Apartment Supply in Sydney - (Look at those Cranes)

:eek: some sweeping statements...What type of investments do you think are sound then?

Leo

It's not whether or not the investment is sound, it's more to do with the construction. I'm generally of the "Buy and hold and hold" camp and would like to think I can hold the asset for as long as I like (20-30 years).

I don't have faith in these companies to build structures well, generally. Many that I see are backyard guys which set up a company for each project and often close that company down once the project is done (or strip it of assets) so that if or when the bodycorp or whoever comes knocking, nothing is to be found.

As far as sound investments, I go for greyhounds and semi precious metals.
 
Hi Television,

Do you then buy your units pre 60s to 70s?

Also you said "residential construction is dominated by cowboys" and you wouldn't trust it to "not develop major issues"...

So im still not sure what u think is a good residential property investment.
 
Hi Television,

Do you then buy your units pre 60s to 70s?

Also you said "residential construction is dominated by cowboys" and you wouldn't trust it to "not develop major issues"...

So im still not sure what u think is a good residential property investment.

I have bought one, yeah. My (perhaps faulty) logic is that generally any issues will have been noted by now.

I meant medium to high density residential construction.

Good residential property investment would be dependent on the individual investor.
 
I have bought one, yeah. My (perhaps faulty) logic is that generally any issues will have been noted by now.

I meant medium to high density residential construction.

Good residential property investment would be dependent on the individual investor.

ok fair enough TV.

I generally think that medium to high density residential units make bad investments anyway and would never buy one. I wouldn't be surprised that their poor construction too. Especially for some of the high rises.
 
greyhounds? do tell, sounds interesting :)

That was me taking the **** :p

The capacity for error in residential construction is massive. Think about how many balconies and bathrooms are waterproofed. Do you think the foreman inspects each and every one to make sure it's being done correctly? Do you think they want with the best contractor with the job or the contractor with the best price for the job?

Again, I have no hard and fast statistics, this is only from word of mouth etc. in and around the industry. I'd happily rent in an apartment block like this, but as far as ownership, no thanks.
 
Hey datto and op, wondering what your thoughts are on the credibility of the developers constructing these apartments in Liverpool at the moment?? The influx of construction is crazy at the moment. Prices look OK for units in the area but ? am not sure about post construction costs which will be passed on to to the purchasers.

I'm flabbergasted by the amount of construction there.

I am even more flabbergasted when I hear that projects are sold out eg Solis.

My thoughts on the credibility of developers is no different to any entrepreneur who is out to make the max buck. I don't trust 'em.

What post construction costs can they pass on?
 
I'm flabbergasted by the amount of construction there.

I am even more flabbergasted when I hear that projects are sold out eg Solis.

My thoughts on the credibility of developers is no different to any entrepreneur who is out to make the max buck. I don't trust 'em.

What post construction costs can they pass on?

Well unfortunately anything near train station in Sydney, you are going to get more and more unit developments. Old houses get knocked down for units. I assume you have a unit at Liverpool?

Even in Kellyville, Hills Shire Council are in process to approve large scale unit development next to station.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...traffic-concerns/story-fngr8gwi-1226803955708

Sooner or later, anywhere near train station you will see massive number of units surrounding the stations.
 
Well unfortunately anything near train station in Sydney, you are going to get more and more unit developments. Old houses get knocked down for units. I assume you have a unit at Liverpool?

Even in Kellyville, Hills Shire Council are in process to approve large scale unit development next to station.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...traffic-concerns/story-fngr8gwi-1226803955708

Sooner or later, anywhere near train station you will see massive number of units surrounding the stations.

True, this will continue over time - dwellings are becoming more dense around key infrastructure.

Go outer south west - pretty sure Leumeah even has units around the station.

I'm not so sure its unfortunate - personally I think its good that Sydney supply is responding to demographic shifts.

Cheers,
Redom
 
True, this will continue over time - dwellings are becoming more dense around key infrastructure.

Go outer south west - pretty sure Leumeah even has units around the station.

I'm not so sure its unfortunate - personally I think its good that Sydney supply is responding to demographic shifts.

Cheers,
Redom

I think if the developers actually build the units properly and with good quality, then it is not so bad. It is just that the build quality has gone down the toilet over last few decades. It may look good in pictures but then you see all the surprises when do an actual inspection.

Of course, anyone with units as IP in those areas are most affected. However it is good for tenants and FHBers who needs to get into the market.
 
I think if the developers actually build the units properly and with good quality, then it is not so bad. It is just that the build quality has gone down the toilet over last few decades. It may look good in pictures but then you see all the surprises when do an actual inspection.

Of course, anyone with units as IP in those areas are most affected. However it is good for tenants and FHBers who needs to get into the market.

Hmm I rekon most people could easily 'overlook' this- its very easy to go to a shinny new building and just assume its all ok. It's probably a mistake of mine - tbh I wouldn't really know what to look for to distinguish good/average quality build apart from the usual 'quality of fixtures, etc', but that's all reflected in the price.

Given all the red tape around - especially in NSW - people may just assume that the regulators ensure a certain standard.

Going by the comments on this thread - there's a lot more DD to be done.
 
Hmm I rekon most people could easily 'overlook' this- its very easy to go to a shinny new building and just assume its all ok. It's probably a mistake of mine - tbh I wouldn't really know what to look for to distinguish good/average quality build apart from the usual 'quality of fixtures, etc', but that's all reflected in the price.

Given all the red tape around - especially in NSW - people may just assume that the regulators ensure a certain standard.

Going by the comments on this thread - there's a lot more DD to be done.

Honestly, unless it's really shocking, issues with build quality might not be apparent at first inspection. Things like waterproofing issues, incorrectly prepared subgrade/foundations, inadequate or incorrect placement of reinforcement in concrete, etc. etc. are all impossible to see with the naked eye.
 
Honestly, unless it's really shocking, issues with build quality might not be apparent at first inspection. Things like waterproofing issues, incorrectly prepared subgrade/foundations, inadequate or incorrect placement of reinforcement in concrete, etc. etc. are all impossible to see with the naked eye.

Good advice - probably not for this thread, but how do i pick up on this (independent building report?)? I've never even tried too look for some of the things you mentioned and taken it for granted.
 
Good advice - probably not for this thread, but how do i pick up on this (independent building report?)? I've never even tried too look for some of the things you mentioned and taken it for granted.

All advice is general, I am by no means the smartest or most construction professional in the world. The answer is largely based on my own opinion and understanding of the industry from a junior.

Generally, an independent building report won't pick up on the issues that I mentioned as most of them are concealed. Waterproofing is covered by tiles, foundations are covered by structure, reinforcement is covered by concrete.

If the apartments have been around for 2-3 years you can read the strata report and the minutes of the meetings to see if issues have been identified, but if you're trying to buy something OTP, the only thing you can try and rely on is the builder's reputation. I prefer larger tier 2 type builders who have a track record of completing large commercial and residential projects.

My reasoning for preferring a builder who has a proven track record in both commercial and residential is due to the more rigorous requirements placed by commercial construction on both developer and builder, and the different ways that commercial vs. residential developments operate.

When referring to large commercial developments, I mean projects with values upwards of $20M and ideally, built for well known developers (Abacus, Goodman, Australand, etc.).These large and experienced developers often retain control of the asset once it is constructed, meaning they are more interested in the long term prospects of the property. Not only that, but in order to attract good tenants, a developer will often have to have a good reputation, or at least be well known.
This means it is in their best interest to ensure that their asset is of a high quality AND that someone else is contractually liable if there are issues with the building.
These developers seek professional advice about obtaining their new asset and engage professional, experienced consultants and professionals to protect their interests during the construction process which generally means there is more rigorous standards applied to the construction of the building. Additionally, people within these companies often have relationships with other development companies and occasionally discuss projects.
Thus, from a builders perspective in these commercial projects, contracts are more onerous, standards are higher, and thus risk is greater. Which scares many crappy/dodgy builders off and often means that only well established, intelligent builders are able to compete long term in these types of areas. If you're not smart enough, you try and cut corners, make silly mistakes and then get ground in to the dust.

Contrast this to a residential development, where the value from the project is by the developer generally shortly after a project is completed. They sell as many apartments OTP as possible and rarely (in my experience) do they hold any significant number of properties. Which means that the developer is not necessarily as concerned about the long term prospects of the property, but is more motivated by the immediate returns.
If they can get lower construction costs, they can either lower their sale price or obtain more profit. Additionally, these residential developers don't necessarily need to rely on long term reputation to sell their products. The buyers they are dealing with are less sophisticated and more emotional than buyers/tenants in a commercial deal. They're more likely to be motivated by beautiful brochures and marketing material plus some shiny fittings, and less likely to be aware of potential issues.
Thus, a developer can maximise their own profit by choosing the cheapest builder. So long as the builder is quick, he does not necessarily need to be an amazing builder. Because, as discussed, the residential developer will typically want their returns now, and are not as concerned with long term prospects.
Once they've been sold, the apartments are owned by a diverse group of people, generally unified under a strata agreement but still a collection of people who aren't particularly learned in legal procedures. They can maybe complain to 5-10 people about how the build quality of their apartment is shocking, but often don't and even then, it's only a small pool.

TL;DR
Rely on reputation. Builders who build lots of large commercial projects as well as residential projects are more likely to be better builders than those who only rely on residential projects. This is because they are held to a higher standard by commercial developers, rather than residential developers.


Apologies if this doesn't make a lot of sense, I probably need to go back to year 8 English and learn how to write an argument well!
 
Agree with Television. We went with a residential developer with our first apartment purchase some years back and there were numerous problems with the entire development with 2-3 years when things started to break down. Before we purchased, we did get an assessment, however there are problems that cannot be visibly seen.

Long story short, our apartment was one of handful with no issues whatsoever however the entire complex as a whole dragged down the prices a bit. Bought at $331.25K in late 2007 and sold for $376.8K in late 2011. The 'profit' of 45K was the same as paying rent in the suburb for the same period of time.

Always assess the reputation of the developer.

Of course there is the argument of buying in a small vs large complex, and I would say the reputable developers tend to work on the larger developments.
 
Poor quality construction has always been around. I got a unit in Liverpool (built mid 70s). A few years back the outside staircase started sinking. The footings were only 2 courses of bricks! No concrete or reo. How the heck did the council pass it. The stair case itself is constructed of bricks n concrete and must weigh a few tonnes at least. It could have crushed someone if it toppled over.

I wont mention the spalling balconies and sandy brick joints. Bags of cement must have been real expensive in those days lol. I hope that builder had a triple bypass and had a cross eyed surgeon lol.
 
Poor quality construction has always been around. I got a unit in Liverpool (built mid 70s). A few years back the outside staircase started sinking. The footings were only 2 courses of bricks! No concrete or reo. How the heck did the council pass it. The stair case itself is constructed of bricks n concrete and must weigh a few tonnes at least. It could have crushed someone if it toppled over.

I wont mention the spalling balconies and sandy brick joints. Bags of cement must have been real expensive in those days lol. I hope that builder had a triple bypass and had a cross eyed surgeon lol.

Certainly not saying that once upon a time there was a golden age where builders weren't dodgy *******s... just that hopefully with the older ones the issues have been identified by now :eek:
 
It will interesting to see what happens .

I'm always puzzled as to why docklands has such a bad rap in Melbourne . We've stayed there and it is so convenient to the center of Melbourne . Prices for a similarly located place in established Sydney suburbs would be much higher .

Docklands has a lot of new apartments being built at the moment, the only reason prices are so low there is that there was so much construction, much like darling harbour when it was first being developed. Once the supply of undeveloped land runs out, there'll be a boom in prices. The other good thing about docklands is that along with residential, offices are also being built, pre-tenanted by large companies moving out of Melbourne CBD. so the jobs are there too.
I'm selling some apartments in docklands, I won't link anything to them here but feel free to pm me if you're interested, or call me.
 
I wont mention the spalling balconies and sandy brick joints. Bags of cement must have been real expensive in those days lol.

Odds are, given the rough decade you listed, that the mortar joints are just sand/lime/water mix..

I worked briefly for a developer building low rise apartments in Perth. Hated it. Everything was about the quantity not the quality. We were paying "tradesmen" peanuts and getting monkeys. It was near impossible to get them back to fix their errors, and the errors were impossible to manage as it was large teams churning out he work quicker than you could inspect and etc.

Much prefer being back building high end homes. Most the trades are true masters of their skill. It is all about the end product and level of finish.
 
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