BulletProof Asset Protection and Ed BURTON

NormH said:
hmm not quite. well that is what I think anyway :eek:

following your logic that means the unit price of a property trust on the stock exchange can never go down. Nor can one ever go broke. They do and they do. :)
I recognised that in Fact 4, but a lawyer would want to keep it simple and stupid by looking at actual values without going into the nitty gritty. They could most likely argue for more since the market value of the units may be higher but may not want to.

NormH said:
Now the family trust we will call HDT. if the trust we set up and run by you for you and you referred to the assets as yours then quite likely the whole thing could be pulled down in court as a "sham"
Not likely. If the trust was being run properly, all the paperwork done properly and treated at arms-length, there would be no problem. It is when you have transactions that bear no explanation other than to benefit one of the parties to the detriment of the other that you end up having problems.

EDIT - Also, for those concerned about asset protection, you may also want to be concerned about these proposed amendments currently open for discussion. Worth a good read, especially this part which is inspiring some new changes:

Some examples of arranging assets beyond the reach of creditors which are regularly
encountered by trustees and which are not covered by the current provisions are as
follows:
• where a bankrupt is a trustee or a beneficiary of a discretionary family trust,
and the trust holds assets or income derived from the bankrupt; and
• where a bankrupt’s matrimonial home is in the name of their spouse but the
bankrupt contributes towards the payment of the mortgage on that home.
 
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ggumpshots said:
Thanks I was confused 5k on Imp credits.
However why/when/what is a family trust election?


Hi Ggumpshots.

As far as I know, a family trust election can be made on a Discretionary Trust, before the end of a financial year, if you are going to have more then 5 k of imputation credits, or have losses to carry forward. Im not sure, but I think perhaps this election is irrevocable once made. It effects your distributions ever so slightly. You have to nominate a test individual (parent, yourself, spouse) and I think you can only go two generations from the test individual. Basically it would mean you can still distribute to pretty much any family member (unless there was a divorce) but you could not distribute to people outside the family.

There may be more to it than this, but thats pretty much how I see it.

cheers
mono

p.s Im still unsure if a HDT can make a Family Trust Election seeing people say it operates as a DT when properties are positively geared.
 
Great Thread

Great Thread and i'm enjoying the differing opinions on Trust structures;

BULLETPROOF ASSET PROTECTION is also a group in Perth, which appears to be part of Ed BURTONS Franchise. His book was for sale at a seminar i went to at the BURSWOOD the other night for $59.95 (from memory) and the cost of an appointment ranged from free to $220.00 (depending on your financial position)then the cost of setting up a Trust ..it was interesting to listen to and they were very busy at the property investing seminar (560 people attended)

REDWING
 
The cost of setting up a trust :)

I can tell you mine

1) Trustee company registration $700 then I have the cost
of keeping the company registered and that is $220/yr

2) HDT from my lawyer $900 no other ongoing costs. Justin, spent sometime talking to ChrisBatten and supplied me with Chris' HDT and Justin was more than happy to recommend it. Justin has been my Lawyer for sometime. The $900 included his time talking to Chris and then going through the document, getting all the correct signatures and then having it stamped. - great value I thought.

I then have the ongoing tax and accounting fees I use Dale Gatherum-Goss in Victoria, yep I live in SouthAust but it works well.
http://www.gatherumgoss.com/

This can vary but considering company returns, personal returns for self and wife and HDT returns it is all worth it.

Norman
 
NormH said:
The cost of setting up a trust :)

I can tell you mine

1) Trustee company registration $700 then I have the cost
of keeping the company registered and that is $220/yr

2) HDT from my lawyer $900 no other ongoing costs. Justin, spent sometime talking to ChrisBatten and supplied me with Chris' HDT and Justin was more than happy to recommend it. Justin has been my Lawyer for sometime. The $900 included his time talking to Chris and then going through the document, getting all the correct signatures and then having it stamped. - great value I thought.

I then have the ongoing tax and accounting fees I use Dale Gatherum-Goss in Victoria, yep I live in SouthAust but it works well.
http://www.gatherumgoss.com/

This can vary but considering company returns, personal returns for self and wife and HDT returns it is all worth it.

Norman


Thats cheap Norm. How long ago was this?
I take it, that its a good deed, and your happy with it?

Cheers
mono
 
It is a good deed and I am very happy with it. I did the corporate thing myself, Justin said it would add about $150 for him to do it and that was fairly straight forward. I only needed to ask a couple of questions.

It took me about 14+years of asking "trust questions" getting a consistant response of "you are not in a high risk job so you don't need a trust" from my 2 accountants over that time and a financial planner, thus buying properties of 99% in high income earner name and 1% in low income earner name, then I spoke to DaleGG a number of times before embarking upon the path of research (about 14mths) to get a solid understanding of the structures, how they worked and how they might fit my circumstances, reading both of Dales books in that time. Finally I was happy, I was surrounded by people who were informed, had my financial well being in mind and wanted to help me get it right. People who in reality could have charged me a fortune but imparted information and knowledge in the context of helping a person out, it was then that my business flowed to them, I already had Justin however.

I am not sure of how much Chris charges other lawyers and Justin has been my lawyer for quite some time so there are things that he does for me that I would not get charged for or he discounts his time for me. He did a great job of vetting and explaining the operation of the trust to me with some pointers to watch for in the deed re the responsibility of the trustee. He also spent some time communicating with my accountant (DaleGG) to ensure it all fitted with what I wanted and how Dale felt about it. All in all between the 3 of them, Justin/Dale/Chris I will only sing praises and recommendations to all who would like to listen.

Trustee company has been going 21mths and HDT 12mths or there abouts.

I will confess it took about 9mths to get it all sorted out and that was due to me not signing things properly on the incorporation documents and so I had to redo some stuff. ChrisBatten being very busy around the end of Financial year time (about 3 or 4 weeks) and then Justin having other priorities ie court etc, then me having a witness to a house purchase on the Gov't stamps that was going into the trust at the same time also being a director of the trust :( that is not liked.

Through all of this he knew I was not in any urgent hurry, and when it came to needing it done to get a house into the trust then it popped out within about 2 weeks.

The time frames are general but ballpark, I dont' go through life recording events on a daily basis. :)

*** Nerd alert, I am an Electronics Engineer working on Network Design about 50years old and tend to be a bit of a pain, pedantic, so will learn, research and fully understand something before jumping, how ever once that point is reached I shall jump fearlessly ***

I rue the time I wasted, by listening to the earlier advice, not following through and crosschecking, it has cost me a small fortune. That is why at the beginning of this thread I was saying, build in the flexibility now, and get it right now, then you can, in the future not look back and curse the incorrect advise. Admittedly back in 1987 I would have been put in an a DT and not an HDT but at least my properties that are currently outside the trust would be protected and I would have had extra deductions and I would not be in a situation of costing about $8,000+ in stamps per property and dunno how much in CGT to put them in to the now trust.

Plus the 99%/1% is great when they are negative geared but for a couple of them, NOT NOW cos the high income earner now pays the tax on the rent :( due to eventually they all will go positive, so i am now looking at tax vis cost of selling them into the trust and out of my name.

Norman
 
NormH said:
Bill sorry about your friend and I extend my condolances to you and your friends family. Yes as we get older, what is important tends to change and the invaluable things in life are those around us.

I agree with you about the 'level of understanding' and it is discussions like this that help. Hence the value of this forum and this medium where many people can discuss points and share information/knowledge.
There are a number of institutes that appear to have problems with the HDT but I think it comes down more to who you are talking to within the institution and how much they are willing to listen/learn or ask the correct question within their organisation.

All the best, thanks for the conversation and hope all is well

cheers

Norman
Thanks for the thoughts Norm.

Goodness - I go away for a day or two and this post just keeps on running :) Seems to have taken on a life of it's own! Might be worth keeping some of the HDT information from this post as a future reference/resource (some sort of summary or as a sticky?) - any thoughts?

Bill
 
: )

You can count on Geoff :D (1-2-3)

I'm currently reading Dale's books Tax battles and Trust Magic as well, having bought them last week to understand a bit more about Trust structures..all very interesting.

we have 3 IP's and have just paid one out in full with a recent loan restructuring..so finally own a property 'unencumbered'. We are looking after a family property for a year; so living rent free apart from electricity etc anfd looking to buy our next property, this time we want to purcahse under a Trust Structure for Asset protection as well as the other benefits (we have 2 kids one being 8 months old)

The whole concept is a maze for a beginner and i'm glad those of you with a better understanding than me are keeping this thread going as well as discussing pertanant points regarding Trusts and your opinions and experiences..

REDWING
 
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Geoff thanks for the comment :D I will confess to not even realising.

Redwing in my early days I lurked on this forum for maybe 12mths before registering and starting to contribute and put something back to help others.
Many are better at it than me but happy to answer Q's when I can.

We all had to start somewhere, and this forum if full of opinions and advice that in the bulk of cases is constructive and freely given.

So hang around, keep asking Q's and enjoy the ride, it really can be fun. :)

Norman
 
Guys
You have all done very well in covering the issues on Disc V HDT

Apologies for my absence from the forum.

I must admit that i am a little confused. I have had 3-4 clients come into my office who are now Ed Burton "asset protection specialists". I am happy to see them but why come and see me then compete with me in selling trusts ????

Whilst Ed's concepts and educational material is very good, it does take years to get the theories right and i sincerely hope that the "specialists" who have purchased the franchise packages have the appropriate insurances and structures in place.

please correct me if i am wrong but I understand that the "specialists" are not supposed to give advice.

Whilst Ed's concepts are quite sound one must be careful not to go too crazy about asset protection. I have seen some people with 1 property = 1 trust. The only real winner here would be the accountant !

I believe that a HDT is the most flexible structure for property investing.

Asset protection can be achieved as Coastymike has shown and I agree with most of what he has written. Remember that a DT will also distribute income each year if it is positive geared, this will create and asset in the name of teh beneficiary. This means potential risk.

Whilst the structure is extremely important - maintaining it every year correctly is equally important.

I can understand why Ed would not want to have consultants promoting them. They can become complex and the wrong advice may result in a bullet proof asset protection specialist being sued.

As Dale once said (many times)
"Have Fun"

Nick M
 
NickM said:
They can become complex and the wrong advice may result in a bullet proof asset protection specialist being sued.

Suing an asset protection specialist? That sounds like an exercise in futility.
 
Hi NickM

Good to see you on this thread as well with this being your area of expertise also.

REDWING
 
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HDT's

Thanks to everyone for contributing to this thread it Certainly got peoples interest * sparked * the issue of Trusts looks to be complex but worthwhile from an investing standpoint and many people have looked at these posts with interest.

I’ve been given one of Ed BURTONS books on Asset Protection and am reviewing that, I also have Dale’s two books to review.

Many Thanks

REDWING
 
This thread took me forever to read and kept me out of bed - but it was worth it. Thanks to all that contributed. I esp enjoyed CM and wbthom's discussion, however like some mentioned I would have loved if Dale had been around to contribute. :)
 
Trusts...

Good to see this post still has legs..

I’ve enjoyed the input from everyone as well, Just watched Ed Burtons DVD the other day and am reading Nick RENTONS book on Trusts ( By the time I’m finished I’ll have to start again) It’s a fascinating subject..
 
I just caught up with the thread and read all the way through.

Thanks to all those who have contributed. It has certainly increased my understanding of HDTs. :)

I am considering setting up an HDT for my next property purchases.

What is holding me back is the land tax in NSW. I understand that, if you put a property in a trust, the land tax is NSW becomes 1.4%, while if it is not in a trust, it is much less.

Is that still correct? An annual tax of 1.4% is no small thing. Wouldn't it make it not worthwhile to put NSW properties in a trust? :confused:

Cheers,
 
The founder of bullet proof asset protection

I just thought that this man deserved some kudos for being the first Australian to employ such techniques.

Mark ;)
 
House_Keeper said:
What is holding me back is the land tax in NSW. I understand that, if you put a property in a trust, the land tax is NSW becomes 1.4%, while if it is not in a trust, it is much less.

Is that still correct? An annual tax of 1.4% is no small thing. Wouldn't it make it not worthwhile to put NSW properties in a trust? :confused:

Cheers,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is 1.7% now. :mad:
 
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