Bali Nine

Discussion in 'Coffee Lounge' started by Scott No Mates, 23rd Jan, 2015.

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Should the Bali nine be granted clemency

Poll closed 28th Jan, 2015.
  1. Yes

    24 vote(s)
    34.3%
  2. No

    34 vote(s)
    48.6%
  3. Yes due to the AFP's involvement

    5 vote(s)
    7.1%
  4. No, they were going to do it anyway

    7 vote(s)
    10.0%
  1. Scott No Mates

    Scott No Mates ...and people wonder why?

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    How do you see this playing out with the announcement of the execution dates for two of the seven being iminent?

    Execution-date-for-bali-nine-pair-yet-to-be-set

    Should they get the bullet for what they had done or be granted clemency as the AFP were complicit in advising the Indonesians of the activities of this pair?

    Would they have been caught without the tip-off from the AFP? Who would that have affected?
     
  2. Simon

    Simon Living the Dream

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    If a foreign police organisation tipped us off about drug smugglers does that somehow give them a get out of gaol free card?

    Or are you saying we should administer their sentencing under our laws because we discovered them, although didn't arrest them.

    I am anti death penalty. But I don't believe being Australian should get them a different sentence than other drug smugglers convicted under Indonesian law. As a nation we should be lobbying for our neighbours not to execute anyone if we find it so abhorrent.
     
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  3. Rixter

    Rixter $uper Investor (Retired)

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    How many deaths have they caused.

    You do the crime you pay the time..

    No-one was holding a gun to their heads to peddle their wares into Indonesia - that only happens after they're caught.
     
  4. willair

    willair xx

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    Once you step on the plane to go outside Australia ,as Barlow and Chambers found out in 1986,for trafficking 141.9g of herion and were executed in Malaysia under their drug trafficking Laws,The same for these 2 Men in Bali,they knew what was happening from the time they flew in
    so there is very little anyone can do now..
     
  5. D.T.

    D.T. Property Lookerafterer

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    Each country has its own laws and they should be respected.

    I don't think its fair for us to pass judgement as we dont have all the evidence, only what the media has provided us which is no doubt selective.

    If they are guilty then they have to submit to that country's punishment, whatever that may be. I had the same response on the Corby case.
     
  6. boeman

    boeman Member

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    Drugs account for a lot of what is wrong with this world, and they personally can be held accountable for destroying a lot of other lives.

    Make an example of them.
     
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  7. marg4000

    marg4000 Member

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    This crime was committed in Indonesia and penalties are subject to their laws. Their guilt seems beyond doubt.

    Australia will have no say in what happens.

    Any sympathy I may
    have is for their families who will live with their grief for the rest if their lives.
    Marg
     
  8. Xenia IM

    Xenia IM Property Manager

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    How many deaths are caused by sugar addictions, food addictions, alcohol, smoking, pharmaceutical drugs - all the LEGAL stuff.

    It's not legal because it is safe, it's legal because it can be taxed.

    People will created a product where there is a market for it - it's 2 sided and people make choices to ruin their own lives.

    If you are prepared to stuff up your life, you will find people that are prepared to stuff up your life.

    If people were happy and fulfilled in their own lives there would be no food, alcohol, smoking, sex, addictions, no drugs and no drug dealers and no other industries servicing those addictions.

    I do not believe in individual blame when it's so much more complex than that. There is an entire support network for all negative actions - even hitler was supported by millions. He would not have been able to do what he did otherwise. Finger pointing takes away the responsibility of the underlying support that enables that crime to happen.

    Our own governments are out killing people because we have an underlying NEED to be protected. If the fear of terrorism wasn't there they would not need to start wars to protect us from it - we are allowing it, they alone cannot be blamed. It's a society thing.

    However there are laws and there are also consequences for breaking those laws and the bali nine have made their own decisions to break those laws. The consequences they face are their own individual journey.

    I personally don't believe in killing fellow human beings and people change so much in 10 years - the people that have been given the death sentence are different from the people that committed the crimes 10 years ago.
     
  9. Of The Vultures

    Of The Vultures Member

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    I used to work with Andrew Chan at the football stadium in Sydney. He used to tell me about his overseas trips to Austria etc and I used to wonder how he could afford them on our meagre wages - I soon found out! It wasn't long after that when he was arrested in Bali.

    I don't think they should be granted clemency, they were well aware of the penalty if caught, and yet risked it anyway. They got away with it a few times and eventually it caught up with them. Does it matter if the AFP was involved? Not in the least.
     
  10. jim1964

    jim1964 Part Time Sheep Farmer

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    The names Nugyen Tuong Van and Barlow and Chambers should be a Warning to everyone contemplating doing this.The above list will increase shortly.........i have no sympathy
     
  11. Rixter

    Rixter $uper Investor (Retired)

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    Why are they different now?

    Couldnt that just be your perception?

    What if that person/persons sentenced committed their crime that resulted in the deaths of members within your immediate family?
     
  12. BayView

    BayView Member

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    It's a shame the drug suppliers to these mules also don't get theirs.

    I'm surprised the Indonesian Gubb don't have that sort of deal to offer - life imprisonment instead of execution; for handing over the names and locations of the higher-ups in the organisation.

    I also believe that all illegal drugs in Aus should be made free to all drug addicts, and taken over by the Gubb and managed via properly set up clinics/usage centres, with relevant medical and counseling staff to help these people get off their habit.

    With no profits to be made through drug sales, I think you will find the trafficking industry will fold up very quickly.

    Does it mean I support drug use? Absolutely not.

    But lets get real about this problem - people will take drugs whether they are illegal or legal.

    So, lets look at alternative ways to manage it and keep the entire Country safe from traffickers, drug related crimes, etc and focus more on education of our younger folks as well.
     
  13. Rixter

    Rixter $uper Investor (Retired)

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    There is a code within the underworld that states, thall shall not dob in. To dob in brands you the term dog. Dogs become dead men walking...and there is no where to for them hide when they're all locked in the big kennel together.

    It's already being done in various forms, main one being the Methadone program.
     
  14. property_girl

    property_girl Banned

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    I don't believe in the death penalty as retribution. Those boys are guilty of being greedy and stupid. I don't believe they cannot be rehabilitated. However, imho, I do believe in the death penalty for paedophiles and serial killers, more to put them out of their misery and because paedos can't be rehabilitated.
     
  15. Rixter

    Rixter $uper Investor (Retired)

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    No, you're blurring the line - they have been found Guilty of Drug Trafficking.
     
  16. Xenia IM

    Xenia IM Property Manager

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    People can change in ten years and My perception is all I can offer Rixter - there is nothing else.

    If it was members of my immediate family the associate pain may have resulted in a reactive response wanting punishment. However that is not a state I personally like to be at.

    You cannot do life in a punishing state and expect to be healthy and grow as a being. - just my perception again - take it or leave it.
     
  17. Peter_Tersteeg

    Peter_Tersteeg Finance broker/strategist

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    Ballarat had a significant Methadone program when I was in high school. It turned into a serious Methadone addiction problem. I'm told today that ICE is a big problem there, there may or may not be a connection. I think it can be a two edged sword.

    Legalising many drugs would certainly take a lot of profit out of trafficking. The question is what would be the cost to addicts and their families? You could make ICE free and there'd still be serious social consequences. By making it more accessible addiction rates would increase as well.

    Alcohol is a mild drug (vs ICE) but it still causes massive harm to innocent parties, especially when abused at addiction levels. Drunk driving, alcohol related violence, inability to hold a job, etc. Legal manufacturers still make a lot of money from it as well.

    There's certainly no easy answers for substance abuse. Legalisation isn't the answer, but outright prohibition doesn't work either.


    As for the Bali 9, I'm not an advocate of capital punishment and I do believe in rehabilitation. However they broke the law, were caught and found guilty in a country that has penalties which they don't appear to be willing to face. Too bad.
     
  18. lizzie

    lizzie when i grow up ...

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    I personally don't agree with the death penalty - although do agree with castrating paedophiles - but these people made their choices knowing all the risks.

    They freely chose the attempt to smuggle drugs in a country that is known to have the death penalty for drug smuggling ... and it wasn't just a pill or two ... it was a quantity that would make them very rich, and potentially destroy a lot of lives ... and it obviously wasn't their first time either.

    If they had succeed then I am sure there would be no remorse - they are "reformed and remorseful" only because they were caught.

    I don't agree - but I don't feel any sympathy for them either.

    I do agree that we need to respect the laws of other countries, even if they differ from our own. We have no right to dictate to Indonesia how they set their laws - any more than Indonesia has any right to interfer in Australian law.
     
  19. No Probs

    No Probs Member

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    Do the crime, do the time - they knew what they were risking. Don't get involved in drugs, simple. I've got no sympathy.
     
  20. WattleIdo

    WattleIdo Member

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    Yes.
    Three reasons.
    1/ no killing - 2 wrongs don't make a right
    2/ a reformed and reflective character has a lot more influence on those struggling to escape their addictions than self-righteous types
    and
    3/ our continued appeals to Indonesia are how we show that the death penalty isn't acceptable to us and Indonesia might come to share a more wholistic approach to crime and punishment. We can't change them but we can demonstrate our own values.

    Having said that, I don't think there's much anyone can do now. Unless there is some amazing last minute change of heart. But I don't think it'll happen: too much face involved.
     
    Last edited: 24th Jan, 2015