buyer and would talk to me first and always make eye contact with me at every question. They didn't even bother to ask who the buyer was. They just assumed we were a couple and that I was the decision maker.
Is this all a part of the conditioning to which we are subject from an early age?
 
I've noticed it too from time to time, but it varies.

If our son is with us (a pre-teen), it happens more often, although we're known as investors in our town now and most of the agents know not to mess with me. There is one agent in particular who still does it. He's a smarmy young guy, got the whole "overprice properties and sell them to dumb Sydneysiders who don't know the area" scam going. He doesn't really like locals at all because we know his properties are overpriced. But generally I make the first contact so they've talked to me before they meet my husband.

I find it's much worse with brokers and banks than with real estate agents. Good REAs (and most of ours are good) are generally much better at picking out the decision-maker. They're salespeople at heart.
 
As a relationship builder ( PC for sales person that likes repeat business) I learnt a Looooooooooooooong time ago, that you could almost ignore the male side of the equation and focus on the one wearing the pants. To do otherwise will show VERY obviously in your sales stats,and prove that you'd be a slow learner.

You can have Mr very much on side, but unless you have buy in from the mrs, it aint gonna work.

On the other hand, if Mr doesnt want it, and mrs does, eventually Mrs will wear him down :)

PS I dont make the rules..................I just follow them

ta
rolf

PSS, Happy wife, happy life
 
...the saleperson would assume I was the buyer and would talk to me first and always make eye contact with me at every question

Oh, goodness, you've just reminded me. The smarmy guy I mentioned above? When I ask him questions, he gives the answer to my husband. Sheesh!
 
Not had an issue. The other half is kind of a silent shadow that hides behind me and avoids talking to people at all costs so it is pretty obvious who to talk to.

I did all the legwork for our current house, the agent was great. I had a small wriggly baby on the boob (yes, in the REA office) at the time too.

Now, back in 2003 when I bought my car ... I had no driver's license but I had a lot of money and dragged a male friend along to do all the test driving. I got ignored *completely* until the actual moment they wanted the paperwork signed and it became obvious who was actually doing the buying.
 
The worst case of this happened to me several years ago now. I spoke to a very rude Agent who refused to discuss anything with me because I didn't have Hubby with me. :eek:

Guess which agency I didn't buy through?:D I even viewed their properties that I was interested in through another agency.
 
Not had an issue. The other half is kind of a silent shadow that hides behind me and avoids talking to people at all costs so it is pretty obvious who to talk to.

I did all the legwork for our current house, the agent was great. I had a small wriggly baby on the boob (yes, in the REA office) at the time too.

Now, back in 2003 when I bought my car ... I had no driver's license but I had a lot of money and dragged a male friend along to do all the test driving. I got ignored *completely* until the actual moment they wanted the paperwork signed and it became obvious who was actually doing the buying.

maybe I should swap my DH for a silent shadow type ;), not sure how he would feel about that though :D

Surprisingly I have never had a problem with car salespeople, they all seem to defer to me when I in fact could care less - provided it has enough seats for everyone.
 
I have not been around investments long enough to comment on this in the context of the question, however in reply to Rob...

I see exapmples of this all the time.

<snip>

However, because I was the guy, I got the attention from the waiting staff AND the bill.
<snip>

Yet, every time the saleperson would assume I was the buyer and would talk to me first and always make eye contact with me at every question. They didn't even bother to ask who the buyer was.
<snip>

Is this all a part of the conditioning to which we are subject from an early age?

It is the way that most of society chooses to work. Generally speaking, a gentleman would order and pick up the bill. Again, generally speaking a male is the head of the house, so it's assumed that the male would be the one to talk to regarding money decisions.

I understand that is not how everyone works, but it is the general assumption. I would find it strange if I went out with my lady and they gave the bill to her. Even if she was paying that night - unless she somehow indicated that she was to the staff.

That said, there aren't that many gentlemen around anymore, so perhaps it is a bit outdated to assume the man would pay.

This is totally different to ignoring a female however which of course I don't condone, but if there is an assumption to be made, generally speaking, the male is the choice.
 
As a relationship builder ( PC for sales person that likes repeat business) I learnt a Looooooooooooooong time ago, that you could almost ignore the male side of the equation and focus on the one wearing the pants. To do otherwise will show VERY obviously in your sales stats,and prove that you'd be a slow learner.

You can have Mr very much on side, but unless you have buy in from the mrs, it aint gonna work.

On the other hand, if Mr doesnt want it, and mrs does, eventually Mrs will wear him down :)

PS I dont make the rules..................I just follow them

ta
rolf

PSS, Happy wife, happy life

You're a smart man Rolf ;). I imagine REA that do well also apply this rule.


Apart from when asking for an investment loan from a middle aged bank manager in the early 80's (when I was young and single) who looked at me like I had two heads I really haven't had any bad experiences.

Mind you we rarely see banks REA or other similar people at the same time. We have never felt it necessary and are generally too busy to go together or one has stayed home with the children (usually my husband).

I do image this happens regularly though. A female friend told me only recently how she and her maintenance man were in the backyard of one of her properties that was on the market when someone off the the street walked up and started asking the maintenance man Q's about the sale :rolleyes:.
 
generally speaking a male is the head of the house, so it's assumed that the male would be the one to talk to regarding money decisions.

eXc has hit the nail on the head with this for you rugrat IMO. You are swimming against this general assumption.....good bad or indifferent however that may be.

Of course, all of the female investors on this board would beg to differ, but then they are probably all a relative rarity (in a good way) when it comes to the entire Ozzy population.

I find the whole subject of "head of household" and financial decision maker quite fascinating. You can really see the personalities leap out when discussing with couples.


PS - Cheers Rob....I won't leave the waiter guessing who the bill is for ;)

PPS - Don't try that **** with me Rolf. It'll be real bad for your sales stats :)
 
It is the way that most of society chooses to work. Generally speaking, a gentleman would order and pick up the bill. Again, generally speaking a male is the head of the house, so it's assumed that the male would be the one to talk to regarding money decisions...

I don't disagree with you for the most part. I don't have a problem with it in formal dining situations, because you're quite right, it's still assumed that the man is hosting the woman (and in fact, that is usually the case, from what I can tell).

However, the woman was always head of the home. Maybe not the money, and maybe not investments, but if the couple were buying their PPOR or a reno I would expect the woman to be the primary person to whom one would talk.

That said, I do think women need to be more assertive and make clear they are involved in the decisions. They need to ask questions, say things like "I/we're looking for...", etc. From watching other couples, I am not sure this is the case. I see a lot of men asking the questions and women wandering around saying "this is nice." If a couple makes clear by their behaviour that it is a joint decision, and a professional continues to ignore the woman, then yes, they're being sexist and deserve contempt. But they can't be expected to "just know" how things work in your family.
 
I have a friend who is a real estate agent in the area that I live and I had this discussion with him a while ago, and he said there is a huge number of women buying property on their own so he never assumes that there would be a man involved, and deals with the woman exactly as he would a man. I think it is becoming more and more the norm, women doing things themselves so I think it's more a generational thing.

I actually find it quite amusing moreso than patronising. It hasn't happened a lot, but I have had some salesmen etc. assume I'd be having a man come along to hold my hand to help me, and are surprised to realise I actually have a brain of my own. The best case was when I was looking to buy a car not too long ago. I had my mother with me and she said she was laughing inside, watching the salesmen rush up to me thinking I'd be some ditsy bimbo, when in fact I was probably their most difficult customer for the day. They really have no idea who they're dealing with, so I just laugh at it inside. :) I never do anything without a lot of homework and research, so just throw that in their face when they try to spin their nonsense. :D
 
Hi, I went to look at a commercial property and was asked "Where's your husband? Bring him tomorrow & we'll discuss it".

This was overseas. For a long time I was the only woman at the place where they let customers use the computers to buy shares.

I was thrown out of the meeting at a finance broking firm [can't recall the name] by a young man in a suit.

Because I was wearing track shoes!

I think I grew a 2nd skin that inured me to quizzical looks. A woman, an Asian, alone & in the scruffiest of track pants & shoes?

KY
 
However, the woman was always head of the home. Maybe not the money, and maybe not investments, but if the couple were buying their PPOR or a reno I would expect the woman to be the primary person to whom one would talk.

Not in my experience. My experience is the man is the head of the house. There are exceptions on smaller things where it is the case where the male will totally cave and give in, and a few larger examples like a new kitchen (this is still the decision to have it done by the male, but allow the female to design it how she likes, as she is typically the one in there),however any major decision, while made together, is mainly driven by the male...I have seen some examples where the man is just a wuss and is "yes dear..whatever you want dear...." and where I have seen this is the case, the woman 100% drives everything, the guy just hands over the money.

My experience is limited to my friends and family, so perhaps we were all brought up to same ideals.

Please understand that I am not trying to say women are less than equal to guys, I am just stating my experience, and why I think as a generalistion the guy is the one that would normally get thrown the questions/bills.

EDIT : I actually have one family as friends, that do the exact opposite. The guy is the main bread winner, however the wife is the decision maker in most (all?) aspects, so it is a flipped role to standard. Their situation works well for them, it is not a "yes dear, whatever you want dear" situation, the wife still very much respects the husband.
 
i haven't really had a problem - mainly because hubby just isn't around when the decisions are being made or items purchased. he's too busy at work.

in regards to upbringing/conditioning ... one has to remember that it's only been in the last 20-30 years that women have really come out of the closet and actually had a social say in matters. before that one couldn't even get a bank loan without the drunk, gambling uncle going on the documents because a single female wasn't allowed to borrow on her own.

i remember when i started work at the bank 25 years ago - and cash was carried in an old, roughed up briefcase up the road to the main branch - the transfer wasn't covered by the insurance company unless a "man" went with the female supervisor ... the "man" was an 80 yr old retainer who couldn't have beaten off a fly - but the insurance rules were specific.

gosh, only 100 years ago women were forbidden from reading the newspaper and only 50 years since married women were not allowed to work!

so you're only looking at a generation (the last 20 years) when attitudes have started to change and women have taken assertion. it will take time for general society rules to catch up.

dazz is also right ... we females on ss are often the exception. the majority of women still expected to be "looked after" by a man.
 
Not in my experience. My experience is the man is the head of the house. There are exceptions on smaller things where it is the case where the male will totally cave and give in, and a few larger examples like a new kitchen (this is still the decision to have it done by the male, but allow the female to design it how she likes, as she is typically the one in there),however any major decision, while made together, is mainly driven by the male...I have seen some examples where the man is just a wuss and is "yes dear..whatever you want dear...." and where I have seen this is the case, the woman 100% drives everything, the guy just hands over the money.

My experience is limited to my friends and family, so perhaps we were all brought up to same ideals.

Perhaps. My experience of "conservative" households where such rules are still in play are conservative Christian households who have chosen the SAHM thing, and the flip side is that it's understood that the house is the woman's domain and she is trusted to run it her way. The man has what you might call a right of veto, but part of respecting the woman as wife and mother (in the old fashioned sense) is respecting that unless he strongly disagrees, it's up to her.

Please understand that I am not trying to say women are less than equal to guys, I am just stating my experience, and why I think as a generalistion the guy is the one that would normally get thrown the questions/bills.

Understood. I for one am not taking issue. The fact is people do make assumptions based on the majority of observed experience. We couldn't get through the day without it. Imagine trying to cross every road without assuming in that split second that the first lot of cars will come from your right. No one would get anything done.

EDIT : I actually have one family as friends, that do the exact opposite. The guy is the main bread winner, however the wife is the decision maker in most (all?) aspects, so it is a flipped role to standard. Their situation works well for them, it is not a "yes dear, whatever you want dear" situation, the wife still very much respects the husband.

We're in the middle. I would say I'm the key decision maker (and my husband would and does say the same), and I drive our investments. We are near-equal breadwinners. But he does have right of veto, and I don't do anything without a certain level of buy-in from him. We've both got to be willing to sign on the dotted line.
 
one has to remember that it's only been in the last 20-30 years that women have really come out of the closet and actually had a social say in matters. before that one couldn't even get a bank loan without the drunk, gambling uncle going on the documents because a single female wasn't allowed to borrow on her own.


Even back then there were exceptions.

In the late 1950s my divorced aunt (gasp! shock! horror!) wanted to buy a little house for her and her son. She had the deposit, was working (another gasp!) and could afford the repayments. She went to the bank who insisted that her widowed mother put up her house as guarantee. My dad, who worked for War Service Homes, went to the bank with her and after a long argument (DON'T mess with my dad!) Auntie Jess got her home loan, in her own name and with only her house on the mortgage. And then proceeded to pay it off entirely on her own.

I do all the money things in our family, so am the one who fronts up and arranges the finances. I don't recall any obvious bias, but to be honest I am usually focused on the deal or the property and so long as the answers are given I don't much care if the comment is directed to me or hubby.

RE agents who make assumptions about ANYONE are just plain stupid. Son and his fiance met one of these agents last weekend. Fiance's grandfather has just died and her parents are inheriting a multi-million estate. Parents are thinking of buying waterfront in Melbourne. Open house last weekend and they couldn't make it, so they asked my son and his fiance to go along and find out a few things. The agent ignored them. When they asked him a direct question he simply pointed to a table, said "the brochures are over there" and chased off after obviously older (and therefore better??)prospects. These young people were so ticked off I doubt the agent will hear anything more.

What an idiot.
Marg
 
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