Brace yourself for the next stage of the property boom

But yes that is a major connundrum - that we are all relying on china yet china relies heavily on the usa to consume their goods!. On the ground in China they are dead scared about the weakness of the US economy.

i love this argument - it all rolls back to the US somehow...gotta love brain dead economists who can't do currency conversions.

i'm going to set the record straight right here.

the US buy Chinese goods.
Japan buy Chinese goods.
Taiwan IS Chinese goods.
New Zealand buy Chinese goods.
Australia buy Chinese goods.
China buy Chinese goods.

should i continue? yeah why not, let's ram this home for the thicksticks out there....

Russia buy Chinese goods.
France buy Chinese goods.
Italy buy Chinese goods.
Spain buy Chinese goods.
UK buy Chinese goods.
Ireland buy Chinese goods.
Saudi Arabia buy Chinese goods.
Turkey buy Chinese goods.
Israel buy Chinese goods.
South Africa buy Chinese goods.
Canada buy Chinese goods.
Mexico buy Chinese goods.
Brazil buy Chinese goods.

so the next time i hear that the Chinese economy is dependant on the US for an export market - well, i'll just bring this up again and slap someone else with it.

the Chinese have HOARDED USD. it's a well known fact. they've also HOARDED gold, platinum, silver etc. call it a "hedge" yes? one fails in value, the other accumulates in value.

the Chinese have over 5000 years of financial history. you think they'd tie themselves to one 250 year old economy so strongly?

not rocket science, really. you just have to think about it a little before regurgitating something you saw in the news-feed reel on CNN.
 
Depends on our definition of rooted? If growth is flat, or slightly negative, then the US will still be consuming say a third of the worlds resources and economic output. That'll do me just fine. I think this is the scenario.

If the US is rooted in a more serious way, we are in trouble, because China and India and the rest can't fill the spot. Not yet anyway.


See ya's.

i reckon they're about 50/50 at present.

the US will spend money they don't have and play with one and zeros on their system to prop it all up. lets not forget private individuals are still illegally taxed over there as wll, so there's a huge income source.
 
Good arguements topcropper, but i reckon the gfc also just happen to coincide with the olympic games, beijing closing industrial shop, creating shipping chaos, etc etc..

Its one big juggling act out there these days, everything and everyone is intertwined like never before. And with derivatives, hedge funds etc we cant even effectively see past the bow!

IS there anyone in charge of this boat!!!!!!!!!!!

should we be equally concerned about the world expo?
 
I agree 100% with this post. But how do we profit from it.
To profit we need to buy US non-consumption based companies in US$. But we have to be careful because of our exchange rate. There is no point getting a 20% profit in US$ terms if our currency appreciates 20%.

I really wanted to go hard early this year in buying US companies. It was the buy of the century, unfortunately our dollar was low back then.

I made my first investment at AU/US$0.75, i made another investment at AU/US$0.8, my next step will be at AU/US$0.85-0.9.
Softly softly is my approach to this investment theme.

You borrow USD to buy US shares and keep your money in AUD, I don't have the borrowing rates but should be a positive carry trade, when you close your US share positions the profit/loss in USD can be converted back to AUD.
A US Broker such as Interactive brokers makes this a breeze.
 
Blue card

Your strenght of rhetoric says more about you than what you actually say.

I have spent lots of time doing business in China - have you?

You make 5000 years Chinese financial history sound like a success! I dont see too many avearage chinese workers driving subarus and living in condos!

We have seen thousands and seen millions of chinese lose their jobs over the last 12 months ans many parts china got very very close to a huge civil uprising. Thats how tenouos the economic situation is over there.

You are the one taking propaganda to heart (hoarding this mineral and that). The Chinese authorities love that IDEA to be out there but the truth is less romantic.
 
i love this argument - it all rolls back to the US somehow...gotta love brain dead economists who can't do currency conversions.

i'm going to set the record straight right here
I really hate this way of thinking about setting record straight with not 1 single number in it....
here is some number from bloomberg::
...
This may lead to a 30 percent rise in China’s imports to $313 billion in the fourth quarter from a year earlier, the fastest pace since the onset of the global recession, according to Zurich-based Credit Suisse AG, Switzerland’s second-largest bank
...
Soaring Imports

Imports from South Korea jumped 26.6 percent to $24.5 billion in the second quarter from the previous three months, according to China’s Customs General Administration. Shipments from Taiwan soared nearly 41 percent to $20.3 billion.

Among China’s other major trading partners, imports leapt by 30.2 percent from Japan to $31.5 billion, by 23.5 percent from the European Union to $31.3 billion and by 11.5 percent from the U.S. to $18.5 billion.

Stronger Chinese demand may reduce the global economy’s dependence on consumers in the U.S. and Europe and rein in China’s trade surplus, curbing global imbalances in spending and saving that may have contributed to the financial crisis. The surplus fell $16.6 billion in the first seven months to $108 billion, on track for the first annual decline since 2003.

“We’re clearly seeing a surge in imports driven by domestic demand that is consistent with a new direction for China’s economy,” said Louis Kuijs, a senior China economist with the Washington-based World Bank in Beijing.
...
Spurring domestic consumption gained added urgency with the collapse in exports to $627 billion in the first seven months of 2009 from $803 billion a year earlier. In July, overseas shipments fell for a ninth consecutive month, dropping 23 percent to $105.42 billion. The decline “may continue for a longer time,” Premier Wen Jiabao was quoted as saying on the government’s official Web site Aug. 24.

Foreign Trade

Exports have driven a 15-fold increase in China’s economy to $3.86 trillion since the nation opened its doors to foreign trade and investment in 1978. China is the world’s second- largest exporter behind Germany and the third-biggest importer after the U.S. and Germany.
...
no comment!
 
Ausprop - clever but no cigar!

You have forgotten that for along time leading up to the olympics everyone pointed to that single event as being a major reason for Chinese economic turnaround.

Leading up to the olympics this - leading up to the olympics invesment levels will be that.......It was everywhere. Infact governements use the bidding process to push their economic positions....after the horse bolted you cant then deny its effects

Its the truth.....much to do about invesment as it has to do with sentiment.

And beleive me - the shipping markets crashed big time during and after the olympics....
 
You have forgotten that for along time leading up to the olympics everyone pointed to that single event as being a major reason for Chinese economic turnaround.

everyone was sayig it would be a catalyst for a crash, but I think you are saying everyone was saying the opposite?
 
possibilities

How likely do the experts here see these potentials:

USA works, saves, wars itself back to biggest player status, perhaps after devaluing their dollar officially by 20 or 30 percent (not just by easing and inflation). All governments have emergency powers don't they?

China's self declared economic figures being real.

The Aust Dollar plunging back to 60c or below (so the traders can profit take and grab the next run at it - or the big players can get cheaper commodities, or both.)

Aust government allowing superannuation fund access for potential retirees - and lots choosing property investment for their nest egg incomes - or government grabbing the lot to supplement a means tested old age pension.

2012 arriving and the end of the world as we know it causing a flood of baby boomer investment properties on the market so the retirees can fund groceries etc.

Also, is it likely that property will boom and fail at the same time, depending on location, ownership, type of stock etc? - as per the luxury end crashing. Why not this applied to some suburbs generally rather than price ranges.

Great discussion by the way. I remain cynical tho that the powers that be are driving, and not just hanging on.
 
TC are there any substitute products for Deer &Co.
Based firstly on:
1) are there any substitute products full stop; and
2) are Deer products so good that farmers are happy to pay a premium in price against substitute products.

.


1. Plenty. Case IH. New Holland. CAT. Agco. etc.

2. Not really. Any quality american or european farm gear is fine.


Deere and Co is probably the largest farm machinery manufacturer. Case IH is merged now with New Holland, and majority owned by the Italian company FIAT. CAT is sort of tied up with agco, which is gleaner/Allice Chalmers, also american.


See ya's.
 
see blue bold

Blue card

Your strenght of rhetoric says more about you than what you actually say.

absolutley.

I have spent lots of time doing business in China - have you?

no.

You make 5000 years Chinese financial history sound like a success! I dont see too many avearage chinese workers driving subarus and living in condos!

5000 years doesn't equal success - it equals knowledge and experience - that's my point.

We have seen thousands and seen millions of chinese lose their jobs over the last 12 months ans many parts china got very very close to a huge civil uprising. Thats how tenouos the economic situation is over there.

i'm sure the numbers they released are skewed - but there's a rising middle class happening and while i'm not "on the ground" i do read a lot of independent blogs.

You are the one taking propaganda to heart (hoarding this mineral and that). The Chinese authorities love that IDEA to be out there but the truth is less romantic.

what is the truth? i'm not taking propaganda to heart. i'm CERTAIN there are serious issues with the chinese system of "cover it up and deny everything - it's all rosy" style of politics and media releases, which really can and do hide underlying problems - but i an also CERTAIN that the Chinese market has seriously good demand fundamentals, which is good for Australia. whether it be now or 6 months or 10 years - the demand will come.

I really hate this way of thinking about setting record straight with not 1 single number in it....

This may lead to a 30 percent rise in China’s imports to $313 billion in the fourth quarter from a year earlier, the fastest pace since the onset of the global recession, according to Zurich-based Credit Suisse AG, Switzerland’s second-largest bank.

Soaring Imports

Imports from South Korea jumped 26.6 percent to $24.5 billion in the second quarter from the previous three months, according to China’s Customs General Administration. Shipments from Taiwan soared nearly 41 percent to $20.3 billion.

fundamentals don't always need numbers - sometimes just good logic is all that's needed to see the blaringly bluddy obvious.

you seem to have missed to LOGIC in the first paragraph you quoted. China's imports have jumped - MAY be to 30% - which means DOMESTIC MANUFACTURING has slowed but DEMAND is still there....!!!!

Credit Suisse are extremely risk adverse and as such have incredibly minimal holdings in China - not exactly someone you can rely on for unbiased stats.

Exports from Taiwan (cough....CHINA....cough) are UP fourty one percent - that's EXPORTING FROM CHINA.

next time pick a better source for your info, or at least read it before you quote it.
 
next time pick a better source for your info, or at least read it before you quote it.

I am not necessary against you and needing to argue about, I just don't like to read about something tangible without the numbers.
My opinion is that china is not the key, if things get bad (or good) is because of faulty (or good) western policies
 
I am not necessary against you and needing to argue about, I just don't like to read about something tangible without the numbers.
My opinion is that china is not the key, if things get bad (or good) is because of faulty (or good) western policies

then why post up doublespeak babble bullsh*t that contradicts both itself and your point?

you say you can't handle tangible argument without numbers - the numbers you posted were all pointing 6 ways from Sunday - so, what....? ANY numbers will do? it just needs numbers to be a constructive proposal....?

like i said, there's more to fundamentals than just numbers.

your opinion is valid - just like those that have the opinion otherwise. faulty western policies with no real rules make for easy returns from the abyss. that's MY opinion and certainly what SEEMS to be unfolding.
 
I would give a damn of what you think, but you are seriously deluded. Your thinking is in fact not your thinking but News Limited.
I write here not to engage in futile discussion with economically illiterate individuals, but to warn those who is willing to listen.
Back in 2008 you were so convinced that there will be no property boom - so who turned to be correct?
Cherish the hopes of the property crash - and you will learn your lesson the hard way.

Sorry To Do but I have to pull you up on your unwarranted criticism here, for a start it is you who cited news.com in your above quote (not me).

Second you are in no position to state that I am seriously deluded as you are not aware yourself of my position on economics, besides that its a crass statement to make about another person, unless you are crass yourself - but I don't appreciate your tone.

Also I don't think there has been a property boom since 2008? Surely prices are just adjusting to the amount they had fallen back in 2008.

Also if you know your history then the sharemarket is likely to make much stronger gains from a percentage perspective now than property.

Thanks anyway

Tim
 
then why post up doublespeak babble bullsh*t that contradicts both itself and your point?
don't understand why the data contraddict my point, to me seems China is changing in the way to get much more likely like other major country with a much more balanced import/export relationship, so I think the 30% surge in import and 30% drop of export is far more important then your pointless list of country which you even miss a major player like Korea (4th china trading partner and 3 times bigger then Australia)

you say you can't handle tangible argument without numbers - the numbers you posted were all pointing 6 ways from Sunday - so, what....? ANY numbers will do? it just needs numbers to be a constructive proposal....?
Well numbers tell you also china trade would be in the order of 1 tril$ import and around 1.2 tril$ export (for a gdp of little over 4 tril$, world gdp is over 60 tril$),
I don't think you can talk about china without knowing what thay represent and what they are in relation to others, but I guess your post with your list of country is much more interesting :rolleyes:
.
 
China's imports have jumped - MAY be to 30% - which means DOMESTIC MANUFACTURING has slowed but DEMAND is still there....!!!!

you may have missed this.

i was halfway thru a conversation about China's products NOT RELYING on the US solely, and how it's a joke that people assume because the US may falter that China will because demand for their exports will drop.

well, you just proved my point further by adding Korea to my "interesting list" of countries that are China's export markets above and beyond the US.

so here's some f-ing figures for you.

Top Countries China Exports To ($bil)

* United States = $162.9 (+30%)
* Hong Kong = $124.5 (+23%)
* Japan = $84 (+14%)
* South Korea = $35.1 (+26%)
* Germany = $32.5 (+37%)
* Netherlands = $25.9 (+40%)
* United Kingdom = $19 (+27%)
* Singapore = $16.6 (+31%)
* Taiwan = $16.6 (+22%)
* Russia = $13.2 (+45%)

so the US can fail all it will - China still has the REST OF THE WORLD to trade with - that is, unless you count the definition of "world" like the US treat the definition of the word in terms like "world series football".... like most economists do out there. yet - considering ALL those countries show HEFTY increases year on year - i would seriously doubt any claim to their export market "failing" - like i am arguing with aussierogue about - regardless of civil unrest or apparent smokescreen data.

Japan exports nearly 6 (that's six) times more value to China that Australia does (100bil vs 16bil).

the US makes up 30% of the TOP TEN exporting countries. what about China's domestic consumption? like i said IMPORTS are up because local manufacturing is DOWN but demand is STEADY or UP - which would co-incide with what aussierogue said about unemployment. what about all the other countries i mentioned and all the countries i didn't? where's their stats? does it matter anymore? have you seen the light yet?

trying to make a point with you is like trying to make a point to my mother in law - it doesn't mater what you say, you're wrong.

in short, you need to stop moving the goalposts in an argument - you keep getting caught out doing it.
 
this is getting a bit too arty farty for me (if its too hard to analyse just chuck it into the too hard basket and look for an easier way to create a calculated positive risk angle).

However two points i agree with Blue Card, the Chinese mercantile system has been around much longer than our own. This leads to a systematic way of thinking that may be different to our own (and not just focussed on immediate short term gains based on their day in the sun). Which one is right? on this i will take the chinese thinking.

The other point is the untested durability of the current regime. We will just have to wait and see over time, but i think this socialist (in name if not in deed) model cannot work into the future.

I personally am not ready to write off the USA. There is something about that country that allows itself to be re-invented. To take a more cynical view, actually everything has been going pretty well for the USA. Think about it, other schmucks lend US consumers money they couldnt afford at very decent interest rates (who is the schmuck here???).
This game is now over, but the US consumer has had a pretty good run for the last decade on this run.

Over to part II:
Once bitten twice shy: so overseas lenders start diversifying away from lending to US consumers. This gets bad, so ok, lets just devalue the currency, what is an overseas country going to do about it??? The debt is in US dollars (at least they werent stupid about this).
This may make it hard on the US consumer, but if there are no more 'fixes', one thing the US consumer has learnt over time in the US is adapt or perish.
Who suffers more?
the debtor or the lender? especially with the lender using such policies to proctect their non-democratic society.

Just a cynical view.
 
Over to part II:
Once bitten twice shy: so overseas lenders start diversifying away from lending to US consumers. This gets bad, so ok, lets just devalue the currency, what is an overseas country going to do about it??? The debt is in US dollars (at least they werent stupid about this).
This may make it hard on the US consumer, but if there are no more 'fixes', one thing the US consumer has learnt over time in the US is adapt or perish.
Who suffers more?
the debtor or the lender? especially with the lender using such policies to proctect their non-democratic society.

Just a cynical view.
I don't see the US foreign debt as a problem for US and the US$, so I don't see the US policy keen to rip off foreign investor in USA (at least not as much as Australia would be keen). To put some number US foreign assets at the end of last year (with a very strong US$) where around 20 tril$, foreign holding in Us around 23.4 tril$. The foreign ownership of US treasury didn't even make 900 bil$, foreigners in US have much more assets not directly related to US government that could go busted anytime without US governemnt beeing directly liable. In any case, at current exchange rate, recently overseas assets from US resident would have gone much higher where not denominated in US$ and the one owned by foreigners in US wouldn't have gone up that much (the S&P 500 underperform other worldwide index as well). Same thing apply with UK.
Also another point is that US consumer discretionary spending is at something around 50 year low when related to GDP. That gets me to the point about the US manufacturing/indutrial companies that might not have much downside from the production point of view and their export can only increase (with lower US$ and much improving productivity). GDP potentially can decrease lots with reduction of government spending and demand related to it (that first or later will come). Also, chilliaa, it is not that you can just devaluate or revaluate currency at government wish (except the chinese). As I said previously it is a debt problem, mainly within US, at the end who will suffer more is US people, everyone just own something to everyone though the banking/lending system with in my opinion an inevitable deflation, it just need to happen that everyone need to pay back everyone else. when that happen there shouldn't be much spare money to push assets prices up and that force people to pay off even more in a spiral deflation because debt gets more expensive in relation to income and assets purchased with debt. The best way out is productivity with US company allowed to pay more for workers even if price of goods keep falling, if US company profits will stay good after the first shock economy will eventually recover. very good productivity increase has been obtained already with the higher unemployment rate, infact US can produce a comparable amount of gdp with much less workers.
This is no valid for australia that is "different" ;)
bluecard: I think if you would "set the record straight" properly in the first place I wouldn't have had problem to understand what you are writing about and to set the goal posts properly and to avoid acting like your mother in law.
 
bluecard: I think if you would "set the record straight" properly in the first place I wouldn't have had problem to understand what you are writing about and to set the goal posts properly and to avoid acting like your mother in law.

the only difference between what i said previously and what you just saw was a quote showing china's export market.....:rolleyes:
 
Here is the latest from the evrgreen robert kiyosaki - he still pushing the superannuation armagedon angle.

qte

Posted on Monday 24th August 2009, 12:00AM

"Is the crisis over?" is a question I am often asked. "Is the economy coming back?"

My reply is, "I don't think so. I would prepare for the worst." Like most people, I wish for a better future for all of us. Life is better when people are working, happy, and spending money. The stock market has been going up since March 9, 2009. Talk of “green shoots” fills the air. Yet, in spite of the more positive news, I continue to recommend that people prepare for the worst. The following are some of my reasons:

1. I believe the stock market is being manipulated. I suspect the government, banks, and Wall Street are doing everything they can to keep the market from crashing. Our leaders know that nothing makes the world feel better than a raging bull market.

Do I have any proof that the market is being manipulated?

No. I just smell a rat, or a pack of rats. I believe greed, self-interest, arrogance, and fear control the financial markets. I suspect those in charge will do anything to keep us all from panicking and I don't blame them. A global panic would be ugly and dangerous.

2. In my view, this global crisis has been caused by the Federal Reserve Bank, the U.S. Treasury, Wall Street, and the central banks of the world. They caused the problem, profited excessively in doing so, and now profit by being asked to fix the problem.

Every time I hear a politician mentions the word stimulus, my mind flashes back to high school biology class, when I touched battery wires to a dead frog to make it twitch.

Today, you and I are the dead frogs. Pretty soon the dead frog will be fried frog. In the 1980s, our government's hot money stimulus was measured only in the millions of dollars. By the 1990s, the government had to ramp the stimulus voltage into the billions in order to get the frog to twitch. Today the frog has jumper cables with trillions in high-voltage hot money pouring through the lines.

While most of us feel better when we have more high-voltage money in our hands, none of us feel good about higher taxes, increasing national debt, and rising inflation for the long term. Another old saying goes, "Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease." I say the government stimulus cure is killing us frogs.

3. Old frogs don't hop. Another reason I am cautious about the future is that the Western world has a growing number of old frogs. Between 1970 and 2000, the economy responded to bailouts and stimulus packages because the baby boomers of the world were entering their greatest earning years -- their purchasing power increased, and demand for homes, cars, refrigerators, computers, and TVs boosted the economy.

The stimulus plans seemed to work. But when a person turns 60, their spending habits change dramatically. They stop consuming and start conserving like a bear preparing for winter. The economy of the Western world is heading into winter. Hot wires and hot money will not get old frogs to hop. Old frogs will simply join the bears and stick that money in the bank as they prepare for the long, hard winter known as old age. The businesses that will do well in a winter economy are drug companies, hospitals, wheelchair manufacturers, and mortuaries.

4. The dying frog economy will lead us to the biggest Ponzi schemes of all: Social Security and Medicare. If we think this subprime financial crisis is big, it's my opinion that this crisis will be dwarfed by the crisis brewing in Social Security and Medicare...Medicare being the biggest crisis of all. As old frogs head for the big lily pad in the sky, they will demand young frogs spend even more in tax dollars just to keep old frogs from croaking.

5. The 401(k) Ponzi scheme. A Ponzi scheme, like the scheme Madoff ran, depends upon young money to pay off old money. In other words, a Ponzi scheme needs tadpoles to finance old frogs. The same is true for the 401(k) and other retirement plans to work. If young money does not come into the stock market, the old money cannot retire. One reason so many people my age are worried, not only about Social Security and Medicare, is because they're concerned about getting their money out of the stock market before the other old frogs decide to drain the swamp.

The facts are that the 401(k) plan has a trigger that requires old frogs to begin withdrawing their money at a certain age. In other words, as baby boomers grow older, more and more will be required, by law, to begin withdrawing their money from the market. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to know that it is hard for a market to keep going up when more and more people are getting out.

The reason the 401(k) has this law related to mandatory withdrawals is because the Federal government wants to collect the taxes that they deferred when the worker's money went into the plan. In other words, the taxman wants their pound of flesh. Since they allowed the worker to invest without paying taxes, the government wants their tax dollars when the employee retires. That is why the laws require older workers to sell their shares and pay their pound of flesh.

Demographics show that we are entering a battle between young and old. I call it the "Age War." The young want to hang onto their money to grow their families, businesses, and wealth. The old want the tax and investment dollars of the young to sustain their old age. This war is not coming...it is upon us now. This is one of many reasons why I remain cautious and say, "The worst is yet to come."

uqnte

That should kick of anoher round of interesting comments

cheers
Aussie
 
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