Buyers Agents - skeptical

Hi Everyone,
This is my first post as my wife and I are looking at investing in property but are not sure where, probably Brisbane or Adelaide. Given our lack of expereince we are looking at using a buyers agent to assist.
My question is, if a buyers agent is able to find the best deals on + cash flow investment properties, sub dividing, flips etc then why don't they establish a portfolio of properties themselves instead of running a business finding these same properties for others?
Am I being too skeptical?
 
Every BA I know personally has a well established portfolio for themselves. What makes you think they don't?

Having a decent portfolio isn't an instant path to a comfortable retirement, it's more a long term investment, not instant gratification. A BA might have one or two properties, they might have 50. That doesn't mean they're in a financial position to quit their day job, but given 10 years they will probably have this choice.

I've also found that owning a business is a much faster way to generating cashflow and potentially capital growth than property investment. It's also far more risky.

Most BAs will have some idea of the potential for the various strategies you've talked about and how they can be applied it their area of expertise.
 
....My question is, if a buyers agent is able to find the best deals on + cash flow investment properties, sub dividing, flips etc then why don't they establish a portfolio of properties themselves instead of running a business finding these same properties for others?

I can't speak for other BAs but in my own circumstance, you can only buy so many properties yourself before you either run out of serviceability to fund more loans or the lenders consider you to be too "rent reliant" and they won't lend any you anymore (for a while at least anyway).

Many BAs (including myself) turned their investing hobby into a full time career helping others. But your question is a valid one. Make sure your chosen BA has good references and their own property portfolio.
 
There could be several factors:

They make good/better/faster income on their business activities to warrant not purchase every deal they find.

They may not have been in business themselves for long and have lending issues such as verifiable income, credit file fried from other purchases, etc etc.

They may have a bad credit history, and just BA as a way of staying in the industry until they come good.

They might pick out a super good deal every so often and keep it for themselves.

BA aren't magicians. You have to do some legwork too. BA present the best/closest to your criteria available at the time. If there are no real bargains where you are looking to purchase, then they may give you some advice as to where is warming up. Get recommendations for who you might narrow down to for piece of mind. Word of mouth is their best advertising.


pinkboy
 
Thanks for your quick response, I appreciate your answers so far and I acknowledge that I am always initally skeptical, but conversly once I sign up with a professional I have faith that they will work in my best interest.
 
It's also fair to say that anyone who starts their own business is probably going to be unable to obtain finance for at least 2 years (at least on the basis of the business income).
 
Most BA's I'd safely assume have been investing for themselves personally for a while, and found enough satisfaction and enjoyment from finding deals that they wanted to pursue a career/business in the field. As they always say, do a job you enjoy and you'll never work a day in your life. :)
 
Make sure your chosen BA has good references and their own property portfolio.

References are easy to contrive. A property portfolio is an entirely different thing.

Ask for locations, prices paid and worth now. That should give you some indication of how good your BA is in sourcing property gems. I would not pay any attention whatsoever to references - for all you know it may be a friend or business partner.
 
References aren't worth the paper they are written on. When you get enough references together in one place the subject starts to look like a guru and some type of property hero. When you have been around for long enough you know that guru's and the like, end up tarnished.

Investing in property is about what you know and more importantly what you don't know. The role of the Buyer's Agent is to fill in what you don't know.

Most of what I have ended up learning about property investing has come from experience, I was learning the most when I was making a mistake.

My business partner Dave, had bought 8 units will he was still at uni and he was already at 14 properties before he started building a block of 74 units age 28.

We both had a very ad hoc approach to investing strategy and what types of property investments we were prepared to get involved in, houses units, commercial, industrial, etc.

Between Dave and I, we had renovated, built and sub-divided over 140 properties, on our own and in joint ventures. We made a load of mistakes, but boy we got smart.

My last purchase in 2006 before GFC was a $1.87M 6 bedroom house in Dover Heights looking straight at the Sydney Harbor Bridge. And boy did I get smart from that one. During GFC the cost of funding went through the roof.

Then GFC dried up funding for a few years and some property had to be sold along the way. More smartness.

5 years ago Dave and I talked about how we could do property in a new way, one with less risk. We wanted a way that took most of the speculation out of the investment equation. In the end we came up with the current model. It was all the things we knew that made investing in property less risky.

...now we only buy new stock, we don't renovate anymore or do sub-divisions. We buy, we hold. We don't like risk, I mean we really don't like risk.

We buy for capital growth first, yield second and for a long term hold. After a while our wise friends could see what we were doing and wanted in. We started buying for a few for friends and that grew into a few more and so on. Now we buy 8-12 properties per month.

We have a saying: we are smart because we learn from our mistakes, however our clients are WISE because they have learnt from ours.

We do everything that we can to reduce the risk in the transaction, as well as deducing the risk in the investment.

The one thing Dave & I have learnt over the last decade is that TIME is the most important ingredient in investing. A bad investment wastes your time, and thats time you can't get back.

What to ask your Buyer's Agent
What area do they recommend and why?,
What?s changed?
Why has it changed?
Is it a short term change or a long term change?
Is it near where the Buyer's Agent lives and if yes, why?
Where is the State in it's property cycle?
Where is the town or city in it's property cycle?
Where is the Suburb in it's property cycle?
Are the number of property sales in that suburb on an increasing trend?
and so on.

Do everything can to avoid buying a dud.
 
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Thanks for your quick response, I appreciate your answers so far and I acknowledge that I am always initally skeptical, but conversly once I sign up with a professional I have faith that they will work in my best interest.

Hi Ric and Ann

See the REBAA site for questions to ask potential BAs.
http://rebaa.com.au/how-do-i-choose-a-buyers-agent/

Also a wise idea to ensure that they're licensed - see here for NSW checks and simply type in both personal names and business names (here in NSW a buyers agency needs to have a licensee in charge with a licence and staff employees need to have a minimum Cert of Registration, though I would argue that any BA who is searching for you ideally should have a full RE licence and not just the LIC):

https://www.licence.nsw.gov.au/LicenceCheck/

As others have said, BAs run businesses to act on behalf of others and, just like selling agents, only have limited serviceability - we aren't banks after all :eek:

It's imperative that you also find the right BA for you- as you are placing them in a huge position of trust as your advocate. Ask around for recent experiences, speak to a few BAs, ensure they have the correct qualifications and can provide phone or written testimonials (sure these can be made up but honestly why would good agencies who've been around for a while bother?! :rolleyes:) and check out their reputation on sites like this, as well as organisations such as state REIs and REBAA. If you are after something specific find out if they specialise or indeed work in your areas of choice. Best of luck with it all.
 
References aren't worth the paper they are written on. When you get enough references together in one place the subject starts to look like a guru and some type of property hero. When you have been around for long enough you know that guru's and the like, end up tarnished.

Investing in property is about what you know and more importantly what you don't know. The role of the Buyer's Agent is to fill in what you don't know.

Most of what I have ended up learning about property investing has come from experience, I was learning the most when I was making a mistake.

My business partner Dave, had bought 8 units will he was still at uni and he was already at 14 properties before he started building a block of 74 units age 28.

We both had a very ad hoc approach to investing strategy and what types of property investments we were prepared to get involved in, houses units, commercial, industrial, etc.

Between Dave and I, we had renovated, built and sub-divided over 140 properties, on our own and in joint ventures. We made a load of mistakes, but boy we got smart.

My last purchase in 2006 before GFC was a $1.87M 6 bedroom house in Dover Heights looking straight at the Sydney Harbor Bridge. And boy did I get smart from that one. During GFC the cost of funding went through the roof.

Then GFC dried up funding for a few years and some property had to be sold along the way. More smartness.

5 years ago Dave and I talked about how we could do property in a new way, one with less risk. We wanted a way that took most of the speculation out of the investment equation. In the end we came up with the current model. It was all the things we knew that made investing in property less risky.

...now we only buy new stock, we don't renovate anymore or do sub-divisions. We buy, we hold. We don't like risk, I mean we really don't like risk.

We buy for capital growth first, yield second and for a long term hold. After a while our wise friends could see what we were doing and wanted in. We started buying for a few for friends and that grew into a few more and so on. Now we buy 8-12 properties per month.

We have a saying: we are smart because we learn from our mistakes, however our clients are WISE because they have learnt from ours.

We do everything that we can to reduce the risk in the transaction, as well as deducing the risk in the investment.

The one thing Dave & I have learnt over the last decade is that TIME is the most important ingredient in investing. A bad investment wastes your time, and thats time you can't get back.

What to ask your Buyer's Agent
What area do they recommend and why?,
What?s changed?
Why has it changed?
Is it a short term change or a long term change?
Is it near where the Buyer's Agent lives and if yes, why?
Where is the State in it's property cycle?
Where is the town or city in it's property cycle?
Where is the Suburb in it's property cycle?
Are the number of property sales in that suburb on an increasing trend?
and so on.

Do everything can to avoid buying a dud.

Hi Mark

Welcome to the forum- I must say I haven't seen your agency around and as I know most in NSW, it's nice to see someone new from the Bowral area- certainly a lovely part of our state :)

Just curious as to why you only seem to specialise in buying new property only for purchasers- in my experience, established property is just as viable (if not superior in many cases) and also should be considered by buyers building their portfolios. Do you only offer advice on buying new developments?
 
...now we only buy new stock, we don't renovate anymore or do sub-divisions. We buy, we hold. We don't like risk, I mean we really don't like risk.

We buy for capital growth first, yield second and for a long term hold.

The one thing Dave & I have learnt over the last decade is that TIME is the most important ingredient in investing. A bad investment wastes your time, and thats time you can't get back.

Do everything can to avoid buying a dud.

That is really good advice (except I don't understand why 'buy only new stock'. Do you mean something that is not a money pit?
 
Thanks for your quick response, I appreciate your answers so far and I acknowledge that I am always initally skeptical, but conversly once I sign up with a professional I have faith that they will work in my best interest.

Well in my experience, you need to be skeptical even after you've signed up. You can't assume that just because you paid, they would work in your best interest. There may be lots of great, genuine BAs. But there are lots of doggy ones too. I got burnt by a BA in Brizzy. The main reason we got BA was we couldn't do enough DD and thought a local pro might be able to provide it better. With the numbers, the rent was in a bit overly optimistic and the costs were underestimated, etc, just to make it look good. He was more of a transactional BA in hindsight. Our biggest mistake was putting faith in him and didn't bother getting second opinion or confirming ourselves. Honestly if we need to do that, what is the point of paying them? We learnt our lesson.
 
Well in my experience, you need to be skeptical even after you've signed up. You can't assume that just because you paid, they would work in your best interest. There may be lots of great, genuine BAs. But there are lots of doggy ones too. I got burnt by a BA in Brizzy. The main reason we got BA was we couldn't do enough DD and thought a local pro might be able to provide it better. With the numbers, the rent was in a bit overly optimistic and the costs were underestimated, etc, just to make it look good. He was more of a transactional BA in hindsight. Our biggest mistake was putting faith in him and didn't bother getting second opinion or confirming ourselves. Honestly if we need to do that, what is the point of paying them? We learnt our lesson.

Very sorry to hear about your experience Tyla. What do you mean by "transactional BA"? I haven't heard that phrase before.

It's a sad but true fact in life but we all need to keep our brains on even when engaging specialists to work with or for us. I trust my accountant and my mortgage broker but I also question them, ask for evidence sometimes when they claim things, and check there opinions by reading outside documents (and this forum) because I am the one ultimately responsible for my decisions.

I am a big fan of building a team of experts to build wealth but we do need to remain vigilant that we haven't chosen a dud team member, in any profession. All of my clients trust me, or they wouldn't have picked me, but at the same time I find a great deal of variation in how clients want to be communicated with along the way. Some just want the answer, others want all the details. I see it as vital to provide that info to help make sure clients make informed choices.

Any good BA will offer evidence based price and rental appraisals.

My estimates are always at the conservative end (as would be those by most of the reputable BA's on this forum) precisely because I don't want to make silly promises or have clients disappointed at the end. Good BA's work very very hard to ensure their clients finish happy but no BA is perfect, and no industry is without their problem children.

Asking good quality questions raises the quality of the responses you will get. And if you don't get quality responses then you know you are talking to someone who is not going to be on your team for long.
 
I recently used Sebastian James to bid and subsequently negotiate on our new PPOR. The problem was I was fully emotionally invested in this property, the agents knew that. I had actually made a pre auction offer on the place. A week out, I thought geez I don't want to have to negotiate on this if the auction breaks down as I will likely pay over the odds just to get this place.

So come auction day Sebastian took care of the bidding, and subsequent negotiation which dragged on for about 20 mins while we were lurking down the road..we could actually see the selling agents coming out of the auction rooms looking for us to bring is in lol. Well the result was property was picked up 5k less than my pre auction offer.

So while I can't speak to the complete service offering, the bid/negotiate service that Sebastian offered was first class...best money I have ever spent.
 
Here?s my view on BAs: I don?t doubt that there are many good BAs around that can find you good deals. If I used one, they would probably get me a better property than I can find myself or get the same one for a better price.
Now while this does sound very positive, there are a few reasons why I don?t use a BA. First, I?m a big believer in doing your own research and becoming somewhat of an area expert before buying. Using a BA would make it too easy to become lazy and complacent and not bother to do what I see as sufficient research.
The second reason I don?t use BAs should be pretty obvious: It?s all about the money. While they would probably get me a better deal, possibly so much so that the total purchase price including everything (even the BA?s fee) would be less, the money coming out of my own pocket would certainly be more. This means that I would not be able to buy properties at the same rate that I?m doing and would be counterproductive to my strategy.

People that want to buy one or two investment properties should consider using a BA, but people that want to buy 20 IPs in ten years might want to rethink it.

Those are my believes, if you think that they?re wrong, please feel free to challenge me on them!
 
I recently used Sebastian James to bid and subsequently negotiate on our new PPOR. The problem was I was fully emotionally invested in this property, the agents knew that. I had actually made a pre auction offer on the place. A week out, I thought geez I don't want to have to negotiate on this if the auction breaks down as I will likely pay over the odds just to get this place.

So come auction day Sebastian took care of the bidding, and subsequent negotiation which dragged on for about 20 mins while we were lurking down the road..we could actually see the selling agents coming out of the auction rooms looking for us to bring is in lol. Well the result was property was picked up 5k less than my pre auction offer.

So while I can't speak to the complete service offering, the bid/negotiate service that Sebastian offered was first class...best money I have ever spent.

Good strategy. May have cost a bit more than if the pre auction offer was accepted (which it wasn't) but capped the possibility of a runaway post auction negotiated price.
 
Guru who specializes in only new property, um, what's the commission like? or should I ask 'Dave'?

We negotiate an after settlement rebate from the vendor of 6%, which is rebated to the buyer.
We charge a flat 4%
Leaving the property buyer with a NET 2%
 
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