Are there leaks and water penetration Issues In This Property?

[missgreeneyes]

Hi
The picture of the wooden floor was taken just outside my bathroom.
I reported it to strata, who had the shower base re-done. Tiles removed, waterproofing re-done and new tiles put in.
Now the paint on the wall just to the right of the photo (it is the opposite of the wall that the showerhead and taps are on) is bubbling and peeling. However, the wall feels dry and not damp.
That wall is the only wall which has bubbling paint.
The shower faces another wall - if you were standing facing the showerhead, there would be a wall on your left. On the opposite of that wall is a bedroom wall. That bedroom wall is dry.

I suspect the following:
Water was leaking from the wall down through the base and onto the floorboards. After the shower base was fixed, the water could not leak onto the floorboards anymore, so it started coming out through the wall.
I will try to attach photos of the bubbling wall. I've hit the max of 3 photos for this post.

In the second photo - that's a corner of a room where there is a pipe. I think the pipe delivers toilet waste.
The second photo (no furniture) was taken about a year ago. Then, it was dirty (as you can see) but not damp.
The third photo (with furniture) was taken recently. The carpet feels damp now.
Has the carpet gone mouldy now and what is causing the problem?

Could anyone please offer any advice? What should I do?

 

[meant2be]

Look like the recent work did not stop the leak. I suspect the bubble paint is about 50-100mm from the floor. Perhaps in the right-corner of the shower (door looking in). let me know if this is the case.

The second room; cut a hole 100x100 & 50mm of the ground, close to that pipe, and have a look inside. Look for the cause of the leak and also for black mold. (Black mold release it toxic particles that can survive for seven year after the mold is gone. This toxic particle can be deadly to young baby)

1. Cut-out
a. Mark out the hole (don't have to be accurate)
b. Drill the corners
c. Cut the hole. Make sure u save the cut-out

2. Plug-in hole
a. Use any two pieces of wood and glue it to the board, from the inside
b. Glue the cut-out to the wood
c. Next day, fill the gap with filler

Treat mold = Use tea tree oil (1 Tea tree: 5/10 water). Use stronger mix to spray-&-wipe, until mold's dust is gone. Use weaker mix to spray-and-leave (until dry). Best result if you really wet the area a few times. The idea is for the oil to soak into the material been infested

 

[missgreeneyes]

Hi meant2be.
Thank you for your prompt reply!
Sorry, I'm not sure if I grasped where you think the leak is.
What do you mean by 'right corner of the shower door looking in'? I don't know where the leak is by the way....
The bubble paint is here:
If you enter the bathroom (you can see the door - it is in front of the wooden floor).
The entrance to the shower recess is immediately to your right.
Step into the shower recess
You will be facing the shower head/rose and taps.
The bubble paint is on the wall on the other side of this
Ie if you are facing the bathroom door the bubble paint will be immediately on the right.
When you say 50-100m from the floor - Ah, I'm not sure. I was too distraught at the sight of the bubbles to think about that.
Are you asking that because you think the leak is somewhere in that wall between the showerhead or taps and the base (which was repaired)?

I attached some photos - how do they look to you?

The wall doesn't feel damp though. Does that mean anything?

About the pipe. Erm, this is strata property isn't it? I'm not supposed to be cutting holes. OK, OK, please tell me how I can do this and repair the hole so no one knows?

Thank you!

 

[missgreeneyes]

1. Cut-out
a. Mark out the hole (don't have to be accurate)
b. Drill the corners
c. Cut the hole. Make sure u save the cut-out

2. Plug-in hole
a. Use any two pieces of wood and glue it to the board, from the inside
b. Glue the cut-out to the wood
c. Next day, fill the gap with filler

Oh I got it, thank you. But I'm not supposed to be doing this to strat property....let me think about that one....
I don't know where the source of the leak is. I don't think there is one actually. I think it's condensation + dirt mixed together over the years (12-14 yr old carpet).
Plus mould because of the damp.

 

[DaveM]

Does the shower head and tapware attach to the same wall as the wall in the above photo or a different one?

I have had an identical leak in the past, the paint on the wall the taps were on bubbled. Was a minor leak in shower rose and water seeped downwards due to gravity

 

[missgreeneyes]

Does the shower head and tapware attach to the same wall as the wall in the above photo or a different one?

I have had an identical leak in the past, the paint on the wall the taps were on bubbled. Was a minor leak in shower rose and water seeped downwards due to gravity

The same wall. The bubbling is appearing on the reverse side of the wall the showerhead and taps are on.

Does anyone have an opinion on my theory which I put forward in my OP:

"I suspect the following:
Water was leaking from the wall down through the base and onto the floorboards. At this stage, the wall was fine - no bubbling.
After the shower base was fixed, the water could not leak onto the floorboards anymore, so it started coming out through the wall."

What happens next?
I'm on the ground floor. Sort of. Above the LUGs. Do I wait for someone to report that the roof of their LUG is crumbling?

 

[DaveM]

How far up the shower wall was the waterproofing redone? Or just the shower base?

Looking at your photos, you have a leaking pipe inside the wall. Since it cannot drain out onto floorboards like you say, water is pooling at the base of the wall and being wicked up through the plasterboard/concrete render depending on its construction.

A plumber can pressure test the shower head to determine if there is a leak in the pipework. If there is... off comes the gyprock or out comes the kanga to drill out the brick and render, with a repair bill of $500-$1500.

 

[meant2be]

Hi missgreeneyes

As DaveMSydney said, the leak most likely be from the plumbing (inside that wall). Notice how the bubble form a line down. The water may be from a loosen soldered-joint. The damage may be from the reno work.

I uploaded a common pipe configuration inside that wall so you can imagine what's inside.

I suspect the following:
Water was leaking from the wall down through the base and onto the floorboards. At this stage, the wall was fine - no bubbling.
After the shower base was fixed, the water could not leak onto the floorboards anymore, so it started coming out through the wall

The short answer is no.

 

[missgreeneyes]

Hi missgreeneyes

As DaveMSydney said, the leak most likely be from the plumbing (inside that wall). Notice how the bubble form a line down. The water may be from a loosen soldered-joint. The damage may be from the reno work.

I uploaded a common pipe configuration inside that wall so you can imagine what's inside.



The short answer is no.

If the damage is from the 'reno' work - I put that in inverted commas as it was not reno per se, but maintenance work - how can I prove it and make the plumbers rectify it for free or reduce the bill.

Now, if I fix this wall, will the other walls start leaking? When will this end?

The building is double brick. Not sure what the wall is made of.

The shower base was repaired by having the floor layer of tiles and the first tiles around the base replaced.

 

[missgreeneyes]

Thanks for the input by the way.
Could someone please explain pressure testing to me in a simple way? I googled it but it's beyond me.

 

[missgreeneyes]

If the tenants have to go stay in a hotel for a week whilst the repairs are being done, do I have to pay and will insurance normally pay?
Also if they ask for a week or 2 off their rent in compensation for the inconvenience?
I'm with AAMI. If AAMI won't pay, and you know a company who will, please let me know.
Thanks.

 

[DaveM]

Thanks for the input by the way.
Could someone please explain pressure testing to me in a simple way? I googled it but it's beyond me.

Water is supplied at mains pressure (thats why it squirts out the tap!). When its inside a sealed pipe, it should contain water at mains pressure. If there is a leak, the pressure at the shower head will be lower than mains pressure.

A pressure test involves simply removing the shower rose and screwing on a water pressure tester with a dial which shows the water pressure. A good plumber will often carry a stethoscope and can locate where in the wall the leak is based off the hissing sound of the leak. Some plumbers will try to get leak detection/xray guy mates in to charge $300 to tell you where the leak is.

Repairing a leak like this will typically be a few hours work depending on the wall construction. If the internal is concrete, one side or the other will need to have the brickwork and render dug out with a kanga drill, the leaking pipe re-soldered or replaced, then cemented back up. A tiler or handyman can then re-tile the affected area.

A plasterboard wall will have a section of drywall cut out, pipe repaired, then you would get a plasterer or handyman to come in patch the wall.

Tenants should not be disrupted for more than a few hours of plumber work, and then a handyman/tiler (if they had to remove shower wall tiles) to tile, then after a month a handyman/painter to repaint the water damaged wall. Its important to allow the wall to dry out before repainting otherwise the new paint will bubble.

As you can tell I have had to repair similar once or twice

 

[missgreeneyes]

Thanks DaveM.
Are you a plumber?
Oh, I thought the work would take a long time because replacing the shower base took 5 days.
They did it layer by layer (as you would probably know) and I had to bathe in the bath tub for 5 days. If I hadn't had a tub I'd have been bathing out of the kitchen sink.
In regards to what Meant2Be said about the original repair work causing the pipes to leak (because of the vibrations from the drilling loosening joinery etc) - what do you think? A friend who is a DIY-er (he renovated his kitchen abd bathroom himself top to bottom, including electricals and plumbing) said that is NOT possible. He said the vibrations would not be strong enough.
What do you think this will cost? The shower base replacement cost $900-$1000. I'm in Sydney. Was that a reasonable price?

I think the internal wall is concrete. It feels solid. Not hollow like plasterboard.

Another Q:
What if there's more than 1 leak and the plumber doesn't detect it the first time? So after they do the repalr will the wall start leaking again (!!!!)
If the x-ray can eliminate this, is it worth it?

 

[DaveM]

No am not a plumber, but know a thing or two about renos and building work

Shower bases take longer as the tiles glue and grout need to cure before the shower can be reused.

Given the leak was there before the initial repairs were done (I suspect the water came from this and not from a leaking shower tray), you will just need to pay to get it fixed.

My recent repair to remove tiles, kanga out the render and brick wall, replace leaking diverter valve, re-concrete and re-tile was $600.

The plumber should redo the pressure test after to verify no more leaks.

 

[handyandy]

Generaly agree with the discussion

What the cause could be

1) Grout around tiles in shower recess cracked and worn.

Grout deteriorates over time, particularly when not applied diligently enough. What then happens is that the water will get in behind the tiles and if there is no water proofing will soak into the wall.
​

2) Waterproofing not high enough up the wall behind the tiles.

Waterproofing should be applied to the shower recess walls right up to the shower rose on all sides of the shower cubicle. With waterproofing done correctly, even if the grout fails, the water will still not enter the walls and be discharged via the drain.
​

3) Low pressure plumbing leak

If the bubbling is on a wall that is behind the shower rose plumbing then there is a high probability that the low pressure pipes leading from the taps to the shower rose is leaking. This could also be that the taps them selves are leaking into the wall ('o' rings on the tap stems) or water running down from the shower rose is finding it's way into the wall via the holes around the taps.
​

4) high pressure water leak

Again this would cause bubbling of the wall where pipe is located. This would cause the wall to be saturated and constantly wet. This is very obvious and would be leaking everywhere so unlikely to be the problem.
​

From looking at the pics it would appear that the bubbling is on a walls that has no plumbing as such I think it is a case of the waterproofing not having been done right up the wall and a deterioration of the grout in the shower recess.

A temporary fix I would try is to re-grout the shower recess and then silicone the corners and apply a water proofing compound that soaks into the grout etc.

A longer term fix will be to remove all tiles and waterproof all the walls in the recess and retile.

Cheers

 

[DaveM]

From looking at the pics it would appear that the bubbling is on a walls that has no plumbing as such I think it is a case of the waterproofing not having been done right up the wall and a deterioration of the grout in the shower recess.

The OP has stated earlier that the water damaged wall is on the reverse side of the shower recess taps/rose.

I would suggest the OP get in touch with who did the water proofing to see if they did a pressure test.

 

[handyandy]

The OP has stated earlier that the water damaged wall is on the reverse side of the shower recess taps/rose.

I would suggest the OP get in touch with who did the water proofing to see if they did a pressure test.

That's OK then see the low pressure issue in my post.

The person doing the waterproofing would not have been a plumber but either a tiler or handyman so not likely to do a pressure test.

If it is the wall behind the shower rose then as you have mentioned look at the shower rose fitting and and check the taps and the holes the taps come out of. Address these first to see whether the problem is fixed rather than going the whole plumber route with lots of expense. It is unlikely to be a strata issue unless high pressure pipes.

Cheers

 

[missgreeneyes]

Thanks HandyAndy and DaveMSydney.

HandyAndy - what's the difference between low and high pressure?
Can I ask what makes you deduce the leak came from the wall and not the shower base in the first place?

Did either of you take a good look at the water stains on the floorboards - do you think these stains are clearly from a leak and not (as many qualified builders told me) water spillage from the shower? You know, like when the water spills out of the bathroom when you take a shower and don't close the shower door properly.
I had not known all this before I bought, so I couldn't tell at the time that the stains were from leakage and not spillage.
Frankly, I would not have bought this property if I'd known all I know now (learning the hard way). Leaks and structural damage are things I don't like to touch.

This is causing me alot of stress.

By the way, a work order has come down from strata to have a look at the leak. I hope they will pay for it. If they don't, I will just have to I guess isn't it! Can't leave it leaking like that!
About re-grouting the shower recess - the shower base and 1st layer of tiles (going vertically up the wall, like a 'cup' or 'bowl' around the base of the shower) is now brand new. In a different colour to the rest of the shower. It's not as bad as I would've thought it would look. I'll take photos when I enter the property (I will be going in with the plumber).
I don't know if a plumber ever touched the new shower base. I think one did along the line. The shower base was repaired by a big plumbing company. The kinds who outsource and co-ordinate the job. About 5 different men came and did each section seperately (hacking, water proofing, tiling, putting the taps back... etc). I don't know what sort of tradies they were but probably at least one would've been a plumber I suppose.

What should I get the plumbing company to do?
1. Find leak. Drill into wall. Solder and Repair. Patch up and paint wall
2. Check taps, shower head and o-rings
3. Re-waterproof and re-tile the entire wall.
Anything else?
Do I need to do all 3?
How much will all this cost?
Reckon strata will pay?

I haven't been able to book a time yet as my dear tenants are slow in getting back to me. I asked them a couple of days ago to give me a selection of times when they would like me to book the plumber in. If they don't get back to me by COB tomorrow, I will get my PM to just send them a letter giving them notice the plumber and I are coming on XXX date and time.

 

[missgreeneyes]

my tenant is quite tall. my shower is not fully tiled all the way to the ceiling. just until above the shower rose. is it possible water is leaking in via the painted wall above the rose or is that too far fetched?

 

[handyandy]

my tenant is quite tall. my shower is not fully tiled all the way to the ceiling. just until above the shower rose. is it possible water is leaking in via the painted wall above the rose or is that too far fetched?

As per Dave's previous description high pressure is where the pipe is restricted in it's opening taps etc and holds water at the mains pressure. The low pressure pipe is where you open a tap and the water can escape. This would normally be the tap opening. In the shower you have a set of pipes between the tap and the opening (shower rose) and these pipes are then carrying low pressure water. See pic in a previous post.

If you look at the damage it is high up on the wall which means that the source of the water is high up the wall. If the source was down low and the damage that high up then the damage down low would be very severe.

Really the damage that I am seeing is hardly anything compared to some that we have fixed in the past.

Re water source above the line of tiles. Yes, it could be possible.

We have had shower roses attached to the wall above the line of tiles and this has certainly caused problems.

What can also be a problem in this sort of situation is little side spurts from the shower head. If one was aimed at the wall and constantly wetting the paint then the water will get through. In this case you would see damage on the paint above the tiles.

My thoughts on the water stain on the wood was more likely to by water spilling than a leak because if it was a leak then the water would also be very evident along the bottom of the wall and more bubbling at the bottom of the wall.

In the end it is so hard to determine the source of the leak that I suspect the strata just reacted to the situation - namely complaint, ah shower tray, send someone, they start hacking, whether it was the problem or not.

Cheers