Buyer's Agents - Silent listings

[dwyerfam]

From: Danny Dwyer


I was interested to read in the Weekend Australian (Money Section) re Buyer's agents boom. It was stated by the agent that " We have an advantage over ordinary people because we have access to silent listings and properties that are not officially on the market".

Is this 'common' in the real estate game, keeping quite about some properties? I guess one has to be "in the know" to get properties at below market value and make friends with the real estate agents etc. to get these sort of deals.

Humm....

Danny D.

 

[WebBoard]

Reply: 1
From: Dan D


I wonder if such 'silent' listings are necessarily in the best interests of the seller. After all, the price of a property is not a science but is determined by demand and supply. If you limit the demand because you don't list the property on the open market, then surely it is just about inevitable that 'true' market value cannot be achieved for the seller.

It's all very well for the buyer to try and find that 'below market value' property, but this is not the sound of music for the seller.

I know life is unfair, but I hope that the person who sells is not a poor elder person who needs to pay for their entry into a nursing home, are desperate and are unable to fend for themselves when it comes to obtaining the best price for their property and possibly only asset they have.

I don't want to get wealthy at the expense of another person's misery.

Dan.

 

[WebBoard]

Reply: 1.1
From: Jeanette .


I am very annoyed at this practice. I have 2 experiences with it. The first - my new neighbour told me that the house they sold in their old suburb never went on the market. It was sold as soon as she gave it to the agent because the agent told her he had a list of investors waiting. When she told me how much she sold it for I told her that it was between 20K to 40K under market value. She said she now realised that but at the time she was persuaded by the agent's 'expertise'. The other experience I had was when I had a property to sell and a very pushy agent also 'had a list of investors waiting' who he wanted to sell my property to. When I asked him what he wanted to sell it for, it was 20K below what I believed it was worth. I ended up selling it quickly with another agent for 25K above what the first agent wanted to sell it for. While recently looking for a house in an area outside where I live, I couldn't find anything and I was told by one agent that 'I would have to get in good with the agents' to hear about the properties before they were listed. I will not be a part of this practice. They can keep their 'private listings'.

 

[Kevmeister]

Reply: 1.1.1
From: Kevin Frey


Let me first state that I like to think I am an ethical, moral, and considerate individual.

Surely it is not in the RE's interest to sell a property under market value if that means he gets less of a commission? Even more annoying is when the RE does "deals" to get certain property passed on to his friends and relatives before listing.

But back to the morality of all this...

What is the difference between this and someone doing wraps who is charging an individual 2+% above bank interest rates? Is it fair to charge someone "down and out" a higher interest rate? (The likes of Liberty Financial, Avco, and Custom Credit seem to think so).

What is the difference between this and investment companies who achieve growth by investing in tobacco companies (leading, I might add, to a number of "ethical" funds appearing in the market)?

Investment is about making a profit. That means you are profiting from something or someone. Profit is usually not made in a vacuum. Where does one draw the line as to whether it is reasonable or not? How many of us as "investors" (well, I'm a budding investor) really hate how much profit the banks earn?

I am paying off my own home because I decided that I did not want to rent for the purpose of making someone else wealthy. My brother rents, on the other hand, and he is essentially paying off a unit/townhouse for its owner.

Is the fairness of an investment therefore dependent on the %age return you receive like it's OK to get a 10% return on an investment property because you're not "ripping anyone off" but it's not fair to get a 40% return?

 

[Les]

Reply: 1.1.1.1
From: Les .



G'day Kevin,

Some interesting questions there.

This one in particular caught my eye:-

Kevin>> But back to the morality of all this...

What is the difference between this and someone doing wraps who is charging an individual 2+% above bank interest rates? Is it fair to charge someone "down and out" a higher interest rate? (The likes of Liberty Financial, Avco, and Custom Credit seem to think so).

Les>> I think there is a world of difference between your average wrapper, and one of those organisations. I recall a time (some years back) when I wanted to borrow to put up a carport, and a bit of landscaping. I had received a flyer in my letterbox from Avco, so went and had a talk.

They were prepared to lend me the $3000 I wanted, (at 27% interest!!) and then wanted a caveat on my home!!! Now THAT IS a rip-off - they are receiving TOP interest, but want it insured with a caveat??? I went elsewhere.


Now, your average wrapper is (IMHO) providing a service to someone who cannot get a loan from a normal lender. So, they are taking a risk, and MORE of a risk than a Bank is prepared to accept. The only other alternative for the buyer of a "wrap" is renting!!! This way, they have a shot at home ownership. Yes, there are risks for them too - they are buying a property for a higher amount than it would cost if they could go through a Bank and purchase it in the "normal" way. But they DON'T HAVE that option.

As long as they do things right, they will end up owning a property that will appreciate in value over time. And, in years to come, they will have equity in it - NOT possible if they continued to rent!!!


I haven't wrapped a property yet, but know personally several people who do this. In most cases, they allow someone to BUY a property for the SAME (or LESS) cost per week as their rent would have been.

And, yes, there may well be some "bad apples" out there that are ripping off buyers - there will always be someone on the take somewhere. But the ones I know don't subscribe to this unethical behaviour - they simply want a GOOD return to compensate for the work they do, and the risk they take.


Check out a few wrappers at the next get-together. I'm sure they'd be happy to chat and answer questions for you,

Regards,



Les


- "Eschew Obfuscation" - ;^)

 

[Kevmeister]

Reply: 1.1.1.1.1
From: Kevin Frey


Hi Les,

I wasn't for a minute trying to suggest wrappers are ripping people off, but as you implicitly pointed out there is a degree beyond which something might well be considered a rip-off.

Take your case with Avco. Something about their deal led you to believe it was a rip-off, whether it was the caveat on your home or the excessive interest rate.

I'm just pointing out that it's very hard to be ethical in investment because it's about making a profit usually funded by someone else (ie. at their expense) so at what point is it "fair" versus "not fair".

I guess different people will consider what is fair or not fair in their particular circumstances. I was looking at the Freestylers forum the other day under the Young Entrepreneur's section and there is a post about a young girl who buys lollies from the shop at 15 cents each and sells them to the other school kids for 50 cents each.

Is that a rip off? Would it change your mind if you knew the buyers knew how much the lollies cost to buy and were still willing purchasers (presumably because they are lazy to walk to the shop and buy their own?).

Should we get upset if someone gets a better deal that we didn't have access to, such as an investor getting a house below market value before the property even lists?

Kevin.

 

[TheBacon]

Reply: 1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Duanne Ginger


Hi there,
we buy and sell hings every day. Someone ALWAYS pays more at retail for a product than the shop paid for it wholesale. Is this unethical? Should the shop owner just cover costs and give himself a basic wage, or is he allowed to make a profit?

Is it ok to sell a property for more than you bought it? Should you only mark it up at the inflation rate?

I hate to see the poor, sick and uneducated ripped off as much as you do, but property investment CAN be done ethically. We CAN get rich and keep our souls (though the Bible does say something about rich men, camels and eyes of needles).

I agree with you in that ethics and business are not two separate things, they must go hand in hand. However it is entirely fair and ethical to charge for a service (eg wrapping to someone who cant afford a loan from a bank) or to sell your house at CURRENT value not PAST value.

Capitalism is not evil, just as communism is not evil. We live in a capitalist society howevr...

My 2 cents. Duanne

 

[Ross Sondergeld]

Reply: 2
From: Ross Sondergeld


Hi Danny,


Subject: Buyer's Agents - Silent listings



Danny said, "I was interested to read in the Weekend Australian (Money
Section) re Buyer's agents boom. It was stated by the agent that " We have
an advantage over ordinary people because we have access to silent listings
and properties that are not officially on the market".


Correct... A "real" buyer agent can buy anything! We can approach anyone and
we can find things before it's really for sale. For example, I mostly do
waterfront properties... and half of my most recent deals were direct to
seller... (before it was officially for sale.)




Danny also said,"Is this 'common' in the real estate game, keeping quite
about some properties? I guess one has to be "in the know" to get properties
at below market value and make friends with the real estate agents etc. to
get these sort of deals. Humm.... Danny D."


A buyer agent doesn't list property for sale therefore... it's NOT a silent
listing. We just know about certain information and we used that to find and
BUY. (We represent the buyer and we therefore... chase expired lisitngs...
follow unkept homes... we run with a lead... we hear a romur and we chase
it.. soem seller agents feed us info, etc.

At present... on the Gold Coast... it's first in... then Bought/Sold.

Good property.. correctly priced... goes extremely quick...





Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

Creative Real Estate Solutions Mobile 0412 289 464
Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast [email protected]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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[Ross Sondergeld]

Reply: 1.2
From: Ross Sondergeld


Hi Dan D,



Buyer's Agents - Silent listings


Dan D said, "I wonder if such 'silent' listings are necessarily in the best
interests of the seller. After all, the price of a property is not a science
but is determined by demand and supply. If you limit the demand because you
don't list the property on the open market, then surely it is just about
inevitable that 'true' market value cannot be achieved for the seller...."


Silent listings? I think you're thinking about a pocket listing for a seller
agent. Basically they keep it to themselves... and don't tell anyone
including their own office.. then they try to SELL that property when the
time is right.





Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

Creative Real Estate Solutions Mobile 0412 289 464
Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast [email protected]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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[Ross Sondergeld]

Reply: 1.1.2
From: Ross Sondergeld


Hi Jeannette,


Buyer's Agents - Silent listings


Jeanette said, "I am very annoyed at this practice. I have 2 experiences
with it. The first - my new neighbour told me that the house they sold in
their old suburb never went on the market. It was sold as soon as she gave
it to the agent because the agent
told her he had a list of investors waiting...."


I think you're talking about a traditional SELLER AGENT.

They get a listing and flog it as quick as they can.



P.S. Buyer agent LOVE these SELLER AGENTS... they normally screw every
seller they deal with... and you just follow that "seller agent" to get a
bargain.


Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

Creative Real Estate Solutions Mobile 0412 289 464
Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast [email protected]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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[Ross Sondergeld]

SELLER Agent - Silent listings (...is better)

Reply: 1.1.1.2
From: Ross Sondergeld


Hi Kevin,



SELLER Agent - Silent listings (is better)

Kevin said,"Let me first state that I like to think I am an ethical, moral,
and considerate individual. Surely it is not in the RE's interest to sell a
property under market value if that means he gets less of a commission?
Etc..."


Seller agents are legally obligated to get the highest price.

Buyer agents are legally obligated to get the LOWEST price.


Technically, if a buyer agent finds a seller that will sell something for
70% of market value... then it's not the buyer agents job to advise them on
price.



Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

Creative Real Estate Solutions Mobile 0412 289 464
Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast [email protected]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

 

[stomek]

Reply: 2.1
From: Simon Tomek


For those of you that are interested in purchasing value for money property in Melbourne, have a read of the attachment I have placed here and feel free to email or call me on 0422 303 280.

We are not buyers agents or sellers agents. We just get hands on top quality investments and offer them at wholesale prices - usually means way below bank val.

cheers
sime

 

[asy]

Reply: 2.1.1
From: Asy .


OMG Simon,

How blatant is this post?

Don't you think it belongs in Cav Empt???????

Seriously, advertising like this (and yours is not alone) is insulting to the intellect of forumites.

Oh, and just out of interest, since you are not a buyers agent or a sellers agent, and you are (assumedly) getting a fee, um what licensing do you have. It mustn't be a real estate agent's licence, since your advertisement is on letterhead, and I'm sure you would know that all RE letterhead must have the name of the agency and the officer in effective control printed on it.

Just thought I'd ask, in view of the current thread about buyers agents, and licensing elsewhere on the forum.

)

asy



"Don't forget what happened to the guy who suddenly got everything he ever wanted...
He lived happily ever after.
(Willy Wonka).

 

[asy]

Reply: 2.1.1.1
From: Asy .


Addendum to previous post:

Simon,

Question for you, on in-depth reading of your profile.

You give people the option of marketing and selling properties, which you provide, to their clients, for a commission.

Would you please be kind enough to let us know how you manage this under the current Victorian legislation?

Please, don't anyone misunderstand me, I am NOT suggesting that they are doing anything wrong, I am just REALLY interested in how it can be done legally. Trust me when I say that I have read the acts, and I am interested that there is a way to do things that I have not heard of.

Look forward to your reply )

asy


"Don't forget what happened to the guy who suddenly got everything he ever wanted...
He lived happily ever after.
(Willy Wonka).

 

[asy]

Reply: 2.1.1.1.1
From: Asy .


Hang on, you must be Agents if you offer property management.

Ok, now I am really confused.

D

asy


"Don't forget what happened to the guy who suddenly got everything he ever wanted...
He lived happily ever after.
(Willy Wonka).

 

[stomek]

Reply: 2.1.1.1.1.1
From: Simon Tomek


Asy,

Thank you for your posts. Sorry my post confused you. Don't know why it should really.

Your point about officer in effective control is taken - it should be noted on all letterheads.

However, WPB is fully licensed and has all the requirements of the Estate Agents Act in place. Thank you for your concern.

Regarding giving "people" the option of selling and marketing properties, please note the section heading on top of page 2. It reads "WPB service to Property Marketers".

These marketing companies are required to be structured according to Law and require adequate licensing. It is not an advertisement for any bloke to go sell property.

As for property management, WPB has negotiated competitive rates with Dingle Partners and Kingsford Properties. It's that simple really.

And finally, I make no apologies for advertising like this. I do post a number of deals in Caveat Emptor and have established a strong network. My actions are not intended to insult the "forumites". Many people have contacted me for further information. This is a message board and I intend to post messages. If what I post doesn't suit you, don't reply - it's that simple really.

cheers
sime

 

[watto]

Reply: 2.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: .watto .


Sime,

I don't usually get involved in these arguments but you said.....

"And finally, I make no apologies for advertising like this. I do post a number of deals in Caveat Emptor and have established a strong network. My actions are not intended to insult the "forumites". Many people have contacted me for further information. This is a message board and I intend to post messages. If what I post doesn't suit you, don't reply - it's that simple really."

Your right it is a message board but SPAM is not an acceptable message in this particular forum SPAM belongs in the CAVEAT EMPTOR section.

This is a fantastic resource for everyone lets not ruin it for others with a few greedy posters who think they can post everywhere and anywhere.

You should really do the right thing and remove the post to the Caveat Emptor forum before you insult any more forumites……..


Cheers
watto
Melb Freestyler

 

[asy]

Reply: 2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Asy .


Simon,

Thanks for your reply )

May I humbly suggest that, if you are going to advertise your services to the masses, such as on this forum, you add to the page a simple line such as: "Of course, any Property Marketers would have to be licensed as per the Estate Agents Act." This may save confusion, as currently the document does not specify this. Sorry for my confusion, but it did sound like you wanted any bloke to come sell your properties ) You would be aware that there are maybe 5-10 licensed agents frequenting this site, out of the 2000 odd readers, really this is a small % of the readers, and maybe this should have been clarified.

Also, your original post states:
"We are not buyers agents or sellers agents. We just get hands on top quality investments and offer them at wholesale prices..."
Who, then, are you agents for?
You say you are licensed agents, (Which I knew before I replied to your post) but why say this. It is your MAIN SELLING FEATURE. It is put there why? To instill confidence, that you are not agents? Who are you acting for? Who is paying your commission?

And, lastly, I do not in any way challenge your right to post deals, I like it when people post their deals, it helps everyone on the forum, I was merely suggesting that they be posted in the appropriate forum, that being Cav Empt. Even expand your posts to include prices, specifics, anticipated rental incomes, etc. The more info the better )

Look forward to your reply.

asy )

"Don't forget what happened to the guy who suddenly got everything he ever wanted...
He lived happily ever after.
(Willy Wonka).

 

[Ross Sondergeld]

(Blah) BBBBBLLLLLAAAAAAHHHHHHHH....

Reply: 2.1.2
From: Ross Sondergeld


Hey Simon,



Buyer's Agents - Silent listings


Simon says, "For those of you that are interested in purchasing value for
money property in Melbourne, have a read of the attachment I have placed
here and feel free to email or call me on 0422 303 280."

Sounds like an advertorial of some kind....



Simon also says, "We are not buyers agents or sellers agents. We just get
hands on top quality investments and offer them at wholesale prices -
usually means way below bank val."


BBBBBBBBbbbbbblllllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh...

So if you're not a buyer agent or a seller agent then...

Hmmmm... then you must have bought them for yourself and now you're trying
to off-loan them in this forum. TRUE or FALSE ?


Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

Creative Real Estate Solutions Mobile 0412 289 464
Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast [email protected]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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[Ross Sondergeld]

Foot in mouth.... (Do seller/marketing agents have a clue?)

Reply: 2.1.1.1.1.1.2
From: Ross Sondergeld


Hi Simon,



Buyer's Agents - Silent listings


Simon says,"WPB is fully licensed and has all the requirements of the Estate
Agents Act in place. Thank you for your concern." Blah, blah, blah...


Sensational! Then you're a licensed real estate agent.... And i think you
should be saying I/we represent the seller. (i.e. seller agent!)

And I think you've just lied to everyone! (Don't you post previously... that
you weren't a seller agent or buyer agent?)



P.S. I think you really put your FOOT in it, Simon...





Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

Creative Real Estate Solutions Mobile 0412 289 464
Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast [email protected]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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