Anti Union homies

[weg]

My husband is fully compliant because Workcover come down on you very hard if you aren't.

My unionised workplace has things go wrong in respect to injury, all the time, but mostly that's because it's a dangerous workplace to start with, and sometimes staff become careless or complacent, or because sometimes it couldn't be foreseen.

Regardless of unions, work doesn't generally try to get out of their obligations as the repercussions wouldn't be good.

Btw, the union at my workplace does not pay for any legal advice or help out injured persons, monetary or otherwise.

 

[kathryn d]

This country (and employees and employers alike) need to realise we still have a very rough road ahead. Endless wage and condition increases are making us globally uncompetative. Forget about wage freezes...we need wage reductions...forget about paid maternaty leave and all the other ridiculous benefits we enjoy, we can't afford it...

As an outsider, I completely agree.
Here, people who work evening or night shifts, usually get paid a shift premium rate of 25%+ .
Where I worked previously we received 30 cents per hour (av) for those shifts....big difference.

In 1990, my husband worked at the factory (unionized) and they were given the option of taking a 10% wage decrease for 12 months, or the factory would close. Somehow I can't imagine Australia doing that.

Lets take rents for example...(since that is what we are all here for)
We do not require the government to tell us how much to charge. We know when we can charge more, and when we need to reduce rents. It's all about supply and demand.

IMO, I think wages should be the same. First the welfare problem needs to be dealt with, otherwise everyone would just go on benefits.
When jobs are plentiful, people will go where the money is.When jobs are scarce, and welfare isn't an attractive option..people are willing to work for less, or take multiple jobs.

Unions are nothing more than legalized bullying.
Either you pay or we will hit you. In this case hitting you, is taking away whatever service/product the company is able to provide.

EDIT: In Canada we pay equally with our employer into Employment Insurance. It is not funded by the government at all. Should we get laid off, we receive 55% of our pay, which is based on the previous 26 weeks. This is good for employers, becasue this allows them to downsize during slow periods, but it will keep people with an income, so they will be available to work when that company picks up again. Reduces the training, the company needs to do.
This also pays for maternity/paternity leave...up to 1 year.

 

[nhg]

Why is it that 50 years we could build huge infrastructure projects easily and at an affordable cost. Nowdays, everything costs at least a billion and takes 5 times longer than it used to.

Oh thats right.. we used to have affordable labour forces. Now everyone wants top dollar for minimal work... one of my construction clients was saying the other that they are having to pay 70k+ for a site labourer to shovel dirt on a building site.

My boys are making almost $3000 per week shoveling concrete. It's hard work, I wouldnt deny that. Yet they still scream poor. It's a joke. They can never earn enough to be satisfied, and all risk free.

No Union in my field, we all negotiate our contracts. And I have seen some shockers, comes down the the individuals skills and bargaining abilities, which I much prefer.

 

[lizzie]

Unions responsible for jobs leaving our shores.

That's the way I understand your wording above. The rest of your post is in complete contrast to this.

Next time you have a little sook about losing your job just remember the union people who died trying the rid this country of manufacturing and the jobs that went along with it.

Hubby (in management position) is learning to drive a bobcat and digger tomorrow in anticipation of union strikes coming soon - due to no pay rises in the rounds this year.

However - none of management has a payrise either. Payrises will mean staff being sacked. Personally I'd rather have a lesser pay and more people employed. It's not like any of them are on peanuts.

 

[DaveM]

My boys are making almost $3000 per week shoveling concrete. It's hard work, I wouldnt deny that. Yet they still scream poor. It's a joke. They can never earn enough to be satisfied, and all risk free.

So they earn $150k shovelling concrete and are blowing it all on stuff and have no money left? What will happen when the trades boom ends and they are shovelling concrete for 40k?

 

[HotRod]

So they earn $150k shovelling concrete and are blowing it all on stuff and have no money left? What will happen when the trades boom ends and they are shovelling concrete for 40k?

They blow it on less expensive stuff?

 

[nhg]

So they earn $150k shovelling concrete and are blowing it all on stuff and have no money left? What will happen when the trades boom ends and they are shovelling concrete for 40k?

Doesn't make a difference, they spend it all anyways and ask for a pay advance every week.

*sigh* It's a generalisation, though true in most cases.

 

[fernfurn]

Have absolutely no time for the unions. Loads of boys who werent academically minded could choose apprenticeships and loved working outside etc. until the unions stuck their noses in and demanded huge wage rises for them. They were unskilled and couldnt really do much for the first year and so no-one would hire an apprentice anymore, hence now apprenticeships are scarce as hens teeth and all the young boys are sitting at home on the dole. But the real killer for me was being threatened by a union official over negotiations when I didnt see it his way, not only threatening me, but asking where my kids went to school!

 

[joanmc]

^^^ Same for me fernfurn. I was threatened by the head of hubby's union. I have no time for them any more. If they are prepared to threaten members then I don't see much benefit.

 

[lizzie]

Here, people who work evening or night shifts, usually get paid a shift premium rate of 25%+ .
Where I worked previously we received 30 cents per hour (av) for those shifts....big difference.

Which is one reason a lot of our production jobs (canning etc) are actually going to New Zealand ... a first world country ... because the government removed penalty rates for outside "normal" working hours shifts (ie Mon-Fri 9-5).

Believe it or not, some people would prefer to work outside normal hours due to childcare or lifestyle.

 

[Ideo]

Never been a member of a union, never needed to. I was softly hassled to join the public sector union when I was working at the State Government, but I was a well paid professional with good conditions, so why the hell would I need to?

However, for some sectors of society they still have a role to play imo. But that role is largely going as all western economies change. The big issue will be when there is a move towards unions in third world countries. That needs to happen.

It is part of the modernisation process and needs to be respected as part of the overall evolution of society, but that does not mean they are blameless either.

 

[Aaron_C]

Held back from posting in this thread regarding unions.........but god i hate them.

By far the worst ones are the construction unions in their militancy and utter waste. They use safety as a way to muscle in on a site.

 

[locko24]

Video on SMH homepage thismorning about 12 year old coal miners in India.

Only a matter of time before the unions step in and ruin it for him on his $8/day wage.

Soon the jobs will go offshore from India (I'm thinking Bangladesh or Brazil) and India, like Australia will be left with overpriced labor and not enough work.

Curse the Unions I say.

Happily many of the miners are unlikely to survive given the hazardous occupation so that should balance the numbers somewhat and alleviate the problem in part.

Surely you don't believe this to be a union issue?

This involves basic human rights.

Unless of course you're suggesting there should be an award rate for under 12 year old underground coal miners...

 

[geoffw]

Believe it or not, some people would prefer to work outside normal hours due to childcare or lifestyle.

The majority of my employees were students who also preferred working outside normal hours. There was a provision in my workplace agreement that, in return for a slightly higher hourly rate for every hour worked, overtime hours would not invoke penalties. This was above board and approved by Fair Work Australia.

 

[geoffw]

In all of my years on both sides of employment I have only had one direct contact with unions. I was labouring during Uni vacation (many years back) and due to a mistake I made I was fired. I wasn't a union member, but the union still approached management on my behalf to discuss the matter. As I only had another week to work anyhow, they were satisfied with management's explanation. Fair on both sides.

I offered to join the union but they suggested it wasn't needed.

 

[geoffw]

Surely you don't believe this to be a union issue?

This involves basic human rights.

Unless of course you're suggesting there should be an award rate for under 12 year old underground coal miners...

If there were unions then this wouldn't be happening. Unions arose from exploitation of workers many years ago, and took action to reduce the exploitation.

 

[Peter_Tersteeg]

My experiences with unions have generally been negative. In the 80s working in a large retail store, the union official came in on Saturday morning to let us know that they would be campaining against extended weekend trading hours. The casual staff were unaimously for more weekend work as they'd be the primary recipiants of it and the pay rates were quite good. The union refused to acknlowedge this.

When staff cuts were made in the 90s, the unions supported teh full time staff, nothing was given to the casuals.

After uni I went into IT. A union official showed up at the office one day asking if we'd like to join. We'd be guaranteed a certain pay rate and working conditions. We were all quite happy with our working conditions and our employer was meeting the market for pay rates which were 30% higher than the union offering.

My observation of unions is they're there to ultimately serve their own existance. In many cases this is done via representation of their members, but if you're not a member that's in a major voting block, the representation is minimal.

Unions also tend to favour people who are replaceable in the workforce, the positions where it's easy for the employer to find 10 more people to do their job. Unskilled labour tends to get decent union representation. Professionals in positions where they can walk into another job because there's someone willing to pay more generally don't give a toss about unions - unions are not needed.

As an employer I can't think of anything potentially more disruptive to my business. I shouldn't have to answer to anyone as long as I treat my staff well and pay them fairly. If I were forced to comply with a unions rules, I suspect my staff would find a lot of small perks they enjoy would suddenly disappear!

I do acknowledge that union representation is necessary for some people however, but in the extreme unions can also be a distructive force. At the same time if many businesses had their way, working conditions for many people would be far diminished to the point of no rights at all.

The two major policital parties appear to represent something of a see-saw. Put Labor in power and things tip towards the employees, often it goes overboard and criples industry to the point where people loose the jobs they were trying to protect. Under Liberal, the employers tend to do quite well in part due to the errosion of workers rights, but at least may of them have the opportuinity for a job (even if it's not an ideal one). I think the ideal point is somewhere in between, but human nature and greed on both sides simply doesn't allow things to stay in equilibrium for long.

As landlord we hate tenants unions. They take advantage of laws and it seems that even if the tentant is in the wrong, the landlord has to just suck it up. It's not to hard to imagine that with no regulation and enforcement, there's a lot of people here who would lock tentants in decade long leases, paying for all costs & maintenance, with no way out.

 

[cu@thetop]

Surely you don't believe this to be a union issue?

This involves basic human rights.

Unless of course you're suggesting there should be an award rate for under 12 year old underground coal miners...

Not a union issue- these people are capable of negotiating their own wage.

Of course it is a human rights issue. Everyone on this forum would hopefully be appalled by the prospect of 12 y o miners. But there is a big gray area between that and work conditions where we all think the employer is being screwed over. I was suggesting that unions do serve a purpose in setting minimum work standards. No doubt India will unionize eventually- if it hasn't started already. Worker's lots will improve and the unions will be forgotten.

Capital will move to cheaper markets.

it is the wheel of life I suppose.

I was at school when I was 12 and my biggest drama was whether I had vegemite or a peanut paste sandwich. I may have had the unions to thank for that indirectly I suppose.

 

[lizzie]

Surely you don't believe this to be a union issue?

This involves basic human rights.

Unless of course you're suggesting there should be an award rate for under 12 year old underground coal miners...

I totally agree that this is both a human rights AND union issue. Unions were formed initially to improve rights and conditions working in the mines in the UK - oh - a couple of hundred years ago (although considered illegal for the first hundred).

Right up until the mid 1900's unions had a place to improve the conditions, safety and pay of employees ... but now ... in first world countries ... they really have outlived their usefulness and appear to be tinkering and pot stirring merely to justify their existance.

If only they would now take their cushy existance and head to Asia and Africa ... and do some real work

 

[Trippy]

Errrr...as I was saying:

BUILDING unions have been put on notice that extravagant wage levels are threatening jobs.

Construction firms and developers warn that the industry is in a slump and high labour costs are unsustainable.

The State Government says that construction has suffered too long from spiralling costs and industrial disputes.

Beck Property Group director Sam Beck said the industry desperately needed a review of wage rates and other costs.

"Cost of materials, of course, go up, but the labour cost has gone up exponentially over the last 10 years," Mr Beck said.

"It's getting to a point now where it's almost too expensive to build."

Labourers on major CBD sites earn about $120,000 a year excluding allowances and enjoy special allowances, such as 26 rostered days off, 12 rain/heat days, 10 public holidays and 20 annual leave days.
has been estimated that apartments built with union labour cost 33 per cent more to build than those using non-union workers.

Mr Beck said he wasn't a union basher, saying they promoted safety on sites and looked after workers' welfare.

"But it's not much good having workers that are being paid so much that they don't get work, and that's what's happening in the industry at the moment," he said.

"There was a lot of work two or three years ago, it's drying up and we've got workers out there who still require their same rate, but the issue is the industry can't afford it".

Master Builders Association of Victoria executive director Brian Welch said that projects were struggling to get off the ground and employers were warning of big layoffs soon.

"They simply don't have the work to sustain their current work force," he said.

"If there isn't moderation shown at the next EBA then I fear that the building industry is going to go into a massive slump," he said.

State Industrial Relations Minister Robert Clarke said cost increases had threatened Victoria's ability to afford desperately needed infrastructure.

"Labor's desalination plant project set a new standard for high-cost, low-productivity wage deals, and this has flowed through to much of the rest of the Victorian construction industry," he said.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...r-vital-projects/story-e6freon6-1226625410345

Pattern bargaining at it's best...."The guys at the desal plant are getting these rates so all construction sites should be on the same rates...."