BCC just bent us over. Need a solicitor.

[Tim86]

Purchased a property in Salisbury 4107 (23 Toorak Rd) with my parents with the intent to subdivide into 2 blocks.

Original block 1012m2 corner block.

It's close to a waterway but hasn't flooded in many years, not even in the 1974 Brisbane flood.

Anyway because it was close to the waterway we were careful to make sure we contacted the council before purchasing the property to find out if they would have any objections to a subdivision there due to the waterway. They said that they wouldn't have a problem with it. We made sure we really really pushed them on this and they again reassured us.

The block was an odd shape, with the footpath cutting into the block like a triangle. So we had the idea of buying that bit of footpath that no one was using, so that we would then have a 1250m2 block which could be subdivided into 3 blocks.

State government approved the sale, we submitted to council and paid them about $1500 for them to assess the sale, we clearly outlined that we were purchasing the land in order to subdivide the block. Council saw this and said they had no objections. We paid the $15 000 deposit for the $60 000 piece of land.

Along the way we spoke to about 3 town planners who said a subdivision would be fine. Mohammed was the most recent and he reassured us many times that it would get approved.

We were then told by council that we needed a hydrologist report for the subdivision application. We spoke to Paul, the chief council engineer to ask if we spent $3000 on a hydrologist we wouldn't just get knocked back for the subdivision and have that money wasted. He said that it would be fine and it would be approved.

So we spent the $3000.

The hydrologist report pretty much stated everything would be fine, you'd just need a relaxation due to having to build the blocks up 500mm to be completely out of the flood height in order to subdivide them. This relaxation was due to something like having the land built up about 200mm more than the road height at the front compared to what council generally allows.

Of course you know what this is all building to. Got a call today from the assessor saying that the subdivision is not going to be approved.

We are out of pocket a substantial amount of money now as we were following the councils advice along the way, only to have them completely back track right at the end. We wouldn't have even bought the block in the first place if we weren't told a subdivision would be approved.

It looks like we will need to take them to court.

Does anyone have any advice. And are there any solicitors that would be willing to take on a case like this?

Thanks

Tim

 

[sanj]

Speak to Darryl/rpi on this forum. I haven't dealt with him personally but he's both a planner and a solicitor from memory and based in Brisbane.

The lesson for next time herr is that you need to do your own due diligence and not rely solely on council to tell you. Good luck, hope it works out.

What is the reason they've given? Also I assume the extra 250sqm was bought from them, in future make it subject to approval for subdivision being granted etc because ultimately you weren't bidding against anyone else for that bit of land

 

[Tim86]

They've still got to send through the official rejection with all the details on it.

I don't know all the details as it was my dad who was doing all the subdivision process. As he has subdivided about 5 properties I was happy to leave it in his hands.

Have tried to get a hold of RPI in the past but with no luck. Probably already busy enough with all the other council headaches he has to help people with.

 

[Beanie Girl]

Does your dad have any of the reassurances in writing (formal letter) or email from

1. Council on sub-division on the original block
2. Assessment and approval of purchase of footpath in line with your the intent of subdivision
2. Council has no objection to you buying the footpath for subdivision purposes or just that they had no objection to you buying the bit of footpath...period
3. from the Chief hydrologist that if you spend the $3000 for a hydrologist report, that you wouldn't get knocked back for the sub-division, that the sub-division would be fine

Before you get an official rejection letter from Council in writing, I would gather all the evidence above in writing and present your case to Council in writing/email why they should not be issuing an official rejection letter

So far, you've only got a verbal call from the assessor saying that the sub-division won't be approved.

Gather your evidence in writing (if any),

tell Council in a formal letter that you have evidence in writing from Council they have reassured you about
sub-division - you've spent X amount on block of land with house - 400K+
assessment and approval of sale of footpath - $1500
footpath - you've spent X amount on bit of footpath - 60K

Submit expert reports -
hydrologist report is favourable (independent expert - $3000 dollars)
townplanners' reports are favourable etc (independent experts - $X dollars)

basically anything that would support your case, big $$$ spent on their say-so
BEFORE they issue an official rejection letter against subdivision (on record)
I suggest you do this quickly. Time is of essence. Nothing about rejection of subdivision is in writing ...yet

- i.e. you have to fight your own battles with Council in a timely fashion instead of waiting for law, courts and justice

In a battle, you have to fire the first salvo

 

[Perp]

It's possibly also relevant what the timeframe for all this is.

The new City Plan came into effect 1 Jul 2014 that is a lot stricter regarding flooding potential. Were your reassurances that subdivision would be approved after that date?

If your assurances were from before that date, I suspect they'll say: "well, we were giving you advice under the present planning scheme; we didn't guarantee it would never change".

 

[Tim86]

All of that was put in a letter with the original submission. They've still rejected it.

I thought it would be a good idea to contact the people that told us we would get approved directly (like the council chief engineer) so that they could talk to the assessor.

But my dad said no, and to just wait for the rejection letter and then go from there...

 

[Tim86]

It's possibly also relevant what the timeframe for all this is.

The new City Plan came into effect 1 Jul 2014 that is a lot stricter regarding flooding potential. Were your reassurances that subdivision would be approved after that date?

If your assurances were from before that date, I suspect they'll say: "well, we were giving you advice under the present planning scheme; we didn't guarantee it would never change".

Application started before Jul 2014, pretty sure it's getting assessed according to the previous plan anyway. But I could be wrong, would have to check.

 

[willair]

I thought it would be a good idea to contact the people that told us we would get approved directly (like the council chief engineer) so that they could talk to the assessor..

Maybe just take it too the next level and work up from there,from what I read you have :RPI: that gives free data all the time in this site and is Brisbane based ,just make a appointment something like this under the new laws in place can be sorted out,,imho,..

 

[Beanie Girl]

Tim, if your planning application started before July 2014,

don't do anything that would change the date of your original planning application before July 2014
i.e. before the stricter planning scheme came into place,

e.g. signing an amendment to the planning application
agreeing to an amendment to the planning application

You have to protect the date of the original planning application no matter what Council promises you in regards to approval of sub-division
to entice you (verbally/email/in writing whatever)

They can say, 'if you want it to be approved, pls sign an amendment to the planning application'
which may change the date of the original application to the date you sign it.
(this is the case in Victoria, this may be the case in Qld as well, I'm just making an educated guess)

Just whatever you do, protect the date of the original planning application
if it is before 1 July 2014

 

[Vixs]

They've still got to send through the official rejection with all the details on it.

I don't know all the details as it was my dad who was doing all the subdivision process. As he has subdivided about 5 properties I was happy to leave it in his hands.

Have tried to get a hold of RPI in the past but with no luck. Probably already busy enough with all the other council headaches he has to help people with.

I managed to get through to Darryl straight away on Monday however that was at the legal offices. Don't know how he divides his time with the two different businesses or if he is contactable on either number during the day..

 

[Tim86]

Thanks for the msgs so far. Sounds like we need to be careful with the next step we take. Will pass on rpi's details to my dad to see if we have any luck.

 

[Vixs]

I'm just amazed you're even looking for another project with your home finally coming together haha! So much work in that, you're eager!

 

[cu@thetop]

Write down details in chronological order of all dealings you had with BCC including filenotes of all telephone calls etc and copies of emails/letters etc. This is what you need to properly instruct your legal advisor.

This is more RPI's cup of tea than it is mine but there may be an estoppel issue happening here that may have legs.

 

[Tim86]

I'm just amazed you're even looking for another project with your home finally coming together haha! So much work in that, you're eager!

Lol "eager" such a nice way to put it

Currently have a few projects on the go. Buying out my sisters share of a property then going to raise that and build a granny flat underneath. That will be a 6 month diy build.

Then have this potential subdivision with my dad. If it goes through I will be looking at another diy build, probably a 8 month project.

Then I have to fit in building stage 2 of my ppor which will be a 250m2 extension which will take about 8-12 months diy.

And I'm thinking of opening up a counselling business on the side.

I probably should slow down but surprisingly I'm not exhausting myself yet. At least the good thing about having so many projects is that I'm not putting all my eggs in one basket so I'm not too stressed about these subdivision issues. Some investments work, some don't. I'll still make money either way. But we are talking the difference between maybe $20 000 and $200 000 so obviously I have a preference here

 

[Tim86]

Write down details in chronological order of all dealings you had with BCC including filenotes of all telephone calls etc and copies of emails/letters etc. This is what you need to properly instruct your legal advisor.

This is more RPI's cup of tea than it is mine but there may be an estoppel issue happening here that may have legs.

Thanks, I hope our argument stands up.

 

[RPI]

Apologies for not getting through to me, not sure why as I have staff at both businesses to answer the phone, although I don't work in the planning practice day to day. Phone call to the law firm will be get me or at least get a call back within 24 hours if I am tied up.

DA may be able to be saved if you haven't got a formal rejection. pm me with the address and I will have a look.

 

[Tim86]

I think previously I sent an email. So hadn't tried calling. But I sent the email from a Hotmail address so maybe it went straight into the junk folder

I'll shoot you a pm now. Thanks heaps rpi.

 

[TMNT]

this is why i hate dealing with any government bureacracy

cant get a stragiht answer from anybody,
and even if you do, its either vague, wrong or doesnt address teh question

and yet tim has done everything above then reasoanble and gets screwed over

what a joke!

 

[RPI]

Have spoken to various parties. No way to save now. Engineering advice from the report provided highlighted adverse impacts without offering a solution to fix. Too late to resolve now.

Overall a very frustrating, annoying and expensive process.

Commercially in a situation like this it is often cheaper to get a new engineering report and submit a whole new application and get it through that way. Sounds like a complete waste of money but this is cheaper than appealing the decision (would need to spend at least $50k on legals, expert witnesses etc), or taking an action against council for loss caused by poor advice is potentially longer and more expensive.

In a win you normally only get 50-60% of your legals back max so you can have a win and still be worse off.

 

[nomadic]

It sounds like you're out of pocket $4,500? Sure you've also spent some time but I'm sure it was a good learning experience. Check with your accountant but maybe you can claim the 4.5k on your tax return?