CAUTION Dual Living/ Duplex / Granny Flat Brisbane City Council Action Against Owners

[thatbum]

The OA has asked the court for a declaration that the use is a multi-unit dwelling and not a house.

We will again be representing a large number of property owners in this matter and, unfortunately for them, I would be surprised if we get a result this calendar year.

Well that means there's nothing nothing them from doing as they like in the meantime?

 

[H Property]

When did they lodge this? I can't find it online on the eCourts site so it must be pretty recent.

I'm very interested to see what they are asking to be clarified and why they would go to all the expense of the P & E Court Originating Application for a plan that has now been superseded.

 

[beachgurl]

I've read this thread a couple of times and it still sounds like a different language to me.

I will have a house constructed in 6 months or so in BCC area. I was considering putting a firewall in to make it a dual occ property when (if) approvals come through.

Does the new city plan allow this or is it strictly against it?

 

[RPI]

When did they lodge this? I can't find it online on the eCourts site so it must be pretty recent.

I'm very interested to see what they are asking to be clarified and why they would go to all the expense of the P & E Court Originating Application for a plan that has now been superseded.

Filed on Friday & served on me today.

Use the builder's last name and you will find it, I just looked and it is there.

 

[RPI]

I've read this thread a couple of times and it still sounds like a different language to me.

I will have a house constructed in 6 months or so in BCC area. I was considering putting a firewall in to make it a dual occ property when (if) approvals come through.

Does the new city plan allow this or is it strictly against it?

It is Rooming accommodation code that you are looking for, dual occupancy not allowed in low density areas (unless you have 3000m2).

 

[H Property]

The OA has asked the court for a declaration that the use is a multi-unit dwelling and not a house.

We will again be representing a large number of property owners in this matter and, unfortunately for them, I would be surprised if we get a result this calendar year.

You probably have similar stuff, but I have a legal document from Brisbane City Council where they have stated that a house and granny flat, rented separately, is not a multi unit dwelling. If you're hitting the courts again on this issue then let me know if it's of any interest to you.

When did they lodge the Originating Application? I can't find it on the eCourts site so I'm guessing it's very recent? Very interested to read the finer details of the court lodged documents.

What would they possibly hope to achieve by going to the P & E court? The plan has just been superseded and the new City Plan supports multiple households in a house anyway. Wouldn't any sort of judgement be irrelevant?

 

[RPI]

It was lodged on 18 July. It is the top of the list.

There are approx 500 pages of supporting documents.

As they have lodged it in the Planning and Environment Court the documents are available online and in full

 

[H Property]

Thanks. Found the court documents now. Just looks like 2 very lengthy affidavits.

Is there something that outlines what BCC are asking of the court?

 

[RPI]

I was served with the OA. It is only a couple of pages but I can see it is not up on the site, it should be. Unfortunately can't share it.

They are asking for

1. A declaration that the use is not a house;
2. A declaration that the use is a multi-unit dwelling;
3. Costs.

Maybe wait a day or 2 and see if it is up there.

 

[H Property]

Standby people. Brisbane City Council are about to try and convince a court that granny is unlawful in a granny flat

Can't wait to see how this one unfolds.

 

[Tim86]

http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/site...ming_accommodation_in_existing_dwellings.docx

So let me get this straight, to put everyone on seperate lease agreements you would need to fulfill about a hundred requirements that council has put in place...or you can just put everyone on the one tenancy agreement and then you have no requirements beyond the no more than 5 unrelated people rule?

So why exactly would you put in multiple tenancy agreements?

Why wouldn't you just do a normal tenancy agreement and have an anexure with the required proportion of rent from each tenant?

There's some real BS in those requirements. A 15m2 lounge room for students... they all stay in their bedrooms with a tv...why do they need a 15m2 lounge room? And why do they need a 7kg washing machine! That's huge! And 7.5m of clothes line per person... as if all 5 people are going to be washing their clothes at the same time so therefore they need a massive washing machine and a massive clothes line...do council workers understand anything about students? They wash their clothes once a month...if that!

Absolute BS.

 

[Perp]

So why exactly would you put in multiple tenancy agreements?

Why wouldn't you just do a normal tenancy agreement and have an anexure with the required proportion of rent from each tenant?

Because your tenants would be insane to agree to this; that makes them jointly and severally liable for people who are effectively strangers. So if tenant 1 leaves and trashes the place, tenants 2 through 5 - or whoever has the most money - has to pay for tenant 1's default.

When they are on separate agreements, they are only responsible for their own tenancy.

 

[Tim86]

Because your tenants would be insane to agree to this; that makes them jointly and severally liable for people who are effectively strangers. So if tenant 1 leaves and trashes the place, tenants 2 through 5 - or whoever has the most money - has to pay for tenant 1's default.

When they are on separate agreements, they are only responsible for their own tenancy.

The anexure specifies what each tenant is liable for i.e their portion of the rent. Anyway im not just making this stuff up its been tried and proven to work for years now.

 

[RPI]

http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/site...ming_accommodation_in_existing_dwellings.docx

So let me get this straight, to put everyone on seperate lease agreements you would need to fulfill about a hundred requirements that council has put in place...or you can just put everyone on the one tenancy agreement and then you have no requirements beyond the no more than 5 unrelated people rule?

So why exactly would you put in multiple tenancy agreements?

Why wouldn't you just do a normal tenancy agreement and have an anexure with the required proportion of rent from each tenant?

There's some real BS in those requirements. A 15m2 lounge room for students... they all stay in their bedrooms with a tv...why do they need a 15m2 lounge room? And why do they need a 7kg washing machine! That's huge! And 7.5m of clothes line per person... as if all 5 people are going to be washing their clothes at the same time so therefore they need a massive washing machine and a massive clothes line...do council workers understand anything about students? They wash their clothes once a month...if that!

Absolute BS.

Because if you did one agreement you wouldn't comply with this code and you would be committing a development offence. Large fines if they want to push it.

 

[Tim86]

Because if you did one agreement you wouldn't comply with this code and you would be committing a development offence. Large fines if they want to push it.

The code only applies to student accommodation from what i read. What about 5 unrelated people on the one tenancy agreement?

 

[RPI]

There is ongoing legal action in relation to this.

5 unrelated people on one tenancy agreement don't constitute a household

An individual or a group of two or more related or unrelated people who reside in the dwelling, with the common intention to live together on a long-term basis and who make common provision for food or other essentials for living.

So that is in breach of the dwelling house code.

 

[Beanie Girl]

Very significant. The new household definition requires all occupants to have a "common provision for food or other essentials for living". This is still a grey area but it's obvious to conclude that if granny wants to live independently (eg. cook her own meals, and pay her own bills) it would constitute a 2nd household.

A Dwelling House is strictly for a single household, so you'd need to apply for Dual Occupancy (2 households) for any independent occupation of the secondary dwelling. Silly really. To be classed as a secondary dwelling, it needs to be self contained and the whole purpose of a secondary dwelling is to allow the occupant(s) to live independently. So, what is the point of being self contained if the occupant is forced to share facilities with the main house under the new household definition?

I put in a submission to the new City Plan on this very issue. Council's response was that any independent occupation of a secondary dwelling (whether it's granny or not) will require a Dual Occ application. The problem there is that a Dual Occ requires 3000m2 of normal residential zoned land, so it's never going to happen.

Standby people. Brisbane City Council are about to try and convince a court that granny is unlawful in a granny flat

Can't wait to see how this one unfolds.

described in a gist what was happening to my partner - "new household definition requires all occupants to have a "common provision for food"
He said with a straight face "Looks like Brisbane City Council wants you to eat nanna."
"Since Tony Abbot is going to cut her pension anyway, you might as well eat her"

 

[H Property]

described in a gist what was happening to my partner - "new household definition requires all occupants to have a "common provision for food"
He said with a straight face "Looks like Brisbane City Council wants you to eat nanna."
"Since Tony Abbot is going to cut her pension anyway, you might as well eat her"

BCC have confirmed that "common provision for food" means a kitchen, and is not about eating arrangements.

 

[hpresident]

Any updates on this?
So I take that the idea is that (in low density areas) if I meet fire safety requirements and AO1 to AO6 of the BCC code. I am all good to go ahead and rent it to 5 different people in 5 leases?

 

[RPI]

Rumours are that this code is going to be removed or changed in an upcoming update. I would actually do a table with a column identifying how you meet the code and date and sign it. Keep it to show the use was an existing lawful use.

Do you meet mp 5.6 also.
Kitchen
eg big enough
Not tiles. Needs to be free of cracks and crevices
tiles or impervious service behind the stove and hotplate
50 l of refigerator per resident
5 l of freezer per resident

laundry
7 kg fully auto washing machine with hot and cold
7.5m clothes line per resident or a dryer


Bedroom size of 7.5m2 plus built in for single person or 11m2 for a couple

You are providing a bed with a matress and a matress protector

Meet the vermin control requirement

You have smoke alarms in every bedroom, hallway and common area (powered are better).

emergency light in each smoke alarm or emergency lighting

you supply a landline telephone.

Make sure that all your bathroom hot water taps are temp limited at 50 degrees