An "old" man's thoughts on risk.

What a New Year's Day it has been on SS. I have had some interesting discussions reviewing last year's investment performance, but it is clear that I am not on the same wavelength as many here and I think I know why: It is the perception of risk and the tolerance of it.

Reasonably, I have a lower tolerance of risk because I have no recovery time left. If I stuff up, I'm out of the game. There is no get out of jail free card for me. Yet I can tolerate the volatility and gyrations of the share market better than most here, to the extent that I deliberately seek out high risk/high return stocks. Why is this?

That's where perception comes in. I have observed the political and economic climate for fourty years, since I first ran a service station on my own account, and the only thing I'm sure of is change. My experience is that property does not double every ten years even if it does so on average. You can go broke waiting if you are too heavily committed. If this happens once in every four decades I perceive a 1:4 risk that the strategy of high leverage on low returning property will fail me critically. That is too high for me so I will never go down that track with you. That is the death of a thousand cuts.

Apart from the risk of flatlining property prices there is also the risk of more dramatic events. The problems facing the world financial markets in general, and the US in particular, have been well canvased here so I will not cover that old ground, but what are the odds something bad will happen? If they are 1:10 that it will happen this year, that is too high for me. I'm a bit of a D&Ger but I cannot say with any certainty that the sky will fall at all and I certainly can't say it will happen next year, but I'm aware of the risks and try not to put myself in (financial) harm's way.

If it were to happen there is liquidity risk in property: Just when it becomes obvious that you must exit your positions, it has also dawned on others so a 20% drop in headline price can easily happen, but that is a total wipe out for anyone geared to 80% LVR. Let's not even think about the more aggressive souls.

Why leave yourself vulnerable to a risk with only a 1:10 chance? It isn't necessary. A little patience in your time-line for retirement would help by allowing more conservative LVRs. More careful targeting and timing will get you back on target.

I do understand the attraction of property when starting out. You can join the game with limited capital and time while you are still working for a living and raising a family, but it isn't the only game nor, IMHO, the best when you're nearing the end of the journey.

This post is starting to ramble a bit and I have to work tomorrow so I'll post what I have without careful checking or suggesting ways to reduce perceived risk (not the purpose of the post anyway) so please don't sweat the details, just let me know if you agree or disagree with the broad thrust of it.
 
Hi Sunfish:

Thanks for sharing your thought. I think there's quite a number of us on this forum who does not see property as the only way to invest. Asset switching and timing are critical strategies. I haven't seen enough to judge on the cyclic performance of the asset. I believe that I personally need to go through a severe correction/crash/depression for all asset classes before I can say my investment experience is complete.

Just like to mention that although shares are liquid, it may not be for everyone, as it does take a person a very long time to grasp the mentality of "cut your loss short and let your profit run", and given most ppl here are on wages/salaries, most can ill afford the time to do so. From my personal experience, share trading is exciting, challenging and rewarding, but I will definitely get myself booted out of the job if I continue to do trading (it took away my working time and sleeping time).

Properties, on the other hand, probably suited most ppl's idea of "set and forget", and more ppl are comfortable with it. By no means properties should deserve less research and due diligence, but at least it will still be there physically if things go wrong. That's probably the biggest difference between a dud property and delisted penny dreadfuls. Also, I think alex has mentioned that property price is also driven by average joe's desire to own a place, which is also fundamentally different from owning shares psychologically wise.
 
There is no doubt that there is a risk in property investment and I understand you concerns.

But with risk comes reward so if you invest and don't speculate you can minimise your risks.

I also agree the perception of risk changes with age . I am a much more conservative investor thn I was when I was younger. Probably a couple of reasons for this.

1. I don't have to work my money so hard anymore
2. I do not feel invincable as I did when I was young.
3. Now I know that I don't know everything - I guess when I was young I thought I understood it all.

One way of mitigating the risk of the strategy of buying high growth but negative cash flow properties is to maintain a buffer in a line of credit to service the debt.

How big should that buffer be?

It depends, amongst other things on the stage of the property cycle.

For example - if your properties were in Perth or Darwin today, where we may not expect strong growth you would need a buffer to cover you for a few years maybe 3 to 5 before you could expect to see sufficient capital growth to refinance your properties (and top up your LOC and buffers) using the increases.

You would need a smaller buffer if you were investing in the stronger markets of Melbourne and Brisbane.
 
Thoughts on both

I think you both have good points of view - sometimes a little reality check is appropriate.

Some things to think about:

1. Asset switching - the entry and exit costs on investment property are too steep to include in a portfolio if you want to use "liquidity" as the means to limit your risk.

2. Cycles depend on those factors that underpin the direction they are moving in. Cycles are inconsistent - as Sunfish stated earlier - property may double on average every 10 years, but it does not double every 10 years.

With rates of skilled immigration into Melbourne (for example), wages growth, parents releasing equity to purchase homes for their children, I can't see prices changing direction unless there is a significant change to the affordability of property, which will need to come from the lenders. Rates would need to shift to 12%+ by my estimates before there is a hard landing.

This property market is not unlike what the UK has experienced in the past 4 years - a shortage of property relative to population inside of 20kms from major cities, low / medium interest rates, easy borrowing terms, parents releasing equity to buy for their children which pushed prices further, increased immigration which did the same.

It has taken a major event - the UK banks' exposure to the US sub prime market - to bring about a crash in the UK property market.

If we look at our own situation here, we should be asking what significant event could bring about instability to our own lenders?

All of the major finance institutions are listed companies and subject to the ASX principles of continuous disclosure - each of them have confirmed that their exposure to US sub prime is limited.

What else lurks beneath?
 
Sunfish, I hear what you're saying and I agree that I probably won't always feel as cavalier as I do right now.

I'd also point out that the entire property market is unlikely to be stagnant if there's a softening - it's usually only particular sectors in particular cities. If one has a balanced portfolio of resi/commercial in several cities, it's hard to imagine that everything would soften.

But more importantly, consider that perceived risk is made up of two components:

1) the perceived likelihood that the event will happen (a property "crash" or soft property market), AND

2) the perceived consequences.

For myself, I don't kid myself that it won't happen (perceived likelihood is not high, but it is significant), but I don't consider the consequences too catastrophic for me personally. My portfolio is cashflow positive (even at very high LVR) so I can afford to ride it out.

Even if we do get wiped out, my husband (bless him!) earns a good income to support my property "habit" (though I wonder if crack wouldn't be cheaper sometimes ;)) and we feel confident that we could start over. And if there's been a "crash", then there'll be some good bargains out there!

Just another point of view, from a bullet-proof 37yo...

Tracey in Brisbane
 
That's where perception comes in.
.......and the only thing I'm sure of is change.

My experience is that property does not double every ten years even if it does so on average. You can go broke waiting if you are too heavily committed.
...

Apart from the risk of flatlining property prices there is also the risk of more dramatic events.
...
but what are the odds something bad will happen?
...
Agree with all you've said.

Change happens all the time - many D&G threads here assume that nothing else will change except the premise of the thread (eg sub-prime, baby-boomers stop spending, oil price > $100). If house prices fall 20%, presumably yields will rise by 20%, so a different (value-oriented) investor will get some time in the sun - it's been quiet for us for a few years now.

And something bad happens every year - opposition leaders get assassinated, skyscrapers get rammed, credit gets crunched... 95% of the time a little bit changes and the world adapts, and the most noticable flow-on effect is big scary headlines & a new SS thread discussing how a certain chain of events could lead to IP falling by X%:rolleyes:. Bad stuff happening is normal - get used to it:).


Anyone who has a long term plan (like most B&Hers here) needs to mitigate risk. eg Keep a few months outgoings in a LOC, diversify into other asset classes, get income insurance, buy +ve c/f.

To reduce risk significantly, don't use the 'buy when you can (just) afford it' methodology - it's susceptible to IR rises and long flat (or down) periods or job loss. Using a 'good value & pays for itself' method provides a higher margin of safety, but the downside is that there is usually a small window of opportunity in every cycle when this happens. Let the OOs buy whenever they 'need' to, and then the investors can cherry pick when it makes good investment sense.


IMO the ability to adapt to change is a far more useful attribute than being able to forecast it. And adapting to change is far,far easier if you plan for it.
 
Reasonably, I have a lower tolerance of risk because I have no recovery time left. If I stuff up, I'm out of the game. There is no get out of jail free card for me. Yet I can tolerate the volatility and gyrations of the share market better than most here, to the extent that I deliberately seek out high risk/high return stocks. Why is this?

I’m guessing that you’re more comfortable with the sharemarket because you can cut losses if the market turns against you. You can’t do that as quickly with property, but there are ways to mitigate it (lower LVRs, undrawn LOCs, hold cash and shares that you can sell quickly). Risk tolerance isn’t always logical.

My experience is that property does not double every ten years even if it does so on average. You can go broke waiting if you are too heavily committed.

No, property doesn’t double EVERY ten years. There will be long periods when it does nothing or goes down, and there will be periods when it booms. If you have a horizon of 20 years or more, you’ll do well. Assuming you survive the inevitable busts, and that’s where the risk management comes in.

If it were to happen there is liquidity risk in property: Just when it becomes obvious that you must exit your positions, it has also dawned on others so a 20% drop in headline price can easily happen, but that is a total wipe out for anyone geared to 80% LVR. Let's not even think about the more aggressive souls.

A few points here. Negative equity doesn’t automatically mean the banks will call in your loans. If you can still make the payments, it’s less likely that the bank will call in your loan regardless. So cashflow management is even more important than LVR management. But the point is taken: high LVR usually means less cashflow (because you’re paying more interest relative to rental income.

Why leave yourself vulnerable to a risk with only a 1:10 chance? It isn't necessary. A little patience in your time-line for retirement would help by allowing more conservative LVRs. More careful targeting and timing will get you back on target.

I do understand the attraction of property when starting out. You can join the game with limited capital and time while you are still working for a living and raising a family, but it isn't the only game nor, IMHO, the best when you're nearing the end of the journey.

I doubt property looked like such a great way to start out in the early 90s. The last 10 years have been a great time for property. Is it the best when nearing the end of the journey? Cashflow-wise there are better investments. Depends how you define the end of the journey. For me, given my situation, it’s not a matter of I’ll keep working and then when I have enough income to live on I’ll quit. I want the lifestyle (not only the material goods but the time to spend with family, etc) as well as the money.

Bottom line, we’re all different. Some of us just seem to be wired differently when it comes to risk. For example, there are plenty of people who have become rich trading shares, commodities, FX, etc. But I don’t see myself doing it. Why? I don’t know. I do know I am more interested in property than these other asset classes. Is it because the one is better than the other? No. Why do some people like certain sports? Why do some people like sports and some don’t? It’s a personal thing.

I can only conclude that there are certain asset classes that ‘fit’ how our brains are wired. Some people can excel in more than one asset class.
Alex
 
What a New Year's Day it has been on SS. I have had some interesting discussions reviewing last year's investment performance, but it is clear that I am not on the same wavelength as many here and I think I know why: It is the perception of risk and the tolerance of it.

Reasonably, I have a lower tolerance of risk because I have no recovery time left. If I stuff up, I'm out of the game. There is no get out of jail free card for me. Yet I can tolerate the volatility and gyrations of the share market better than most here, to the extent that I deliberately seek out high risk/high return stocks. Why is this?

That's where perception comes in. I have observed the political and economic climate for fourty years, since I first ran a service station on my own account, and the only thing I'm sure of is change. My experience is that property does not double every ten years even if it does so on average. You can go broke waiting if you are too heavily committed. If this happens once in every four decades I perceive a 1:4 risk that the strategy of high leverage on low returning property will fail me critically. That is too high for me so I will never go down that track with you. That is the death of a thousand cuts.
Sunfish,maybe stop reading all the posts by the D-G's on Hot Copper half those 3 cents overnight tossers all think IT'S 1929 all over again 3 TIMES A week ,real estate is and always will be a market within a market,If the value drops 20% over a few years not going to worry me i don't owe anyone anything,it's been a good start to the year so far as long as you stay ahead of the pack,was lucky;) last week with PAG at $1.725 ..willair..
BTW i'm 52 so i guess i'm an old man too:)..
 
I'm probably the second oldest codger on this site currently, and my view on property is always positive,

BUT...

Older people usually tend to have been around the block a few times, have seen the ups and downs and get to know what sort of levels of risk are good and bad.

I believe that everyone should go into this game with a safety net underneath them.

I keep reading about how you can get a 95% loan for this, and No Doc loan for that, etc, and it makes me rather nervous; especially when I know that there are a lot of newbies, young couples with younger kids, people with bad money habits and lots of consumer debt, all wanting to take the big plunge.

I also hear things like 'capitalising the interest', Loan Mortgage Insurance, 'never pay off the mortgage', 'maximise the LVR to maximise the returns'; these types of strategies require lots of exposure, and are recipes for disaster; not just for newbies, but for experienced investors alike.

At the end of the day, we all have our own tolerance to risk, but from my experience, the younger you are, the more bullet-proof you feel, and investing in property is just not like that.

It's a bit like snow-skiing; the 15 year olds are twice as fast to the bottom as me (only because my brakes are on), and never think they will crash, until they do. The clean-up is big. Been there, done that and learned that lesson. Now I go down at about 70%; still having lots of fun, but no broken bones.

You can't put a young/inexperienced head on old shoulders, and in this game where there are people telling you to jump in all the time in the media, in the Bank, in the r/e office, it's hard to not want to join in.

I think the best mindset to have is:

1. something can and will go wrong,
2. invest from the strongest position you can,
3. keep the LVR as low as possible- below 70%, or if you have to start higher; get down to this level asap,
4. always reduce all debt as you can afford to do so.

The idea is to make money, not lose it, and there is no race.
 
high risk stocks have high yields - you basically answered your own Q.

as above - there is no "race" to make money. you don;t get rich by being quick, you get rich by being smart.

wait for the good trades.

set your stop loss, make it automatic if you have to.

set your profit target to sell half. when you sell half, review your stop loss again.

set your further profit target to sell a MIN further 25% - or even exit trade. when you hit that profit target, review your stop loss again.

winning isn't just about protecting your capital - you also have to protect your profit.

rolling up stop losses is a sure fire way to do this AND disassociate yourself with the trade.

so who cares if it's a volatile trade or not if you are protecting both your capital AND your profit at the same time?
 
With rates of skilled immigration into Melbourne (for example), wages growth, parents releasing equity to purchase homes for their children, I can't see prices changing direction unless there is a significant change to the affordability of property, which will need to come from the lenders. Rates would need to shift to 12%+ by my estimates before there is a hard landing.

This property market is not unlike what the UK has experienced in the past 4 years - a shortage of property relative to population inside of 20kms from major cities, low / medium interest rates, easy borrowing terms, parents releasing equity to buy for their children which pushed prices further, increased immigration which did the same.

It has taken a major event - the UK banks' exposure to the US sub prime market - to bring about a crash in the UK property market.

If we look at our own situation here, we should be asking what significant event could bring about instability to our own lenders?

All of the major finance institutions are listed companies and subject to the ASX principles of continuous disclosure - each of them have confirmed that their exposure to US sub prime is limited.

What else lurks beneath?

What if something such as the fallout from the subprime mess in the US over the coming year or so was to effect one of the Mortgage Insurers in Australia.

From my understanding there are really on 2 (or 2 big ones) GE and PMI.

Now of course everyone is going to say nothing can happen to GE has they are one of biggest companies in the world.

But suppose one of the Mortgage Insurers went out of business. People who have loans with a bank and borrowed more than 80% of their property could have their loan insured with this mortgage insurer.

If the insurer goes bust, the banks butt would no longer be covered so is it likely that they would force the borrower to reduce their LVR to less than 80%? If the borrower didn't have the funds to start with, most likely they wouldn't be able to do so - so does that mean there could be a heap of fire sales forcing property values to drop?

I think it could be possible to see some of the banks re-thinking the LVR levels they currently give as a result of the credit crunch.
 
Welcome back SC, Where ya bin?

But that comment stood out when I read it too. It's sorta what I mean when I say "Dance close to the exits".
 
Again another word of wisdom from keith :)

Cliff

I agree.....

Have always tried to keep in mind the Boy Scouts Motto (see below)

And to me the highest form of intelligence is the ability to adapt....
Darwinian Survival Advantage makes a lot of sense.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Motto#Baden-Powell_on_.22Be_Prepared.22



Baden-Powell on "Be Prepared"

In English, this motto is most commonly Be Prepared, and it is no coincidence that this motto can be shortened to B. P. and Robert Baden-Powell, the founder of the movement, used to shorten his surname into B.-P.
In the third part of Scouting for Boys Robert Baden-Powell explains the meaning of the phrase:
The Scout Motto is: BE PREPARED which means you are always in a state of readiness in mind and body to do your DUTY.
  • Be Prepared in Mind by having disciplined yourself to be obedient to every order, and also by having thought out beforehand any accident or situation that might occur, so that you know the right thing to do at the right moment, and are willing to do it.
  • Be Prepared in Body by making yourself strong and active and able to do the right thing at the right moment, and do it. [1]
"To do the right thing at the right moment" can be extreme:
"Where a man has gone so far as to attempt suicide, a Scout should know what to do with him."[2]"BE PREPARED to die for your country if need be, so that when the moment arrives you may charge home with confidence, not caring whether you are going to be killed or not" [3] Also, the first handbook for Girl Guides, How Girls Can Help to Build Up the Empire by Agnes and Robert Baden-Powell, similarly explains:
The motto of the Girl Guides is "Be Prepared". Why is this?
It is because, like the other Guides, you have to be prepared at any moment to face difficulties and even dangers by knowing what to do and how to do it. [4]
 
"How Girls Can Help to Build Up theEmpire" ????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now isn't that the most chauvinistic piece of crap?

What was Agnes thinking?
 
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