ALARM BELLS RINGING

[WebBoard]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1
From: Mike TheBloodyIdiot


AL,

Take your time, use your brain.

I have spotted three nonsenses in your post which make it complete rubbish.

If you also can spot them, good on you. If not - please feel free to think that you are very smart.

Regards,

Mike - self deluded idiot

 

[Tibor]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1.1
From: Tibor Bode


Mike Al,

Guy it is not a slanging match, it is discussion with differing opinions allowed.
Actually from my point of view both of you have very valid points. I am just on the basis that one wrong doing (bank lands on 60% but saying 80%)does not justify another (get even with them by using "smart deals").
Would not be a better deal for everyone involved, doing the correct valuation, allow revaluation 1 week after reno (obviously at own cost) not waiting for 3 to 6 months, outlaw drive-by valuations, valuations to be disclosed to people who pay for them, etc.
At that time we can ALL concentrate what is the basis of the entire thing, the DEAL, not the surroundings! Am I asking too much or am I too naive?

Tibor

 

[Ross Sondergeld]

The Valuer - ALARM BELLS RINGING

Reply: 6.1.1.1
From: Ross Sondergeld


Hi Mike,


The Valuer - ALARM BELLS RINGING

You said, "Who really is doing the most damage to our belowed bank? Yes, it
is the bloody valuer. Is not it complete nonsense that all bank valuations
on purchase come exactly at purchase price? What kind of "professional work"
it is to copy purchase price from one box in the contract to another box in
the valuation sheet? Isn't it an operation that you can train a monkey to
do? Why they need to know the price before the valuation at all? Aren't they
supposed to estimate the real value of the property?"


Mike, you can't pick on the poor valuer.

Firstly, the valuer does a "mortgage valuation" based on the instructions
they've been given.

Secondly, sometimes... the "valuer" is actually a "bank employee" that
sticks a value on a property. (* Based on instructions for mortgage
purposes.)



P.S. I'm an uni educated property valuer. I'm NOT a licensed valuer.



Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

Buyerside Real Estate Mobile 0412 289 464
Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast [email protected]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

 

[WebBoard]

The Valuer - ALARM BELLS RINGING

Reply: 6.1.1.1.1
From: Mike TheBloodyIdiot


Thanks Ross,

I really appreciate your response and I really hope that I will not scare you away but encourage you to have another thorough look at your uni text books.

Am I assuming right that the guy who taught you valuations was a former valuer himself? This is perhaps the reason they just brainwashed you with the myths that are circulating in the industry for ages.

Myth #1 - valuer is an employee of the bank. Noop. Valuer is an independent entity. Valuer does not get paid by the bank. Bank collects distinct valuation fee from borrower which is then simply passed over to the valuer. So valuer is in fact employed by the borrower rather than by bank.

Myth #2 - Valuer is held liable for his valuation by the bank. Noop. Valuer liability extends to all parties affected by the valuation.

As I said, in case of owner occupier it is almost impossible to substaniate any damages arising from valuation, but if it is for an investment purposes....

Area of valuations is an extremely grey area, and lenders keep it grey for a good reason (Why would they be doing that if everything was completely ethical and legal?). I am having great difficulties of finding the truth as to what kind of rights we are granted by the Law of the Land (not by the bank rules) with regards to valuations.

Question - those mortgage instructions - have you got any example of such instructions you can share with us?

Thanks again,

Mike - TBI

 

[WebBoard]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1.1.1
From: Mike TheBloodyIdiot


On 5/16/02 9:37:00 PM, Tibor Bode wrote:
>Mike Al,
>
>Guy it is not a slanging
>match, it is discussion with
>differing opinions allowed.

Differing opinions - yes, idiotic blunders - no.

>Actually from my point of view
>both of you have very valid
>points.

Both of us??? Really???
Thanks Tibor. I am delighted to learn that passing "brown paper bag" under the table is a "valid" thing to do.

Look, this "bag" stuff constitutes much more obvious fraud even than undisclosed rebate.

I would be very careful endorsing it as a "valid point".

Further, AL is obviously not up for a challenge to discover three of his own blunders which make the scenario he painted completely misleading and malicious rubbish.

Would you mind if I challenge you to tell us why his scenario is simply impossible?

I am just on the basis
>that one wrong doing (bank
>lands on 60% but saying
>80%)does not justify another
>(get even with them by using
>"smart deals").

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you admit that bank is actually involved in wrongdoing.
And it is OK.
But shame on those who is trying to outsmart the system to their advantage by not sticking to the bank rules, although doing 100% legal things.

Sorry mate, but you are seriously confused. Like they say in post communist countries - "can you distinguish between polar lights and donkey's testicles?"

You must stick to the Law of Land, but you have the same kind of right to devise your own rules and impose them on your bank as bank has the right to impose rules on you.

If you want to live by the rules authorities why don't you listen to the Prime Minister of this country who wants you to work until you are 70 and then to die as quickly as possible, so they don't pay you a pension?

According to your philosophy, you should not be anywhere near property investments, as it might provide you the way out of a rat race much earlier than PM wants. Serious wrongdoing.

Gee, mate. Get your fundamentals right first, decide what you want and which side of the fence you belong to. You should remember the expression "Squeeze out the slave out of yourself drop by drop", shouldn't you?


>Would not be a better deal for
>everyone involved, doing the
>correct valuation, allow
>revaluation 1 week after reno

Here it goes, your val:

So, you have bought this house a week ago for $180K. Thanks, it frees me from the necessity to look for comparable sales. Then, you have done bathroom and kitchen, that would cost you around $15K, right?.

So, here is your value - $195K.
Sorry, I do not care the house next door sold for $400K. The best comparable sale until after six months is the price paid for this very house. It is the rule we impose on you, you must accept it.

What??? Sorry, I do not support the concept that $15K reno lifts value of the property by $60K.

Not happy? Feel free to refinance with the other institution, but do not forget to pay us $15 K in breakdown costs, this would make us very happy.

 

[Waverlybay]

The Valuer - ALARM BELLS RINGING

Reply: 6.1.1.1.1.1
From: Waverly Bay


Hi Mike TBI

I appreciate your comments on this topic and your determination to approach property issues from an out of the box angle with the view to "stirring discussions" ! See my comments below

cheers

Waverly


On 5/17/02 12:04:00 PM, Mike TheBloodyIdiot wrote:
>Thanks Ross,
>
>I really appreciate your
>response and I really hope
>that I will not scare you away
>but encourage you to have
>another thorough look at your
>uni text books.
>
>Am I assuming right that the
>guy who taught you valuations
>was a former valuer himself?
>This is perhaps the reason
>they just brainwashed you with
>the myths that are circulating
>in the industry for ages.
>
>Myth #1 - valuer is an
>employee of the bank. Noop.
>Valuer is an independent
>entity. Valuer does not get
>paid by the bank. Bank
>collects distinct valuation
>fee from borrower which is
>then simply passed over to the
>valuer. So valuer is in fact
>employed by the borrower
>rather than by bank.

Yes, registered valuers are independent entities. However, ross said "sometimes" banks use their own employees to do the valuation (instead of instructing a third party valuer). I can vouch for this from experience. One of the banks i use for revaluations...told me that their internal staff do the valuations for properties up to AUD$1,000,000. A registered valuer is only called in to do valuations over that amount. This practice was in place as recently as February 2002.

I have scored incredible successes with this bank on securing valuations for my IPs - i think due largely in part to the fact that this bank employee is not bound by the same restrictions normally imposed on registered valuers (who are bound by rules, ethics, practice guidelines etc . . .imposed by their governing body). A recent valuation involved me simply providing some corresponding sales and then a dollar figure of the renovations costs i incurred. This might sound incredible - but he did not inspect the property (using only RP data to confirm my sales) ...and i secured my desired valuation.




>Myth #2 - Valuer is held
>liable for his valuation by
>the bank. Noop. Valuer
>liability extends to all
>parties affected by the
>valuation.
>

Actually, a registered valuer will normally restrict the valuation report as being applicable to only the party "to whom this report is addressed". So if the report is addressed to the bank, then the results of the report are for the benefit of the bank only. (Note: that is why when approaching panel valuers to do a valuation report, it is important that the panel valuer addresses the report in the banks name. I notice Bank practices vary considerably on this point.... but a report in the name of the bank is the best bet to get the val accepted).

The report will also usually confine the purpose for which that report was provided (eg: mortgage purposes) and will expressly state that the report is not to be used for any other purposes.

The valuer will also expressly disclaim in the report any responsibilities to third parties seeking to rely on the report.

Registered valuers are having an awful time with insurers right now and so such caveats and disclaimers are a fundamental and necessary part of their reports.


>As I said, in case of owner
>occupier it is almost
>impossible to substaniate any
>damages arising from
>valuation, but if it is for an
>investment purposes....
>
>Area of valuations is an
>extremely grey area, and
>lenders keep it grey for a
>good reason (Why would they be
>doing that if everything was
>completely ethical and
>legal?). I am having great
>difficulties of finding the
>truth as to what kind of
>rights we are granted by the
>Law of the Land (not by the
>bank rules) with regards to
>valuations.
>
>Question - those mortgage
>instructions - have you got
>any example of such
>instructions you can share
>with us?
>
>Thanks again,
>
>Mike - TBI

 

[Tibor]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Tibor Bode


Hi Mike,

It seems that my response made you really get going. It's OK, it is your opinion. May I beg to differ? Just because some financial institutions doing some dirty, or the least to say non ethical behaviour, it still will not make me to behave the same way and allow me to justify that behaviour. But its fine for those who insist that this is the way to the holy grail. I would not like to be found out one day and maybe to loose everything as a result of it, especially not my integrity. To me that someone is cheating on another and calls it "sophisticated investor" philosophy, makes no difference, it is the same. It is still possible to make money without turning to any of the dirty tricks and then justify it by saying "They are doing the same". I have a very negative opinion about banks and some other financial institutions from first hand experience, and in spite of this I would not try to outsmart them by using some questionable tactics. To me if the deal stacks up, I will move on and fine someone who is willing to lend (it WORKS based on my experience), if it does not, I should not be in it at the first place. Myself coming from a rotten communist regime, I was sick and tired of entire lives and existence was based on cheating, steeling and lying and hoping that you "bet on the right horse", so you will not fall from grace one day.

Anyway I appreciate your comments as it makes me think and re-evaluate my way of thinking.

Tibor

 

[WebBoard]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Mike TheBloodyIdiot


What can I say mate, what can I say...

I apologize for my brutal attempt to break your pink glasses.

After all second rule of investment is that you do only what you feel you are comfortable with. Go the way you feel comfortable.

Can I just ask you couple of questions:

- How come you lived under communist regime and managed to ignore completely works of Marx and Lenin (Just "Das Kapital") for the begining? Exploitation of surplus value and all this staff, you should remember.

Capitalism is an exploitation human by human and communism is directly the opposite. This kind of rubbish.

If you were not bludgering in your last year at school, oyu would understand, that property investment is nothing else but indirect exploitation of:

a. Capital growth. This is an exploitation of land scarcity which is caused by forcing of the poor people to move closer to the metropolitan centres, where they can get exploited by capitalists for a relatively miserable remuneration

b. Rent. Which is direct exploitation of poor people who can not afford to buy their own accommodation and forced to pay large part of their relatively miserable remuneration to you

c. Tax benefits. The form of exploitation where you legally avoid to make fair contribution into society, thus forcing poor (exploited by you twice already) people to make more contribution.

So, your philosophy is that you are comfortable screwing up poor people and making them to create your wealth, but see screwing up bigger exploiters as immoral.

What is that Mr Capitalist - corporate courtesy shark style or what?

For your own good, mate. Embrace the first investment rule -which is: "clean up rubbish out of your head, stop being your own enemy". If you do not like yourself, nobody is gonna like you.

Sorry for being harsh to you.

 

[Sim]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Sim' Hampel


Okay... all those who support antidisestablishmentarianism, raise their hands ;-)

 

[WebBoard]

The Valuer - ALARM BELLS RINGING

Reply: 6.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Mike TheBloodyIdiot


Thanks Waverly,

Your post it is music to my ears.

Thank you for shedding light on my ignorance regarding valuers that are employees of the bank. Generally must be a good thing - employee can't care less about being sued by bank, they mostly concerned to provide "customer service" and signing up more business for a lender. Drawback - if you want to do some good beating over the valuation you have to spank the bank.

Thank you for reminding about all those caveats and disclaimers. They are more for scaring off nervous people than of real value to the valuer. To my best knowledge, courts take very deem view of all this stuff. If you can prove negligence (basically, deviation from the real value of more than 10%) valuer is pretty much done.

Any hints on instructions?

 

[Tibor]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Tibor Bode


Hi Mike,

Don't worry mate I can handle more than that.
As the subject starts to get going away what this forum is about if you email me on
[email protected] there I am willing to continue this discussion, so not everyone will fall asleep.

As a closing on my part on this subject that anyone who has any problem with western democracy and for a blink thinks that the "other side" is better, to go and live in North Korea or China for 6 months. Full cure is guaranteed.

Capitalism has its own problems but it is still the best we humans managed to create,
and if we try to better it instead of getting bogged down in certain specifics, this place called earth will be better for all concerned.

Tibor

 

[WebBoard]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.1.2
From: Mike TheBloodyIdiot


Sim,

I do not know what this antidpsh...brnsdtblnism of yours is, but I do not like it.

To my experience nothing which starts with "anti" is about making money or making love.

Cheers mate.
Have a nice one.

 

[always_learning]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1.2
From: Always Learning


Hmmm,
<p>
Let me guess:
No sane person would ever attribute any kind of intelligence to a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel ?

Have I missed something? such using dodge receipts? Don't know, don't really care.

Actually in Belgium, which has huge land titles stamp duties, they have this down to a fine art. During settlement, bankers, both parties solicitor's, vendor, buyer all meet:
<ol>
<li> Everyone sit round the table and discusses the property, the purchase price. Everyone agree's.
<li> Banker's, Solicitor's, everyone except the vendor and buyer "excuse" themselves from the room, to have a "smoke and a coffee"
<li> Whilst vendor and buyer are alone together, paper bag with money is exchanged. (from buyer to vendor)
<li> Money is counted and accepted.
<li> Banker's, Solicitor's return to the room and ask "Everyone OK in here?"
<li> Smiles all round from the buyer, and seller
<li> Legal settlement continues.
</ol>
Latter government sends buyer nasty letter saying that they doubt the purchase price represented the real cost (ie cash must have changed hands) and fines the buyer for the perceived loss of stamp duty. Buyer still smiling because even after the fine, he is still ahead because the perceived loss from the government is way under the actual loss!
<p>

 

[Ross Sondergeld]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1.2.1
From: Ross Sondergeld


Hi Always Learning,


Subject: ALARM BELLS RINGING


You siad, "No sane person would ever attribute any kind of intelligence to a
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel ? "


Hey... you better be careful Always! I've got 2 "Cavalier King Charles
Spaniels"... And their brilliant little doggies...



Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

Buyerside Real Estate Mobile 0412 289 464
Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast [email protected]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

 

[WebBoard]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1.2.1.1
From: The Wife


Dare I add to this thread? I'm sure I am going to regret it.

Valuations

Some suggestions, if you have more than a few properties, you must be forming a substantial relationship with your bank person. I have found that the bank person is happy with my own personal estimates of any particular property, ok, maybe not everyone can get such a good relationship with a banker.

If you get a poor valuation, try not paying the bill, you know your never gonna sue anybody, non payment of the bill is easier until you receive some satisfaction.

If its a bank valuation and you dont have the opportunity to pay the bill, and you feel the valuation is wrong, get an independent, and ( presuming that the independent is closer to what you want) Take the independent valuation to the bank, and have a bit of a hissy fit, you will probably find that the bank will come to some middle ground with you.

Cashbacks? well, people have been doing them in different forms for a long time now.

Cheers, TW

 

[always_learning]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1.2.1.2
From: Always Learning


Always Learning had a Cavalier, I can say that I loved him almost as much as I love my children (now). Unfortunately, no traffic sense, RIP! <p>
Totally wonderful little doggies, my #1 recommended breed for families (with fences)!

 

[WebBoard]

Reply: 6.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1
From: Mike TheBloodyIdiot


Oooh, Nivia!


Finally we have a ray of sunshine descended on us!

You know, I knew, I was 100% sure you would come within 24 hours after I pronounce magic word "love"...

And if you mention "regret" doesn't it mean that I need to read between the lines of your unsurpassed wisdom?

Ok, I'll try. My weak mind seem to remember that someone on this forum used to call themselves "control freak". Should I then take seriously the statement that we should abandon all atempts to control the valuer, and instead try to please them and finally achieve half-result, namely expecting "probably... bank will come to some middle ground with you...". And you should further weaken your control by not payng the bill?

Come on, do not be so shy. All you wanted to say was: "Mike is naughty boy, and I will never-ever admit he is right... Even in smallest things!", or, translated to plain English: "Mike, how glad I am you are among us again."

You know, I missed you too.
Please do not get mad if I will keep disappearing for a while. I am too busy earning my first billion.

See you around,

Mike