Buyers Agents

Discussion in 'WebBoard Property Investor Forum Archive' started by The_Husband, 9th Sep, 2002.

  1. The_Husband

    The_Husband Member

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    From: The Husband


    With all the recent discussion on this topic I was wondering what qualifications I would need in NSW to act as a buyers agent. Nothing big, I just want to find properties for family/friends and charge a fee.

    Would the Real Estate sales licence do? or would I need the full Real Estate Licence? And what else would I need?

    Thanks guys (don't worry I will pose no competitive threat)


    TH
     
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  2. asy

    asy Member

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    From: Asy .


    Hi TH!

    You would need a full license, or to be acting under a full license, as a sales rep (certified real estate sales rep).

    Anyone who "benefits from a property transaction" ie: is paid (whether that be money or goods) from dealing with a property transaction, whether that be introducing a purchaser, or finding a property for sale, or even just finding a property and telling someone else about it. If you gain from the transaction you must be licensed.

    That's my understanding of the legislation anyway, I am licensed in Victoria (Where I trained) and Queensland, but am eligible for licensing in NSW. However, I am happy to be proven incorrect. :eek:)

    Let us know what you find out :eek:)

    asy

    "Don't forget what happened to the guy who suddenly got everything he ever wanted...
    He lived happily ever after.
    (Willy Wonka).
     
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  3. Arkay

    Arkay Member

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    Reply: 1.1
    From: Rick Kirk


    Sorry but that doesn't entirely make sense to me. Are you saying that anyone who flips a property for profit is by law required to have an RE license?

    That's not my understanding. As far as I was aware you can find property anywhere and sell it to someone else for a higher price to make profit and you can do this as an individual.

    If you are saying they cannot pay you to find property for them then maybe so, but in reality if person A buys a house from me for $10000 more than I bought it for, who is going to care? Governments get their stamp duty and everything is peachy.

    To my knowledge there isn't any legislation (that's enforced anyway), with regard to this type of this as apposed to say motor car trading where I believe you need LMCT to do more than 2 a year in your name...

    Someone please clarify.

    Cheers,
    Rick.
     
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  4. Kristine..

    Kristine.. Broker and Raconteur

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    Reply: 1.1.1
    From: Kristine .


    Rick

    The original question was ..."With all the recent discussion on this topic I was wondering what qualifications I would need in NSW to act as a buyers agent. Nothing big, I just want to find properties for family/friends and charge a fee"... and it's the 'charge a fee' bit that requires a licence.

    The individual may be a salesperson, acting under an Agent's licence, which is usually the case with selling agents ie an Agent employs salespeople in their business to act on their behalf.

    ..."Would the Real Estate sales licence do? or would I need the full Real Estate Licence? "...

    Your query ..."Are you saying that anyone who flips a property for profit is by law required to have an RE license?... crosses over into the trading area. If you buy, settle on the property, pay stamp duty etc and sell, no matter how short the time frame, then that is between you and the tax office. But to act as an agent requires licensing.

    An architect once advised me "Never do business with anyone you wouldn't sue". I have thought on this often, and a main part of the purpose of licensing and registration requirements is to establish clear lines of responsibility and accountability. So if you wouldn't sue your best friend's mate if it all went pear shaped, don't do business with them in the first place. Engage a licensed Agent who is then legally and morally bound to put your interests first. After all, it's your money, Ralph!

    cheers

    Kristine
     
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  5. Splinter Wood

    Splinter Wood Member

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    Reply: 1.1.2
    From: Splinter Wood


    Rick,

    I Think the implication is -if you are a 3rd party or intermediary, then you need a licence etc NOT if you buy and sell i.e 1st and 2nd Party.

    SW
     
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  6. asy

    asy Member

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    Reply: 1.1.2.1
    From: Asy .



    Splinter and Kristine have it right,

    Rick, I never said it made sense, or that I agreed with it, I was just telling you what the legislation said. :eek:)

    And yes, technically, you need a license to deal (profit in ANY way) from a property transaction, unless the property is your own, or you have a registerable interest in the property. That's where it is OK to ONSELL. You said:

    "Are you saying that anyone who flips a property for profit is by law required to have an RE license?"

    then you clarified:

    "That's not my understanding. As far as I was aware you can find property anywhere and sell it to someone else for a higher price to make profit and you can do this as an individual"

    However, what you are describing (as far as I can see) is an onsell, where you have contracted for the purchase of the property and then passed your registerable interest in the property to another person. This IS LEGAL. (Don't lets get into the tax implications here, that's not my field!!)

    A flip is where you find a property, negotiate a price and get someone else to sign the contracts, then take a fee. THIS REQUIRES A LICENSE.

    You also said:

    "if person A buys a house from me for $10000 more than I bought it for, who is going to care? Governments get their stamp duty and everything is peachy."

    Yep, this is an onsell, since you had a registerable interest in the property... this is definately peachy!! :eek:) (VERY peachy, last time I did it I made 25k)

    I hope this has clarified the issue a little, and I hope I have not clouded it further!!

    Please let me know if this explanation helps. :eek:D

    asy.


    "Don't forget what happened to the guy who suddenly got everything he ever wanted...
    He lived happily ever after.
    (Willy Wonka).
     
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  7. asy

    asy Member

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    Reply: 1.1.2.1.1
    From: Asy .


    Oops,

    Please remember that by doing an onsell, that is contracting to purchase a property hoping to get someone else to take the contract over prior to settlement is RISKY!!

    You MUST be prepared to settle on the property!!!!!!!!!

    If it is not a property that you would be able to afford, settle on or want, don't do it!

    Even if the proposed end purchaser promises to buy it, they may not... as Kristine said... the Pear shaped thing! hehe

    asy. :eek:)

    "Don't forget what happened to the guy who suddenly got everything he ever wanted...
    He lived happily ever after.
    (Willy Wonka).
     
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  8. WebBoard

    WebBoard Guest

    Reply: 1.1.3
    From: Brett Burt


    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    when you 'flip' it, you do so as a type of 'owner' flogging your own =property. If it was someone else's you flipped and you got a benefit, =you would need a real estate licence.

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    when you 'flip' it, you do so as a type of 'owner' =flogging
    your own property. If it wassomeone else's you flipped and you got =a
    benefit, youwould need a real estate licence.


    ------=_NextPart_000_0055_01C258BC.98B219E0--
     
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  9. Ross Sondergeld

    Ross Sondergeld Member

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    I want to be a Buyer Agent in NSW or other...

    Reply: 1.2
    From: Ross Sondergeld


    Hi Asy,


    I want to be a Buyer Agent in NSW or other...

    You said, "You would need a full license, or to be acting under a full
    license, as a sales rep (certified real estate sales rep). Anyone who
    "benefits from a property transaction" ie: is paid (whether that be
    money or goods) from dealing with a property transaction, whether that be
    introducing a purchaser, or finding a property for sale, or even just
    finding a property and telling someone else about it. If you gain from the
    transaction you must be licensed."


    Correct... (Well correct for 99% of deals and situations. But the legal "go
    ga" can get very complex.)


    Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    " Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
    ...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

    Creative Real Estate Solutions Mobile 0412 289 464
    Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
    East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
    Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast Buyerside@hotmail.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    _________________________________________________________________
    Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
     
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  10. Ross Sondergeld

    Ross Sondergeld Member

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    Are we about to hit the FLIP topic again...

    Reply: 1.1.4
    From: Ross Sondergeld


    Hi Richard,


    Are we about to hit the FLIP topic again...


    You siad, "Are you saying that anyone who flips a property for profit is by
    law required to have an RE license?"


    Ahhhhhh... I LOVE the FLIP thread. It always gets me excited....


    3 types of flippers

    Scout (i.e. Finder
    Dealer (i.e. transfer guy)
    Retailer (i.e. on-seller)


    Only the on-seller is NOT required to have a r/e license. For example, buy
    in name/company/trust and on-sell via a Contract of Sale.


    I await rookie flippers to challenge me... ;)



    Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    " Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
    ...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

    Creative Real Estate Solutions Mobile 0412 289 464
    Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
    East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
    Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast Buyerside@hotmail.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    _________________________________________________________________
    Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
    http://www.hotmail.com
     
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  11. Mike

    Mike Member

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    I want to be a Buyer Agent in NSW or other...

    Reply: 1.2.1
    From: Mike .


    Hi Ross,

    "I await rookie flippers to challenge me... ;)"

    Okay, at my peril, I will lock horns with you :)

    In the book, "Flipping Properties" by William Bronchick (a lawyer himself - see www.legalwiz.com), on page 2, he says: "The flipper does not need a license to practice, nor is he under the watchful eye of a government agency."

    Unfortunately, he doesn't say why. Bear in mind he is referring to the American system.

    3 types of flippers

    Scout (i.e. Finder
    Dealer (i.e. transfer guy)
    Retailer (i.e. on-seller)

    He does give a clue, however, when he says a Scout is simply selling information. However, he ignores the fact that it relates to a property transaction.

    The Dealer, he says, is selling a commodity rather than property. The dealer takes control of a property but assigns it to a Retailer so has not on-sold the property.

    Just one point with regard to Dealers, if the property is secured with a Purchase Option and the Option itself is sold for a fee, correct me if I am wrong, but you wouldn't need a license to sell options.

    Regards, Mike
     
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  12. asy

    asy Member

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    I want to be a Buyer Agent in NSW or other...

    Reply: 1.2.1.1
    From: Asy .


    Mike,

    You have answered your own question, I believe, and confirmed that your horn-locking was ill fated from the outset:

    In the book, "Flipping Properties" by William Bronchick (a lawyer himself - see www.legalwiz.com), on page 2, he says: "The flipper does not need a license to practice, nor is he under the watchful eye of a government agency." Unfortunately, he doesn't say why. Bear in mind he is referring to the American system.

    Aaah, the last two words there nullify the argument :eek:) ... the AMERICAN SYSTEM!!!

    I believe the original question referred to NSW (which I hope has not moved!).

    Yeah, Ross, I usually steer clear of flipping questions too because of the plethora of inaccurate information, but on this occasion I couldn't resist.. (sorry to all those I have bored so far...)

    I hope all the would-be flippers out there seek advice, proper, legal type advice, prior to embarking on any activity which they are not ABSOLUTELY sure falls within their capacity, and check whether they require licensing. I know this seems obvious, but I thought I'd throw it in. (I.E.: don't rely on MY or ROSS'S advice, go check it!!)

    And to end: Mike, your question at the end of your post asks:

    Just one point with regard to Dealers, if the property is secured with a Purchase Option and the Option itself is sold for a fee, correct me if I am wrong, but you wouldn't need a license to sell options.

    This is not a question regarding dealers, once YOU secure the property with a purchase option you have a REGISTERABLE INTEREST in the property, and that makes you an ON-SELLER!!! thus you are correct, in that you do not need a license.

    Sorry to use this as an example, but this is exactly the reason why good legal advice in required in these types of situations, it is so easy to blur the line.

    Sorry guys, I hope this has not blurred the line further!! :eek:D

    asy.


    "Don't forget what happened to the guy who suddenly got everything he ever wanted...
    He lived happily ever after.
    (Willy Wonka).
     
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  13. The_Husband

    The_Husband Member

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    I want to be a Buyer Agent in NSW or other...

    Reply: 1.2.1.1.1
    From: The Husband


    Thanks everyone for your answers.

    Now one more question relating to wraps. What if I was finding properties for my joint venture clients and arranging these to be wrapped?

    Eg Mr X wants to wrap. I find the property and the wrapee, X buys the house, gets the loan, onsells it on an installment contract to Ms Z and gives me a fee for arranging all of this?

    Thanks again.

    TH
     
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  14. asy

    asy Member

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    I want to be a Buyer Agent in NSW or other...

    Reply: 1.2.1.1.1.1
    From: Asy .


    Hi TH!

    OK, to answer your question, you need to ask yourself:

    "Do I at any stage have a registerable interest in the property?"

    That means, is there any time during the transaction where you could legally have the property registered as yours, i.e: are you contracted to buy it, or do you own an option to buy the property, or do you own the property?

    Your sample situation:

    "Mr X wants to wrap. I find the property and the wrapee, X buys the house, gets the loan, onsells it on an installment contract to Ms Z and gives me a fee for arranging all of this?"

    looks on the outset like you are to have no registerable interest in the property, and you will be getting a fee, thus you WILL NEED A LICENSE.

    However: you also state "What if I was finding properties for my joint venture clients and arranging these to be wrapped".

    If this is to be a JV, and you will be a party to the purchase then you are OK, and will not require licensing.

    Remember to ask yourself the question stated at the beginning of this post, if you do that each time, you should be OK.

    (Time for usual disclaimer, go seek legal advice!! hehe)

    Hope this helps.

    asy


    "Don't forget what happened to the guy who suddenly got everything he ever wanted...
    He lived happily ever after.
    (Willy Wonka).
     
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  15. Mike

    Mike Member

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    Reply: 1.2.1.1.1.1.1
    From: Mike .


    Hi Asy,

    Since this is a discussion forum I'd like to put forward my own reason why I think a Scout who takes a finders fee shouldn't need to be licensed.

    They are not acting on behalf of a Seller to get highest sale price, nor are they acting on behalf of the Buyer to get lowest sale price. In fact, they are not acting as anybody's representative in a negotiation with another party.

    Nor do they necessarily advise a potential buyer. If I find a property which appears to be listed under market value and bring this to the attention of a potential buyer and I say to that person, "If after your own due diligence you negotiate with the vendor and purchase the property at a discounted price and are thankful to me for alerting you to this potentially profitable deal then I would ask that you tip me in recognition of my service as you would a taxi driver, waiter, or doorman or anybody else providing a personal service. Naturally, the size of the tip should reflect the size of the profit."

    Since the relevant legislation [Auctioneers and Agents Act 1971, Auctioneers & Agents Regulation 1986, The Mutual Recognition (Queensland) Act 1992] is designed to protect consumers, clearly the Scout is not a danger to consumers for finding a potential Flip property which, in his opinion, may provide a profitable deal to the buyer. A fee or tip received by a Scout from a buyer is simply recognition that the buyer agrees enough with the Scout's perception to conclude the purchase.

    In this respect, Scouts actually have less influence on a purchaser's decision than a salesperson who can negotiate on behalf of the seller or buyer and can do so with a limited license, as many do.

    Regards, Mike
     
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  16. asy

    asy Member

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    Reply: 1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1
    From: Asy .


    Hi Mike,

    I agree with you in the main. Ostensibly I agree that if you simply introduce the parties and do not influence the decision making process you should be allowed to do so without the hassle of being licensed.

    However I did not write the legislation :eek:(

    (Maybe they will let me write the next one! -I wish!!)

    The problem comes, however when you, as an "introducer" (for want of a better word) go to your client and say, "I have sussed these houses out and have found them to be a good deal, here, you take the details and have a look at them. See what you think. Do your own due diligence, and don't let me influence your decision."

    This is fraught with problems, simply the fact that you have picked this house, or these couple of houses out from the frey implies that you have found them to be a 'good deal' and is an inferred recommendation, however neatly you word your disclaimer.

    The other problem comes with the pseudo BA (pBA) not wanting to let the client do too much of their own investigating because the pBA has not secured the property nor the purchaser with any sort of contract, thus if the pBA gives the purchaser all the details of the property and the purchaser goes and buys it directly from the vendor, the pBA has no comeback and cannot extract their fee (and YES I have seen this happen).

    I know it is annoying not being able to do what seems to be a simple transaction, but I can see both sides of the fence, you may have all good intentions, and at the end of the day it all goes awry, are you covered by professional indemnity insurance? Are you prepared to defend a case where things have gone wrong, and on top of the fact that your purchaser is suing for losses, you have the Business licensing authority (or it's equivalent) coming down on you as well??

    May I humbly make a suggestion which may help you to find a happy middle ground?

    Investigate the possibility of gaining your agents reps certificate (or salesperson's certificate, depending on state) and approach a Licensed estate agent with whom you feel comfortable. Make a deal with them. You get to do your flips, legally, and they get a small cut of your income. This makes you legal, and may also give you the added opportunity to use their knowledge, contacts, trust account, and professional indemnity insurance, for a % of your fee.

    What do you think?

    asy

    "Don't forget what happened to the guy who suddenly got everything he ever wanted...
    He lived happily ever after.
    (Willy Wonka).
     
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  17. The_Husband

    The_Husband Member

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    I want to be a Buyer Agent in NSW or other...

    Reply: 1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
    From: The Husband


    Thanks again Asy.

    With the usual jv situation regardig wraps, most of the people seeking partners that I have spoken to require their jv partners to put up the money for deposit and buy the house in their name only (but they get to keep 50% of profits!!!). But none that I have spoken to are licenced. I think from your explanation that they should be.

    Thanks

    TH
     
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  18. Ross Sondergeld

    Ross Sondergeld Member

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    I want to be a Buyer Agent in NSW or other...

    Reply: 1.2.1.2
    From: Ross Sondergeld


    Hi Mike,


    I want to be a Buyer Agent in NSW or other...


    I said, "I await rookie flippers to challenge me... ;)"

    I'm basically just playing around... don't take me too seriously. I'm a laid
    back almost falling over type of guy... ;)


    You said, " In the book, "Flipping Properties" by William Bronchick (a
    lawyer himself - see www.legalwiz.com), on page 2, he says: "The flipper
    does not need a license to practice, nor is he under the watchful eye of a
    government agency." Unfortunately, he doesn't say why. Bear in mind he is
    referring to the American system. "


    Yeh... yeh... i've got the book. But you gotta remember... that the US has
    50 (?) states and every different state of the US has different rules for
    everything in a real estate deal.


    In Oz... you need a real estate license. FULL STOP!

    I still remember... a thread from about a year ago when a well known forum
    person... said they did it... and tried to say it was legal. But hey... now
    it's one of the methods that exists but it's not really allowed to be talked
    about in public.... (therefore I'll SHUT my month for today.)


    But it always amazes me how the real estate guru guys keep pushing the
    "flipping" techniques. When in reality... the only legal method for Joe
    Average... is the on-sell flipping method.



    P.S. I say a pray for everyone in the US on 9/11. It was terrible... and i
    hope to meet everyone in heaven... "God bless you". Peace!




    Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    " Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
    ...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

    Creative Real Estate Solutions Mobile 0412 289 464
    Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
    East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
    Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast Buyerside@hotmail.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    _________________________________________________________________
    Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
    http://www.hotmail.com
     
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  19. Ross Sondergeld

    Ross Sondergeld Member

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    I want to be a Buyer Agent in NSW (wrapping)...

    Reply: 1.2.1.1.1.2
    From: Ross Sondergeld


    Hi The Husband,


    (Are you related to The Wife... ;)



    Subject: I want to be a Buyer Agent in NSW or other...

    You said, "Now one more question relating to wraps. What if I was finding
    properties for my joint venture clients and arranging these to be wrapped?
    Eg Mr X wants to wrap. I find the property and the wrapee, X buys the house,
    gets the loan, onsells it on an installment contract to Ms Z and gives me a
    fee for arranging all of this?"


    Find? Then you need a r/e license.

    Finance? No real estate license. Simple.



    Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    " Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
    ...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

    Creative Real Estate Solutions Mobile 0412 289 464
    Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
    East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
    Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast Buyerside@hotmail.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    _________________________________________________________________
    Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
     
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  20. Ross Sondergeld

    Ross Sondergeld Member

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    I want to be a Buyer Agent (flipping as a finder)...

    Reply: 1.2.1.1.1.1.1.2
    From: Ross Sondergeld


    Hi Mike,


    I want to be a Buyer Agent (flipping as a finder)...


    Mike said, "Since this is a discussion forum I'd like to put forward my own
    reason why I think a Scout who takes a finders fee shouldn't need to be
    licensed."


    Firstly, I'd love to operate without a r/e license. It would cut my costs...
    and be riskier for the people I deal with daily... ;)

    But yes... a finder could be classed as a non-agent... but I'd bet the
    "ranch" that person will NOT behave like a non-agent.


    Mike also said, "They are not acting on behalf of a Seller to get highest
    sale price, nor are they acting on behalf of the Buyer to get lowest sale
    price. In fact, they are not acting as anybody's representative in a
    negotiation with another party."

    True. But I'm 100% sure that at some time... the non-agent will comment on
    value... or make a suggestion regarding the deal. Thereby creating an agency
    relationship (...legally speaking).



    Mike also said, "If I find a property which appears to be listed under
    market value and bring this to the attention of a potential buyer..."

    I think you've suggested and/or advised about market value. Under market
    value... attention of buyer... profitable deal? Therefore... you're acting
    for somebody... (the buyer's benefit?)


    Flipping is very complex and simple... In reality... anyone can help someone
    in a real estate deal. It happens all the time... mum kicks in a few
    comments... your accountant said this... your brother negotiates the deal...
    my seminar guru says this... etc.

    What happens and what is legal all depends on what the judge says when...
    the Sh!t hits the fan.



    P.S. We've also got to remember... that this is a public forum and the
    professional flippers are NEVER going to let their secrets hit the open
    market. The 3 flipping methods can be done many different ways... Some are
    legal... some are HUGE deals... some are for a few hundred bucks...

    P.P.S. Either way licensed and un-licensed... real estate people will always
    be somewhere in the deal... when there is $$$$$ to be made...



    But at the end of the day... I believe in 100% representation! Represent the
    seller, the buyer or yourself. But make sure everyone knows who you really
    represent! (* I think one of my friends calls it transparency.)



    Ross Sondergeld ~ Buyer Agent

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    " Imagine buying real estate the easy way...
    ...with a Buyer Agent on your side!!! "

    Creative Real Estate Solutions Mobile 0412 289 464
    Office 9b, 34 Glenferrie Drive Office (07) 5562 1555
    East Quay Corporate Park Fax (07) 5562 1248
    Robina QLD 4226, Gold Coast Buyerside@hotmail.com
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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    Last edited by a moderator: 5th Apr, 2017