Cashflow Solution

cash flow

Robyne

I have to agree with u,,, not against,,

I can't ever remember buying a cash flow + Property?
But I have nothing against the idea either.
.
The property I look for is only high cg. But if it had High cg & + cash flow I obviously wouldn't let it slip by...If the was nothing else around .. of course. But Most of the time the two don't mix in very high Cap Growth areas (that I have found anyway).


cheers ocean view
 
Hi all,

Robyne,

What you say about many +ve cashflow properties may be true, also high growth/ very neg gear may not be for you either, but there is always the middle ground.
The protective buy/write strategy is not always the best option :D

Take the following example

NCP trading at $11.50 buy 2000 shares + brokerage
buy 12 month away put + brokerage
sell 2 month call (at $11.50 strike price) + brokerage

or you could do the following,

buy 12 month away put + brokerage
sell 2 month away put (at $11.50 strike price) + brokerage
The risk profile is the same, but you can have higher leverage, as the margin requirements are not the same as for a naked sale(of a put), your capital is not tied up, and there is one less transaction for brokerage that eats into your profit.
My best suggestion is for you to read more from options experts(Eng +Mcmillan) that I suggested in an earlier post.

happy trading

bye
 
Robyne,

I don't think pos cashflow is the way to build wealth, but I aim to have a couple in the mix so that they contribute to servicing the cost of the neg properties, and give a greater yield come retirement time.

If you only go for high growth properties, your wealth will grow quicker (as long as your income can service them) but I still can't see any effective way to draw an income off them when you give up work.

Gail
 
Hi Gail,

Peter Spann's way of getting income out of the equity in properties is to borrow against it and do the protected buy/write strategy as stated earlier. This strategy gets you income from your wealth, your properties are for wealth. Although it is relatively low risk strategy it is certainly not without risk and I don't know if I feel confident putting large amounts of borrowed funds into it, let alone as Peter suggests borrowing against the equity in your IPs and then getting a margin loan on that!!! :eek:

To be fair he does say this substantially increases your risk.

And I am a Spann Fan

Robyne
 
Originally posted by Robyne
Peter Spann's way of getting income out of the equity in properties is to borrow against it and do the protected buy/write strategy as stated earlier. This strategy gets you income from your wealth, your properties are for wealth. Although it is relatively low risk strategy it is certainly not without risk and I don't know if I feel confident putting large amounts of borrowed funds into it, let alone as Peter suggests borrowing against the equity in your IPs and then getting a margin loan on that!!! :eek:

To be fair he does say this substantially increases your risk.

And I am a Spann Fan
Robyne,

You've done OK using the protected buy write strategy.

You have mentioned the margin loan. That's now something he only suggests once you have a lot of experience. Is this something you've done?

I'm looking at starting just using my self managed super fund- so no borrowings at all.

Bill, your suggestions look interesting. I have a lot of learning to do!
 
No Geoff, I have not tried the margin loan thing. I am quite risk averse and my husband is worse than me. We have plenty of equity to borrow if we want to invest more but at the moment we are just dabbling ie just enough money to keep our attention on the strategy or as Peter calls it the stra-egy.


Bill, your strategy does sound interesting. To be honest I had to think it over for quite a while before I understood what you were saying. I find options a bit like that. You are certainly tying up a lot less cash in this method. I understood that novices like myself are not able to trade naked options.

Robyne
 
Hi all,

Robyne and Geoff, because you are just starting /dabbling is why I suggested the books in an earlier post. You can read of a lot of different strategies, follow how they work with particular examples in our market(paper trade), and see for yourself how the strategies work. Remember that the person on the otherside of your options position is probably a professional with a lot more experience.
Also when testing what strategy to use, make sure that you use the bid price when you are selling and the ask price when you are buying, as this is what happens in real trading most of the time. This bid/ask spread on many thinly traded options is what can bring a theoretically good strategy into a negative position.

bye
 
Dear Bill,

"My best suggestion is for you to read more from options experts(Eng +Mcmillan) that I suggested in an earlier post."

Thank you for your thoughts. I am looking forward to reading the book(s) you suggest but I cannot find your ealier post with these details.

Robyne
 
Hi Robyne,

Post 12 this thread.

Also just to answer your Q about selling naked, If you had bought the future put first, the sell the nearby put, it is a spread and you are not selling naked.

And before anyone comments, no you don't need a warm climate to sell naked:D :D

bye
 
Originally posted by Bill.L
And before anyone comments, no you don't need a warm climate to sell naked:D :D

But if you are to sell naked. . . wouldn't your position leave you rather exposed?

Sorry couldn't resist,

Steve :D
 
Originally posted by Steve Navra
But if you are to sell naked. . . wouldn't your position leave you rather exposed?
I guess you'd want to close your position before it bottoms out.

Originally posted by Robyne
Thank you for your thoughts. I am looking forward to reading the book(s) you suggest but I cannot find your ealier post with these details.

Robyne, they were mentioned In this post:
Options as a strategic investment. by Lawrence G. Mcmillan. NYFI(New York Institute of Finance).ISBN 0-13-636002-5
Options- Trading Strategies that Work. by William F. Eng. Wrightbooks ISBN 1-875857-93-1
 
Got the refs, thankyou guys.

Have just quit work because looking after 2 small children working and studying for a law degree was becoming a bit much for me (and the kids kept getting sick). The extra income (cashflow) will be missed and I am hoping I may be able to do some trading to offset that a bit.

Hmmm. Might work.

Robyne
 
Hi Robyne,

I've got four kids, two at school, two at home, and I trade as well as renovate houses. I love trading. It does work and it's a good thing for a mum at home with kids. Just make sure you get good training and watch out for the little voices in your head - they will be the end of you!!

"it'll come back, if I just hold on to it a bit longer....."

Regards,

Kylie
 
Protected Buy Write

Hi Robyne,

You are exactly right with respect to being exercised and having to buy back at a higher price. Therefore your new injection is unprotected. Another way out is to act on the last day of expiry, i.e roll up or up and out. If you buy back your written call the day of expiry, the time value is very small, then write a new call for the next month. This will probalbly cost you money, as your original written call is in the money, therefore it has some intrinsic value. But this way you avoid being exercised, and in the long run isn't so bad. Also, if your clued in on charting analyis, you time your entry when writing your call. This way you can write your call when you think the share price is peaking, increasing your chance of not being exercised. This analysis is a combination of short term trading analysis using RSI, stockastic, Bollinger bands, moving averages and all the other tools you would previously use. If you are interested, the person who taught me these strategies (After I attended Spann's Instant Income) is a contact who does a three day trading course, which in my opinion is far more informative than Spann. The price is about $1000 for the three days.

Bill,
What your refering to is a horizontal canlander spread, which has exactly the same risk profile as the protected buy write, but you don't hold the share. (This I agree). This I have looked into breifly, but found that the long dated Put is illiquid, and if you need to trade out, you are often selling to a market maker, and they are tough buyers. The info I have previously read is based on the US market, which is far more liquid than ours and has alot more trading opportunities with this kind of strategy. Have you had success using the calander spread in the Aussie market?

Tony
 
Hi tony,

When I was refering to the spread strategy, it was in response to the PROTECTED buy /write. In which you would have exactly the same difficulties that you mentioned.
No I don't trade that way. As I indicated earlier the bid/ask spread makes most of these types of strategies questionable in the Aus market. I also find that when you start to use technical analysis to help with your timing, it is a better strategy to just purchase a put or call according to your direction. If you read through Mcmillan(Options as a Strategic Investment), he explains mathematically why the straight put or call purchase can be the best method.

happy trading

bye
 
Bill,

I did have trouble finding those books around Canberra (probably not surprising).

The Eng book is available from the BusinessMall site from API magazine, but I haven't seen the McMillan book yet.

Is it worth getting online, or might ir=t be available fron Sydney easily (I'll be there in e few weeks)?
 
Hi Geoff

I can't remember exactly where I purchased mine, but I just did a quick search on Dymocks web page and they seem to have it at $139.95. That price is about right as it is a large book and regarded as the bible on options trading by professional traders around the world.

bye
 
Hi Peacock,

Thanks for your info. I would like to know which seminar on trading you consider to be the most useful although at the moment as cashflow is the issue (there isn't much) it may be a while before I can go to it. Have you done Peter Spann's super trader? If so, what did you think of that one?

Robyne
 
Robyne,

Don't forget that as a Spann graduate (I assume you are) that you can do the super trader for $980 for the three day course (early bird for Sydney if you enrol this week).

It may be possible for a elf managed supr fund to pay for a course- see post elsewhere.
 
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