Brisbane dual occ rule change?

[8fold]

Hi all,
I am interested in finding out if there was a change in the BCC's approach from their "anti granny flat" stance. It was mentioned here:

http://somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78263

that there may have been a review carried out in the last couple of monthsa round the end of July. I have never been able to find anything out online and am wondering if someone more in the know may have some info?

Thanks
Scott

 

[LJW]

Hi Scott

BCC don't have any anti granny flat stance. They just have an anti dual occupancy stance (i.e. granny flat being rented out separately to the house) where not in an appropriate zone.

BCC have not changed their stance on the above, and as far as i'm aware there is no intention to.

Cheers
Liam

 

[8fold]

Hi Liam,
You are correct, I should have said they are opposed to a"someone else's granny" flat i.e. as you state dual occ. I do find it a bit contradictory on the BCC website, in the new house FAQ document it states quite clearly:

"Can you rent out a Secondary Dwelling (granny flat) under a house?

No. Acceptable Solution A8 in the House Code states that a House must be used by a single household group. Renting out a Secondary Dwelling or "granny flat" would be contrary to the Acceptable Solution as the house is used by one group and the Secondary Dwelling by an autonomous group.

Non-compliance with the acceptable solutions triggers a notifiable code application."

However if I go to A8 it has multiple points:
Performance criteria
House must be used for domestic residential purposes
Acceptable solutions
A8 The main dwelling, together with any secondary dwelling, is used by a household group comprising
• 1 person maintaining a household, or
• 2 or more persons related by blood, marriage or adoption, or
• not more than 6 persons, not necessarily related by blood, marriage or adoption, or
• not more than 6 persons under the age of 18 and not necessarily related by blood, marriage or adoption, together with 1 or 2 adult persons who have care and control of them, or
• not more than 6 persons with disabilities permanently occupying a dwelling where care or assistance is provided by other persons, provided that no more than 2 of these other persons reside at the dwelling

so this is telling me that 6 random people can inhabit the house? I guess the term "a household group" seems to be the sticking point. What triggered my question was Andrew saying in this thread: http://somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?p=881190#post881190

"There's a review due for Brisbane in 2012 about this type of housing.. fingers crossed somebody has some common sense and we get some sensible granny flat rules."

Anyone else have info on this?
Thanks
Scott

 

[RPI]

HI

Nothing has changed as far as I am aware. If you buy a building with a granny flat and then rent it out separately to so that no more than 6 unrelated people are in there, then that is an argument that can be made. However, you can not build a granny flat for a non-related person and you must furnish a statement to the council as part of the application stating such

IF you were to state that your were building a granny flat for a related person you would need to do so and if you then rented out to a different person you would be in breach. This could enable the council to issue with an enforcement notice under the Sustainable Planning Act. Decent size fines and a reverse onus of proof, ie you need to demonstrate why you are not guilty of the alleged breach. Not fun and not reccommended.

 

[Andrew_A]

Hi all,
I am interested in finding out if there was a change in the BCC's approach from their "anti granny flat" stance. It was mentioned here:

http://somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78263

that there may have been a review carried out in the last couple of monthsa round the end of July. I have never been able to find anything out online and am wondering if someone more in the know may have some info?

Thanks
Scott

Scott,

The following is from an email I received at the start of 2012 from a housing analyst in the department of communities, not sure of the latest update with their work but I imagine the wheels of change are turning slowly!

...

Thank you for your interest in the work the Department of Communities is undertaking around secondary dwellings.

We are currently in the initial research and drafting stages of the project, and plan to commence consultation with key stakeholders in the next few months to determine the most appropriate option for encouraging secondary dwellings. At this stage, a formal public consultation process is planned for mid 2012.

 

[8fold]

Thanks guys that is great info, with any luck we may only be 3 or 4 years behind Sydney...

 

[LJW]

• not more than 6 persons, not necessarily related by blood, marriage or adoption, or

Under the BCC House Code, this is now 5 persons (not 6). While Council does not specifically allow the granny flat to be used by a second household group, from discussions I have had with Building Certifiers, provided the secondary dwelling shares laundry facilities with the house (i.e. there is not a separate laundry in the granny flat), you can rent out both the house and granny flat separately (provided of course that there are no more than 5 unrelated people living in both the house and granny flat).

 

[DEC]

Under the BCC House Code, this is now 5 persons (not 6). While Council does not specifically allow the granny flat to be used by a second household group, from discussions I have had with Building Certifiers, provided the secondary dwelling shares laundry facilities with the house (i.e. there is not a separate laundry in the granny flat), you can rent out both the house and granny flat separately (provided of course that there are no more than 5 unrelated people living in both the house and granny flat).

This would be very helpful if there was something in writing or a link

provided the secondary dwelling shares laundry facilities with the house (i.e. there is not a separate laundry in the granny flat), you can rent out both the house and granny flat separately

No separate laundry as such but I wonder if you could have a washing machine in a cupboard in the kitchen or Bathroom like many units have?

 

[8fold]

No separate laundry as such but I wonder if you could have a washing machine in a cupboard in the kitchen or laundry like many units have?

I was thinking exactly the same thing...
LJW (or anyone for that matter), can you recommend a certifier for the Brisbane area who is good to deal with? There is a lot advertised but many seem to be the big boys with a lot of staff who I dont find usually helpful.

 

[LJW]

I would have a chat to Troy Ellerman at Innovative Building Approvals, who we use fairly regularly.

http://www.innovativebuildingapprovals.com.au/

 

[8fold]

Thanks LJW, very helpful I will give him a call.

 

[poidda]

So just to be clear on this.

If I live in a Low Density Residential Area in Brisbane, can rent build a Granny Flat and rent it out?

I am looking at a house at the moment which has the option to build in underneath.

If I bought this place, could I build a completely separate granny flat underneath and rent it out as two separate flats?

Cheers.

 

[8fold]

Hi Poidda,
My understanding is that if you are building the granny flat then no you cannot stay entirely within the law and rent it out to people who are unrelated to the residents in the primary dwelling.

The following is the notice of change back to 5 unrelated people as per LJW's advice

http://www.ttplanning.com.au/pdf/Amendments to the House Code.pdf

If you are building a new flat I believe this applies:

http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/plan...g/building-your-house/new-house-faq/index.htm

So not looking good...

 

[DEC]

From last weeks local paper

 

[hughesy]

BCC not being truthful about renting granny flats

Hi Liam,
You are correct, I should have said they are opposed to a"someone else's granny" flat i.e. as you state dual occ. I do find it a bit contradictory on the BCC website, in the new house FAQ document it states quite clearly:

"Can you rent out a Secondary Dwelling (granny flat) under a house?

No. Acceptable Solution A8 in the House Code states that a House must be used by a single household group. Renting out a Secondary Dwelling or "granny flat" would be contrary to the Acceptable Solution as the house is used by one group and the Secondary Dwelling by an autonomous group.

Non-compliance with the acceptable solutions triggers a notifiable code application."

However if I go to A8 it has multiple points:
Performance criteria
House must be used for domestic residential purposes
Acceptable solutions
A8 The main dwelling, together with any secondary dwelling, is used by a household group comprising
• 1 person maintaining a household, or
• 2 or more persons related by blood, marriage or adoption, or
• not more than 6 persons, not necessarily related by blood, marriage or adoption, or
• not more than 6 persons under the age of 18 and not necessarily related by blood, marriage or adoption, together with 1 or 2 adult persons who have care and control of them, or
• not more than 6 persons with disabilities permanently occupying a dwelling where care or assistance is provided by other persons, provided that no more than 2 of these other persons reside at the dwelling

so this is telling me that 6 random people can inhabit the house? I guess the term "a household group" seems to be the sticking point. What triggered my question was Andrew saying in this thread: http://somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?p=881190#post881190

"There's a review due for Brisbane in 2012 about this type of housing.. fingers crossed somebody has some common sense and we get some sensible granny flat rules."

Anyone else have info on this?
Thanks
Scott

my experince is that the city council will not give an honest answer about renting granny flats, their web site FAQ where it refers to can i rent out a granny flat under my house? answer NO. this is actually a question about can you rent part of a house that is not legal head height. Which you cannont as it does not comply with the building code, therefore under the residential tennacy act you cannont lawfully lease it. That is the correct answer.

You can rent a granny flat in brisbane as long as it has building approval. When you complete the granny flat the rates department automatically change your rates category from category 1 (owner occupied) to category 4 (multi residential). (note: mutli residential is not the same as a multi-unit dwelling, the difference is whether it is on 1 lot or 2). If you call the rates departement they will tell you that they additional rates are because you are able to rent the main house seperatly from the granny flat. i have provided some links below to parts of the council web site that are well hidden from normal public vire that explain this.

BCC rates and charges - top page 247 - multi residential definition
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/2010...t_2011-12_Resolution_of_Rates_and_Charges.pdf

application for to change between renting and owner occupied category 4 to 1
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/forms/cc10765_application_to_change_rating_category.pdf

in answer to your above statement Liam, you are mising a key word from your statement - A8 The main dwelling, together with any secondary dwelling, is used by a household group. The words together with mean that the main house is a household group and the secondary dwelling is a household group. Each dwelling can only be used be a single household group, but as there are 2 dwellings there can be a household group in each. The point of having a secondary dwelling is to create a seperate self contained dwelling, if it is self contained it could not be occupied by only 1 group, thus why it is refered to as a multi-residential property.

also you may be interested to know that the new draft town plan out last week has now seperated owner occupied houses with granny flats from rented granny flats more clearly. it has also added a new code called the Dual Occupancy code. however the BCC is still trying to prevent the renting of both of these by putting out misleading wed site info and as the news paper article suggets putting political pressure on the decision makers.

http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/plan...new-city-plan/planning-scheme-eplan/index.htm

 

[RPI]

my experince is that the city council will not give an honest answer about renting granny flats, their web site FAQ where it refers to can i rent out a granny flat under my house? answer NO. this is actually a question about can you rent part of a house that is not legal head height. Which you cannont as it does not comply with the building code, therefore under the residential tennacy act you cannont lawfully lease it. That is the correct answer.

You can rent a granny flat in brisbane as long as it has building approval. When you complete the granny flat the rates department automatically change your rates category from category 1 (owner occupied) to category 4 (multi residential). (note: mutli residential is not the same as a multi-unit dwelling, the difference is whether it is on 1 lot or 2). If you call the rates departement they will tell you that they additional rates are because you are able to rent the main house seperatly from the granny flat. i have provided some links below to parts of the council web site that are well hidden from normal public vire that explain this.

BCC rates and charges - top page 247 - multi residential definition
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/2010...t_2011-12_Resolution_of_Rates_and_Charges.pdf

application for to change between renting and owner occupied category 4 to 1
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/forms/cc10765_application_to_change_rating_category.pdf

in answer to your above statement Liam, you are mising a key word from your statement - A8 The main dwelling, together with any secondary dwelling, is used by a household group. The words together with mean that the main house is a household group and the secondary dwelling is a household group. Each dwelling can only be used be a single household group, but as there are 2 dwellings there can be a household group in each. The point of having a secondary dwelling is to create a seperate self contained dwelling, if it is self contained it could not be occupied by only 1 group, thus why it is refered to as a multi-residential property.

I completely disagree with most of the above. Rating legislation is different then planning.

I have numerous Enforcement notices that say you can not rent separately, plus am acting in multiple Planning and Environment Court Appeals regarding same.

Very risky to do.

 

[Hysteria]

Brisbane Granny flat fines

What sort of fines would you be looking at here? Is it large amount or is it case by case situation?

 

[RPI]

If they chose to issue fines

$2,200 per day by a Council Officer

$150,000 is by a court.

Normally show cause

then enforcement

Only go to prosecution if you don't comply.

 

[portss]

Appeal of BCC Enforcement Notice for "alleged contravention of a condition in the building development approval and the alleged use of the premises for a purpose that is not a lawful use" upheld by Building and Development Dispute Resolution Committee. BCC tried to use the 2012 AAD decision to help support their argument but it didn't.

http://www.hpw.qld.gov.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/Final Decision 12-13.pdf

 

[RPI]

Appeal of BCC Enforcement Notice for "alleged contravention of a condition in the building development approval and the alleged use of the premises for a purpose that is not a lawful use" upheld by Building and Development Dispute Resolution Committee. BCC tried to use the 2012 AAD decision to help support their argument but it didn't.

http://www.hpw.qld.gov.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/Final Decision 12-13.pdf

I am familiar with this decision.

This was purely a technicality based on evidence as opposed to intent that invalidated the Enforcement Notice issued. Council would be free to issue another Enforcement Notice the next day, assuming they had the appropriate evidence.

It doesn't deal with the substantive matter at all.